8 ms·

Fully agreed - IMHO this article again shows how removed from reality some people are and seemingly nothing is left out to polarise society further (a/k/a the p

by fpp 13y ago

Fully agreed - IMHO this article again shows how removed from reality some people are and seemingly nothing is left out to polarise society further (a/k/a the poor are only to stupid - look here they can live a healthy diet on even less). a few thoughts on this article: (1) compare the energy / fat / etc in this article with the rations given to the British people during WWII and shortly afterwards - I estimate the article's diet is even below those and nobody would ever dare to deny those enduring that time lived in abundance or a healthy diet. (2) one more "... live on xxx £ for a few days" - Hypocrites, a few days does not make a difference. You can easily live on a few sugar cubes & apples (plus water) for 10 or more days. Most people would not feel different after that, and in our obese societies some even pay thousands of £s for such a minimal diet to loose some weight. The difference comes from 2-3 months or a year. When you're actually poor like many in the UK - being in such a situation (for indefinitely or until you win the lottery - about the same) adds a massive psychological toll on top that should not be underestimated. Hint to understand: If I tell you at the beginning of a 2 months software development task that all code you're going to write during these 2 months will be dumped unseen, ask yourself how much of a great coder you will be - so much about motivation and psychological toll. (3) it is generally no fun to be poor even if some tell you otherwise - you're excluded from society, constantly humiliated and shown that you're worth nothing. This is even worse if you have children. (4) With the changes in the social systems during the last decade(s) in Europe there is almost no chance to get out of this situation by yourself particularly if you're over 50 or have been unemployed longer than 2 years. And you get there much quicker than any politician would publicly admit. If you're self-employed, a few people not paying their bills, a few new contracts not signed - bang you're there. There is a petition running at change.org that already more than 475'000 Brits have signed to asked bigmouth IDS (work & pensions secretary) who claimed he could easily live on £7 a day to actually do it and do it for longer than a few days - sign it to at least show you disregards with these politics ( http://www.change.org/en-GB/petitions/iain-duncan-smith-iain-duncan-smith-to-live-on-53-a-week http://www.change.org/en-GB/petitions/iain-duncan-smith-iain... ).

claudius 13y ago
I used to live on 700 €/month for three years, where I spent 310 €/month on rent (including warm water and heating for a 1-room + kitchen + bathroom flat of 40m²) and saved a further 100 €/month, plus ~50 €/month for university fees (~250 €/6 months). So I lived off (700 - 310 - 100 - 50 = 240 €)/month, which I found to be no particular problem – ~150 €/month on food, toothbrushes etc. (general groceries), 30 €/month on telecommunications, 35 €/month on electricity which left me with 25 €/month for eating out once or twice plus clothes. Hence, I’d say that 7 £/day is perfectly possible, provided that rent is covered by other means (as it is for German long-term unemployment benefits of ~350 €/month).
- Someone 13y ago
  Did you have a similar mix and quality of clothes at the end of tht period as at the start? Similarly, was you washing machine (if you had one) of similar quality? T.v, computer? It is relatively easy to live on a budget starting from a position where you have all relatively new stuff, and where you have a full closet of relatively new clothes. Also: €25 for eating out once or twice plus clothes?
  - claudius 13y ago
    You can get jeans for 10 €, lasting about four months (so a year if you have three), shoes are roughly twice the price, three t-shirts usually come in at 5€ (Aldi is wonderful at that – thinking of which, I mostly bought my clothes there, including them in the general groceries category[0]). I bought a used washing machine when I moved in for 90 €, which had to be replaced after two years, so this would be 3.75 €/month. The oven came with the flat and worked fine, I got an old fridge from my grandparents which was still functional when I moved out, but likely sucked up far more energy than necessary. Tech was relatively decent (used X300, used X41, a weird desktopy-mediacentery thing) when I moved in, I got a T410s after two years from the money I had saved when the battery in the X300 failed and sold the latter for 500€ (350 after replacement of said battery). Trips to my parents were usually paid directly by them, but they obviously weren’t strictly necessary either. You can get a döner and a drink or two for ~8 € – surely not eating out, but not eating in either. [0] I spent about 25 € there per week, which would give 120 €/month for strictly groceries and a further 30€ for extras (cheap pans, clothes, paper etc.).
hkmurakami 13y ago
(3) "Being Poor" and "Living/Acting (on the surface) as if you are poor" are completely different things, since the former carries not only social stigma and alienation like parent mentions, but also because these social stares and prejudices will incite all sorts of mental/psychological insecurities in a person that just aren't desirable. (4) Brings to mind the "Unfit for work" report on America's "disabled workers" (non)solution for those who are effectively no longer employable given their skill set and physical state: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5424241 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5424241
- illuminate 13y ago
  It reminds me of Pulp's Common People, poverty tourism doesn't provide a ton of insight if you don't account/control for your ability to leave it all behind at any point.
yummyfajitas 13y ago
Your claims are a little surprising, at least from an American perspective. Our various welfare programs are so generous that our poor can (and often do) eat like gluttons. I was under the impression that UK welfare benefits are far more generous than those in the US - is that incorrect? (Full disclosure - I've spent a grand total of 5 days of my life in the UK, most of it in zones 1-2 of London. I know virtually nothing about your situation, which is why I'm asking.) [edit: citation on poverty and gluttony. I'm surprised that this is still a controversial fact. http://www.mchb.hrsa.gov/whusa11/hstat/hshi/pages/210oo.html http://www.mchb.hrsa.gov/whusa11/hstat/hshi/pages/210oo.html http://mchb.hrsa.gov/chusa11/hstat/hsa/pages/221oo.html http://mchb.hrsa.gov/chusa11/hstat/hsa/pages/221oo.html ]
- jiggy2011 13y ago
  That depends, for the most part being on welfare doesn't allow for an extravagant lifestyle at all. Especially if you are a single person living alone. Job seekers allowance (the standard benefit for the unemployed) will net you around £50 per week. Out of that has to come all of your expenses including energy , food , travel etc. You may be able to get rent covered by separate housing benefits. Of course the right wing press will often print examples of families on benefit who are pulling in large sums of money from the taxpayer. I think in most cases these are cherry picked cases. You do of course get more money if you have children, so perhaps if one can produce enough children to benefit from economies of scale it becomes more likely.
  - pbhjpbhj 13y ago
    >Job seekers allowance (the standard benefit for the unemployed) will net you around £50 per week. // Our family live on far less than that each per week after housing and we're working ... clearly we're not doing it right but it seems that is more than sufficient. Indeed my experience is that those I know on benefits can afford to live quite badly, wastefully.
    - jiggy2011 13y ago
      How do you budget for that? By the time I've used Energy/Gas + Internet + transport I've taken a huge bite out of that, not to mention food , phone etc.
Paul_D_Santana 13y ago
I agree. Some of the meal choices were pretty ridiculous too. Toast and jam as an entire meal? And the title of the article is "How to eat healthy"?? There is one absolute best way to spend less on groceries, and it is something that everyone can do, regardless of where you live, what diet you're on, or how much money you have. What's the secret? When you're shopping, write down the cost of every item before putting it in your cart. You will be amazed at how your food choices will change. For example, once I started doing this, I shifted to buying fruit and vegetables that were in season (and thus less expensive), rather than just buying things randomly and oblivious to the cost. The same goes for choices of meats, fish, and even non-food household items like soaps, detergents, toiletries, etc. This is by far the best method of spending less on groceries that can apply to everyone. If you've never done it, I challenge you to try it just once. And if you have any suggestions on how to make this strategy even more effective, please let me know!
- fpp 13y ago
  I would go a step further - it looks more like the usual spring weight-loss plan plus some cynical spitting on the poor. The Victorian age is back in the UK and seemingly not only by wealth distribution (that has already been achieved a few years ago). The NeoCons would say we're half way there (on the journey back to times before the Age of Reason).
- pyre 13y ago
  Which soaps are 'in-season' and when? ;-)
- Evbn 13y ago
  I obsess over price per ounce of my food while I am in the store. (Though it gets harder as I age and my brain weakens, and as prices and sizes get intentionally harder to compare) Even still, I myself that groceries I eat are super cheap compare to food I throw away and restaurant meals. (And I avoid packaged meals and name brand cereal, which are near restaurant priced) Every now and then I remember that the vast majority of people don't or can't think about food costs, and shudder. Paying $2 for a bottle of water with a scoop of sugar poured in. $5 for a box of Kellogs instead of $3 for generic. $4 for the frozen brocolli with fake cheese sprinkled top instead of $2 for plain. Etc
keithpeter 13y ago
"a/k/a the poor are only to stupid - look here they can live a healthy diet on even less)." Agreed. George Orwell explored this one in his Road to Wigan Pier, ch 6. I would encourage people to shop at their local food market. I can get all the fruit and veg we need for a week for £5 to £6 relatively easily at Birmingham's Fruit and Veg market.
- phaus 13y ago
  I make a decent wage myself(well, its shitty for the field I work in but I have more than many do), but I live in one of the poorest parts of the U.S.. A 3 pound bag of apples costs about 4-5 dollars here. The farmer's markets are probably a dollar cheaper. I guess that's enough apples for a week, but I wouldn't consider myself to be stocked up on fruits and veggies.
  - keithpeter 13y ago
    There are only two of us, and in UK prices, 5 large apples is £1, you get 3lb to 4lb potatoes for another £1. Bananas £1 'a bowl' (about 5 large ones). Cabbages (savoy) two for £1 when in season, or broccoli. A few courgettes, peppers, and an Aubergine another £1.50. Carrots/parsnips whatever in season £1. Tomatoes £1 a bowl and OK I'm over budget. Add in rice, pasta, tinned tomatoes for cooking, tinned pulses, cheese &c bread and wine and we eat ok. The market is significantly cheaper than the local supermarkets in Birmingham, I suspect because of proximity to the main wholesale market for the region and because the stuff might be 'grade 2', i.e. not pristine looking and all the same size. This is not a farmers' market (in the UK farmers' markets tend to have organically grown or very high quality produce from specialist growers sold direct). It does have organic stalls (I buy kale and lovely onions from one of them sometimes, but they are more expensive). I'm a teacher on good hourly rate but currently working half time for family reasons so I am watching the budget a little. PS: I can't edit my original post any more. I meant of course that I agreed with user fpp's point that it is unreasonable to expect people to live on emergency budgets for long periods of time.

by fpp 13y ago

claudius 13y ago

I used to live on 700 €/month for three years, where I spent 310 €/month on rent (including warm water and heating for a 1-room + kitchen + bathroom flat of 40m²) and saved a further 100 €/month, plus ~50 €/month for university fees (~250 €/6 months). So I lived off (700 - 310 - 100 - 50 = 240 €)/month, which I found to be no particular problem – ~150 €/month on food, toothbrushes etc. (general groceries), 30 €/month on telecommunications, 35 €/month on electricity which left me with 25 €/month for eating out once or twice plus clothes. Hence, I’d say that 7 £/day is perfectly possible, provided that rent is covered by other means (as it is for German long-term unemployment benefits of ~350 €/month).

Someone 13y ago
Did you have a similar mix and quality of clothes at the end of tht period as at the start? Similarly, was you washing machine (if you had one) of similar quality? T.v, computer? It is relatively easy to live on a budget starting from a position where you have all relatively new stuff, and where you have a full closet of relatively new clothes. Also: €25 for eating out once or twice plus clothes?
- claudius 13y ago
  You can get jeans for 10 €, lasting about four months (so a year if you have three), shoes are roughly twice the price, three t-shirts usually come in at 5€ (Aldi is wonderful at that – thinking of which, I mostly bought my clothes there, including them in the general groceries category[0]). I bought a used washing machine when I moved in for 90 €, which had to be replaced after two years, so this would be 3.75 €/month. The oven came with the flat and worked fine, I got an old fridge from my grandparents which was still functional when I moved out, but likely sucked up far more energy than necessary. Tech was relatively decent (used X300, used X41, a weird desktopy-mediacentery thing) when I moved in, I got a T410s after two years from the money I had saved when the battery in the X300 failed and sold the latter for 500€ (350 after replacement of said battery). Trips to my parents were usually paid directly by them, but they obviously weren’t strictly necessary either. You can get a döner and a drink or two for ~8 € – surely not eating out, but not eating in either. [0] I spent about 25 € there per week, which would give 120 €/month for strictly groceries and a further 30€ for extras (cheap pans, clothes, paper etc.).

hkmurakami 13y ago

(3) "Being Poor" and "Living/Acting (on the surface) as if you are poor" are completely different things, since the former carries not only social stigma and alienation like parent mentions, but also because these social stares and prejudices will incite all sorts of mental/psychological insecurities in a person that just aren't desirable. (4) Brings to mind the "Unfit for work" report on America's "disabled workers" (non)solution for those who are effectively no longer employable given their skill set and physical state: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5424241 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5424241

illuminate 13y ago
It reminds me of Pulp's Common People, poverty tourism doesn't provide a ton of insight if you don't account/control for your ability to leave it all behind at any point.

yummyfajitas 13y ago

Your claims are a little surprising, at least from an American perspective. Our various welfare programs are so generous that our poor can (and often do) eat like gluttons. I was under the impression that UK welfare benefits are far more generous than those in the US - is that incorrect? (Full disclosure - I've spent a grand total of 5 days of my life in the UK, most of it in zones 1-2 of London. I know virtually nothing about your situation, which is why I'm asking.) [edit: citation on poverty and gluttony. I'm surprised that this is still a controversial fact. http://www.mchb.hrsa.gov/whusa11/hstat/hshi/pages/210oo.html http://www.mchb.hrsa.gov/whusa11/hstat/hshi/pages/210oo.html http://mchb.hrsa.gov/chusa11/hstat/hsa/pages/221oo.html http://mchb.hrsa.gov/chusa11/hstat/hsa/pages/221oo.html ]

jiggy2011 13y ago
That depends, for the most part being on welfare doesn't allow for an extravagant lifestyle at all. Especially if you are a single person living alone. Job seekers allowance (the standard benefit for the unemployed) will net you around £50 per week. Out of that has to come all of your expenses including energy , food , travel etc. You may be able to get rent covered by separate housing benefits. Of course the right wing press will often print examples of families on benefit who are pulling in large sums of money from the taxpayer. I think in most cases these are cherry picked cases. You do of course get more money if you have children, so perhaps if one can produce enough children to benefit from economies of scale it becomes more likely.
- pbhjpbhj 13y ago
  >Job seekers allowance (the standard benefit for the unemployed) will net you around £50 per week. // Our family live on far less than that each per week after housing and we're working ... clearly we're not doing it right but it seems that is more than sufficient. Indeed my experience is that those I know on benefits can afford to live quite badly, wastefully.
  - jiggy2011 13y ago
    How do you budget for that? By the time I've used Energy/Gas + Internet + transport I've taken a huge bite out of that, not to mention food , phone etc.

Paul_D_Santana 13y ago

I agree. Some of the meal choices were pretty ridiculous too. Toast and jam as an entire meal? And the title of the article is "How to eat healthy"?? There is one absolute best way to spend less on groceries, and it is something that everyone can do, regardless of where you live, what diet you're on, or how much money you have. What's the secret? When you're shopping, write down the cost of every item before putting it in your cart. You will be amazed at how your food choices will change. For example, once I started doing this, I shifted to buying fruit and vegetables that were in season (and thus less expensive), rather than just buying things randomly and oblivious to the cost. The same goes for choices of meats, fish, and even non-food household items like soaps, detergents, toiletries, etc. This is by far the best method of spending less on groceries that can apply to everyone. If you've never done it, I challenge you to try it just once. And if you have any suggestions on how to make this strategy even more effective, please let me know!

fpp 13y ago
I would go a step further - it looks more like the usual spring weight-loss plan plus some cynical spitting on the poor. The Victorian age is back in the UK and seemingly not only by wealth distribution (that has already been achieved a few years ago). The NeoCons would say we're half way there (on the journey back to times before the Age of Reason).
pyre 13y ago
Which soaps are 'in-season' and when? ;-)
Evbn 13y ago
I obsess over price per ounce of my food while I am in the store. (Though it gets harder as I age and my brain weakens, and as prices and sizes get intentionally harder to compare) Even still, I myself that groceries I eat are super cheap compare to food I throw away and restaurant meals. (And I avoid packaged meals and name brand cereal, which are near restaurant priced) Every now and then I remember that the vast majority of people don't or can't think about food costs, and shudder. Paying $2 for a bottle of water with a scoop of sugar poured in. $5 for a box of Kellogs instead of $3 for generic. $4 for the frozen brocolli with fake cheese sprinkled top instead of $2 for plain. Etc

keithpeter 13y ago

"a/k/a the poor are only to stupid - look here they can live a healthy diet on even less)." Agreed. George Orwell explored this one in his Road to Wigan Pier, ch 6. I would encourage people to shop at their local food market. I can get all the fruit and veg we need for a week for £5 to £6 relatively easily at Birmingham's Fruit and Veg market.

phaus 13y ago
I make a decent wage myself(well, its shitty for the field I work in but I have more than many do), but I live in one of the poorest parts of the U.S.. A 3 pound bag of apples costs about 4-5 dollars here. The farmer's markets are probably a dollar cheaper. I guess that's enough apples for a week, but I wouldn't consider myself to be stocked up on fruits and veggies.
- keithpeter 13y ago
  There are only two of us, and in UK prices, 5 large apples is £1, you get 3lb to 4lb potatoes for another £1. Bananas £1 'a bowl' (about 5 large ones). Cabbages (savoy) two for £1 when in season, or broccoli. A few courgettes, peppers, and an Aubergine another £1.50. Carrots/parsnips whatever in season £1. Tomatoes £1 a bowl and OK I'm over budget. Add in rice, pasta, tinned tomatoes for cooking, tinned pulses, cheese &c bread and wine and we eat ok. The market is significantly cheaper than the local supermarkets in Birmingham, I suspect because of proximity to the main wholesale market for the region and because the stuff might be 'grade 2', i.e. not pristine looking and all the same size. This is not a farmers' market (in the UK farmers' markets tend to have organically grown or very high quality produce from specialist growers sold direct). It does have organic stalls (I buy kale and lovely onions from one of them sometimes, but they are more expensive). I'm a teacher on good hourly rate but currently working half time for family reasons so I am watching the budget a little. PS: I can't edit my original post any more. I meant of course that I agreed with user fpp's point that it is unreasonable to expect people to live on emergency budgets for long periods of time.