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I don't like how judgmental he is about lifestyle choices alternative to the ones he's made. I, personally, enjoy going out to eat, I enjoy the "$100 happy hour

I don't like how judgmental he is about lifestyle choices alternative to the ones he's made. I, personally, enjoy going out to eat, I enjoy the "$100 happy hours," I'm in Turks and Caicos right now on a stretch of the most beautiful beach I've ever seen and I enjoy that, too. Oh, and I don't particularly dislike working. I'm a well paid highly skilled engineer building cool things for a fantastic .com that takes care of its people. I get it, he has options and choices and that is an ideal. If I wanted to retire right this very second, I couldn't. But you know if my wife wanted to give birth right this second she couldn't. It requires about 11 months of planning and prep work and the fact she hasn't put that time in already is in no way a bad thing or a disadvantage for her. She LIKES splitting a bottle of wine with me at dinner and eating seared tuna and ice cream desserts and coffee and dirty martinis. So, not yet, for us. I just wish he could be a better advocate for his extreme frugality and savings lifestyle without building it on criticizing the alternative with every other breath. (And even if some things aren't strictly criticism they are de facto criticism by painting them in a less then gracious light.)

Evbn 14y ago
GetRichSlowly, IIRC correctly is a much saner and more meaningful blog about personal finance for smart middle class people.
- secabeen 14y ago
  It was. Since JD left, its been much less personal and more corporate. Few of the writers resonate with me, and many of them come across as "here's the standard personal finance solution to X, described plainly".
fnordfnordfnord 14y ago
You don't have to listen to everything he says. Take the ideas that help you.
PKop 14y ago
But why? Seriously, why can't he come to his own conclusion about said lifestyle choices? You don't have to agree with him, but why can't he judge certain lifestyle choices as better or worse? Just as you have done for yourself. I think if he doesn't clearly define what he thinks is better and why, then what advice is he really providing? People can choose to agree or not, without taking it as a personal insult.
- sanderjd 14y ago
  Your parent is judging that his lifestyle choices are better for him while the subject of the interview is judging that his lifestyle choices are better for everyone. I'm not saying who is right or wrong, but let's not conflate the two different points being made.
  - PKop 14y ago
    You're definitely right there is a distinction. I accept that, but still would argue why is it bad to make prescriptive suggestions for others lifestyles? He feels strongly that his choices are the right way (and is fighting against the notion that happiness and lower consumption, materialism, consumerism are mutually exclusive). Perhaps it is right for many people, and by making his judgements public, it will provide helpful information for others to be exposed to. Why is upsetting certain people by telling them that he disagrees with their lifestyle choices a bad thing, such that he should refrain from making these judgements public? OP seems to be saying, your judgements of my lifestyle hurt my feelings, and made me self conscious of my choices and that's bad... regardless of the positive effects of strongly and clearly stating his value judgements so as to cause people to critically examine their assumptions and choices. I think the OP's reaction is just the effect MMM would like to cause people to have, if it results in positive changes. If it rubs some people the wrong way, that's a side effect that's worth it. If people are confident in their choices they shouldn't care what this guy or anyone else says about them.
- jamesaguilar 14y ago
  It's not really the same. If I pick a lifestyle for myself, that's not a judgment on other people's lifestyles. If I pick a lifestyle then start calling other people wasteful, that is a judgment on others. Be it true or not, that rubs some people the wrong way. Personally I don't care if he judges me. He's living within a few tens of percent above the poverty line (based on his comments in this article). Of course the lifestyle of someone spending even $40k a year is going to seem wasteful to him.
wildgift 14y ago
Well, it's an article, and it's not like he's berating you personally. A less judgmental person would have made a less interesting subject. Besides, your lifestyle is promoted by the press 10x more than the frugal lifestyle is.
jckt 14y ago
Say what you will, but being frugal isn't necessarily akin to having a bad lifestyle -- I think his lifestyle is one that you may enjoy, too: http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/06/01/raising-a-family-on-under-2000-per-year/ http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/06/01/raising-a-family-o...
avenger123 14y ago
I don't believe he is going out of his way to criticize. First of all, the question of retiring is somewhat problematic. Ask the typical person if they could retire right now, what would they do? Doing leisure activities, going on trips, relaxing, etc. can only take one so far. As human beings we need to be productive (no matter how that is defined) for us to lead a healthy life. I believe the bigger issue is freedom. MMM's approach is very extreme and works for him. I do believe he lives on much more than 25K and works very hard. To him, the work he does might not classify as work. This is freedom for him. He is building a brand and knows how to market his brand. The big difference I would suggest is that he is absolutely debt-free. American consumerism and lifestyle, to some extent, is driven by credit. Getting a credit card has become a rite of passage. I like to follow the Dave Ramsey (http://www.daveramsey.com http://www.daveramsey.com) philosophy (I don't agree with all his advice but most of it is pretty sound). I've just come across Dave over the past year and I find his message and life story inspiring. His message is simple: 1) Get out of debt (goal is to be entirely out of debt - including house). Only acceptable debt is mortgage debt. 2) Cut-up your credit cards (I don't. Having self-control with this is a big part of it) 3) Save 3-6 months emergency fund 4) Invest 15% every year for retirement 5) Save a percentage for Kid's college 5) Buy a house that is within 25-30% of your monthly income 6) Buy cars, boats, etc (ie. toys) that is no more than half of your total income (at most) 7) Invest your money (He's a big believer in mutual funds which I believe ETFs are now a better choice) 8) Most importantly, stay out of debt. In this way, if you are making 100K a year or more going out for a $200 dinner or a $10K trip is fine since you are out of debt and all the major priorities are covered. In some sense, MMM's message is the same as Dave's but the difference is that Dave is a multi-millionaire and works just as hard as he did when he wasn't. He has no qualms about going out for dinner and spending $1000 as this puts no dent in his net worth.
- eloisant 14y ago
  His point to not to stop working, but stop being dependent of work. There are plenty of ways to stay productive, even make some money, but when the money is just a bonus and not necessary for mortgage payment it makes a big difference.
Madrigal 14y ago
I agree that he does not put us spenders in a very gracious light, but the main point he is making is that all those socially accepted (and desired) things have a cost, and if you sum them up you will see that you are spending more than you thought you were.
guylhem 14y ago
I'm in Turks and Caicos right now on a stretch of the most beautiful beach I've ever seen Hello my friend! Care to share where? I'd like to meet with fellow Caribbean entrepreneurs. I'm from Martinique, FWI. We do some good stuff too, yet I thought most of the scene was in T&T or Jamaica. T&C - why no!
- reledi 14y ago
  How he worded it, I believe he's there on vacation. Nice to see some people from the Caribbean here though. I'm from St. Maarten but I currently live in Canada. Do you know of any places where I can read more about the tech scene in the Caribbean?
  - guylhem 14y ago
    Right, vacations certainly. I overreacted :-/ Try linkedin - many groups are announced there. Most are "empty" (as in just full of spam), but some can provide you with links to an existing scene. As usual, the odds are higher where you have a bigger population. From SXM I'd recommend you get in touch with groups in Guadeloupe. There's a good lug, and quite active wifi/HAM style project. Get in touch by email (in my profile) if you want more details.
ssharp 14y ago
I think the reason his messaging is effecting is because he's being judgmental. Maybe he does it naturally, maybe it's on purpose, but I think if he used wishy-washy language, nuancing his points to tell people that some of their consumerism is okay, that it would hurt his ability to deliver his message. I think there is a side-effect to this, where people see what MMM is doing and take his advise to the extremes, failing to full think through their own personal situation. These sort of teachings tend to build some cult-ish/guru-type followings, but I think for the vast majority of people, the messages resonate on some level that allows them to either think about their spending choices more, or cut back. I see what he ultimately advocates as more of a "think about how you're spending your money" rather than "don't spend money".
epo 14y ago
You criticise him for being judgmental ... by being judgmental about him. Practice reading without taking things personally, it'll stand you in good stead.
nevinera 14y ago
It's part of his online persona, and it's the reason so many people are listening to him. That tone of disbelief is effective at making people look at their spending from a perspective many have never considered. That it irritates people who disagree probably doesn't bother or affect him much.
jgmjgm 14y ago
I'm sometimes surprised at comments like this that fail to appreciate that people can (and should!) have an opinion on things. People can be "judgmental" -- it's called having an opinion and it is not a bad thing. Requiring everyone to water down their opinions in order not to offend anyone (usually code for people with mainstream views) is truly offensive. In civil society we can all hold opinions and are able to express them. This is why democracies work so well -- at least better than all the alternatives! I'm a bit older than the average reader here, so perhaps I'm biased. It seems to me that many people raised in the toxic and simplistic battles between left and right in the US media don't seem to have much of an intuitive sense of civil debate. I think the lack of good examples may be one reason. In short: People have different opinions. If you don't agree, feel free to speak, but be civil.
to3m 14y ago
I suspect profligacy and indebtedness are criticized on the basis that many people who practice them come to regret it later, no matter how much of a good idea it seemed at the time, when they end up in poverty. A bit like how smoking cigarettes and/or eating an unhealthy diet and/or not taking exercise can lead to health problems.
intenex 14y ago
He's not judgmental about you as long as you don't complain about never having money to do things and never being able to save up money and not being able to earn enough/working too much/etc. etc. etc. He's judgmental about people who want to retire, wish they could save up money, have boatloads of debt, and complain incessantly about how unfair life is when they keep taking on piles of debt making luxury purchases and mismanaging their lives. That's all. As long as you're happy with your lifestyle choices and either 1. Make enough to be able to retire comfortably when you want to or 2. Won't complain when you're broke and impoverished in the future, then good for you!

Evbn 14y ago

GetRichSlowly, IIRC correctly is a much saner and more meaningful blog about personal finance for smart middle class people.

secabeen 14y ago
It was. Since JD left, its been much less personal and more corporate. Few of the writers resonate with me, and many of them come across as "here's the standard personal finance solution to X, described plainly".

fnordfnordfnord 14y ago

You don't have to listen to everything he says. Take the ideas that help you.

PKop 14y ago

But why? Seriously, why can't he come to his own conclusion about said lifestyle choices? You don't have to agree with him, but why can't he judge certain lifestyle choices as better or worse? Just as you have done for yourself. I think if he doesn't clearly define what he thinks is better and why, then what advice is he really providing? People can choose to agree or not, without taking it as a personal insult.

sanderjd 14y ago
Your parent is judging that his lifestyle choices are better for him while the subject of the interview is judging that his lifestyle choices are better for everyone. I'm not saying who is right or wrong, but let's not conflate the two different points being made.
- PKop 14y ago
  You're definitely right there is a distinction. I accept that, but still would argue why is it bad to make prescriptive suggestions for others lifestyles? He feels strongly that his choices are the right way (and is fighting against the notion that happiness and lower consumption, materialism, consumerism are mutually exclusive). Perhaps it is right for many people, and by making his judgements public, it will provide helpful information for others to be exposed to. Why is upsetting certain people by telling them that he disagrees with their lifestyle choices a bad thing, such that he should refrain from making these judgements public? OP seems to be saying, your judgements of my lifestyle hurt my feelings, and made me self conscious of my choices and that's bad... regardless of the positive effects of strongly and clearly stating his value judgements so as to cause people to critically examine their assumptions and choices. I think the OP's reaction is just the effect MMM would like to cause people to have, if it results in positive changes. If it rubs some people the wrong way, that's a side effect that's worth it. If people are confident in their choices they shouldn't care what this guy or anyone else says about them.
jamesaguilar 14y ago
It's not really the same. If I pick a lifestyle for myself, that's not a judgment on other people's lifestyles. If I pick a lifestyle then start calling other people wasteful, that is a judgment on others. Be it true or not, that rubs some people the wrong way. Personally I don't care if he judges me. He's living within a few tens of percent above the poverty line (based on his comments in this article). Of course the lifestyle of someone spending even $40k a year is going to seem wasteful to him.

wildgift 14y ago

Well, it's an article, and it's not like he's berating you personally. A less judgmental person would have made a less interesting subject. Besides, your lifestyle is promoted by the press 10x more than the frugal lifestyle is.

jckt 14y ago

Say what you will, but being frugal isn't necessarily akin to having a bad lifestyle -- I think his lifestyle is one that you may enjoy, too: http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/06/01/raising-a-family-on-under-2000-per-year/ http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/06/01/raising-a-family-o...

avenger123 14y ago

I don't believe he is going out of his way to criticize. First of all, the question of retiring is somewhat problematic. Ask the typical person if they could retire right now, what would they do? Doing leisure activities, going on trips, relaxing, etc. can only take one so far. As human beings we need to be productive (no matter how that is defined) for us to lead a healthy life. I believe the bigger issue is freedom. MMM's approach is very extreme and works for him. I do believe he lives on much more than 25K and works very hard. To him, the work he does might not classify as work. This is freedom for him. He is building a brand and knows how to market his brand. The big difference I would suggest is that he is absolutely debt-free. American consumerism and lifestyle, to some extent, is driven by credit. Getting a credit card has become a rite of passage. I like to follow the Dave Ramsey (http://www.daveramsey.com http://www.daveramsey.com) philosophy (I don't agree with all his advice but most of it is pretty sound). I've just come across Dave over the past year and I find his message and life story inspiring. His message is simple: 1) Get out of debt (goal is to be entirely out of debt - including house). Only acceptable debt is mortgage debt. 2) Cut-up your credit cards (I don't. Having self-control with this is a big part of it) 3) Save 3-6 months emergency fund 4) Invest 15% every year for retirement 5) Save a percentage for Kid's college 5) Buy a house that is within 25-30% of your monthly income 6) Buy cars, boats, etc (ie. toys) that is no more than half of your total income (at most) 7) Invest your money (He's a big believer in mutual funds which I believe ETFs are now a better choice) 8) Most importantly, stay out of debt. In this way, if you are making 100K a year or more going out for a $200 dinner or a $10K trip is fine since you are out of debt and all the major priorities are covered. In some sense, MMM's message is the same as Dave's but the difference is that Dave is a multi-millionaire and works just as hard as he did when he wasn't. He has no qualms about going out for dinner and spending $1000 as this puts no dent in his net worth.

eloisant 14y ago
His point to not to stop working, but stop being dependent of work. There are plenty of ways to stay productive, even make some money, but when the money is just a bonus and not necessary for mortgage payment it makes a big difference.

Madrigal 14y ago

I agree that he does not put us spenders in a very gracious light, but the main point he is making is that all those socially accepted (and desired) things have a cost, and if you sum them up you will see that you are spending more than you thought you were.

guylhem 14y ago

I'm in Turks and Caicos right now on a stretch of the most beautiful beach I've ever seen Hello my friend! Care to share where? I'd like to meet with fellow Caribbean entrepreneurs. I'm from Martinique, FWI. We do some good stuff too, yet I thought most of the scene was in T&T or Jamaica. T&C - why no!

reledi 14y ago
How he worded it, I believe he's there on vacation. Nice to see some people from the Caribbean here though. I'm from St. Maarten but I currently live in Canada. Do you know of any places where I can read more about the tech scene in the Caribbean?
- guylhem 14y ago
  Right, vacations certainly. I overreacted :-/ Try linkedin - many groups are announced there. Most are "empty" (as in just full of spam), but some can provide you with links to an existing scene. As usual, the odds are higher where you have a bigger population. From SXM I'd recommend you get in touch with groups in Guadeloupe. There's a good lug, and quite active wifi/HAM style project. Get in touch by email (in my profile) if you want more details.

ssharp 14y ago

I think the reason his messaging is effecting is because he's being judgmental. Maybe he does it naturally, maybe it's on purpose, but I think if he used wishy-washy language, nuancing his points to tell people that some of their consumerism is okay, that it would hurt his ability to deliver his message. I think there is a side-effect to this, where people see what MMM is doing and take his advise to the extremes, failing to full think through their own personal situation. These sort of teachings tend to build some cult-ish/guru-type followings, but I think for the vast majority of people, the messages resonate on some level that allows them to either think about their spending choices more, or cut back. I see what he ultimately advocates as more of a "think about how you're spending your money" rather than "don't spend money".

epo 14y ago

You criticise him for being judgmental ... by being judgmental about him. Practice reading without taking things personally, it'll stand you in good stead.

nevinera 14y ago

It's part of his online persona, and it's the reason so many people are listening to him. That tone of disbelief is effective at making people look at their spending from a perspective many have never considered. That it irritates people who disagree probably doesn't bother or affect him much.

jgmjgm 14y ago

I'm sometimes surprised at comments like this that fail to appreciate that people can (and should!) have an opinion on things. People can be "judgmental" -- it's called having an opinion and it is not a bad thing. Requiring everyone to water down their opinions in order not to offend anyone (usually code for people with mainstream views) is truly offensive. In civil society we can all hold opinions and are able to express them. This is why democracies work so well -- at least better than all the alternatives! I'm a bit older than the average reader here, so perhaps I'm biased. It seems to me that many people raised in the toxic and simplistic battles between left and right in the US media don't seem to have much of an intuitive sense of civil debate. I think the lack of good examples may be one reason. In short: People have different opinions. If you don't agree, feel free to speak, but be civil.

to3m 14y ago

I suspect profligacy and indebtedness are criticized on the basis that many people who practice them come to regret it later, no matter how much of a good idea it seemed at the time, when they end up in poverty. A bit like how smoking cigarettes and/or eating an unhealthy diet and/or not taking exercise can lead to health problems.

intenex 14y ago

He's not judgmental about you as long as you don't complain about never having money to do things and never being able to save up money and not being able to earn enough/working too much/etc. etc. etc. He's judgmental about people who want to retire, wish they could save up money, have boatloads of debt, and complain incessantly about how unfair life is when they keep taking on piles of debt making luxury purchases and mismanaging their lives. That's all. As long as you're happy with your lifestyle choices and either 1. Make enough to be able to retire comfortably when you want to or 2. Won't complain when you're broke and impoverished in the future, then good for you!