6 ms·

Why Twitch Needs A Competitor

36 points by ssclafani 13y ago

newsoundwave 13y ago
While I agree with the sentiment, the current "competitors" that have shown up are either equally twitchy about TOS violations [1], have abysmally poor performance in many areas of the world (again I'm referring to ustream.tv), or are basically scams[2]. They've also been pretty good about talking to people about their TOS violations and reverting bans if necessary [3]. [1] http://www.cnn.com/2012/09/04/tech/web/hugo-awards-gaiman-ustream/index.html http://www.cnn.com/2012/09/04/tech/web/hugo-awards-gaiman-us... [2] http://www.destiny.gg/n/own3d-tv-a-beginners-guide-to-being-an-asshole/ http://www.destiny.gg/n/own3d-tv-a-beginners-guide-to-being-... [3] http://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/1bqum7/just_a_warning_twitchtv_appears_to_be_having_some/ http://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/1bqum7/just... * * Random link I found by looking for twitch.tv restoring accounts. I know there have ones where it wasn't twitch.tv's fault including recently a DOTA 2/SC2 caster, I just can't remember where he posted his stuff.
- mischanix 13y ago
  The story behind [3]: http://blog.twitch.tv/2013/04/regarding-todays-assorted-incidents/ http://blog.twitch.tv/2013/04/regarding-todays-assorted-inci...
- nolok 13y ago
  > have abysmally poor performance in many areas of the world Twitch in europe still sometimes have horrible performance too. I don't know if this is a peering issue to french ISP or something, but every major tournament I watch I have to use 240p at some point or another because it lags like hell. And everytime you mention it being in their chat or reddit, you get a swarm of users telling you "no it works for me", "it's probably your bandwidth", ... I was sad when own3d closed because they always had great performance for me, some people said "but they suck in country X" but hey, that's exactly like twitch for me. Worst part is, I would glady have suscribed to tons of "720p for paying users only" starcraft 2 content if it was working.
  - newsoundwave 13y ago
    Well yeah, I get the whole 240p on twitch (I'm a little bit better - like 480p or something). I'm talking about how when I would be in the US or Korea even the lowest bitrate option refused to play past slideshow speed. It's also the only one my friends in other countries actively complain to me about (since I'm the "computer guy" for them). And yeah own3d had nice performance but it's understandably simpler to get good performance when you're not paying any of your contracts. As for your last comment, I've gone back to GOM since their video quality has gotten better over time. In relation to the article, yes it would be great if either Twitch beefed up their performance and had a clear way to contest ToS violations, but there have been quite a few competitors to Twitch and all of them have given me far more reasons to actively distrust them than to trust them over Twitch. I don't stream video games but if I did I couldn't see myself on any competitor right now. Maybe Google could try their hand at something like that? They obviously can do live streaming decently well (although Youtube's speed has decreased for me greatly in the last few months).
  - emmett 13y ago
    Yeah, this is rough for us. We want perfect global service and don't have it. There are issues in many locales, mostly because of last-mile delivery. We're doubling EU capacity now, because every time we add capacity we grow until it's all used up. Which is no compensation to you, I realize, but that's what's going on. (I'm the CEO of Twitch)
    - akama 13y ago
      This is off topic, but do you think a competitor for Twitch TV would be good for the industry as a whole and grow the market in terms of professional video gamers and tournaments beyond what Twitch could do alone?
      - emmett 13y ago
        No business really wants a competitor. And I think we're working pretty hard to grow the industry regardless. However, I recognize long term what's good for the world in general is competition, so all I have to say is: bring it on :-)
baddox 13y ago
Are there any similar services with terms that don't allow arbitrary termination?
- schiang 13y ago
  check out gxstream
artus 13y ago
This is THE thing that governments should solve. It should be illegal for companies to refuse service to anyone or offer them worse terms that someone they never did business with. Even more generally, it should be illegal to ban users from any service, and censor public speech in any way, even on private forums.
- EvanKelly 13y ago
  Are you suggesting that using a company's hosted product should be a right?
  - artus 13y ago
    Yes, if they are offering it to the general public.
    - jedberg 13y ago
      If you owned a retail store, and someone came in every day yelling and screaming and breaking things, would you say they should have the right to do so, since the store is open to the public?
    - chc 13y ago
      Why? If you really feel strongly that this is practical and everything should be allowed, you can go ahead and offer your own Nazis-and-pedophiles-welcome streaming service. I don't see why others should have their freedom of association revoked just because of your personal whims.
    - EvanKelly 13y ago
      Federal case law protects the rights of people to refuse service based on protecting business interests. LegalZoom has a nice blog post on it [0]. Unruh Civil Rights Law does prevent arbitrary discrimination though. [0]: http://www.legalzoom.com/us-law/equal-rights/right-refuse-service http://www.legalzoom.com/us-law/equal-rights/right-refuse-se...
- obviouslygreen 13y ago
LandoCalrissian 13y ago
I think we should take a step back for a second and remember that before Twitch it was largely impossible to turn video game skills into a paying career. Now many top players are able to finance their lives while still concentrating on their game. There are of course kinks that need to be worked out, but now you at least have one option, before you had zero.
- ilink 13y ago
  There were other services before twitch. Before it was shut down, Own3d tv provided a decent income for a few streamers.
  - _Caspian 13y ago
    The thing with Own3d was that for the most part its streaming service simply did not match that of Twitch. The layout and mobile support was a bit better (streams that used Own3d were far more convenient to access since they played from the browser), but the quality was lacking. Twitch, on the other hand, has focused on what matters: the stream quality. Now that there layout has been updated, they would have smoked own3d even more IMO.
  - 1123581321 13y ago
    Many streamers moved from Own3D to Twitch because Own3D was not making good on owed payments. Twitch needs competition to force it to improve its ToS, but it's been good for gaming.
- anonymoushn 13y ago
  Prior to the existence of Twitch there were at least a couple thousand people playing video games professionally. Most of these players played FPS, RTS, or MOBA (not that the term existed at the time) games competitively. I believe they still do, and that they are still not dependent on Twitch for their income.
  - usea 13y ago
    It's my understanding that the income of top professional players in some segments (fighting games, for example) has largely shifted to non-prize sources in the past few years. Being a top player will get you sponsorships and notoriety which can be leveraged into other projects like online shows, consulting jobs, etc. Sponsorships at minimum include travel expenses, but often will pay for full-time living expenses. Twitch is a not-insignificant part of it, along with youtube etc. The companies that sponsor players use the hype to get eyeballs on their own sponsors' ads. I am sorry to admit I don't have any sources for this information. It's mostly hearsay, so take it with a grain of salt.
SG- 13y ago
While competition is always good, this piece seems rather one sided, where's Twitch's comments? It sounds like someone got banned from Twitch for doing something wrong. Some examples I've seen lately: -twitch streamer pretending to be paralyzed asking for donations and getting his account banned when he was caught walking on his stream. -twitch user asking his viewers to DDoS someone he thinks is trying to DDoS him. -various twitch users showing porn on their streams. All of these users have gotten banned while the one asking for a DDoS got a one month ban.
feronull 13y ago
own3d.tv was a good competitor and they failed to be profitable
- JoeKM 13y ago
  I've always wondered why YouTube doesn't push seriously into the video game and eSport streaming business. Most streamers have YouTube channels that they advertise on Twitch. YouTube is obviously massively popular, and could possible grant more audience to eSport streamers. YouTube has streaming, but it feels like a side-project.
- aiiane 13y ago
  Except for the part where own3d was a terrible entity to do business with as a streamer (routinely late on payouts, etc).
mpgjon 13y ago
Hi All, this is a conversation near and dear to my heart, as we've been working on building a Twitch competitor for nearly two years. We're very close to having a finished product, but as we've all seen with Own3d (and many other video platforms over the years); it's take a fair amount of capital to actually launch and sustain a viable business in this space. We've thought long and hard about bootstrap launching, but we've decided that route simply doesn't allow us to offer the level of service we think you deserve. To those who think that game streaming is a goldmine of cash, I can confidently say to you that it is not. It's a high-volume, low margin business at this point. There are a few who make some cash. But most of that is a loss leader for another product. Like Riot Games - think their eSports division makes any net profit? Or do you think it's mostly an advertisement that drives players to LOL? There IS opportunity here, and an opportunity that can be good for many, as opposed to the few, but it takes a lot more than just throwing up a pre-roll video ad in front of your livestream. That's one reason we're working on some really innovative ways to help engage audiences and leverage expanded types of business models with your channels. At any rate, happy to dive into the conversation further if anyone is interested. We've also launched an online petition to help us get the attention of other venture cap and private equity investors; since this has been part of our battle for the last year. If you really want to see another competitor in the space, help us prove the market to a generation of people (financiers) who do not understand game streaming at all. http://www.change.org/petitions/vc-s-private-equity-and-angel-investors-fund-gxstream http://www.change.org/petitions/vc-s-private-equity-and-ange...? Thanks for your support!
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
joesunga 13y ago
Twitch is definitely doing something right. Non-mainstream sports should definitely see what Twitch has done with the gaming world and try to do the same with their perspective sports. ESPN does a great job covering the mainstream sports, and they have yet to capture the secondary sports market. Seems like an opportunity for someone to do.
methehack 13y ago
Now if only I could live stream myself watching movies... Or coding... :)
- SolarNet 13y ago
  Notch does pretty well at attracting viewers when he codes live.
clobber 13y ago
Putting aside the fact that articles on Business Insider are extremely sensationalized, what about Youtube or Ustream? It really wouldn't take much for Youtube to implement the rest of the features Twitch has.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]

36 points by ssclafani 13y ago

While I agree with the sentiment, the current "competitors" that have shown up are either equally twitchy about TOS violations [1], have abysmally poor performance in many areas of the world (again I'm referring to ustream.tv), or are basically scams[2]. They've also been pretty good about talking to people about their TOS violations and reverting bans if necessary [3]. [1] http://www.cnn.com/2012/09/04/tech/web/hugo-awards-gaiman-ustream/index.html http://www.cnn.com/2012/09/04/tech/web/hugo-awards-gaiman-us... [2] http://www.destiny.gg/n/own3d-tv-a-beginners-guide-to-being-an-asshole/ http://www.destiny.gg/n/own3d-tv-a-beginners-guide-to-being-... [3] http://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/1bqum7/just_a_warning_twitchtv_appears_to_be_having_some/ http://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/1bqum7/just... * * Random link I found by looking for twitch.tv restoring accounts. I know there have ones where it wasn't twitch.tv's fault including recently a DOTA 2/SC2 caster, I just can't remember where he posted his stuff.

mischanix 13y ago
The story behind [3]: http://blog.twitch.tv/2013/04/regarding-todays-assorted-incidents/ http://blog.twitch.tv/2013/04/regarding-todays-assorted-inci...
nolok 13y ago
> have abysmally poor performance in many areas of the world Twitch in europe still sometimes have horrible performance too. I don't know if this is a peering issue to french ISP or something, but every major tournament I watch I have to use 240p at some point or another because it lags like hell. And everytime you mention it being in their chat or reddit, you get a swarm of users telling you "no it works for me", "it's probably your bandwidth", ... I was sad when own3d closed because they always had great performance for me, some people said "but they suck in country X" but hey, that's exactly like twitch for me. Worst part is, I would glady have suscribed to tons of "720p for paying users only" starcraft 2 content if it was working.
- newsoundwave 13y ago
  Well yeah, I get the whole 240p on twitch (I'm a little bit better - like 480p or something). I'm talking about how when I would be in the US or Korea even the lowest bitrate option refused to play past slideshow speed. It's also the only one my friends in other countries actively complain to me about (since I'm the "computer guy" for them). And yeah own3d had nice performance but it's understandably simpler to get good performance when you're not paying any of your contracts. As for your last comment, I've gone back to GOM since their video quality has gotten better over time. In relation to the article, yes it would be great if either Twitch beefed up their performance and had a clear way to contest ToS violations, but there have been quite a few competitors to Twitch and all of them have given me far more reasons to actively distrust them than to trust them over Twitch. I don't stream video games but if I did I couldn't see myself on any competitor right now. Maybe Google could try their hand at something like that? They obviously can do live streaming decently well (although Youtube's speed has decreased for me greatly in the last few months).
- emmett 13y ago
  Yeah, this is rough for us. We want perfect global service and don't have it. There are issues in many locales, mostly because of last-mile delivery. We're doubling EU capacity now, because every time we add capacity we grow until it's all used up. Which is no compensation to you, I realize, but that's what's going on. (I'm the CEO of Twitch)
  - akama 13y ago
    This is off topic, but do you think a competitor for Twitch TV would be good for the industry as a whole and grow the market in terms of professional video gamers and tournaments beyond what Twitch could do alone?
    - emmett 13y ago
      No business really wants a competitor. And I think we're working pretty hard to grow the industry regardless. However, I recognize long term what's good for the world in general is competition, so all I have to say is: bring it on :-)

baddox 13y ago

Are there any similar services with terms that don't allow arbitrary termination?

schiang 13y ago
check out gxstream

artus 13y ago

This is THE thing that governments should solve. It should be illegal for companies to refuse service to anyone or offer them worse terms that someone they never did business with. Even more generally, it should be illegal to ban users from any service, and censor public speech in any way, even on private forums.

EvanKelly 13y ago
Are you suggesting that using a company's hosted product should be a right?
- artus 13y ago
  Yes, if they are offering it to the general public.
  - jedberg 13y ago
    If you owned a retail store, and someone came in every day yelling and screaming and breaking things, would you say they should have the right to do so, since the store is open to the public?
  - chc 13y ago
    Why? If you really feel strongly that this is practical and everything should be allowed, you can go ahead and offer your own Nazis-and-pedophiles-welcome streaming service. I don't see why others should have their freedom of association revoked just because of your personal whims.
  - EvanKelly 13y ago
    Federal case law protects the rights of people to refuse service based on protecting business interests. LegalZoom has a nice blog post on it [0]. Unruh Civil Rights Law does prevent arbitrary discrimination though. [0]: http://www.legalzoom.com/us-law/equal-rights/right-refuse-service http://www.legalzoom.com/us-law/equal-rights/right-refuse-se...
obviouslygreen 13y ago

LandoCalrissian 13y ago

I think we should take a step back for a second and remember that before Twitch it was largely impossible to turn video game skills into a paying career. Now many top players are able to finance their lives while still concentrating on their game. There are of course kinks that need to be worked out, but now you at least have one option, before you had zero.

ilink 13y ago
There were other services before twitch. Before it was shut down, Own3d tv provided a decent income for a few streamers.
- _Caspian 13y ago
  The thing with Own3d was that for the most part its streaming service simply did not match that of Twitch. The layout and mobile support was a bit better (streams that used Own3d were far more convenient to access since they played from the browser), but the quality was lacking. Twitch, on the other hand, has focused on what matters: the stream quality. Now that there layout has been updated, they would have smoked own3d even more IMO.
- 1123581321 13y ago
  Many streamers moved from Own3D to Twitch because Own3D was not making good on owed payments. Twitch needs competition to force it to improve its ToS, but it's been good for gaming.
anonymoushn 13y ago
Prior to the existence of Twitch there were at least a couple thousand people playing video games professionally. Most of these players played FPS, RTS, or MOBA (not that the term existed at the time) games competitively. I believe they still do, and that they are still not dependent on Twitch for their income.
- usea 13y ago
  It's my understanding that the income of top professional players in some segments (fighting games, for example) has largely shifted to non-prize sources in the past few years. Being a top player will get you sponsorships and notoriety which can be leveraged into other projects like online shows, consulting jobs, etc. Sponsorships at minimum include travel expenses, but often will pay for full-time living expenses. Twitch is a not-insignificant part of it, along with youtube etc. The companies that sponsor players use the hype to get eyeballs on their own sponsors' ads. I am sorry to admit I don't have any sources for this information. It's mostly hearsay, so take it with a grain of salt.

SG- 13y ago

While competition is always good, this piece seems rather one sided, where's Twitch's comments? It sounds like someone got banned from Twitch for doing something wrong. Some examples I've seen lately: -twitch streamer pretending to be paralyzed asking for donations and getting his account banned when he was caught walking on his stream. -twitch user asking his viewers to DDoS someone he thinks is trying to DDoS him. -various twitch users showing porn on their streams. All of these users have gotten banned while the one asking for a DDoS got a one month ban.

feronull 13y ago

own3d.tv was a good competitor and they failed to be profitable

JoeKM 13y ago
I've always wondered why YouTube doesn't push seriously into the video game and eSport streaming business. Most streamers have YouTube channels that they advertise on Twitch. YouTube is obviously massively popular, and could possible grant more audience to eSport streamers. YouTube has streaming, but it feels like a side-project.
aiiane 13y ago
Except for the part where own3d was a terrible entity to do business with as a streamer (routinely late on payouts, etc).

mpgjon 13y ago

Hi All, this is a conversation near and dear to my heart, as we've been working on building a Twitch competitor for nearly two years. We're very close to having a finished product, but as we've all seen with Own3d (and many other video platforms over the years); it's take a fair amount of capital to actually launch and sustain a viable business in this space. We've thought long and hard about bootstrap launching, but we've decided that route simply doesn't allow us to offer the level of service we think you deserve. To those who think that game streaming is a goldmine of cash, I can confidently say to you that it is not. It's a high-volume, low margin business at this point. There are a few who make some cash. But most of that is a loss leader for another product. Like Riot Games - think their eSports division makes any net profit? Or do you think it's mostly an advertisement that drives players to LOL? There IS opportunity here, and an opportunity that can be good for many, as opposed to the few, but it takes a lot more than just throwing up a pre-roll video ad in front of your livestream. That's one reason we're working on some really innovative ways to help engage audiences and leverage expanded types of business models with your channels. At any rate, happy to dive into the conversation further if anyone is interested. We've also launched an online petition to help us get the attention of other venture cap and private equity investors; since this has been part of our battle for the last year. If you really want to see another competitor in the space, help us prove the market to a generation of people (financiers) who do not understand game streaming at all. http://www.change.org/petitions/vc-s-private-equity-and-angel-investors-fund-gxstream http://www.change.org/petitions/vc-s-private-equity-and-ange...? Thanks for your support!

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

joesunga 13y ago

Twitch is definitely doing something right. Non-mainstream sports should definitely see what Twitch has done with the gaming world and try to do the same with their perspective sports. ESPN does a great job covering the mainstream sports, and they have yet to capture the secondary sports market. Seems like an opportunity for someone to do.

methehack 13y ago

Now if only I could live stream myself watching movies... Or coding... :)

SolarNet 13y ago
Notch does pretty well at attracting viewers when he codes live.

clobber 13y ago

Putting aside the fact that articles on Business Insider are extremely sensationalized, what about Youtube or Ustream? It really wouldn't take much for Youtube to implement the rest of the features Twitch has.

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]