8 ms·

I can't speak to whether admissions officers are, consciously or not, discriminating against Asians. What I can contribute, however, are my (admittedly anecdot

I can't speak to whether admissions officers are, consciously or not, discriminating against Asians. What I can contribute, however, are my (admittedly anecdotal) experiences with Asian households, and my own personal experience with the college application process. I am not Asian. Probably because of my own interest in sciences and mathematics, many of my friends in high school were Asian. They tended to excel in schoolwork, in no small part because they were under huge amounts of pressure from their parents. I'm not saying that all Asian families "force" their children to study ad-nauseum, but the "high expectations Asian father" Internet meme is at least somewhat based in truth, stereotyped or not. Because of this pressure (and supportive culture of success), Asians tend do incredibly well in school, as well as on standardized tests... but the more they study, the proportionally less time they have to do other activities that make students "well-rounded," which is one of the qualities that top-tier universities value. My personal college application process involved SAT scores that were very good, and a GPA that was solid but somewhat average. However, I had done several sports in high school, done a considerable amount of community service, had three technical jobs (two as a developer, one as a security analyst), and released open source software--all while passing my classes. I was passionate about computer science, and I believe that that helped me gain admission to very good universities. I'm not trying to "blame the victim" with this comment--it may very well be that admissions officers harbor prejudices against Asians--but I also think it's worth noting that when you're talking about the top-tier of our education system--the Stanfords, Harvards and MITs of the world--great grades aren't enough to gain admission.

fatjokes 13y ago
I'm willing to believe that this is what US universities are aiming for (i.e., "well-roundedness", passion vs. nurture, etc.) However, believing than an Asian kid did well on his scores / science competitions simply because a lot of Asian kids are pressured at home is called prejudice and extremely unfair to the kid in question. One (Asian) acquaintance of mine had great passion to be a computer scientist and pursued it against the wishes of his parents... who wanted him to be a doctor.
- newnewnew 13y ago
  Explaining away someone's personal success because of their race is a particularly nasty thing to do to someone. Unfortunately, I see it happen all the time.
- jpatokal 13y ago
  No, it's stereotyping, which is not quite the same. He's saying that parental pressure is a major factor in why a lot of Asian kids do well on their tests (hence the, yes, stereotypical "Asian father" meme); not that every Asian kid who does well does so only because of parental pressure (which would be prejudice).
rada 13y ago
The article discussed this extensively: these well-rounded-ness requirements are arbitrary, having been introduced in the 20's with the sole purpose of keeping out jewish students. While it may very well be true that the average asian applicant plays less sports than the average white applicant, it doesn't have any relevance to the applicant's aptitude for computer science.
- david_shaw 13y ago
  I agree with you completely; however, if Harvard (for example) wants to find the next "leaders in business, innovation and politics," they are likely seeking people who've shown drive in their chosen fields. For example, when I look to hire developers who are recent or soon-to-be college graduates, I may glance briefly at their GPA. While I care that they didn't flunk their classes (and aptitude in their language of choice is certainly important), I check to see what projects they did on the side. What open source software did they release or contribute to? Did they launch mobile or webapps while studying? Are they conversant in current events around their field of choice? To me, passion is more important than grades or even degrees--in business. My question, which I believe is the same one posed in the article, is whether it is appropriate for schools to evaluate on that metric, too.
  - candybar 13y ago
    You're severely overestimating the ability of Harvard admissions officers to evaluate those traits based on college applications. You can at least narrow the scope to a single professional area in which the candidate must excel to do the job well. Do you think an average Harvard admissions officer can evaluate open-source projects? Or similar types of accomplishments in other specialized areas? They are looking in a vacuum and they hardly have the expertise to evaluate how passionate someone must be to have accomplished some line item in their application. They also have virtually no ability to question the applicant on anything. This entire "holistic evaluation" thing, at this point is pretty much gamed out and the savviest parents and students know what the admissions officers are looking for, which means it plays out very much like the tests and the grades - people who really, really want to get into the top schools and will put in the effort are the ones who get in.
candybar 13y ago
The problem with this view is that there are tons of Asian kids who don't fit this mold and it's even harder for them to get into top schools.
rayiner 13y ago
"but the more they study, the proportionally less time they have to do other activities that make students 'well-rounded,' which is one of the qualities that top-tier universities value." "Well rounded" is code for "like the WASPs we used to admit in years past." Look at the kinds of things colleges value: community service, sports, etc. These are the things that used to in years past set people of good breeding apart from the regular people who were too busy keeping a roof over their head.
- Crake 13y ago
  100% agreed. People take "well rounded" to mean "better person." In most cases, what it actually means is a person who has never known what it's like to feel hunger.
- tsotha 13y ago
  >"Well rounded" is code for "like the WASPs we used to admit in years past." No it isn't. "Well rounded" is in fact code for any activity that has completely subjective merit which admissions offices can use to create quotas without officially having quotas.
- Vlaix 13y ago
  Trying to experience a bit of everything isn't a WASP thing, it's bona fide Humanism. As Montaigne put it : « I like better a well rounded head than a well filled one ». Western Universities are (or should be) the heirs of this tradition.
  - rayiner 13y ago
    Montaigne is a WASP thing.
vineel 13y ago
I am Asian. What I've noticed is that the kids who have to be "forced" to study ad-nauseum usually aren't the top performers. They're around the middle, but their families desperately want them to be the top. The top students are much more self motivated. They tend to be more or less equivalent to their supposedly more-well-rounded white counterparts.
- ruswick 13y ago
  I agree. As a high-school student, I notice that the top few percent of the class is comprised primarily of individuals who either 1) are innately intelligent (to the extent that innate ability exists at all. Obviously, there are many confounding factors in most of the criteria used to determine intelligence, and in many cases people misinterpret privilege with actual tallent. The people who are "innately smart" are those that can perform well with minimum effort, for whatever reason) or 2) work hard but are intrinsically motivated. Few people manage to get ahead solely through being compelled to work hard. It's very difficult to force someone to sacrifice four years of their life to attain a goal that they themselves are ambivalent about.
doktrin 13y ago
The Stanford & Harvard's of the world have a very real interest in ensuring that their demographics are preserved. "Well rounded" is a cop out, and your anecdote is a false dichotomy. The high achieving students you're describing aren't not participating in extra curricular activities. That just sounds bizarre. Anyone who's intensely focused on getting into a top school also has their application filled with extra curricular engagements.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]

fatjokes 13y ago

I'm willing to believe that this is what US universities are aiming for (i.e., "well-roundedness", passion vs. nurture, etc.) However, believing than an Asian kid did well on his scores / science competitions simply because a lot of Asian kids are pressured at home is called prejudice and extremely unfair to the kid in question. One (Asian) acquaintance of mine had great passion to be a computer scientist and pursued it against the wishes of his parents... who wanted him to be a doctor.

newnewnew 13y ago
Explaining away someone's personal success because of their race is a particularly nasty thing to do to someone. Unfortunately, I see it happen all the time.
jpatokal 13y ago
No, it's stereotyping, which is not quite the same. He's saying that parental pressure is a major factor in why a lot of Asian kids do well on their tests (hence the, yes, stereotypical "Asian father" meme); not that every Asian kid who does well does so only because of parental pressure (which would be prejudice).

rada 13y ago

The article discussed this extensively: these well-rounded-ness requirements are arbitrary, having been introduced in the 20's with the sole purpose of keeping out jewish students. While it may very well be true that the average asian applicant plays less sports than the average white applicant, it doesn't have any relevance to the applicant's aptitude for computer science.

david_shaw 13y ago
I agree with you completely; however, if Harvard (for example) wants to find the next "leaders in business, innovation and politics," they are likely seeking people who've shown drive in their chosen fields. For example, when I look to hire developers who are recent or soon-to-be college graduates, I may glance briefly at their GPA. While I care that they didn't flunk their classes (and aptitude in their language of choice is certainly important), I check to see what projects they did on the side. What open source software did they release or contribute to? Did they launch mobile or webapps while studying? Are they conversant in current events around their field of choice? To me, passion is more important than grades or even degrees--in business. My question, which I believe is the same one posed in the article, is whether it is appropriate for schools to evaluate on that metric, too.
- candybar 13y ago
  You're severely overestimating the ability of Harvard admissions officers to evaluate those traits based on college applications. You can at least narrow the scope to a single professional area in which the candidate must excel to do the job well. Do you think an average Harvard admissions officer can evaluate open-source projects? Or similar types of accomplishments in other specialized areas? They are looking in a vacuum and they hardly have the expertise to evaluate how passionate someone must be to have accomplished some line item in their application. They also have virtually no ability to question the applicant on anything. This entire "holistic evaluation" thing, at this point is pretty much gamed out and the savviest parents and students know what the admissions officers are looking for, which means it plays out very much like the tests and the grades - people who really, really want to get into the top schools and will put in the effort are the ones who get in.

candybar 13y ago

The problem with this view is that there are tons of Asian kids who don't fit this mold and it's even harder for them to get into top schools.

rayiner 13y ago

"but the more they study, the proportionally less time they have to do other activities that make students 'well-rounded,' which is one of the qualities that top-tier universities value." "Well rounded" is code for "like the WASPs we used to admit in years past." Look at the kinds of things colleges value: community service, sports, etc. These are the things that used to in years past set people of good breeding apart from the regular people who were too busy keeping a roof over their head.

Crake 13y ago
100% agreed. People take "well rounded" to mean "better person." In most cases, what it actually means is a person who has never known what it's like to feel hunger.
tsotha 13y ago
>"Well rounded" is code for "like the WASPs we used to admit in years past." No it isn't. "Well rounded" is in fact code for any activity that has completely subjective merit which admissions offices can use to create quotas without officially having quotas.
Vlaix 13y ago
Trying to experience a bit of everything isn't a WASP thing, it's bona fide Humanism. As Montaigne put it : « I like better a well rounded head than a well filled one ». Western Universities are (or should be) the heirs of this tradition.
- rayiner 13y ago
  Montaigne is a WASP thing.

vineel 13y ago

I am Asian. What I've noticed is that the kids who have to be "forced" to study ad-nauseum usually aren't the top performers. They're around the middle, but their families desperately want them to be the top. The top students are much more self motivated. They tend to be more or less equivalent to their supposedly more-well-rounded white counterparts.

ruswick 13y ago
I agree. As a high-school student, I notice that the top few percent of the class is comprised primarily of individuals who either 1) are innately intelligent (to the extent that innate ability exists at all. Obviously, there are many confounding factors in most of the criteria used to determine intelligence, and in many cases people misinterpret privilege with actual tallent. The people who are "innately smart" are those that can perform well with minimum effort, for whatever reason) or 2) work hard but are intrinsically motivated. Few people manage to get ahead solely through being compelled to work hard. It's very difficult to force someone to sacrifice four years of their life to attain a goal that they themselves are ambivalent about.

doktrin 13y ago

The Stanford & Harvard's of the world have a very real interest in ensuring that their demographics are preserved. "Well rounded" is a cop out, and your anecdote is a false dichotomy. The high achieving students you're describing aren't not participating in extra curricular activities. That just sounds bizarre. Anyone who's intensely focused on getting into a top school also has their application filled with extra curricular engagements.

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]