13 ms·

Petition to drop charges against Kiera Wilmot

124 points by rmah 14y ago

rhizome 14y ago
What have been the most significant real-world effects of change.org petitions?
- deleted 14y ago
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- Hilyin 14y ago
  Agreed, I honestly don't think there has ever been any actual "change" occurring due to these petitions. They either are on the side of agreement with those in office, or they are not. The response is always a regurgitation of their current views on the matter.
  - rquantz 14y ago
    Honestly, the best way to make a difference with local government is either to make a credible threat of suit or just make their lives miserable for a few weeks (by publishing their email addresses and phone numbers and sicking the internet on them). I had a few altercations with my high school administrators. The first involved a student petition, the second involved formal letters from attorneys. Guess which one had more effect. Edit: nevertheless, I have signed the petition in question.
- rmah 14y ago
  While I understand (and often share) your cynicism, change.org has won some victories in the past: http://www.change.org/victories http://www.change.org/victories The level of the "victories" do vary. But, in this particular case, I think a mass expression of support for this girl could actually encourage the local DA and school reconsider moving forward with prosecution.
  - rhizome 14y ago
    So merely asking how effective they are is "cynicism," got it. Most of those victories can be chalked up to "post hoc ergo propter hoc."
    - corin_ 14y ago
      Perhaps steer clear of questioning whether he was correct to guess your meaning when following it with a line that confirms you were indeed being cynical. Not saying you are wrong to be cynical, but you are (as am I).
      - rhizome 14y ago
        Still not cynical (nor hypocritical in case that's what you're implying), and many change.org victories being post hoc instances is demonstrable.
    - raylu 14y ago
      I don't think he thinks of cynicism as a bad thing (and I don't either). It's hard to prove causation in any of these.
- deleted 14y ago
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  - fein 14y ago
    I imagine that the abstraction of the reason is probably similar to the Fight Club quote about automotive recalls: " A new car built by my company leaves somewhere traveling at 60 mph. The rear differential locks up. The car crashes and burns with everyone trapped inside. Now, should we initiate a recall? Take the number of vehicles in the field, A, multiply by the probable rate of failure, B, multiply by the average out-of-court settlement, C. A times B times C equals X. If X is less than the cost of a recall, we don't do one." It's a similar thing with politics. Just change A out for either people in the voting body or lobbying body, multiply by B, the probable percentage of A that you'll lose with a specific decision, then multiply by C, the amount of money (weight of a specific vote) that the specific entity would lose you. If X is enough money/votes to win the next election, then business as usual. Of course one could say that Obama is done after this term anyway, but I have a feeling that the PTB have their best interests in favor. edit: You've gone and deleted your post. The general gist of the question was: "What are the political forces in play causing him to change his mind about GITMO?"
- spamizbad 14y ago
  A ton of mainstream product advertisements got pulled from conservative radio after Rush Limbaugh did that whole Sandra Fluke thing. That was spearheaded by change.org.
- jmharvey 14y ago
  As I understand it, a big part of change.org's model is building a political mailing list, so they can follow up with you at election time and say, "you signed this petition that we sent to this politician, and they [did/didn't] do what you wanted." So even if the petition itself doesn't do anything, they can follow up with pressure at the ballot box.
- illuminate 14y ago
  Slactivists feeling good about themselves, primarily. I say this not to tease about the goals and causes, but just that sending individual, targeted letters to the parties involved or a dollar to the family for their legal fund would do so much more. Internet petitions do nothing and are easily ignored.
oftenwrong 14y ago
http://www.snopes.com/crime/warnings/bottlebomb.asp http://www.snopes.com/crime/warnings/bottlebomb.asp
- deleted 14y ago
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  - uvdiv 14y ago
    It describes the device she built [0], its effects, and the social context of other teenagers doing the same thing. I think it highly relevant. [0] Confirmed in a police report, http://blogs.miaminewtimes.com/riptide/2013/05/florida_school_responds_to_cri.php http://blogs.miaminewtimes.com/riptide/2013/05/florida_schoo... (update: actual report is http://www.scribd.com/doc/138927259/Wilmot-Arrest http://www.scribd.com/doc/138927259/Wilmot-Arrest)
  - oftenwrong 14y ago
    I was not familiar with this type of explosive device, and this one one of the first things I found. I posted it because it has some good information including: - a video of one being detonated - information on the dangers of using these devices - some historical background - a list of cases where this type of explosive was found direct video link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbaiCdX1XWc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbaiCdX1XWc
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- angersock 14y ago
  What ever happened to just dry ice and water? Drano...really? Kids these days. :\
  - jlgreco 14y ago
    Where I grew up local stores would not sell either dry ice or "the works" (the favored brand, apparently) to kids. The effect is the same, which you choose is probably just a matter of which is available.
dccoolgai 14y ago
Signed...wish there was some way to donate to a scholarship fund or something for her...anyone know?
- mindstab 14y ago
  yes actually, I'd think about donating except that what would the US gov think of people donating money to a bomber? we all might get a check in our files for supporting terrorism... :(
  - CamperBob2 14y ago
    I'm already on some list somewhere for donating to Wikileaks, I'm sure. In for a penny, in for a pound.
  - SoftwareMaven 14y ago
    That would be good. Everybody should strive to get that check next to their name. Then it becomes a useless bit of information.
- jjh42 14y ago
  This is great idea.
mindstab 14y ago
I imagine arresting teenagers and throwing them in jail for practising chemistry will continue to help the US's already stellar rankings in science compared to other nations...
akavi 14y ago
In the interest of balance, I'd like to point out that Ms. Wilmot was almost certainly intending to make an explosive (A weak one, but one nonetheless). Ie, this was not simply a science experiment gone wrong and she was not just "practicing chemistry". And intentionally creating an explosive on school grounds definitely merits punishment. That said, felony charges are clearly ludicrous (The set of actions a teenager could commit, barring actual malice, that merit a felony charge is in my mind vanishingly small).
- rquantz 14y ago
  Agreed, it seems like some kind of punishment should be in order. Like detention. The fact that the school principal has come to her defense suggests that people who were actually there didn't feel threatened.
- jlgreco 14y ago
  > "intending to make an explosive" That is a meaningless statement by itself, and "making an explosion" does not merit punishment in and of itself. You may as well say "Stan was clearly intending to make a fire (A small one, but one nonetheless). ...intentionally creating a fire on school grounds definitely merits punishment)" What do we mean by fire? Did he set his desk ablaze, or did he light a wooden splint? "He intentionally set a fire" gives us no basis to make a blanket judgement. Explosions do not inherently merit punishment, just as fires do not. The massive range of intended harm and magnitude that could be encompassed by the general description "explosion" or "fire" means that these acts cover everything deserving of "a stern look from the teacher" to "lock them away and throw away the key". Edit to add: When I was in 10th grade my physics class was making alka-seltzer rockets in the football field. A few of us threw a bunch into a 12-oz pop bottle and blew it up. We got an eye-roll from our teacher; it wasn't even considered worth a comment.
  - Zimahl 14y ago
    I'm not sure fire is a great example. Fire can get out of hand and grow. Just as I don't want you playing with matches in my house, you probably shouldn't be playing with matches in school. In the end, it all comes down to intent. If you lit some paper on fire and threw it in a trashcan to cause a disturbance that's an issue and a serious one. I am having trouble finding a good reason to light a fire in a school other than to light a Bunsen burner. shrug The problem with an IED (perfectly fine name for what was made) is that it's affects are much less controllable. Many could be hurt and very quickly. I think it might warrant a very stern response and possibly legal punishment. Once again, to me it somewhat comes down to intent, although with IEDs I don't think the law really cares.
guelo 14y ago
The police report* says it was Assistant State Attorney Tammy Glotfelty that initially came up with the two felony charges. * http://www.scribd.com/doc/138927259/Wilmot-Arrest http://www.scribd.com/doc/138927259/Wilmot-Arrest
- CoachRufus87 14y ago
  Just last week, this ASA decided not to prosecute a teenager named Taylor Richardson who accidentally shot and killed his younger brother with a BB gun.
  - Zimahl 14y ago
    And how is that relevant?
    - CamperBob2 14y ago
      What dog do you have in this particular fight?
      - Zimahl 14y ago
        Other than the discourse that is usually followed on HN, comments typically need to be relevant to the conversation. An accidental shooting (with no link to any source BTW) is completely irrelevant to a bomb going off at school. The accidental shooting wouldn't even be relevant to a school shooting. The only link to either is a prosecutor that is deciding on the charges, which is again irrelevant.
        CoachRufus87 14y ago
        We wouldn't be having this conversation had this prosecutor made a different decision.
    - CoachRufus87 14y ago
      Do I really need to explain it? According to this attorney, accidentally setting off a small explosion that results in no physical harm being done warrants a felony while murder doesn't even warrant a slap on the wrist. It* baffles me.
Zimahl 14y ago
Does anyone have any links to better articles on this situation? I feel like we've only heard one side of this from the media. Now, the media could just be portraying the truth or they could be distorting the facts. Here are the questions I've yet heard answered: The actions were performed before school started (apparently). I call them 'actions' for a specific reason. Were these actions sponsored by a teacher? Were these actions an actual experiment? Were these actions performed within a science lab or somewhere else on school grounds? Were these actions associated with any curriculum the student was studying at the time? Right now I feel that this could have very well be the scientific community rallying around someone who could've been doing something very dangerous that wasn't sanctioned by the school. I would love some answers so I could know whether the charge is fair or not.
- pnathan 14y ago
  From what I can tell, much of chemistry is highly dangerous. The only real question, afaict, is whether the person knows how to correctly handle the danger. I absolutely am OK with students doing things on school grounds not sponsored by a teacher, not an actual experiment, and generally faffing about in the name of curiosity and learning. Schools shouldn't be running on a whitelist principle. IMO, the only reason this student should be given a felony charge is if she was planning to perform a dangerous detonation with malicious intent to harm. Even if she was being stupid and ignorant and planned to scare her friends, no harm was caused. Harmless foolishness should not be a felony... harmless learning even less so!
  - Zimahl 14y ago
    I absolutely am OK with students doing things on school grounds not sponsored by a teacher, not an actual experiment, and generally faffing about in the name of curiosity and learning. Really? I mean, it would've been OK if she did this in the middle of a cafeteria during lunch? And, yes, much of chemistry is highly dangerous and that's the reason it is done in a lab with fume hoods and safety equipment. MO, the only reason this student should be given a felony charge is if she was planning to perform a dangerous detonation with malicious intent to harm. The reason why I asked for more information is because we don't really know whether or not this wasn't her intent. Was she being bullied and was going to do this to someone else? I have a hard time associating this with 'science' because the narrative seems so one-sided.
sultezdukes 14y ago
We have a hyper-sensitive populace and so-called educators and "authorities" that are continually trying to nanny-fy the U.S. Thirty years ago something like this would have been laughed at as jr. mad scientist kid doing what jr. mad scientist kids do. Do they even sell those little chemistry labs in a box that you could buy 30 or so years ago, or has "homeland security" deemed that dangerous?
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- sehugg 14y ago
  They still sell them, but everything in them must be edible (seriously): http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2012/12/27/do-modern-no-chemical-chemistry-kits-for-kids-take-the-fun-out-of-science/# http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2012/12/27/do-modern-no-chem...
jack-r-abbit 14y ago
Why do they just gloss over the location of this "experiment"? Was it in the science lab? doesn't sound like it. Was it out in the school yard? sounds like it. Was it being supervised by a teacher? nope. Was it assigned by a teacher? doesn't sound like it. I think context matters. I can think a few bad things to do that could simply be labeled as an "experiment" when you get caught. I hate that we have two such extremes. On one end we have this hyper-militant, zero tolerance agenda that turns every little thing into a felony (kindergartners getting kicked out for gun shaped finger pointing). On the other side we have hyper sensitive, rights agenda that wants to let little billy express his creativity even if that means a few bottle bombs go off on school grounds once in a while. Is this girl a felon? hell no. what a stupid over reaction. But let's not pretend she didn't do anything wrong.
- guard-of-terra 14y ago
  The only result of you "not pretending she didn't do anything wrong" is she becoming a felon. You never support wrongful accusation on the matters that the person accused is guilty of "something". That's what gets the person pronounced guilty and now you share this sin and is going to rot in hell and everybody loses: you, the society, the wrongfully accused.
  - jack-r-abbit 14y ago
    I said the felony was an overreaction. Your statement really confuses me. Are you saying there is only two outcomes: 1) she suffers 0 punishment or 2) she is a felon Surely there is something in the middle.
    - guard-of-terra 14y ago
      No there isn't unfortunately. Courts do not work that way. They either let you go or you suffer fixed punishment not necessarily related to severity of your crime. That's what killed Socrates.
      - jack-r-abbit 14y ago
amattn 14y ago
Petitions aren't as effective as campaigns to elect the opponents of those mentioned in the petition. Even if you fail to prevent reelection, you have a better chance of changing the behavior of the incumbents.
seles 14y ago
I would guess that what she was doing was causing the bottle to pop by doing a chemical reaction inside it that creates lots of gas as a by product of the chemical reaction, enough to cause a significant increase in pressure until the bottle pops. This is actually something that kids did when I was in high school 10+ years ago (although never at school or during school hours). I don't think it is a good thing for kids to be doing, but I do think authorities are over reacting (pun intended), it is not a real explosion or bomb, just a bottle popping. However I do think someone could get hurt if they were right next to it when it pops.
noonespecial 14y ago
We're getting awfully close to an upper class imposing lifelong penalties on lower class members for stepping out of line. A felony is a lifelong handicap to the working class. How much longer until we're (figuratively) cutting off the hands of orphans for stealing loaves of bread?
- JoeKM 14y ago
  Relevant: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School-to-prison_pipeline http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School-to-prison_pipeline
- bconway 14y ago
  Which teachers and administrators at the school do you feel are a part of this "upper class?" There are certainly no millionaires handing down decrees at the schools near me.
  - tomjen3 13y ago
    That is because they are the upper classes in terms of power, not money (there is some overlap, but not as much as there have been, historically.
tokenadult 14y ago
I think the charges are ridiculous. But I also think Hacker News can do better for content than hosting a link to every change.org petition that comes by, as the great majority of change.org petitions are a lot more ridiculous than this petition. And even when the petition urges a sensible position, the petition is almost never the best means to achieve the desired result. From the Hacker News guidelines: "Off-Topic: Most stories about politics, or crime, or sports, unless they're evidence of some interesting new phenomenon. Videos of pratfalls or disasters, or cute animal pictures. If they'd cover it on TV news, it's probably off-topic." This story has been adequately covered by the TV news and by news outlets all over the world. The petition doesn't add any "gratifies one's intellectual curiosity" value to the Hacker News community.
- jlgreco 14y ago
  I'd normally agree, but I think the vilification of chemistry is a subject of interest to at least the general "nerd" community. Another example in the same theme: http://science.slashdot.org/story/07/10/31/2256206/anti-terrorism-and-the-death-of-the-chemistry-set http://science.slashdot.org/story/07/10/31/2256206/anti-terr...
- JoeKM 14y ago
  Please don't submit comments complaining that a submission is inappropriate for the site. If you think something is spam or offtopic, flag it by going to its page and clicking on the "flag" link. (Not all users will see this; there is a karma threshold.) If you flag something, please don't also comment that you did. If an article is on the front page it's because the community wants it on the front page.
joelgrus 14y ago
Like everyone else, I don't think this should result in a felony. But (apparently) unlike everyone else, I don't think it's particularly appropriate to build a small bomb at school, and I am pretty skeptical of the "I was just doing a science experiment" explanation. I mean, when I was a kid we used to shoot stuff (with a pellet gun) and blow stuff up (with fireworks) because shooting stuff and blowing stuff up was cool. But we didn't try to pretend we were "doing science", and we were smart enough to do it in my backyard, not at school.
- Anechoic 14y ago
  we were smart enough to do it in my backyard Does she have a backyard?
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124 points by rmah 14y ago

rhizome 14y ago

What have been the most significant real-world effects of change.org petitions?

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Hilyin 14y ago
Agreed, I honestly don't think there has ever been any actual "change" occurring due to these petitions. They either are on the side of agreement with those in office, or they are not. The response is always a regurgitation of their current views on the matter.
- rquantz 14y ago
  Honestly, the best way to make a difference with local government is either to make a credible threat of suit or just make their lives miserable for a few weeks (by publishing their email addresses and phone numbers and sicking the internet on them). I had a few altercations with my high school administrators. The first involved a student petition, the second involved formal letters from attorneys. Guess which one had more effect. Edit: nevertheless, I have signed the petition in question.
rmah 14y ago
While I understand (and often share) your cynicism, change.org has won some victories in the past: http://www.change.org/victories http://www.change.org/victories The level of the "victories" do vary. But, in this particular case, I think a mass expression of support for this girl could actually encourage the local DA and school reconsider moving forward with prosecution.
- rhizome 14y ago
  So merely asking how effective they are is "cynicism," got it. Most of those victories can be chalked up to "post hoc ergo propter hoc."
  - corin_ 14y ago
    Perhaps steer clear of questioning whether he was correct to guess your meaning when following it with a line that confirms you were indeed being cynical. Not saying you are wrong to be cynical, but you are (as am I).
    - rhizome 14y ago
      Still not cynical (nor hypocritical in case that's what you're implying), and many change.org victories being post hoc instances is demonstrable.
  - raylu 14y ago
    I don't think he thinks of cynicism as a bad thing (and I don't either). It's hard to prove causation in any of these.
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- fein 14y ago
  I imagine that the abstraction of the reason is probably similar to the Fight Club quote about automotive recalls: " A new car built by my company leaves somewhere traveling at 60 mph. The rear differential locks up. The car crashes and burns with everyone trapped inside. Now, should we initiate a recall? Take the number of vehicles in the field, A, multiply by the probable rate of failure, B, multiply by the average out-of-court settlement, C. A times B times C equals X. If X is less than the cost of a recall, we don't do one." It's a similar thing with politics. Just change A out for either people in the voting body or lobbying body, multiply by B, the probable percentage of A that you'll lose with a specific decision, then multiply by C, the amount of money (weight of a specific vote) that the specific entity would lose you. If X is enough money/votes to win the next election, then business as usual. Of course one could say that Obama is done after this term anyway, but I have a feeling that the PTB have their best interests in favor. edit: You've gone and deleted your post. The general gist of the question was: "What are the political forces in play causing him to change his mind about GITMO?"
spamizbad 14y ago
A ton of mainstream product advertisements got pulled from conservative radio after Rush Limbaugh did that whole Sandra Fluke thing. That was spearheaded by change.org.
jmharvey 14y ago
As I understand it, a big part of change.org's model is building a political mailing list, so they can follow up with you at election time and say, "you signed this petition that we sent to this politician, and they [did/didn't] do what you wanted." So even if the petition itself doesn't do anything, they can follow up with pressure at the ballot box.
illuminate 14y ago
Slactivists feeling good about themselves, primarily. I say this not to tease about the goals and causes, but just that sending individual, targeted letters to the parties involved or a dollar to the family for their legal fund would do so much more. Internet petitions do nothing and are easily ignored.

oftenwrong 14y ago

http://www.snopes.com/crime/warnings/bottlebomb.asp http://www.snopes.com/crime/warnings/bottlebomb.asp

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- uvdiv 14y ago
  It describes the device she built [0], its effects, and the social context of other teenagers doing the same thing. I think it highly relevant. [0] Confirmed in a police report, http://blogs.miaminewtimes.com/riptide/2013/05/florida_school_responds_to_cri.php http://blogs.miaminewtimes.com/riptide/2013/05/florida_schoo... (update: actual report is http://www.scribd.com/doc/138927259/Wilmot-Arrest http://www.scribd.com/doc/138927259/Wilmot-Arrest)
- oftenwrong 14y ago
  I was not familiar with this type of explosive device, and this one one of the first things I found. I posted it because it has some good information including: - a video of one being detonated - information on the dangers of using these devices - some historical background - a list of cases where this type of explosive was found direct video link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbaiCdX1XWc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbaiCdX1XWc
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angersock 14y ago
What ever happened to just dry ice and water? Drano...really? Kids these days. :\
- jlgreco 14y ago
  Where I grew up local stores would not sell either dry ice or "the works" (the favored brand, apparently) to kids. The effect is the same, which you choose is probably just a matter of which is available.

dccoolgai 14y ago

Signed...wish there was some way to donate to a scholarship fund or something for her...anyone know?

mindstab 14y ago
yes actually, I'd think about donating except that what would the US gov think of people donating money to a bomber? we all might get a check in our files for supporting terrorism... :(
- CamperBob2 14y ago
  I'm already on some list somewhere for donating to Wikileaks, I'm sure. In for a penny, in for a pound.
- SoftwareMaven 14y ago
  That would be good. Everybody should strive to get that check next to their name. Then it becomes a useless bit of information.
jjh42 14y ago
This is great idea.

mindstab 14y ago

I imagine arresting teenagers and throwing them in jail for practising chemistry will continue to help the US's already stellar rankings in science compared to other nations...

akavi 14y ago

In the interest of balance, I'd like to point out that Ms. Wilmot was almost certainly intending to make an explosive (A weak one, but one nonetheless). Ie, this was not simply a science experiment gone wrong and she was not just "practicing chemistry". And intentionally creating an explosive on school grounds definitely merits punishment. That said, felony charges are clearly ludicrous (The set of actions a teenager could commit, barring actual malice, that merit a felony charge is in my mind vanishingly small).

rquantz 14y ago
Agreed, it seems like some kind of punishment should be in order. Like detention. The fact that the school principal has come to her defense suggests that people who were actually there didn't feel threatened.
jlgreco 14y ago
> "intending to make an explosive" That is a meaningless statement by itself, and "making an explosion" does not merit punishment in and of itself. You may as well say "Stan was clearly intending to make a fire (A small one, but one nonetheless). ...intentionally creating a fire on school grounds definitely merits punishment)" What do we mean by fire? Did he set his desk ablaze, or did he light a wooden splint? "He intentionally set a fire" gives us no basis to make a blanket judgement. Explosions do not inherently merit punishment, just as fires do not. The massive range of intended harm and magnitude that could be encompassed by the general description "explosion" or "fire" means that these acts cover everything deserving of "a stern look from the teacher" to "lock them away and throw away the key". Edit to add: When I was in 10th grade my physics class was making alka-seltzer rockets in the football field. A few of us threw a bunch into a 12-oz pop bottle and blew it up. We got an eye-roll from our teacher; it wasn't even considered worth a comment.
- Zimahl 14y ago
  I'm not sure fire is a great example. Fire can get out of hand and grow. Just as I don't want you playing with matches in my house, you probably shouldn't be playing with matches in school. In the end, it all comes down to intent. If you lit some paper on fire and threw it in a trashcan to cause a disturbance that's an issue and a serious one. I am having trouble finding a good reason to light a fire in a school other than to light a Bunsen burner. shrug The problem with an IED (perfectly fine name for what was made) is that it's affects are much less controllable. Many could be hurt and very quickly. I think it might warrant a very stern response and possibly legal punishment. Once again, to me it somewhat comes down to intent, although with IEDs I don't think the law really cares.

guelo 14y ago

The police report* says it was Assistant State Attorney Tammy Glotfelty that initially came up with the two felony charges. * http://www.scribd.com/doc/138927259/Wilmot-Arrest http://www.scribd.com/doc/138927259/Wilmot-Arrest

CoachRufus87 14y ago
Just last week, this ASA decided not to prosecute a teenager named Taylor Richardson who accidentally shot and killed his younger brother with a BB gun.
- Zimahl 14y ago
  And how is that relevant?
  - CamperBob2 14y ago
    What dog do you have in this particular fight?
    - Zimahl 14y ago
      Other than the discourse that is usually followed on HN, comments typically need to be relevant to the conversation. An accidental shooting (with no link to any source BTW) is completely irrelevant to a bomb going off at school. The accidental shooting wouldn't even be relevant to a school shooting. The only link to either is a prosecutor that is deciding on the charges, which is again irrelevant.
      - CoachRufus87 14y ago
        We wouldn't be having this conversation had this prosecutor made a different decision.
  - CoachRufus87 14y ago
    Do I really need to explain it? According to this attorney, accidentally setting off a small explosion that results in no physical harm being done warrants a felony while murder doesn't even warrant a slap on the wrist. It* baffles me.

Zimahl 14y ago

Does anyone have any links to better articles on this situation? I feel like we've only heard one side of this from the media. Now, the media could just be portraying the truth or they could be distorting the facts. Here are the questions I've yet heard answered: The actions were performed before school started (apparently). I call them 'actions' for a specific reason. Were these actions sponsored by a teacher? Were these actions an actual experiment? Were these actions performed within a science lab or somewhere else on school grounds? Were these actions associated with any curriculum the student was studying at the time? Right now I feel that this could have very well be the scientific community rallying around someone who could've been doing something very dangerous that wasn't sanctioned by the school. I would love some answers so I could know whether the charge is fair or not.

pnathan 14y ago
From what I can tell, much of chemistry is highly dangerous. The only real question, afaict, is whether the person knows how to correctly handle the danger. I absolutely am OK with students doing things on school grounds not sponsored by a teacher, not an actual experiment, and generally faffing about in the name of curiosity and learning. Schools shouldn't be running on a whitelist principle. IMO, the only reason this student should be given a felony charge is if she was planning to perform a dangerous detonation with malicious intent to harm. Even if she was being stupid and ignorant and planned to scare her friends, no harm was caused. Harmless foolishness should not be a felony... harmless learning even less so!
- Zimahl 14y ago
  I absolutely am OK with students doing things on school grounds not sponsored by a teacher, not an actual experiment, and generally faffing about in the name of curiosity and learning. Really? I mean, it would've been OK if she did this in the middle of a cafeteria during lunch? And, yes, much of chemistry is highly dangerous and that's the reason it is done in a lab with fume hoods and safety equipment. MO, the only reason this student should be given a felony charge is if she was planning to perform a dangerous detonation with malicious intent to harm. The reason why I asked for more information is because we don't really know whether or not this wasn't her intent. Was she being bullied and was going to do this to someone else? I have a hard time associating this with 'science' because the narrative seems so one-sided.

sultezdukes 14y ago

We have a hyper-sensitive populace and so-called educators and "authorities" that are continually trying to nanny-fy the U.S. Thirty years ago something like this would have been laughed at as jr. mad scientist kid doing what jr. mad scientist kids do. Do they even sell those little chemistry labs in a box that you could buy 30 or so years ago, or has "homeland security" deemed that dangerous?

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sehugg 14y ago
They still sell them, but everything in them must be edible (seriously): http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2012/12/27/do-modern-no-chemical-chemistry-kits-for-kids-take-the-fun-out-of-science/# http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2012/12/27/do-modern-no-chem...

jack-r-abbit 14y ago

Why do they just gloss over the location of this "experiment"? Was it in the science lab? doesn't sound like it. Was it out in the school yard? sounds like it. Was it being supervised by a teacher? nope. Was it assigned by a teacher? doesn't sound like it. I think context matters. I can think a few bad things to do that could simply be labeled as an "experiment" when you get caught. I hate that we have two such extremes. On one end we have this hyper-militant, zero tolerance agenda that turns every little thing into a felony (kindergartners getting kicked out for gun shaped finger pointing). On the other side we have hyper sensitive, rights agenda that wants to let little billy express his creativity even if that means a few bottle bombs go off on school grounds once in a while. Is this girl a felon? hell no. what a stupid over reaction. But let's not pretend she didn't do anything wrong.

guard-of-terra 14y ago
The only result of you "not pretending she didn't do anything wrong" is she becoming a felon. You never support wrongful accusation on the matters that the person accused is guilty of "something". That's what gets the person pronounced guilty and now you share this sin and is going to rot in hell and everybody loses: you, the society, the wrongfully accused.
- jack-r-abbit 14y ago
  I said the felony was an overreaction. Your statement really confuses me. Are you saying there is only two outcomes: 1) she suffers 0 punishment or 2) she is a felon Surely there is something in the middle.
  - guard-of-terra 14y ago
    No there isn't unfortunately. Courts do not work that way. They either let you go or you suffer fixed punishment not necessarily related to severity of your crime. That's what killed Socrates.
    - jack-r-abbit 14y ago

amattn 14y ago

Petitions aren't as effective as campaigns to elect the opponents of those mentioned in the petition. Even if you fail to prevent reelection, you have a better chance of changing the behavior of the incumbents.

seles 14y ago

I would guess that what she was doing was causing the bottle to pop by doing a chemical reaction inside it that creates lots of gas as a by product of the chemical reaction, enough to cause a significant increase in pressure until the bottle pops. This is actually something that kids did when I was in high school 10+ years ago (although never at school or during school hours). I don't think it is a good thing for kids to be doing, but I do think authorities are over reacting (pun intended), it is not a real explosion or bomb, just a bottle popping. However I do think someone could get hurt if they were right next to it when it pops.

noonespecial 14y ago

We're getting awfully close to an upper class imposing lifelong penalties on lower class members for stepping out of line. A felony is a lifelong handicap to the working class. How much longer until we're (figuratively) cutting off the hands of orphans for stealing loaves of bread?

JoeKM 14y ago
Relevant: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School-to-prison_pipeline http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School-to-prison_pipeline
bconway 14y ago
Which teachers and administrators at the school do you feel are a part of this "upper class?" There are certainly no millionaires handing down decrees at the schools near me.
- tomjen3 13y ago
  That is because they are the upper classes in terms of power, not money (there is some overlap, but not as much as there have been, historically.

tokenadult 14y ago

I think the charges are ridiculous. But I also think Hacker News can do better for content than hosting a link to every change.org petition that comes by, as the great majority of change.org petitions are a lot more ridiculous than this petition. And even when the petition urges a sensible position, the petition is almost never the best means to achieve the desired result. From the Hacker News guidelines: "Off-Topic: Most stories about politics, or crime, or sports, unless they're evidence of some interesting new phenomenon. Videos of pratfalls or disasters, or cute animal pictures. If they'd cover it on TV news, it's probably off-topic." This story has been adequately covered by the TV news and by news outlets all over the world. The petition doesn't add any "gratifies one's intellectual curiosity" value to the Hacker News community.

jlgreco 14y ago
I'd normally agree, but I think the vilification of chemistry is a subject of interest to at least the general "nerd" community. Another example in the same theme: http://science.slashdot.org/story/07/10/31/2256206/anti-terrorism-and-the-death-of-the-chemistry-set http://science.slashdot.org/story/07/10/31/2256206/anti-terr...
JoeKM 14y ago
Please don't submit comments complaining that a submission is inappropriate for the site. If you think something is spam or offtopic, flag it by going to its page and clicking on the "flag" link. (Not all users will see this; there is a karma threshold.) If you flag something, please don't also comment that you did. If an article is on the front page it's because the community wants it on the front page.

joelgrus 14y ago

Like everyone else, I don't think this should result in a felony. But (apparently) unlike everyone else, I don't think it's particularly appropriate to build a small bomb at school, and I am pretty skeptical of the "I was just doing a science experiment" explanation. I mean, when I was a kid we used to shoot stuff (with a pellet gun) and blow stuff up (with fireworks) because shooting stuff and blowing stuff up was cool. But we didn't try to pretend we were "doing science", and we were smart enough to do it in my backyard, not at school.

Anechoic 14y ago
we were smart enough to do it in my backyard Does she have a backyard?

deleted 14y ago

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