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How many companies that tout flexible work schedules actually allow them? In my mind, a flexible work schedule should mean somewhere in the realm of 35-40 hours

How many companies that tout flexible work schedules actually allow them? In my mind, a flexible work schedule should mean somewhere in the realm of 35-40 hours a week, with those expected occasional 41-60 hr spikes before a deadline. When I talked to a recruiter recently, though, I asked them about their flexible work schedule. What they said was kind of horrifying: "Oh yeah, we're TOTALLY flexible! When there's a deadline due, we all work 60+ hours, but there are SOME weeks when we literally struggle to make our required 40." Like, what? A flexible work schedule now means choosing between unpaid overtime and MORE unpaid overtime? GEE THANKS!

mjewkes 14y ago
Paying an hourly rate solves these problems. Our project managers discourage long work weeks because they add cost without delivering proportional value. Work weeks tend to be in the 20-25 hour range. We compensate by hiring about 30% more devs than average. The main disadvantage comes when a dev (often with a unique skillset) "owns" a particularly challenging piece of the project. Otherwise it works well.
- rmrfrmrf 14y ago
  If you're working for a new company, this might be true. However, many established companies (like the one I work for now) have fewer benefits for hourly employees, not to mention the pay ceilings are much lower than salary. Paying hourly also has a lot of annoying caveats to it. Should I be clocked in for work-related functions? What about ones where I'm expected to be there but it's from 6pm-8pm at a restaurant (and I'm already working 40+ hours with my boss getting hounded for excessive overtime pay)? Does this party at 1pm count as my government mandated lunch break? How closely am I being watched to make sure I'm working "efficiently"? Point being, hourlies usually end up being treated as second-class citizens one way or another, and it becomes even more apparent when hourly employees and salaried employees work together.
  - VLM 14y ago
    Being treated with respect as a human being is a strange way to describe being treated as a second class citizen (Been there done that, on both sides of the argument BTW, and hourly was much more professional, much more humane) The answer to your questions BTW are yes, yes, yes if optional no if not, and depends solely on how paranoid the boss is and has nothing whatsoever to do with how finance pays you. The first three questions are pretty simple to figure out on your own. Did the boss tell you to do it, and will it show up on your review if you don't complete that requirement? Then you get paid, duh. I would agree with your last line, when I was hourly they treated salaried coworkers literally worse than slaves, not even as well as property is treated. Horrific.
    - rmrfrmrf 14y ago
      It would seem that we've had different experiences.
      - mjewkes 14y ago
        Ya - this sort of thing only makes sense if its part of a general worker-focused culture. We're also not paying wages, but hourly credits towards profit sharing. The whole context is important.
    - skrebbel 14y ago
      > The answer to your questions BTW are yes, yes, yes if optional no if not Oh come on. Did you write that comment with the intent of it being read?
  - rdl 14y ago
    There are some hourly people who make more than salaries employers ("consultants" vs. "contractors", i.e. people hired for particular skill or experience vs. to fill a role, generally). There are some places where pretty much everyone but the very top management is some kind of hourly-billed contractor or consultant, which seems weird. In practice there are usually client and contracting firm cultural solutions to the ambiguous billing situations. Generally the thing to avoid is giving people unaccounted-for discounts; it's better to bill for more time but then give an explicit discount, or at least to make it clear you're not billing for something, vs. just silently not charging for things -- otherwise it is taken for granted and expected.
lsc 14y ago
>When I talked to a recruiter recently, though, I asked them about their flexible work schedule. I have /never/ talked to a recruiter who knew anything about how the actual company worked. And how would they? In my experience? how many hours you are expected to work is a complex negotiation that depends a lot on how important you are to the team, and how effective you are perceived as being. This changes dynamically, too. get something really cool done during the slow times? yeah, slack for a week; nobody will whine. Screw it up during crunch time? you better show up before the boss and leave after the boss for a few weeks. (the second one can be dangerous... I mean, if you are screwing up due to overwork, then having you work more.... but that's the way it is.)
- rmrfrmrf 14y ago
  Sorry, recruiter was the wrong word. This person was recruiting people, but they were a developer on the web team talking about their experience in the workplace.
31reasons 14y ago
I truly believe Programmers should never get a "job". If you are not skilled at all they are really overpaying you and if you have any skill at all, they are really underpaying you. I wish a day when all programmers just work as consultants and paid of every hour they work. Programmers should be treated more like artists or actors.
- Joeri 14y ago
  There is more value to programming than what it puts in your bank account though. If you wish to build and be part of a truly engaging product, you have to engage for the long haul with a codebase, on the order of years. That means either (A) you make your own product (and are responsible for your own business strategy, accounting and sales), or (B) you get into a fixed contract with some employer (where due to the long term relationship they will be careful to restrict what they pay). In scenario (A) you will not spend all your day programming. You will have to care about the business parts. If you're not cut out for those parts, even if you end up making lots of money, you will probably not be happy. In scenario (B) you are more likely to be able to spend more time programming, with less overhead to worry about, but this depends heavily on the employer, so you may end up performing several false starts or walking away from an employer/employee relationship. If an employer accepts you, you will most likely not be paid what your time is worth, but this is a willing exchange for not having to care about the non-technical parts of the story. Is there a scenario C? If there is I've not yet discovered it.
  - hispanic 14y ago
    Yes, there is. I've worked as a paid-by-the-hour contractor for a single client for years at a time. I've done this for three different clients - for 4 years, 2 and 1/2 years, and (my current client) 3 and 1/2 years. In my current role, I serve as dev lead and have significant input with regard to strategic direction of the project. I might be an outlier and my experience may not be shared by many, but I'm evidence that scenario C exists.
- snowwrestler 14y ago
  Consultants absolutely do not get paid for every hour they work. Time spent finding new clients, for example, is totally unpaid. And most consultants need to spend a fair amount of time doing this. Ongoing training and education time are also totally unpaid. Clients hire you to solve problems and go away--they won't invest in you like they would an employee.

mjewkes 14y ago

Paying an hourly rate solves these problems. Our project managers discourage long work weeks because they add cost without delivering proportional value. Work weeks tend to be in the 20-25 hour range. We compensate by hiring about 30% more devs than average. The main disadvantage comes when a dev (often with a unique skillset) "owns" a particularly challenging piece of the project. Otherwise it works well.

rmrfrmrf 14y ago
If you're working for a new company, this might be true. However, many established companies (like the one I work for now) have fewer benefits for hourly employees, not to mention the pay ceilings are much lower than salary. Paying hourly also has a lot of annoying caveats to it. Should I be clocked in for work-related functions? What about ones where I'm expected to be there but it's from 6pm-8pm at a restaurant (and I'm already working 40+ hours with my boss getting hounded for excessive overtime pay)? Does this party at 1pm count as my government mandated lunch break? How closely am I being watched to make sure I'm working "efficiently"? Point being, hourlies usually end up being treated as second-class citizens one way or another, and it becomes even more apparent when hourly employees and salaried employees work together.
- VLM 14y ago
  Being treated with respect as a human being is a strange way to describe being treated as a second class citizen (Been there done that, on both sides of the argument BTW, and hourly was much more professional, much more humane) The answer to your questions BTW are yes, yes, yes if optional no if not, and depends solely on how paranoid the boss is and has nothing whatsoever to do with how finance pays you. The first three questions are pretty simple to figure out on your own. Did the boss tell you to do it, and will it show up on your review if you don't complete that requirement? Then you get paid, duh. I would agree with your last line, when I was hourly they treated salaried coworkers literally worse than slaves, not even as well as property is treated. Horrific.
  - rmrfrmrf 14y ago
    It would seem that we've had different experiences.
    - mjewkes 14y ago
      Ya - this sort of thing only makes sense if its part of a general worker-focused culture. We're also not paying wages, but hourly credits towards profit sharing. The whole context is important.
  - skrebbel 14y ago
    > The answer to your questions BTW are yes, yes, yes if optional no if not Oh come on. Did you write that comment with the intent of it being read?
- rdl 14y ago
  There are some hourly people who make more than salaries employers ("consultants" vs. "contractors", i.e. people hired for particular skill or experience vs. to fill a role, generally). There are some places where pretty much everyone but the very top management is some kind of hourly-billed contractor or consultant, which seems weird. In practice there are usually client and contracting firm cultural solutions to the ambiguous billing situations. Generally the thing to avoid is giving people unaccounted-for discounts; it's better to bill for more time but then give an explicit discount, or at least to make it clear you're not billing for something, vs. just silently not charging for things -- otherwise it is taken for granted and expected.

lsc 14y ago

>When I talked to a recruiter recently, though, I asked them about their flexible work schedule. I have /never/ talked to a recruiter who knew anything about how the actual company worked. And how would they? In my experience? how many hours you are expected to work is a complex negotiation that depends a lot on how important you are to the team, and how effective you are perceived as being. This changes dynamically, too. get something really cool done during the slow times? yeah, slack for a week; nobody will whine. Screw it up during crunch time? you better show up before the boss and leave after the boss for a few weeks. (the second one can be dangerous... I mean, if you are screwing up due to overwork, then having you work more.... but that's the way it is.)

rmrfrmrf 14y ago
Sorry, recruiter was the wrong word. This person was recruiting people, but they were a developer on the web team talking about their experience in the workplace.

31reasons 14y ago

I truly believe Programmers should never get a "job". If you are not skilled at all they are really overpaying you and if you have any skill at all, they are really underpaying you. I wish a day when all programmers just work as consultants and paid of every hour they work. Programmers should be treated more like artists or actors.

Joeri 14y ago
There is more value to programming than what it puts in your bank account though. If you wish to build and be part of a truly engaging product, you have to engage for the long haul with a codebase, on the order of years. That means either (A) you make your own product (and are responsible for your own business strategy, accounting and sales), or (B) you get into a fixed contract with some employer (where due to the long term relationship they will be careful to restrict what they pay). In scenario (A) you will not spend all your day programming. You will have to care about the business parts. If you're not cut out for those parts, even if you end up making lots of money, you will probably not be happy. In scenario (B) you are more likely to be able to spend more time programming, with less overhead to worry about, but this depends heavily on the employer, so you may end up performing several false starts or walking away from an employer/employee relationship. If an employer accepts you, you will most likely not be paid what your time is worth, but this is a willing exchange for not having to care about the non-technical parts of the story. Is there a scenario C? If there is I've not yet discovered it.
- hispanic 14y ago
  Yes, there is. I've worked as a paid-by-the-hour contractor for a single client for years at a time. I've done this for three different clients - for 4 years, 2 and 1/2 years, and (my current client) 3 and 1/2 years. In my current role, I serve as dev lead and have significant input with regard to strategic direction of the project. I might be an outlier and my experience may not be shared by many, but I'm evidence that scenario C exists.
snowwrestler 14y ago
Consultants absolutely do not get paid for every hour they work. Time spent finding new clients, for example, is totally unpaid. And most consultants need to spend a fair amount of time doing this. Ongoing training and education time are also totally unpaid. Clients hire you to solve problems and go away--they won't invest in you like they would an employee.