4 ms·

Are you and your friend working in the same field and having the same capabilities? I'm pretty sure a brilliant "doormat" programmer will make more than, say, a

by pakitan 14y ago

Are you and your friend working in the same field and having the same capabilities? I'm pretty sure a brilliant "doormat" programmer will make more than, say, an average "maximizer" salesman.

svachalek 14y ago
I was with you until the example. At any company I've ever worked at that had both sales and engineering, the salesfolks were making 50%-100% more. And those are the typical negotiating strategies of each group.
- czbond 14y ago
  Exactly. At a software company, the sales people are paid dramatically more. At one company I was at, the new salesman made more than the CTO.
  - matwood 14y ago
    Well the adage is, the closer you are to where money comes into the company the more you can make. Most sales jobs are also commission based which means if a sales person is making a lot of money the company also made a lot of money.
    - Domenic_S 14y ago
      Indeed. I am all for paying salespeople paltry salary or draw, and very generous commissions.
    - czbond 14y ago
      I agree - I would rather pay sales guys all day. I tell each that I'd love to keep writing them big checks, as big as I can make them.
- pakitan 14y ago
  Glassdoor data suggests otherwise: http://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/us-sales-representative-salary-SRCH_IL.0,2_IN1_KO3,23.htm http://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/us-sales-representative-sa... http://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/us-software-engineer-salary-SRCH_IL.0,2_IN1_KO3,20.htm http://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/us-software-engineer-salar...
pekk 14y ago
I'm pretty sure not, because the doormat will be caught by the first place that pays him any low wage he accepts, they will accept his deal because it's remarkably low, and he won't cycle out. Companies do not pay you more money just for being brilliant, when it is not obvious that they need to.
- scotch_drinker 14y ago
  This commonly expressed idea that companies are out to screw everyone is divisive and poisonous. "Companies" don't make decisions on how much to pay someone, people do. And most people, by definition, are decent and have a strong understanding of what's fair. Again, there are exceptions but assuming you work in a field where there are other career options, staying in a sociopathic working environment shouldn't even be up for discussion. I might be considered a doormat because I don't demand what I deserve. But the very fact that I don't seems to turn into fair pay, good working conditions and honesty. Sure, it's one data point. But I've given it a lot of thought and noticed that people who are constantly demanding what the deserve are highly unpopular and frequently unhappy.
  - georgemcbay 14y ago
    Most companies aren't out to screw you, but I've worked for a few (I'm 40 this year), and the vast majority of them aren't actively concerned with not screwing you, which works out to the same thing practically speaking when it comes to raises and other advancement within the company over time. There is an old adage about the easiest way to get a raise in the tech field being to move to a new company. This is, in my experience, absolutely and nearly universally true (there are a select few companies that really stay on the ball with regards to keeping up with salary adjustments for existing employees, but they are very few and very far between).

by pakitan 14y ago

Are you and your friend working in the same field and having the same capabilities? I'm pretty sure a brilliant "doormat" programmer will make more than, say, an average "maximizer" salesman.

svachalek 14y ago

I was with you until the example. At any company I've ever worked at that had both sales and engineering, the salesfolks were making 50%-100% more. And those are the typical negotiating strategies of each group.

czbond 14y ago
Exactly. At a software company, the sales people are paid dramatically more. At one company I was at, the new salesman made more than the CTO.
- matwood 14y ago
  Well the adage is, the closer you are to where money comes into the company the more you can make. Most sales jobs are also commission based which means if a sales person is making a lot of money the company also made a lot of money.
  - Domenic_S 14y ago
    Indeed. I am all for paying salespeople paltry salary or draw, and very generous commissions.
  - czbond 14y ago
    I agree - I would rather pay sales guys all day. I tell each that I'd love to keep writing them big checks, as big as I can make them.
pakitan 14y ago
Glassdoor data suggests otherwise: http://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/us-sales-representative-salary-SRCH_IL.0,2_IN1_KO3,23.htm http://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/us-sales-representative-sa... http://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/us-software-engineer-salary-SRCH_IL.0,2_IN1_KO3,20.htm http://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/us-software-engineer-salar...

pekk 14y ago

I'm pretty sure not, because the doormat will be caught by the first place that pays him any low wage he accepts, they will accept his deal because it's remarkably low, and he won't cycle out. Companies do not pay you more money just for being brilliant, when it is not obvious that they need to.

scotch_drinker 14y ago
This commonly expressed idea that companies are out to screw everyone is divisive and poisonous. "Companies" don't make decisions on how much to pay someone, people do. And most people, by definition, are decent and have a strong understanding of what's fair. Again, there are exceptions but assuming you work in a field where there are other career options, staying in a sociopathic working environment shouldn't even be up for discussion. I might be considered a doormat because I don't demand what I deserve. But the very fact that I don't seems to turn into fair pay, good working conditions and honesty. Sure, it's one data point. But I've given it a lot of thought and noticed that people who are constantly demanding what the deserve are highly unpopular and frequently unhappy.
- georgemcbay 14y ago
  Most companies aren't out to screw you, but I've worked for a few (I'm 40 this year), and the vast majority of them aren't actively concerned with not screwing you, which works out to the same thing practically speaking when it comes to raises and other advancement within the company over time. There is an old adage about the easiest way to get a raise in the tech field being to move to a new company. This is, in my experience, absolutely and nearly universally true (there are a select few companies that really stay on the ball with regards to keeping up with salary adjustments for existing employees, but they are very few and very far between).