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French President announces pro-business measures
- tekahs 13y agoFrom a french guy : We are so late on this. imo, it's just an adjustment compare to other country (like US). There is also a lot to do to change the mentality, because the crowd don't believe in "entrepreneurship" and prefer to work directly in big company.
- ekianjo 13y agoor prefer not to work at all :) When you see Liberation glorifying people living on RSA...
- conradfr 13y agoSource ?
- ekianjo 13y agoAh that was not Liberation, but inrocks instead... but I may have read something similar in the Liberation since they are so very much in the same line of thought: http://www.lesinrocks.com/2010/09/26/actualite/ils-ont-decide-de-ne-plus-travailler-1125542/ http://www.lesinrocks.com/2010/09/26/actualite/ils-ont-decid... For English speakers out there, the title means "they decided not to work anymore" That's what you get for giving out welfare without setting any expectations to the person who gets it: people abusing the system.
- conradfr 13y agoThanks. I don't think that article glorified anything though.
- ekianjo 13y agoWell, when 95% of the article supports one idea and only the last 10 lines mention the potential issues with it, I call that very biased at the least.
- rguillebert 13y agoThe article says they can't afford proper food and have no social life...
- tekahs 13y agoOf course, it's a minority. I prefer to add this information for all the readers.
- wazoox 13y agoYeah, because it's so easy and comfortable living on 650 euros/month...
- rikacomet 13y agofrom a Indian guy, planning on coming to France for Higher Studies: France is sprinting now, when others are exhausted (USA, UK, China, India).. France is where it is right now.
- jvzr 13y agoI'd like to know your sources, and wear your rosy glasses. As a French student, I'll leave the country at the first occasion. We are heading into a big, thick wall and we'll lose more than the pigeons when we go bankrupt.
- rikacomet 13y agoIf everyone saw that side window opening at the same time, the term 'pioneer' would not have been coined.
- tekahs 13y agoMaybe, but I'm not so sure. Why do you believe that ? (Examples, or whatever)
- rikacomet 13y agoWell, Its the actual changes in law, like this particular article here today, 10 steps announced by the French Govt. Over last 1-2 years, France has been working pretty hard... on this, lot of opportunities to capitalise on. This year itself, I attended a tour-de-India, by cultural groups from France, it was a really big thing, a clear intent. Its more like, you might know something is cool, before its cool. The same way, people would laugh at the overpriced education in US/UK, 20 years back in India.. we will see how it goes.. I know clearer than a day, that at the first opportunity, I'm going to France.
- ekianjo 13y agoThere are surely more Frenchmen settling in China right now than Chinese or Indians wanting to come and set up a business in France. I have no idea where you get impression it works the other way around.
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- Variance 13y agoSome nice minor gestures, but these will hardly "redefine French business as we know it."
- civilian 13y agoThe visa thing is nice. Simplifying capital gains tax is awesome. I can't say that I'm a big fan of the tax breaks though. We shouldn't subsidize any business, they should fail or succeed on their own merits.
- notimetorelax 13y agoIt's a question of balance, if people want to see more new businesses to come around then it makes a lot of sense to lower the entry barrier.
- edouard1234567 13y agoI believe there is something somehow similar in the US where a founder gets a 100% exclusion from tax (up to $10M per taxpayer) for “qualified small business stock” held for more than 5 years. I think this is still the case.
- fab13n 13y ago> Simplifying capital gains tax is awesome. It _would_ be, but that's the part I'm the least confident about. Simplifying goes against the DNA of both France and bureaucracy, so I don't expect much of French bureaucracy about this; I expect the ministère des finances to reintroduce at least as many byzantine rules as they're forced to abrogate. The ministère is stuffed to the brim with [ENA alumni](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89cole_nationale_dadministration http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89cole_nationale_dadministr...), i.e. people extremely well connected and well versed in stealth sabotaging of unwanted reforms. They've a strong track record of politically killing finance ministers who wanted to "simplify" them. > We shouldn't subsidize any business, they should fail or succeed on their own merits. Indeed, but big companies have an unfair advantage over small ones: they're able to influence regulation (especially if they can afford to hire ENA alumni). In a heavily regulation-prone country such as France, this advantage is so important that it stifles SMEs; some countermeasures are needed.
- bvrlt 13y agoAgreed with "own merits" but that would be true is competition was local. Once you start compete with Delaware-based company, tax breaks can help and make it more fair.
- nraynaud 13y agoI have to check again, last time I called my lawyer, the tax on my income was 14% and the tax on an share sale would have been 42%, so I'm really in favor of having both at the same rate.
- yardie 13y agoThat is swell and everything. But why doesn't the president fix his crazy tax scheme, first. The pigeons have already left the roost and now he's set his aim further down the tax bracket. Apologies, I just received a letter saying I owe the impots an additional 400€. For reasons I can't imagine since my salary hasn't appreciated that much. Entrepreneurship is hard enough already, the government taking more money doesn't make it any easier no matter how many visas they grant.
- steeve 13y agothe Impots are really nice and competent. the few times I got some issues with them, a mail solved the issue. really nice and polite. URSSAF or RSI on the other hand...
- subsystem 13y agoBack taxes has very little to do with the system and very much to do with your employers bookkeeping?
- yardie 13y agoI've been with my employer for 6 years and have never had a problem such as this. I also pay my taxes in monthly instalments that is predetermined by the fonctionnaires.
- protomyth 13y agoIn the US, I've noticed following the instructions on the W-2 to pick your deductions (and set how much of your check is taken in taxes) does not give the correct amount with some employers. I am not sure if its software or just poor accounting. I started just putting 0 and calling it a day. good luck with yours
- LekkoscPiwa 13y ago75% tax rate. He is a sociallist big time. He hates free market economy. Now confronting public outrage he puts some lipstick on a pig and it still doesn't look good as he doesn't get the markets. 75% tax rate, who is he kidding? Who wants to work for free for years on their startup and sacrifice their savings, their social life, sometimes their family, just to be hit by 75% tax at the end of the journey? No thank you Hollande, but no thank you.
- tekahs 13y agoNot feeding the troll, but the average tax for a company is ~36%. 75% is the income tax when you are very rich. (And it's still a project). now, the income tax is 50% for the rich people.
- ekianjo 13y agoWell that's still far high enough even at 36%. There are several places more business-friendly around the world.
- claudius 13y ago> There are several places more business-friendly around the world. Sure. There are also several places with much worse infrastructure around the world. If you don’t want to pay taxes, go to Somalia.
- speeq 13y agoWhat about places like UAE? The Dubai "Internet City"- Free Trade Zone offers absence of corporate and personal income taxes or customs duties, as well as free repatriation of capital and profit in any currency. I'd say, if you don't want to pay taxes, go to Dubai.
- claudius 13y agoWasn’t there a thread here recently how it took them until 2010 to build a second sewage plant and still have to haul their shit away in trucks?
- babarock 13y agoTo me, the most important thing is that he's closing the "040" indicator used by the banks to index the entrepreneurs who previously failed. It's virtually impossible to get help from a bank if your previous startup has failed. There's a bigger picture here. France is so incredibly intolerant of failure it's not funny. There's the rampant myth of the "genius superstar that never fails" and you only get one chance to prove yourself. It's no surprise that people will (generally, there are exceptions) prefer steady and safe employment in big corporations. I think the best thing we can do for entrepreneurs is to encourage people to take risks and fail a few times. But this needs a major overhaul of the mentality in the country. I'm glad to see the government is taking a first step.
- edouard1234567 13y agoI totally agree and I'm surprised by all the negative comments on this page. These measures seem to be going in the right direction: 1 - encouraging entrepreneurship by reducing the risk (no more bad credit score aka banning 040 code) 2 - increasing the reward through tax breaks on early capital gain.
- jvzr 13y agoAgain, promises. And F. Hollande has not a good track records of keeping promises.
- edouard1234567 13y agoMaybe, but that's probably not the right forum for politics...
- steeve 13y agoLots and lots of good things: more stable tax rules, reinforcing and stabilizing the JEI (which is a HUGE win, since it was changed every year...), right to fail, startup visa. Also, creating incentive for big companies to work with startups is awesome. The bigcorp/startup link is almost non-existent here (compared to the US for instance). This one alone will help the ecosystem big time.
- alexei18 13y agoFrench startups. Bunch of pissy little whiners. They cry when nothing is done to help them, cry louder when something is done to help them. And the same people who spend so much energy bashing any government, left or right, cry like babies to get any state subsidies for their failed ideas. And they dare call themselves entrepreneurs. I wonder how do so many foreigners succeed to start their business in this country.
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- geal 13y agoEasy to see: despite all the whiners and the bad reputation, you can find good people to work with in France.
- negrit 13y agoBeside the "040" indicator everything else sounds like golden bullshit to me.
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- mathieuruellan 13y agoBullshit! A french teacher can't learn entrepreneurship. Most of them have no idea what is a company and what is business!
- waxzce 13y agobut entrepreneur can do it :-)
- waxzce 13y agoSo sorry about some French habits : many of bad comments are made by French... In fact, some French guy like French bashing, in public international place, but it doesn't sounds good for business isn't it ? We have also great entrepreneur with great exits or great companies. And some of us are business ready and don't complain all the time. Such a shame nobody ear of them...
- jacquesm 13y agoWhen French entrepreneurs move to Berlin and London to work on their companies you know you have a problem. France's capital gain taxes are a real issue, and even the new, changed and improved rates will not do much to counteract this. And that's just one of the things working against French entrepreneurs, the various employment laws don't help a whole lot either. It would be fair to class France as start-up hostile at the present date, but the situation is improving. Which gives me all the more respect for those French entrepreneurs that succeed.
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- kybernetyk 13y ago> When entrepreneurs move to Berlin to work on their companies I'd say you have a real problem if that happens. Germany is pretty entrepreneur unfriendly (source: I'm an entrepreneur in Germany) and if your country is even worse ... well.
- subsystem 13y agoI think what started the startup scene in Berlin was largely low rents and an exciting city more than if it's entrepreneur friendly. On the other hand a lot of entrepreneur seem to complain just out of inexperience in business.
- archivator 13y agoHuh, I've heard only good things about the startup scene in Berlin. What are some of the main issues from your perspective, if you don't mind elaborating?
- MetaCosm 13y agoInsiders only need apply. The over-regulation does nothing but protect the existing players and stifling start-up competition across dozens of industries.
- damient 13y agoThese measures are extremely favorable to entrepreneurship in France. They will help people to create companies, to develop them, and even to bounce back if they fail \o/
- tpainton 13y agoYes, it's about as reassuring as the Treaty of Versailles.
- tpainton 13y agoand #11, if you are successful, we take most of your money.
- LekkoscPiwa 13y agoThere is a reason for which there have been no big French or European company founded after WW2 (1945). The reason is called socialism. Think about it. BMW, Mercedes, Siemens, Loreal, Peugot, you name it! No Google from Europe, no Microsoft, no Oracle, or Tesla, or whatever. Not a single big company from the EU after 1945. Especially overregulated places like France. I met a French clothes designer in New York recently. He told me he escaped Paris and France because he couldn't afford to open fashion house in Paris. He told me that just to open a fashion design shop in France he would need to pay 15,000 euros (about 20,000 USD) in fees in taxes to the Government. Just to obtain a few pieces of paper from the Government to be able to start the business. Just to open. No profit yet, doesn't know if it will work out or not, has no customers. Using his life savings or going into debt to start his own business and contribute to the society. Penalized to the point he said good bye. He escaped to the USA. Good job Hollande!
- vacri 13y agoTesla is a big company? Bigger than Virgin? Pull the other one, it's got bells on. I'm not saying incorporation is not stupidly expensive in Europe, but lets keep it balanced.
- 3pt14159 13y agoHe means non-UK Europe.
- josephlord 13y agoAnd in the software field a little company called SAP AG and elsewhere in the technology field a little phone company called Vodafone.
- claudius 13y agoNot to mention the giants coming from privatisation of previous publicly owned industries – e.g. Deutsche Post, Deutsche Telekom and Deutsche Bahn. The difference to the US seems to be that many businesses that grew after WW2 already existed beforehand (e.g. Aldi) and/or didn’t really grow, but still outcompete everybody else in their respective fields (SME aka German Mittelstand).
- lifeisstillgood 13y agoAmericans (and the Vulcans) have a saying: Only Nixon could go to China.
- smoyer 13y agoI remember hearing about France's 35-hour work-week (in the mid to late '90s I believe) and I'm curious if some of the Frenchmen here can tell us how eliminating that cap has affected the economy. Are people simply working more hours? Has unemployment gone up since a business needing X number of hours a week needs less workers? And most importantly, was that limiting the ability to create start-ups?
- yardie 13y agoI work in France and I'm still trying to wrap my head around the 35-hour rule. I've only worked PMEs (<50 empl.) so I don't know how big companies manage, once you get over 50 different rules kick in. * General salaries are sort of trapped outside the big cities. You can work 35-hours but don't expect any pay raises. I think the avg salary is around 1500€/mo. I would say most people have built there lives around the 35-hour week and even though it's not an upper limit anymore I haven't noticed an uptick in working hours. * There are so many things wrong in the French economy you can't really site a single source. Sluggish economy, automation, globalisation, all play a part. Do remember that after 35 hours that extra time is voluntary, as Apple is finding out. A smart manager wouldn't build a work schedule around 40 hours knowing the workers can legally walk off at 35. * Startup culture was much harder in the past. Where would you live? No property owner would rent you a flat because you don't have a "real" job. Bankruptcy was devastating, that 040 code. And then you have the social charges. The government wanted you to pay your pension, insurance, and the other social charges, in advance. Imagine what it costs to create a startup? Now imagine having to pay an entire year of taxes before you can sign your first customer. And the other thing was bureaucracy, lots of it. The government tried to make inroads on the tax charges by allowing them to be delayed for 2 years. And a lot of companies failed at 2 years for this reason.[1] [1] this was told to me by a political activist friend.
- smoyer 13y agoThanks for the information ... After working 60-80 hour weeks on the start-ups I've done, I just couldn't imagine how it would have been possible with the old laws.
- bradfordarner 13y agoThis is phenomenal news for France! After having married a French woman, lived in France and subsequently we moved back to the U.S., I realized how far behind France was in the entrepreneurial game when compared to the States. Yet, there are really brilliant people in France! These measures are definitely a step forward. I will be interested to see if they speak about it on Le Grand Journal this evening. Once we have children, we have thought about moving back to France because the education system is so good but, we have been very pessimistic about doing so because entrepreneurship is so looked down upon. Unfortunately, I don’t think Hollande’s efforts are going to have too great an effect long-term. My experience has indicated that the French system is set up in such a way as to reward people who don’t take any risks. It is not simply the banking system or taxes that is to blame. There is a cultural stigma against taking risks that does not exist in the States. The education system is at least 100x better than the best schools in America, yet good test score count for very little when it comes to the hustle required in entrepreneurship, much less web based entrepreneurship where everyone is brilliant and hard working. There is simply not the same commitment to innovation. I often felt that I had made a faux pas when I lived in France and spoke about different business ideas at dinner or a party. Unfortunately, politics is not the only problem holding the many brilliant people in France back from innovating and changing the world. In France, it is not culturally acceptable to want to be like Elon Musk.
- ferrantim 13y ago+1 my wife is French too and we are also contemplating moving back when our kids are school age. The big risk is the business climate but more and more I'm feeling excited about going to France and helping change the culture in small ways. Just like the French chefs who came to the US and turned our culinary world upside down, us based tech entrepreneurs can introduce some of what made the valley so successful. France is such an amazing culture. Glad to see that Hollande is taking steps to make it easy to fail and succeed.
- bradfordarner 13y agoAgreed. That is the frustrating part. The education system is so great and their health system is incredible. I really liked living in Paris. It is without a doubt the most beautiful city that I have ever lived in. Plus, I absolutely love the French language. We are sort of in the same position. We would like to head out to Silicon Valley get some experience there and then move back to France and become involved in entrepreneurship in Paris while our children would finish high school and go to university.