7 ms·

Job hunting experience (and few advices)

26 points by rmldsky 13y ago

elhum 13y ago
You'd be better off sending your CV as a PDF, that way there are no 'corruption' issues.
- reidrac 13y ago
  I always use PDF, but most agencies will ask you for the CV in an editable format. I specially dislike that, but if you think about it nothing prevents them to copy & paste into a doc document (well, if they ask for an editable format may be they lack the skills to do it, who knows!).
  - iaskwhy 13y ago
    Well, they are trying to help you get a job, they have a better idea on how to do it so the least you could do is provide them with the information they need. Given that most people still use Windows, I would, at least, send a Word document with the PDF. You can also send the ODT, nothing against that.
    - reidrac 13y ago
      I never send an ODT, just a PDF. My feeling is that it is just a business for them (as in not "helping me") and they will change anything in my CV (yes, lie; or worse: it will look like I lied) to get me an interview and get their share. The downside of this approach is that I will lose my time with a job interview I can't pass because I'm not a good match. I know that not all agencies work that way, but some do.
    - tcwc 13y ago
      They don't do this to help you get a job. Recruiters insist on an editable version so they can remove your contact details and insert their letterhead. This makes it harder for their clients to contact you directly and cut out their fee.
      - fecak 13y ago
        Recruiter here. Another bigger reason for inserting letterhead is so when the company finds the résumé in their DB 6 months later and revisits the candidate, the manager knows the source of hire (and the possibility of a fee).
      - iaskwhy 13y ago
        I'm sure that happens sometimes but I've seen lots of CVs coming from recruiters which had new sections crafted by the recruiters themselves like a summary of why I should care about that person, etc. They depend on me hiring that person to get their fee so I expect them to provide me more than the CV itself.
  - mooktakim 13y ago
    They do this so they can remove your contact details and also sometimes they like to add a "cover" page with the details of their agency.
- lflux 13y ago
  When I review CVs I prefer them to be in PDF than DOC. Then again, an ODT is better than a link to a very sparse LinkedIn profile.
ninjay 13y ago
I'm graduating soon from a top university (not Ivy League though) with a masters in CS. I've interviewed with 4 companies so far and 2 of them have just never gotten back to me. One of them was after 4 interviews including a 4 hour coding test. I sent several emails, but just silence. I can only attribute this behavior to cowardice. I guess they (HR) are just to afraid to be upfront. I apply to one company at a time so they have my full attention. Finding out I waited around for nothing makes me rage. It's so incredibly rude to treat people like that. I want to start a list of companies that do this. Make them accountable, or at least keep people from wasting time. In fact, here they are: SpaceX (4 hour code interview, then nothing), LogicMonitor
- jdotjdot 13y ago
  You got lucky with SpaceX. From what I hear, it's a sweatshop, with minimum 70 hour weeks and 120-hour weeks not unheard of.
  - jk4930 13y ago
    One joins SpaceX with a sense of mission and urgency. Their rate of progress comes with a price. That should be clear upfront.
    - jdotjdot 13y ago
      I'm of the school of thought that that kind of life isn't "a price," it's poor management. Work quality (as well as employee health) decreases with incredible speed under those kinds of conditions, with very real permanent damage possible. I don't know if it's clear upfront or not; I never was looking to interview there. But "a sense of mission and urgency" is no excuse for what can only be considered labor abuse.
      - jk4930 13y ago
        If one wants to work for SpaceX we can assume that he's at least aware of the space industry environment and SpaceX's goals to get to Mars by the end of this decade (plus some years of buffer). It should be clear that SpaceX utilizes the available (human) resources intensively to iterate quickly over new design approaches. I'm positive that with a more cosy, relaxed way grasshopper wouldn't safely land and no Dragon would dock at the ISS. In this case SpaceX wouldn't exist any longer.
gearoidoc 13y ago
My advice? Come to Dublin instead! Loads of Ruby/Rails jobs, an ace startup scene in an exciting city and the friendliest people in the world :)
- hilko 13y ago
  Berlin also needs RoR developers. In fact, I think my place of work is looking.
- fendale 13y ago
  Is there somewhere Dublin startups tend to advertise openings? I'm in Belfast and I have wondered in the recent past if there would be any opportunities to work semi-remotely for a Dublin based startup. There is plenty of work in Belfast, but it tends to be Java / .net developers for big corporations.
  - gearoidoc 13y ago
    RubyJobs (http://www.rubyjobs.ie/jobs http://www.rubyjobs.ie/jobs) sometimes has startup positions listed but your best bet is to just pop down to a Ruby meetup (http://www.rubyireland.com/ http://www.rubyireland.com/) cos there's where all the startup peeps hang out. The first line of dialogue with practically anyone at these things is "Are you looking for a job" - but obviously the more well known you are in the community the more often you'll be asked. My experience is relatively limited (about 5.5 dev years) but once you've a good reputation then you'll never have to look for another job - it'll be lined up for you. Until the bubble bursts that is! I also know a good recruiter (one or two exist!) who does work for the odd startup if you're interested in taking that route. Email me (ger [at] getchoocreations.com) if you're interested.
shrikant 13y ago
I can completely understand his frustration with being put on the spot without much of a warning. I had applied for a data analyst position with a "Big 4" shop, and after an initial phone screen, was asked to come in for an "aptitude test". After probing for details, all I was told was that this test would be around data analysis in my domain (which happened to be retail banking credit risk), with no further details about the format or structure. Imagine my surprise when I came in, and realised it was a written test! That's right -- I had 40 minutes to write down detailed answers to questions on sheets of paper. One of these questions was a couple of tables and required me to write SQL queries that did a couple of operations on the tables. All with pencil and paper. I spent about 5 minutes of the allotted time just re-acquainting myself with the 'art' of penmanship, and ended up focusing more on legibility than content (my handwriting is atrocious, barely more than a chicken scrawl). Needless to say, I didn't get the job. And the kicker was, the HR chap said they would provide feedback on why I was unsuccessful, but never did, despite repeated follow-up attempts. Bah, humbug.
csl 13y ago
For anyone willing to relocate, Norway is desperate for engineers and developers. Everybody gets 25 days vacation, near-free medical services, insurance and pension covered by employer, 40-hour working week being the norm, etc.
- precisioncoder 13y ago
  I don't live in Norway but I do want to say if you get the chance to go there it may be worthwhile... After all they are #1 in the world on the human development index... http://hdrstats.undp.org/en/countries/profiles/NOR.html http://hdrstats.undp.org/en/countries/profiles/NOR.html
- trobertson 13y ago
  Do you know any of those companies offhand? I'm looking around for jobs right now, but wouldn't know where to start looking for Norwegian jobs.
  - kal00ma 13y ago
    no.indeed.com indexes all the major norwegian job sites. I suggest going there and just searching for "python" or "java" in the "hva" (what) field. Also, ARM has a branch in Trondheim and last I saw they were hiring software engineers.
- zizee 13y ago
  What sort of salary does an experience developer earn in Norway vs cost of living?
  - kal00ma 13y ago
    Salaries aren't as awesome as in San Francisco. As an entry level dev you'll make around 450000-500000NOK (~80k USD). With a Master's or more experience, working in the private sector you get ~100k USD. Cost of living is significantly higher than in the states, but you get healthcare for free, and if you don't eat out every night or buy flashy cars you'll be fine financially.
- 13y ago
cpayne 13y ago
All I can say is - welcome to the real world! Remember, an agency only makes money when they place you. I know it sucks, but that's the harsh reality. I now just accept that unless they do come back to you, the answer is no. I've been doing this for a few years now and seen companies that ask you to do a +1 hour technical test. I can't imagine what they are looking for, but know it isn't me. Maybe they are just testing the market? Maybe they want to know if they are paying their developers too much? How bad do you want to work for a place like that? Sometimes you never can tell, just chalk it down to a bad experience and move on...
rumcajz 13y ago
One thing I don't get are the automated tests. Assuming that average hourly rate is $50, the developer spends $100 of his time doing the test and thus showing commitment to reach an agreement about the job. The company, on the other hand, spends nothing and thus makes no commitment whatsoever. The proposition is not atractive in any way unless you are completely desperate. So, the company is basically selecting for the worst developers. Is there any point I've missed?
- swinnipeg 13y ago
  You still spend 2 "unbillable" hours of your life if it is a phone call instead of a test. And obviously there will be some costs to the company, the test didn't develop itself, and there is likely a developer reviewing the code after completion. In this case the developer is in a different city, the test appears to be designed to see if it is worthwhile to bring him in for further interview.
  - rumcajz 13y ago
    If it is a phone call, the company is spending money/time as well. It's mutual commitment. Developing test beforehand requires no commitment ($0) to particular applicant. There's no commitment. As for reviewing, I've seen A/B/C/D tests out there. These can be evaluated automatically. So once again, no commitment. Now, the point is than anyone -- if there's an option -- prefers situation where there's at least some commitment from the other side. Thus, the guys with automated tests are going to hire only developers which have no other choice. It looks like they are shooting themselves in the foot.
- atc 13y ago
  Time is money. The company spends money having their employees testing candidates.
evolve2k 13y ago
I'm looking for remote ruby work for ~25 hours a week. Anyone have tips on landing part-time remote work?
ivix 13y ago
I sent him my CV only to be told it "was corrupt and unreadable" and that he couldn't open it. I had to convert my "corrupt" ODT file to a MS Doc file. Lose this attitude, fast. Do you want to convince recruitment agents to change their word processor, or do you want to find a job?
- Dirlewanger 13y ago
  Seriously, these guys are offering a service you desperately need. Get over the fact they're not as tech-savvy as you; they possibly have the connections you need. People skills, people.
  - wink 13y ago
    Wait a moment, nowhere did he say "these morons couldn't open an ODT file". I read it just as a baffling moment. He did resend it after all...
- bgdnpn 13y ago
  I always send my CV in PDF format.
  - bluedino 13y ago
    I used to do this, until about the third time I was asked to just send a .doc Some automated HR systems can parse out a Word document but can't do anything with a PDF.
  - offdrey 13y ago
    So do I, but a lot of agencies insist on Word format, because it's easier for them to hide your contact details when they send the CV to their clients.
- fakeer 13y ago
  But why would anyone send a CV in a text format until and unless specifically asked, which usually happens when the HR needs to edit the file to convert it to some company wide practised format, for reasons known by them or above almighty. Everyone sends the PDF.
pathy 13y ago
"Second agency: After talking to this agency that specialises in Ruby work, I sent him my CV only to be told it "was corrupt and unreadable" and that he couldn't open it. I had to convert my "corrupt" ODT file to a MS Doc file." Why on earth would you send an recruiter/agency an ODT file? I mean sure, I get that you want to use Open/Libre Office but it is hardly standard for any company so using it seems rather silly. If you are gonna send your CV, make it easy for the recruiters or agencies to read it.
- jdotjdot 13y ago
  Agreed. Not everyone is aware of OpenOffice (or even if they are, of what the .odt extension refers to), and PDF is probably the best way to go. If you're really against proprietary formats, why don't you just create a simple HTML/CSS webpage, supported by all browsers?
auctiontheory 13y ago
Many of the anecdotes related here remind me of my own first job-hunting experience - not in a good way. Best advice I ever got? Read Ask The Headhunter. It's not all about you. These employers have a problem to be solved - that's why they're hiring. Figure out what their problem is, and how you can solve it for them.
currycoder 13y ago
Congratulations! You've had your horrific first interview. Mine was slightly kinder to me - kicked off with a friendly chat and then annotating code/explaining an algorithm. It took a nose dive - much like yours - when I was asked to write simple classes representing a retail store on one of the interviewer's Asus Transformer. An android device with a notepad app. Its a learning experience. What I did immediately when getting home was write the damn task to completion to prove I could do it. Mainly what interviewers are wanting you to do in that kind of task is vocalise what you're thinking. It's useful to them since you're showing a logical approach to understanding and breaking down the problem. You show that you're a communicator. It's useful to you since you're talking it aloud and generally this allows you to avoid pitfalls before they happen. I don't think you're going to completely avoid this kind of task in future interviews, so practice with a friend! Don't get too disheartened - this experience is one that a lot of grad coders will have and now reviewing it and improving is a task that will let you kick ass in future.
atc 13y ago
I think the market in the UK for contracts is awful right now, so a combination of lack of experience and bad timing.
jijji 13y ago
I will admit that I solved this "problem" around 1994 just by simply automating the process of searching and responding to jobs. So, once you realize that really what you're dealing with is a numbers game here, you'll come to realize that automation is the key to it. I will admit that I've never had a problem finding a job, only because I get 20 calls per day when I chmod 755 /etc/cron.daily/find_jobs.sh... Sorry to let the cat out of the bag.

26 points by rmldsky 13y ago

elhum 13y ago

You'd be better off sending your CV as a PDF, that way there are no 'corruption' issues.

reidrac 13y ago
I always use PDF, but most agencies will ask you for the CV in an editable format. I specially dislike that, but if you think about it nothing prevents them to copy & paste into a doc document (well, if they ask for an editable format may be they lack the skills to do it, who knows!).
- iaskwhy 13y ago
  Well, they are trying to help you get a job, they have a better idea on how to do it so the least you could do is provide them with the information they need. Given that most people still use Windows, I would, at least, send a Word document with the PDF. You can also send the ODT, nothing against that.
  - reidrac 13y ago
    I never send an ODT, just a PDF. My feeling is that it is just a business for them (as in not "helping me") and they will change anything in my CV (yes, lie; or worse: it will look like I lied) to get me an interview and get their share. The downside of this approach is that I will lose my time with a job interview I can't pass because I'm not a good match. I know that not all agencies work that way, but some do.
  - tcwc 13y ago
    They don't do this to help you get a job. Recruiters insist on an editable version so they can remove your contact details and insert their letterhead. This makes it harder for their clients to contact you directly and cut out their fee.
    - fecak 13y ago
      Recruiter here. Another bigger reason for inserting letterhead is so when the company finds the résumé in their DB 6 months later and revisits the candidate, the manager knows the source of hire (and the possibility of a fee).
    - iaskwhy 13y ago
      I'm sure that happens sometimes but I've seen lots of CVs coming from recruiters which had new sections crafted by the recruiters themselves like a summary of why I should care about that person, etc. They depend on me hiring that person to get their fee so I expect them to provide me more than the CV itself.
- mooktakim 13y ago
  They do this so they can remove your contact details and also sometimes they like to add a "cover" page with the details of their agency.
lflux 13y ago
When I review CVs I prefer them to be in PDF than DOC. Then again, an ODT is better than a link to a very sparse LinkedIn profile.

ninjay 13y ago

I'm graduating soon from a top university (not Ivy League though) with a masters in CS. I've interviewed with 4 companies so far and 2 of them have just never gotten back to me. One of them was after 4 interviews including a 4 hour coding test. I sent several emails, but just silence. I can only attribute this behavior to cowardice. I guess they (HR) are just to afraid to be upfront. I apply to one company at a time so they have my full attention. Finding out I waited around for nothing makes me rage. It's so incredibly rude to treat people like that. I want to start a list of companies that do this. Make them accountable, or at least keep people from wasting time. In fact, here they are: SpaceX (4 hour code interview, then nothing), LogicMonitor

jdotjdot 13y ago
You got lucky with SpaceX. From what I hear, it's a sweatshop, with minimum 70 hour weeks and 120-hour weeks not unheard of.
- jk4930 13y ago
  One joins SpaceX with a sense of mission and urgency. Their rate of progress comes with a price. That should be clear upfront.
  - jdotjdot 13y ago
    I'm of the school of thought that that kind of life isn't "a price," it's poor management. Work quality (as well as employee health) decreases with incredible speed under those kinds of conditions, with very real permanent damage possible. I don't know if it's clear upfront or not; I never was looking to interview there. But "a sense of mission and urgency" is no excuse for what can only be considered labor abuse.
    - jk4930 13y ago
      If one wants to work for SpaceX we can assume that he's at least aware of the space industry environment and SpaceX's goals to get to Mars by the end of this decade (plus some years of buffer). It should be clear that SpaceX utilizes the available (human) resources intensively to iterate quickly over new design approaches. I'm positive that with a more cosy, relaxed way grasshopper wouldn't safely land and no Dragon would dock at the ISS. In this case SpaceX wouldn't exist any longer.

gearoidoc 13y ago

My advice? Come to Dublin instead! Loads of Ruby/Rails jobs, an ace startup scene in an exciting city and the friendliest people in the world :)

hilko 13y ago
Berlin also needs RoR developers. In fact, I think my place of work is looking.
fendale 13y ago
Is there somewhere Dublin startups tend to advertise openings? I'm in Belfast and I have wondered in the recent past if there would be any opportunities to work semi-remotely for a Dublin based startup. There is plenty of work in Belfast, but it tends to be Java / .net developers for big corporations.
- gearoidoc 13y ago
  RubyJobs (http://www.rubyjobs.ie/jobs http://www.rubyjobs.ie/jobs) sometimes has startup positions listed but your best bet is to just pop down to a Ruby meetup (http://www.rubyireland.com/ http://www.rubyireland.com/) cos there's where all the startup peeps hang out. The first line of dialogue with practically anyone at these things is "Are you looking for a job" - but obviously the more well known you are in the community the more often you'll be asked. My experience is relatively limited (about 5.5 dev years) but once you've a good reputation then you'll never have to look for another job - it'll be lined up for you. Until the bubble bursts that is! I also know a good recruiter (one or two exist!) who does work for the odd startup if you're interested in taking that route. Email me (ger [at] getchoocreations.com) if you're interested.

shrikant 13y ago

I can completely understand his frustration with being put on the spot without much of a warning. I had applied for a data analyst position with a "Big 4" shop, and after an initial phone screen, was asked to come in for an "aptitude test". After probing for details, all I was told was that this test would be around data analysis in my domain (which happened to be retail banking credit risk), with no further details about the format or structure. Imagine my surprise when I came in, and realised it was a written test! That's right -- I had 40 minutes to write down detailed answers to questions on sheets of paper. One of these questions was a couple of tables and required me to write SQL queries that did a couple of operations on the tables. All with pencil and paper. I spent about 5 minutes of the allotted time just re-acquainting myself with the 'art' of penmanship, and ended up focusing more on legibility than content (my handwriting is atrocious, barely more than a chicken scrawl). Needless to say, I didn't get the job. And the kicker was, the HR chap said they would provide feedback on why I was unsuccessful, but never did, despite repeated follow-up attempts. Bah, humbug.

csl 13y ago

For anyone willing to relocate, Norway is desperate for engineers and developers. Everybody gets 25 days vacation, near-free medical services, insurance and pension covered by employer, 40-hour working week being the norm, etc.

precisioncoder 13y ago
I don't live in Norway but I do want to say if you get the chance to go there it may be worthwhile... After all they are #1 in the world on the human development index... http://hdrstats.undp.org/en/countries/profiles/NOR.html http://hdrstats.undp.org/en/countries/profiles/NOR.html
trobertson 13y ago
Do you know any of those companies offhand? I'm looking around for jobs right now, but wouldn't know where to start looking for Norwegian jobs.
- kal00ma 13y ago
  no.indeed.com indexes all the major norwegian job sites. I suggest going there and just searching for "python" or "java" in the "hva" (what) field. Also, ARM has a branch in Trondheim and last I saw they were hiring software engineers.
zizee 13y ago
What sort of salary does an experience developer earn in Norway vs cost of living?
- kal00ma 13y ago
  Salaries aren't as awesome as in San Francisco. As an entry level dev you'll make around 450000-500000NOK (~80k USD). With a Master's or more experience, working in the private sector you get ~100k USD. Cost of living is significantly higher than in the states, but you get healthcare for free, and if you don't eat out every night or buy flashy cars you'll be fine financially.
13y ago

cpayne 13y ago

All I can say is - welcome to the real world! Remember, an agency only makes money when they place you. I know it sucks, but that's the harsh reality. I now just accept that unless they do come back to you, the answer is no. I've been doing this for a few years now and seen companies that ask you to do a +1 hour technical test. I can't imagine what they are looking for, but know it isn't me. Maybe they are just testing the market? Maybe they want to know if they are paying their developers too much? How bad do you want to work for a place like that? Sometimes you never can tell, just chalk it down to a bad experience and move on...

rumcajz 13y ago

One thing I don't get are the automated tests. Assuming that average hourly rate is $50, the developer spends $100 of his time doing the test and thus showing commitment to reach an agreement about the job. The company, on the other hand, spends nothing and thus makes no commitment whatsoever. The proposition is not atractive in any way unless you are completely desperate. So, the company is basically selecting for the worst developers. Is there any point I've missed?

swinnipeg 13y ago
You still spend 2 "unbillable" hours of your life if it is a phone call instead of a test. And obviously there will be some costs to the company, the test didn't develop itself, and there is likely a developer reviewing the code after completion. In this case the developer is in a different city, the test appears to be designed to see if it is worthwhile to bring him in for further interview.
- rumcajz 13y ago
  If it is a phone call, the company is spending money/time as well. It's mutual commitment. Developing test beforehand requires no commitment ($0) to particular applicant. There's no commitment. As for reviewing, I've seen A/B/C/D tests out there. These can be evaluated automatically. So once again, no commitment. Now, the point is than anyone -- if there's an option -- prefers situation where there's at least some commitment from the other side. Thus, the guys with automated tests are going to hire only developers which have no other choice. It looks like they are shooting themselves in the foot.
atc 13y ago
Time is money. The company spends money having their employees testing candidates.

evolve2k 13y ago

I'm looking for remote ruby work for ~25 hours a week. Anyone have tips on landing part-time remote work?

ivix 13y ago

I sent him my CV only to be told it "was corrupt and unreadable" and that he couldn't open it. I had to convert my "corrupt" ODT file to a MS Doc file. Lose this attitude, fast. Do you want to convince recruitment agents to change their word processor, or do you want to find a job?

Dirlewanger 13y ago
Seriously, these guys are offering a service you desperately need. Get over the fact they're not as tech-savvy as you; they possibly have the connections you need. People skills, people.
- wink 13y ago
  Wait a moment, nowhere did he say "these morons couldn't open an ODT file". I read it just as a baffling moment. He did resend it after all...
bgdnpn 13y ago
I always send my CV in PDF format.
- bluedino 13y ago
  I used to do this, until about the third time I was asked to just send a .doc Some automated HR systems can parse out a Word document but can't do anything with a PDF.
- offdrey 13y ago
  So do I, but a lot of agencies insist on Word format, because it's easier for them to hide your contact details when they send the CV to their clients.
fakeer 13y ago
But why would anyone send a CV in a text format until and unless specifically asked, which usually happens when the HR needs to edit the file to convert it to some company wide practised format, for reasons known by them or above almighty. Everyone sends the PDF.

pathy 13y ago

"Second agency: After talking to this agency that specialises in Ruby work, I sent him my CV only to be told it "was corrupt and unreadable" and that he couldn't open it. I had to convert my "corrupt" ODT file to a MS Doc file." Why on earth would you send an recruiter/agency an ODT file? I mean sure, I get that you want to use Open/Libre Office but it is hardly standard for any company so using it seems rather silly. If you are gonna send your CV, make it easy for the recruiters or agencies to read it.

jdotjdot 13y ago
Agreed. Not everyone is aware of OpenOffice (or even if they are, of what the .odt extension refers to), and PDF is probably the best way to go. If you're really against proprietary formats, why don't you just create a simple HTML/CSS webpage, supported by all browsers?

auctiontheory 13y ago

Many of the anecdotes related here remind me of my own first job-hunting experience - not in a good way. Best advice I ever got? Read Ask The Headhunter. It's not all about you. These employers have a problem to be solved - that's why they're hiring. Figure out what their problem is, and how you can solve it for them.

currycoder 13y ago

Congratulations! You've had your horrific first interview. Mine was slightly kinder to me - kicked off with a friendly chat and then annotating code/explaining an algorithm. It took a nose dive - much like yours - when I was asked to write simple classes representing a retail store on one of the interviewer's Asus Transformer. An android device with a notepad app. Its a learning experience. What I did immediately when getting home was write the damn task to completion to prove I could do it. Mainly what interviewers are wanting you to do in that kind of task is vocalise what you're thinking. It's useful to them since you're showing a logical approach to understanding and breaking down the problem. You show that you're a communicator. It's useful to you since you're talking it aloud and generally this allows you to avoid pitfalls before they happen. I don't think you're going to completely avoid this kind of task in future interviews, so practice with a friend! Don't get too disheartened - this experience is one that a lot of grad coders will have and now reviewing it and improving is a task that will let you kick ass in future.

atc 13y ago

I think the market in the UK for contracts is awful right now, so a combination of lack of experience and bad timing.

jijji 13y ago

I will admit that I solved this "problem" around 1994 just by simply automating the process of searching and responding to jobs. So, once you realize that really what you're dealing with is a numbers game here, you'll come to realize that automation is the key to it. I will admit that I've never had a problem finding a job, only because I get 20 calls per day when I chmod 755 /etc/cron.daily/find_jobs.sh... Sorry to let the cat out of the bag.