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"I just got an email from an engineering prospect who has decided to turn down our offer. We put so much time and effort and passion into recruiting him. He d

"I just got an email from an engineering prospect who has decided to turn down our offer. We put so much time and effort and passion into recruiting him. He decided he wants to go off and start his own company right now." I think more and more startup CEOs are figuring this out. At least, I'm telling every one I meet - for technical talent, you are not competing against the other startups in your neighborhood. Or even ones doing the same thing. Or startups in general. You're competing against the awesome developer doing their own thing. The cost of booting a startup is trending to zero. 10 years ago you'd need massive capital investment (servers, networking, etc.). I can spin up a Heroku server for free (or a series of AWS for nearly-free). I have super-powerful development environments (Ruby/Rails, Clojure/Lighttable, whatever) that are free or nearly so. Great infrastructure (Postgres, Unicorn, whatever) - free! All I need is a product idea and a vision and I can bootstrap my company. I can charge money on day one without needing a business checking account, LLC, and all that. What does this mean for you? As a startup founder, you are competing against a person owning 100% and running the show as they see fit. This is a completely different power dynamic and one that is going to be the new normal. You really need to have your stuff completely together in order to get the best people. It's very hard, but possible (I advise founders how to do that all the time). I'd also caution against "this person needs to be passionate about my idea or we won't" hire them. I see that all the time, too. Look, it's your baby; it's going to be very difficult to get them to love it as much as you do. Figure out what this person wants out of life (their career, whatever) that you can provide that they alone cannot (work from home, presenting/attending conferences, learning new technologies, mentoring, leading a team, education, building their personal brand, whatever). THAT'S how you get them. Constant tending to their needs and giving them opportunities to further their growth is how you KEEP them. What value are YOU bringing to the table other than an idea and some cash? Those are table stakes now. Good luck! :D

abstractbill 13y ago
Out of every startup advertising jobs right now, I think 500friends gets this better than anyone else: They simply acknowledge that their best hires are likely to want to start something of their own, and actually offer to fund it: http://venturebeat.com/2012/08/10/founders-beware-500friends-will-catch-your-developers-with-seed-capital-bait/ http://venturebeat.com/2012/08/10/founders-beware-500friends...
- benologist 13y ago
  I think that's exactly the right attitude to take. You're really just doing an 'apprenticeship' at one of these early-stage startups, make connections, get some practical experience, then go do what you really want to do.
- kanzure 13y ago
  IIRC their offer amounts to the size of a bonus, if anything.. Edit: of course, a bonus is better than no bonus. But why not just call it what it is?
  - Evbn 13y ago
    Their version is hipper marketing.
ry0ohki 13y ago
This is the worst part IMO, in theory it's great that everyone can have the freedom to do what they want, but the reality is most people don't have the skills, the right idea, etc... to make a successful startup and would have been better off working for someone else. Is this a unique problem to our industry? In a housing boom do construction people start making their own construction companies instead of working for others?
- cpursley 13y ago
  " do construction people start making their own construction companies instead of working for others?" Yes, they do.
- SkyMarshal 13y ago
  >but the reality is most people don't have the skills, the right idea, etc... to make a successful startup and would have been better off working for someone else. You never know that until hindsight, and the opportunity cost for finding out for yourself, whether a new college grad or an established (financially cushioned) engineer, is historically low.
- brandon272 13y ago
  What I witnessed during a regional housing boom where I live is exactly that: employees starting their own companies. So instead of paying a construction worker $25 an hour, you're suddenly paying his company $80 an hour for the same work. And you have little choice but to do so because part and parcel with the housing boom was a skilled labour shortage! And once the employee becomes a company, the companies hiring them were suddenly more limited in what they could demand and the workers were more inclined to set their own hours and do the work as they preferred because, as they saw it, they were now business owners who could do their own thing instead of an employee beholden to someone else's preferences on hours and work style. From what I saw, some individuals regretted that decision because as it turns out, despite some added flexibility, they just wanted to work as a plumber or an electrician. They didn't want to have the added responsibility of being a business owner.
  - 13y ago
timr 13y ago
Totally agree with the latter part -- nobody's baby is as fascinating to other people as it is to its parents -- but the argument against "doing a startup" is actually a pretty easy one, and any founder should be able to counter this kind of waffling applicant with a large number of realistic and effective arguments: * First off, doing a startup is not just about sitting in a dark room and writing code without a boss. It isn't even mostly about that. Your average engineer has no idea how much non-technical crap there is to do, and consequently has no idea that the things they like to do don't strongly overlap with the set of things they think they'll be doing as a startup founder. It isn't just pizza and coding sprints -- it's about talking to customers and coordinating with other people and marketing and finding photos and making spreadsheets and raising money and bookkeeping and filing idiotic paperwork with bureaucracies and diffusing personality conflicts and a million other things that good developers never think about and don't ever want to do. And if you succeed, your reward is more of that stuff and less coding. * Second is that you'll work like crazy and have to bear a lot of stress. That's the way it goes. Most people aren't cut out for that lifestyle. Doe-eyed college graduates, especially, haven't ever done a project that lasts more than a semester or two. They have no idea what they're getting into. * Third, if you don't have a co-founder, and you don't have any experience, you're doomed. Go work for someone else for a while. I know, I know...$FAMOUS_PERSON did it. They're the exception, not the rule. If you're in that situation, there's a litmus test: is your product currently built and exploding in popularity? Then you may be the next Zuckerberg. Otherwise, go work for someone else for a while. * Fourth, these days, most people confuse "doing a startup" with "making a cool feature". They're not even close to the same thing. I can't tell you the number of resumes I've seen from developers who made a half-baked marketplace website that they called a "startup", then gave up when the users didn't come and they realized that 99.999% of the work was ahead of them. Building the product is the first step, not the last one. * Fifth, just because it's cheap to rent server space and open-source means that you don't have to write CGI by hand doesn't mean the competitive landscape is easier. In fact, it's harder. For any idea you come up with, there are either 50 sophisticated, me-too competitors, or there will be within 10 minutes of you getting any publicity. The flip side of everything being cheap is that any bozo with a credit card can do it. ...I could go on and on with this. Point is, most developers have this hazy, romantic, idyllic notion of "doing a startup" that bears no resemblance to the actual thing. Communicate this honestly and clearly to someone when they're waffling between taking a job and going off on their own, and you've got chances. After all, anyone who's really ready to do a startup isn't going to be talking to you about a job. They're going to be doing a startup.
brandnewlow 13y ago
"The cost of booting a startup is trending to zero." This is true and it's great. Meanwhile, turning your just-booted startup into an actual growing business with payroll, HR, investors, customer support, etc is just as hard as it ever was. With our recruiting we too have people who pass in order to do their own thing. I wish them the best of luck, but wonder if they really know what they're in for sometimes.
logicallee 13y ago
Very humbly I wanted to ask about your idea, >The cost of booting a startup is trending to zero. 10 years ago you'd need massive capital investment (servers, networking, etc.). I can spin up a Heroku server for free (or a series of AWS for nearly-free). I have super-powerful development environments (Ruby/Rails, Clojure/Lighttable, whatever) that are free or nearly so. Great infrastructure (Postgres, Unicorn, whatever) - free! >All I need is a product idea and a vision and I can bootstrap my company. I can charge money on day one without needing a business checking account, LLC, and all that. I wonder, when you have enunciated it this clearly, whether you are able to at the same time entertain the thought that an idea is worthless? (or worth far less than 50% of the business)? you have just drawn an extremely vibrant photorealistic picture of a developer with everything at his or her disposal, who can bootstrap anything, from nothing. he or she is just sitting there. "All" he or she needs is a product idea and a vision. would you say that he or she wins by sitting there doing nothing as opposed to buying into someone else's dream who gives up 50% of it so this person can 'easily' execute on it? or would you still say that this is a market that shouldn't 'clear', and that the one owning the product vision should try to cobble together PHP, because his equity is worthless, and the one owning the engineering skillset should think what he's missing doesn't have any market value? thanks.
logicallee 13y ago
Very humbly I wanted to ask about your idea, >The cost of booting a startup is trending to zero. 10 years ago you'd need massive capital investment (servers, networking, etc.). I can spin up a Heroku server for free (or a series of AWS for nearly-free). I have super-powerful development environments (Ruby/Rails, Clojure/Lighttable, whatever) that are free or nearly so. Great infrastructure (Postgres, Unicorn, whatever) - free! >All I need is a product idea and a vision and I can bootstrap my company. I can charge money on day one without needing a business checking account, LLC, and all that. I wonder, when you have enunciated it this clearly, whether you are able to at the same time entertain the thought that an idea is worthless? (or worth far less than 50% of the business)? you have just drawn an extremely vibrant photorealistic picture of a developer with everything at his or her disposal, who can bootstrap anything, from nothing. he or she is just sitting there. "All" he or she needs is a product idea and a vision. would you say that he or she wins by sitting there doing nothing as opposed to buying into someone else's dream who gives up 50% of it so this person can 'easily' execute on it? or would you still say that this is a market that shouldn't 'clear', and that the one owning the product vision should try to cobble together PHP, because his equity is worthless, and the one owning the engineering skillset should think what he's missing doesn't have any market value? thanks.
orangethirty 13y ago
Tell me, givig your insight, how many successful businesses have you done? Im not being pedantic, but such statements must come from someone who has built at least 2 businsses following such system.
_pmf_ 13y ago
> You're competing against the awesome developer doing their own thing. Every developer can come of with delusional visions, ridiculous sales projections or greedy scamming schemes, but not every business person can develop software.
ChiperSoft 13y ago
> All I need is a product idea and a vision and I can bootstrap my company. I think you're omitting a key thing here. You can't do anything without time. Time comes at a cost. If you're building this startup as your day job then that cost is directly monetary, as you will either be living off savings or be supported by someone else. If you're bootstrapping in your part time then your cost is your free time and family time.

abstractbill 13y ago

Out of every startup advertising jobs right now, I think 500friends gets this better than anyone else: They simply acknowledge that their best hires are likely to want to start something of their own, and actually offer to fund it: http://venturebeat.com/2012/08/10/founders-beware-500friends-will-catch-your-developers-with-seed-capital-bait/ http://venturebeat.com/2012/08/10/founders-beware-500friends...

benologist 13y ago
I think that's exactly the right attitude to take. You're really just doing an 'apprenticeship' at one of these early-stage startups, make connections, get some practical experience, then go do what you really want to do.
kanzure 13y ago
IIRC their offer amounts to the size of a bonus, if anything.. Edit: of course, a bonus is better than no bonus. But why not just call it what it is?
- Evbn 13y ago
  Their version is hipper marketing.

ry0ohki 13y ago

This is the worst part IMO, in theory it's great that everyone can have the freedom to do what they want, but the reality is most people don't have the skills, the right idea, etc... to make a successful startup and would have been better off working for someone else. Is this a unique problem to our industry? In a housing boom do construction people start making their own construction companies instead of working for others?

cpursley 13y ago
" do construction people start making their own construction companies instead of working for others?" Yes, they do.
SkyMarshal 13y ago
>but the reality is most people don't have the skills, the right idea, etc... to make a successful startup and would have been better off working for someone else. You never know that until hindsight, and the opportunity cost for finding out for yourself, whether a new college grad or an established (financially cushioned) engineer, is historically low.
brandon272 13y ago
What I witnessed during a regional housing boom where I live is exactly that: employees starting their own companies. So instead of paying a construction worker $25 an hour, you're suddenly paying his company $80 an hour for the same work. And you have little choice but to do so because part and parcel with the housing boom was a skilled labour shortage! And once the employee becomes a company, the companies hiring them were suddenly more limited in what they could demand and the workers were more inclined to set their own hours and do the work as they preferred because, as they saw it, they were now business owners who could do their own thing instead of an employee beholden to someone else's preferences on hours and work style. From what I saw, some individuals regretted that decision because as it turns out, despite some added flexibility, they just wanted to work as a plumber or an electrician. They didn't want to have the added responsibility of being a business owner.
- 13y ago

timr 13y ago

Totally agree with the latter part -- nobody's baby is as fascinating to other people as it is to its parents -- but the argument against "doing a startup" is actually a pretty easy one, and any founder should be able to counter this kind of waffling applicant with a large number of realistic and effective arguments: * First off, doing a startup is not just about sitting in a dark room and writing code without a boss. It isn't even mostly about that. Your average engineer has no idea how much non-technical crap there is to do, and consequently has no idea that the things they like to do don't strongly overlap with the set of things they think they'll be doing as a startup founder. It isn't just pizza and coding sprints -- it's about talking to customers and coordinating with other people and marketing and finding photos and making spreadsheets and raising money and bookkeeping and filing idiotic paperwork with bureaucracies and diffusing personality conflicts and a million other things that good developers never think about and don't ever want to do. And if you succeed, your reward is more of that stuff and less coding. * Second is that you'll work like crazy and have to bear a lot of stress. That's the way it goes. Most people aren't cut out for that lifestyle. Doe-eyed college graduates, especially, haven't ever done a project that lasts more than a semester or two. They have no idea what they're getting into. * Third, if you don't have a co-founder, and you don't have any experience, you're doomed. Go work for someone else for a while. I know, I know...$FAMOUS_PERSON did it. They're the exception, not the rule. If you're in that situation, there's a litmus test: is your product currently built and exploding in popularity? Then you may be the next Zuckerberg. Otherwise, go work for someone else for a while. * Fourth, these days, most people confuse "doing a startup" with "making a cool feature". They're not even close to the same thing. I can't tell you the number of resumes I've seen from developers who made a half-baked marketplace website that they called a "startup", then gave up when the users didn't come and they realized that 99.999% of the work was ahead of them. Building the product is the first step, not the last one. * Fifth, just because it's cheap to rent server space and open-source means that you don't have to write CGI by hand doesn't mean the competitive landscape is easier. In fact, it's harder. For any idea you come up with, there are either 50 sophisticated, me-too competitors, or there will be within 10 minutes of you getting any publicity. The flip side of everything being cheap is that any bozo with a credit card can do it. ...I could go on and on with this. Point is, most developers have this hazy, romantic, idyllic notion of "doing a startup" that bears no resemblance to the actual thing. Communicate this honestly and clearly to someone when they're waffling between taking a job and going off on their own, and you've got chances. After all, anyone who's really ready to do a startup isn't going to be talking to you about a job. They're going to be doing a startup.

brandnewlow 13y ago

"The cost of booting a startup is trending to zero." This is true and it's great. Meanwhile, turning your just-booted startup into an actual growing business with payroll, HR, investors, customer support, etc is just as hard as it ever was. With our recruiting we too have people who pass in order to do their own thing. I wish them the best of luck, but wonder if they really know what they're in for sometimes.

logicallee 13y ago

Very humbly I wanted to ask about your idea, >The cost of booting a startup is trending to zero. 10 years ago you'd need massive capital investment (servers, networking, etc.). I can spin up a Heroku server for free (or a series of AWS for nearly-free). I have super-powerful development environments (Ruby/Rails, Clojure/Lighttable, whatever) that are free or nearly so. Great infrastructure (Postgres, Unicorn, whatever) - free! >All I need is a product idea and a vision and I can bootstrap my company. I can charge money on day one without needing a business checking account, LLC, and all that. I wonder, when you have enunciated it this clearly, whether you are able to at the same time entertain the thought that an idea is worthless? (or worth far less than 50% of the business)? you have just drawn an extremely vibrant photorealistic picture of a developer with everything at his or her disposal, who can bootstrap anything, from nothing. he or she is just sitting there. "All" he or she needs is a product idea and a vision. would you say that he or she wins by sitting there doing nothing as opposed to buying into someone else's dream who gives up 50% of it so this person can 'easily' execute on it? or would you still say that this is a market that shouldn't 'clear', and that the one owning the product vision should try to cobble together PHP, because his equity is worthless, and the one owning the engineering skillset should think what he's missing doesn't have any market value? thanks.

logicallee 13y ago

orangethirty 13y ago

Tell me, givig your insight, how many successful businesses have you done? Im not being pedantic, but such statements must come from someone who has built at least 2 businsses following such system.

_pmf_ 13y ago

> You're competing against the awesome developer doing their own thing. Every developer can come of with delusional visions, ridiculous sales projections or greedy scamming schemes, but not every business person can develop software.

ChiperSoft 13y ago

> All I need is a product idea and a vision and I can bootstrap my company. I think you're omitting a key thing here. You can't do anything without time. Time comes at a cost. If you're building this startup as your day job then that cost is directly monetary, as you will either be living off savings or be supported by someone else. If you're bootstrapping in your part time then your cost is your free time and family time.