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Reddit apologises for Boston "Witch Hunt"

33 points by nkhumphreys 13y ago

stefantalpalaru 13y ago
Reddit is a platform. Why would the platform apologize for what some of its users say?
- Goronmon 13y ago
  Looks like your getting downvoted, but I do agree with you. While it's the nice thing to do in this case for the owners of Reddit to apologize, I'm not sure what meaning it really has, or should have. They don't have control over the people using their site. Things like this will continue to happen just as they always have. I mean, I wouldn't expect Google to apologize because people sent threatening emails using a gmail.com address.
- zwily 13y ago
  One of the few rules reddit has is to not post "personal information". The admins and mods obviously ignored that for the "witch hunt".
  - arbitrage 13y ago
    they often do for many of the witchhunts that spring up with dismaying regularity.
  - DannyBee 13y ago
    Do you know of any general forums that are thriving, have user-led moderator, and yet rigidly apply their rules to every post? The previous large ones, like SomethingAwful, certainly don't. In any case: 1. These aren't paid moderators. Reddit has paid admins, but not moderators, AFAIK. Expecting subreddit moderators to give a crap seems a bit far fetched. 2. I know of nowhere that rigidly applies rules. Even HN doesn't. I know the typical demographic for HN likes bright- line black/white rules, but it's just not the real world.
    - zwily 13y ago
      No - I don't. However, this was the biggest story on reddit for several days. This wasn't happening in some podunk subreddit that nobody watches. The mods/admins could have shut down the posts of personal information. Instead they apparently decided they were being helpful and let it continue. I think (I hope) that's what they are apologizing for.
      - DannyBee 13y ago
        Again, the mods could not have done anything real. At best they could ban someone from a subforum.
    - illuminate 13y ago
      "1. These aren't paid moderators. Reddit has paid admins, but not moderators, AFAIK. Expecting subreddit moderators to give a crap seems a bit far fetched." Then the volunteers should report irresponsible shit to the paid employees.
      - DannyBee 13y ago
        I'm sure they do, but it's not their day job, so expecting them to catch everything seems wrong
forwardslash 13y ago
Reddit has a history of apologizing for witch hunts. What's going to stop this from happening again? Nothing. They just hope that, "Boston will also be where reddit learns to be sensitive of its own power." I'm sure that will solve itself.
- quaunaut 13y ago
  They've actually kept dozens from happening in the past, but you've gotta be familiar with the nature of the site to understand. Generally, those past witch hunts were built around small groups of people coming together to harass someone for an unpopular view- whether it was someone working for a company they hated, or someone who supports women's rights fervently. This was a case where Reddit had mild success in the past, being able to figure out the license plates of hit-'n-run suspects, or thieves of various types. So, they thought that maybe they could do some good here. Now they know otherwise: There is no right time for stuff like this. Ever. So, they go back to what they've done in the past to stop these, dozens, and dozens, and dozens of times: Heavier moderation of anything that could even possibly lead to someone's personal information.
- danielweber 13y ago
  Posting personal information is one of the very very few things that will get you a site-wide ban on Reddit. They have squished vastly more than they've allowed. They should have done this a week ago, but I won't discourage them from finally doing the right thing by nagging them about that.
prawn 13y ago
This also made ABC news in Australia.
webwanderings 13y ago
As much as I find Reddit useful but this time around, I really hope the owners get sued by the innocent people. --- So does this mean that HN is also apologizing? I think they should because there was enough carried over witch-hunt here as well.
- mpyne 13y ago
  So why not sue pg for the "carried over witch-hunt" here on HN, if site owners are responsible for those now? Or m00t over at 4chan?
  - webwanderings 13y ago
    This is a conundrum. The online Forums taking the vigilante role and ending up as a powerful force begs a question: Is this the forum/platform which has become so powerful, or the forum/platform owners? You see, the BBC is reporting that Reddit apologized. Do you really think that there is such a thing called Reddit which has a capacity to apologize? Either the owners of Reddit can apologize or nobody. If the owners of Reddit apologized than do we believe that the group of public (which is mostly responsible for the witch-hunt) also apologized? How could they apologize as a collective group when they are not coherent as a visible entity? The owners of such internet platforms should reflect on when their platform could be abused by the mass and they should interfere before it becomes a monster which cannot be tamed.
    - mpyne 13y ago
      > The owners of such internet platforms should reflect on when their platform could be abused by the mass and they should interfere before it becomes a monster which cannot be tamed. I actually agree, but I'm not sure that I would put that assertion to the force of law. There is then the conundrum of what happens in the face of selective enforcement (and there will be selective enforcement). Can someone then sue Reddit for not suppressing an investigation that doxxed them quickly enough, or at all, given that Reddit has suppressed other investigations? If you do manage to always comply with a law saying this much it will only be by suppressing otherwise valid speech, which is also problematic. Also, can someone sue Reddit for being suppressed unnecessarily, or is it merely an inconvenience?
bargl 13y ago
Honestly, Hacker News... What the fuck. This wasn't just reddit. We did this too. I come to HN for the intilectual stimulation and then I find this https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5562909 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5562909 in the top thread. This disappointing me on so many levels. No it is not everyone's fault but this sort of witch hunt is wrong and I'd suggest we downvote any sensationalized idea that 4chan or any other hacker can find the one or two guilty parties through online means.
- fossuser 13y ago
  A lot of the comments in that thread mentioned previous examples of people being damaged from false accusations in the media. I don't think looking at the released pictures itself is a bad thing and I don't think the HN community was involved in whatever hunting happened that the article alludes to.
  - bargl 13y ago
    I think if you read through the comments you'll see a LOT of witch hunting. Yes there were comments in there about how this kind of behavior was bad, but it isn't something that I want to see on the front page. I mean seriously... the front page of hacker news? I don't remember if it got to #1, but looking at it and up-voting it are two different things. We don't need that kind of smut here.
- incision 13y ago
  >We did this too. Not even close. I didn't [1][2] and generally don't agree with such discussion, but equating what went on here with Reddit is ridiculous. The thread you linked on HN is primarily a discussion of the history and potential impacts speculation, not actual speculation. Yes, there are exceptions, but they are just that exceptions. The situation in the now defunct /r/findbostonbombers was completely opposite with wild speculation, accusation, doxxing and everything inbetween. 1: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5573397 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5573397 2: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5573505 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5573505
fossuser 13y ago
What were the negative consequences they allude to? Comments on facebook? Something else?
delambo 13y ago
Reddit is the unfiltered internet. I don't go there to get trustworthy news. The problem is any news source that quotes straight from Reddit - they should know better, and verify any leads before reporting. The internet is raw, and people need to put their critical thinking hats on when digesting unfiltered data, speculation, and analysis.
- webwanderings 13y ago
  Totally makes sense. Mainstream media screwed up big time (so what if they were hiding the faces on the photographs they quoted). But same is the case with Twitter ecosystem. It all comes down to "professional journalists" becoming unprofessional. People, the common and all kinds of people, on the other hand, would "talk". Whether online or offline, people talk about all types of things, good, bad or ugly. Reddit is like a platform which provides microphone to common people and it amplifies their talk. Just because people have opinion doesn't mean they should be highlighted in the newspaper. Reddit and HN etc needs to decide if they are going to editorialize their platform or not. Apologizing after-the-fact makes no sense.
- sehugg 13y ago
  Yeah, traditional media sure were happy to promote the Reddit link and print positive headlines about it. It took them only one day to s/internet sleuths/witch hunt/g
wtvanhest 13y ago
First, a "witch hunt" is the search for witchcraft or some other non-existent force/person etc. Searching for a bombing suspect is not a witch hunt since a bombing suspect was truly on the loose with additional bombs and some type of plan to use them. Second, the images reddit had were not the most up to date images possible. Had the bars uploaded their video, it is likely that reddit would have found the bombers the first night. They simply didn't have videos and photos that were up to date enough. Third, the FBI had a press release around 2:00 Thursday saying they had identified the suspects and would release their images at 5:00 Thursday. (leaks were coming out earlier saying they had identified them as early as Friday morning). Now, I understand that the FBI was probably following up on leads to locate them. But, they were not able to find them and while they were looking, the public was in grave danger. I understand it is not good to name suspects on a public forum where we do not have enough evidence and I'm sure I would have been stressed had I been named, but the finger should be pointed at the police and we should start working toward better systems for law enforcement. Those men planed on killing more people and could have carried out the second attack while the FBI was not releasing their identity. It is simply unacceptable that it took over 3 days to locate them in the video. I'm not saying reddit should be the system, but they need a better system to sort and analyze digital images and video. The apology should come from the FBI.
- imjared 13y ago
  1) a "witch hunt" can be taken in the metaphorical sense to mean a hunt for any enemy/dissenter.[1] I think the term is used rather judiciously. 2) "It is likely" isn't good enough. You're hypothesizing. Could they have found them? Maybe. Could they have not found them? Maybe. All we know is they didn't find the bombers but instead slandered a number of individuals and family names in the process. 3) I'm not sure what your background is but I like to believe that our federal law enforcement (FBI, Police, SWAT Teams, etc.), while not perfect, is pretty well-trained and collectively has thousands upon thousand of YEARS MORE experience than I do in collecting evidence, timing its release, and generally fighting crime. As such, I imagine the timed release was not to delay or elongate the process but was very intentional. I do agree with you that it seemed to take longer than is desirable to find the suspects (especially since once they were found, one got away) but a "better system" is by no means the hive mind of untrained "armchair investigators." Perhaps in the future there will be a way to crowd source information but the responses of Reddit 4chan, and yes, even some here on HN were well-intentioned but harmful. An apology from Reddit seems perfectly acceptable. [1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witch-hunt#Metaphorical_usage http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witch-hunt#Metaphorical_usage
civild 13y ago
Relating a specific thread to a "subreddit" and not mentioning that _all_ of the discussion was driven by users is a bit disingenuous of the BBC. From an outsider's perspective it makes Reddit sound like a gossip blog or a news/opinion site written by journalists.
tocomment 13y ago
I think there could be some simple improvements to improve this situation in the future. 1. Break off the users working on identifying suspects into a non-public sub-reddit (or other site) and anyone who wants to join should have to read about how to do this kind of work responsibly and read about what went wrong last time. 2. There should a warning to any reporters who try to join the closed site that this is a work in progress and nothing except the official status reports of the group should be reported on. 3. If anyone starts witch-hunting in the public threads then moderators and users (it should be part of reddediquite if it's not) should point those users to the closed forum. (and obviously immediately delete anything accusing a specific person.) 4. Like someone else also said, reporters need to be educated to not report directly from Reddit. It's the raw internet. What do you guys think? What else could be done to improve the situation?
- arbitrage 13y ago
  why condone this activity at all? why not just stamp it out?
  - tocomment 13y ago
    I've heard that more eyes on a problem can be very useful. Also it helps keep the government honest. (And it would probably be really hard to "stamp" out anyway.)
    - sageikosa 13y ago
      Well, we could go on a witch hunt to hunt the witch hunters...but then who would be hunting us?
      - josephb 13y ago
        Witches?
  - DannyBee 13y ago
    because you can't stamp it out?
quaunaut 13y ago
As seems to be the norm these days, the initial HackerNews comments miss the whole damned point. Yes, Reddit is a platform. However, it's a platform that they do moderate- usually heavily. Reddit actually has quite a history of stopping witch hunts, ever since they started having problems with people posting user information, or inciting people to harass someone off-site. They've been quite successful at it, and the community is thankful. However, those were always related to cases that didn't have any reason whatsoever to have large groups involved- they were to harass community members, some small-name celebrities, or people with opinions that are unpopular on Reddit. This was the first time that it was something that theoretically, Reddit could do some good with- and has had a bit of luck in doing this, albeit for much smaller crimes, in the past, by digging up license plate numbers, or giving advice that led to figuring a suspect out(usually stuff like hit and runs, or technology robberies). Obviously, this taught them that there is no good time to let the Reddit hunt go. That it should always be moderated, every time, out of existence. You could say that they should've known that going in- but then again, CNN, The New York Post, Twitter, and HackerNews fucked this shit up as well. Everyone but the feds did. So get off the high horse.
- bargl 13y ago
  I think the point here is that a witch hunt is never ok. In some of the situations you listed, people are asking for help in finding someone who wronged them. In this case the wronged party were not asking for help and it was offered up freely. I think that the idea of reddit finding peoples stolen bikes, phones, etc is typically less of an issue because of the scope of it. In this case the driving factor was fear and anger, much like what happened after 911. The point as I see it is that you should never hunt for someone to blame out of fear or anger. And you are right many people did it, Steven Colbert had an awesome skit making fun of the Post. But here, HN is our community and to see that kind of behavior happen here is disappointing. I'd like to see a policy enacted where posts like that are brought down in the future and not allowed to go on. Witch hunts are a major problem with this means of communication, it just lends itself well to it, and it needs to be stamped out. That's the point.
- sageikosa 13y ago
  So...when the crowd get large enough, its time to grab the pitchforks as well, for fear of being skewered oneself? It is always when the mob gets cackled that cooler heads need to prevail. Mob action works by social reinforcement, someone needs to be the cobalt rods in the reactor, or you need to stay out of the exclusion zone. The Feds, for their "credit", have been burned by prematurely releasing investigative material before, and know that it can skew the information the receive...it generates more noise and lawsuits.
ck2 13y ago
Look, people had a lot of energy and will to help (and maybe a bit of anger) and didn't know where to pour it into. It's the same way redcross makes a fortune to buy new furniture after each disaster because people want to help but do not know how, so they take the easiest path without any deep thought. It's not like they ran to join the military to invade Iraq for dubious reasons somehow impossibly tied to 9/11, so at least we are learning from past mistakes. What people need to do is make a crowdsourcing app for the next time this happens to better focus all that willpower in the right direction.
- bargl 13y ago
  People need to take their leads to the police... Sure the police could have an app for that, but just because you have extra energy is not a excuse to destroy peoples lives by falsely accusing them of this sort of crime.
  - ck2 13y ago
    I do wonder though how different this thread would be if "the internet" actually found the right person. Anyway, for now places like reddit and 4chan have far less influence than say CNN or Daily News so any damage they cause is far less. A good crowdsourcing app would maybe have one-way data to "authorities" and not allow people to "gang up" on any individual.
    - tking8924 13y ago
      To be honest, it may be a good thing that the internet didn't find the right person in this case, because I think the reaction would have been different and may have ended up reinforcing this behaviour in the future. As it is, we have been able to take this a lesson on the power of such internet outlets with hopefully far fewer "casualties" than there could have been.
    - bargl 13y ago
      Agreed, some of the major pages in reddit get a lot of traffic, but that sort of subreddit doesn't get the viewership. I too am glad that they didn't get the right guy, that would have gave some justification to this kind of behavior. I do like the one-way data idea. That would be awesome.
theklub 13y ago
Why does the BBC feel the need to plaster the terrorists faces all over their website? Honestly its the last thing I want to see, and yet they continue to burn this image into my head.

33 points by nkhumphreys 13y ago

stefantalpalaru 13y ago

Reddit is a platform. Why would the platform apologize for what some of its users say?

Goronmon 13y ago
Looks like your getting downvoted, but I do agree with you. While it's the nice thing to do in this case for the owners of Reddit to apologize, I'm not sure what meaning it really has, or should have. They don't have control over the people using their site. Things like this will continue to happen just as they always have. I mean, I wouldn't expect Google to apologize because people sent threatening emails using a gmail.com address.
zwily 13y ago
One of the few rules reddit has is to not post "personal information". The admins and mods obviously ignored that for the "witch hunt".
- arbitrage 13y ago
  they often do for many of the witchhunts that spring up with dismaying regularity.
- DannyBee 13y ago
  Do you know of any general forums that are thriving, have user-led moderator, and yet rigidly apply their rules to every post? The previous large ones, like SomethingAwful, certainly don't. In any case: 1. These aren't paid moderators. Reddit has paid admins, but not moderators, AFAIK. Expecting subreddit moderators to give a crap seems a bit far fetched. 2. I know of nowhere that rigidly applies rules. Even HN doesn't. I know the typical demographic for HN likes bright- line black/white rules, but it's just not the real world.
  - zwily 13y ago
    No - I don't. However, this was the biggest story on reddit for several days. This wasn't happening in some podunk subreddit that nobody watches. The mods/admins could have shut down the posts of personal information. Instead they apparently decided they were being helpful and let it continue. I think (I hope) that's what they are apologizing for.
    - DannyBee 13y ago
      Again, the mods could not have done anything real. At best they could ban someone from a subforum.
  - illuminate 13y ago
    "1. These aren't paid moderators. Reddit has paid admins, but not moderators, AFAIK. Expecting subreddit moderators to give a crap seems a bit far fetched." Then the volunteers should report irresponsible shit to the paid employees.
    - DannyBee 13y ago
      I'm sure they do, but it's not their day job, so expecting them to catch everything seems wrong

forwardslash 13y ago

Reddit has a history of apologizing for witch hunts. What's going to stop this from happening again? Nothing. They just hope that, "Boston will also be where reddit learns to be sensitive of its own power." I'm sure that will solve itself.

quaunaut 13y ago
They've actually kept dozens from happening in the past, but you've gotta be familiar with the nature of the site to understand. Generally, those past witch hunts were built around small groups of people coming together to harass someone for an unpopular view- whether it was someone working for a company they hated, or someone who supports women's rights fervently. This was a case where Reddit had mild success in the past, being able to figure out the license plates of hit-'n-run suspects, or thieves of various types. So, they thought that maybe they could do some good here. Now they know otherwise: There is no right time for stuff like this. Ever. So, they go back to what they've done in the past to stop these, dozens, and dozens, and dozens of times: Heavier moderation of anything that could even possibly lead to someone's personal information.
danielweber 13y ago
Posting personal information is one of the very very few things that will get you a site-wide ban on Reddit. They have squished vastly more than they've allowed. They should have done this a week ago, but I won't discourage them from finally doing the right thing by nagging them about that.

prawn 13y ago

This also made ABC news in Australia.

webwanderings 13y ago

As much as I find Reddit useful but this time around, I really hope the owners get sued by the innocent people. --- So does this mean that HN is also apologizing? I think they should because there was enough carried over witch-hunt here as well.

mpyne 13y ago
So why not sue pg for the "carried over witch-hunt" here on HN, if site owners are responsible for those now? Or m00t over at 4chan?
- webwanderings 13y ago
  This is a conundrum. The online Forums taking the vigilante role and ending up as a powerful force begs a question: Is this the forum/platform which has become so powerful, or the forum/platform owners? You see, the BBC is reporting that Reddit apologized. Do you really think that there is such a thing called Reddit which has a capacity to apologize? Either the owners of Reddit can apologize or nobody. If the owners of Reddit apologized than do we believe that the group of public (which is mostly responsible for the witch-hunt) also apologized? How could they apologize as a collective group when they are not coherent as a visible entity? The owners of such internet platforms should reflect on when their platform could be abused by the mass and they should interfere before it becomes a monster which cannot be tamed.
  - mpyne 13y ago
    > The owners of such internet platforms should reflect on when their platform could be abused by the mass and they should interfere before it becomes a monster which cannot be tamed. I actually agree, but I'm not sure that I would put that assertion to the force of law. There is then the conundrum of what happens in the face of selective enforcement (and there will be selective enforcement). Can someone then sue Reddit for not suppressing an investigation that doxxed them quickly enough, or at all, given that Reddit has suppressed other investigations? If you do manage to always comply with a law saying this much it will only be by suppressing otherwise valid speech, which is also problematic. Also, can someone sue Reddit for being suppressed unnecessarily, or is it merely an inconvenience?

bargl 13y ago

Honestly, Hacker News... What the fuck. This wasn't just reddit. We did this too. I come to HN for the intilectual stimulation and then I find this https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5562909 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5562909 in the top thread. This disappointing me on so many levels. No it is not everyone's fault but this sort of witch hunt is wrong and I'd suggest we downvote any sensationalized idea that 4chan or any other hacker can find the one or two guilty parties through online means.

fossuser 13y ago
A lot of the comments in that thread mentioned previous examples of people being damaged from false accusations in the media. I don't think looking at the released pictures itself is a bad thing and I don't think the HN community was involved in whatever hunting happened that the article alludes to.
- bargl 13y ago
  I think if you read through the comments you'll see a LOT of witch hunting. Yes there were comments in there about how this kind of behavior was bad, but it isn't something that I want to see on the front page. I mean seriously... the front page of hacker news? I don't remember if it got to #1, but looking at it and up-voting it are two different things. We don't need that kind of smut here.
incision 13y ago
>We did this too. Not even close. I didn't [1][2] and generally don't agree with such discussion, but equating what went on here with Reddit is ridiculous. The thread you linked on HN is primarily a discussion of the history and potential impacts speculation, not actual speculation. Yes, there are exceptions, but they are just that exceptions. The situation in the now defunct /r/findbostonbombers was completely opposite with wild speculation, accusation, doxxing and everything inbetween. 1: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5573397 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5573397 2: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5573505 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5573505

fossuser 13y ago

What were the negative consequences they allude to? Comments on facebook? Something else?

delambo 13y ago

Reddit is the unfiltered internet. I don't go there to get trustworthy news. The problem is any news source that quotes straight from Reddit - they should know better, and verify any leads before reporting. The internet is raw, and people need to put their critical thinking hats on when digesting unfiltered data, speculation, and analysis.

webwanderings 13y ago
Totally makes sense. Mainstream media screwed up big time (so what if they were hiding the faces on the photographs they quoted). But same is the case with Twitter ecosystem. It all comes down to "professional journalists" becoming unprofessional. People, the common and all kinds of people, on the other hand, would "talk". Whether online or offline, people talk about all types of things, good, bad or ugly. Reddit is like a platform which provides microphone to common people and it amplifies their talk. Just because people have opinion doesn't mean they should be highlighted in the newspaper. Reddit and HN etc needs to decide if they are going to editorialize their platform or not. Apologizing after-the-fact makes no sense.
sehugg 13y ago
Yeah, traditional media sure were happy to promote the Reddit link and print positive headlines about it. It took them only one day to s/internet sleuths/witch hunt/g

wtvanhest 13y ago

First, a "witch hunt" is the search for witchcraft or some other non-existent force/person etc. Searching for a bombing suspect is not a witch hunt since a bombing suspect was truly on the loose with additional bombs and some type of plan to use them. Second, the images reddit had were not the most up to date images possible. Had the bars uploaded their video, it is likely that reddit would have found the bombers the first night. They simply didn't have videos and photos that were up to date enough. Third, the FBI had a press release around 2:00 Thursday saying they had identified the suspects and would release their images at 5:00 Thursday. (leaks were coming out earlier saying they had identified them as early as Friday morning). Now, I understand that the FBI was probably following up on leads to locate them. But, they were not able to find them and while they were looking, the public was in grave danger. I understand it is not good to name suspects on a public forum where we do not have enough evidence and I'm sure I would have been stressed had I been named, but the finger should be pointed at the police and we should start working toward better systems for law enforcement. Those men planed on killing more people and could have carried out the second attack while the FBI was not releasing their identity. It is simply unacceptable that it took over 3 days to locate them in the video. I'm not saying reddit should be the system, but they need a better system to sort and analyze digital images and video. The apology should come from the FBI.

imjared 13y ago
1) a "witch hunt" can be taken in the metaphorical sense to mean a hunt for any enemy/dissenter.[1] I think the term is used rather judiciously. 2) "It is likely" isn't good enough. You're hypothesizing. Could they have found them? Maybe. Could they have not found them? Maybe. All we know is they didn't find the bombers but instead slandered a number of individuals and family names in the process. 3) I'm not sure what your background is but I like to believe that our federal law enforcement (FBI, Police, SWAT Teams, etc.), while not perfect, is pretty well-trained and collectively has thousands upon thousand of YEARS MORE experience than I do in collecting evidence, timing its release, and generally fighting crime. As such, I imagine the timed release was not to delay or elongate the process but was very intentional. I do agree with you that it seemed to take longer than is desirable to find the suspects (especially since once they were found, one got away) but a "better system" is by no means the hive mind of untrained "armchair investigators." Perhaps in the future there will be a way to crowd source information but the responses of Reddit 4chan, and yes, even some here on HN were well-intentioned but harmful. An apology from Reddit seems perfectly acceptable. [1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witch-hunt#Metaphorical_usage http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witch-hunt#Metaphorical_usage

civild 13y ago

Relating a specific thread to a "subreddit" and not mentioning that _all_ of the discussion was driven by users is a bit disingenuous of the BBC. From an outsider's perspective it makes Reddit sound like a gossip blog or a news/opinion site written by journalists.

tocomment 13y ago

I think there could be some simple improvements to improve this situation in the future. 1. Break off the users working on identifying suspects into a non-public sub-reddit (or other site) and anyone who wants to join should have to read about how to do this kind of work responsibly and read about what went wrong last time. 2. There should a warning to any reporters who try to join the closed site that this is a work in progress and nothing except the official status reports of the group should be reported on. 3. If anyone starts witch-hunting in the public threads then moderators and users (it should be part of reddediquite if it's not) should point those users to the closed forum. (and obviously immediately delete anything accusing a specific person.) 4. Like someone else also said, reporters need to be educated to not report directly from Reddit. It's the raw internet. What do you guys think? What else could be done to improve the situation?

arbitrage 13y ago
why condone this activity at all? why not just stamp it out?
- tocomment 13y ago
  I've heard that more eyes on a problem can be very useful. Also it helps keep the government honest. (And it would probably be really hard to "stamp" out anyway.)
  - sageikosa 13y ago
    Well, we could go on a witch hunt to hunt the witch hunters...but then who would be hunting us?
    - josephb 13y ago
      Witches?
- DannyBee 13y ago
  because you can't stamp it out?

quaunaut 13y ago

As seems to be the norm these days, the initial HackerNews comments miss the whole damned point. Yes, Reddit is a platform. However, it's a platform that they do moderate- usually heavily. Reddit actually has quite a history of stopping witch hunts, ever since they started having problems with people posting user information, or inciting people to harass someone off-site. They've been quite successful at it, and the community is thankful. However, those were always related to cases that didn't have any reason whatsoever to have large groups involved- they were to harass community members, some small-name celebrities, or people with opinions that are unpopular on Reddit. This was the first time that it was something that theoretically, Reddit could do some good with- and has had a bit of luck in doing this, albeit for much smaller crimes, in the past, by digging up license plate numbers, or giving advice that led to figuring a suspect out(usually stuff like hit and runs, or technology robberies). Obviously, this taught them that there is no good time to let the Reddit hunt go. That it should always be moderated, every time, out of existence. You could say that they should've known that going in- but then again, CNN, The New York Post, Twitter, and HackerNews fucked this shit up as well. Everyone but the feds did. So get off the high horse.

bargl 13y ago
I think the point here is that a witch hunt is never ok. In some of the situations you listed, people are asking for help in finding someone who wronged them. In this case the wronged party were not asking for help and it was offered up freely. I think that the idea of reddit finding peoples stolen bikes, phones, etc is typically less of an issue because of the scope of it. In this case the driving factor was fear and anger, much like what happened after 911. The point as I see it is that you should never hunt for someone to blame out of fear or anger. And you are right many people did it, Steven Colbert had an awesome skit making fun of the Post. But here, HN is our community and to see that kind of behavior happen here is disappointing. I'd like to see a policy enacted where posts like that are brought down in the future and not allowed to go on. Witch hunts are a major problem with this means of communication, it just lends itself well to it, and it needs to be stamped out. That's the point.
sageikosa 13y ago
So...when the crowd get large enough, its time to grab the pitchforks as well, for fear of being skewered oneself? It is always when the mob gets cackled that cooler heads need to prevail. Mob action works by social reinforcement, someone needs to be the cobalt rods in the reactor, or you need to stay out of the exclusion zone. The Feds, for their "credit", have been burned by prematurely releasing investigative material before, and know that it can skew the information the receive...it generates more noise and lawsuits.

ck2 13y ago

Look, people had a lot of energy and will to help (and maybe a bit of anger) and didn't know where to pour it into. It's the same way redcross makes a fortune to buy new furniture after each disaster because people want to help but do not know how, so they take the easiest path without any deep thought. It's not like they ran to join the military to invade Iraq for dubious reasons somehow impossibly tied to 9/11, so at least we are learning from past mistakes. What people need to do is make a crowdsourcing app for the next time this happens to better focus all that willpower in the right direction.

bargl 13y ago
People need to take their leads to the police... Sure the police could have an app for that, but just because you have extra energy is not a excuse to destroy peoples lives by falsely accusing them of this sort of crime.
- ck2 13y ago
  I do wonder though how different this thread would be if "the internet" actually found the right person. Anyway, for now places like reddit and 4chan have far less influence than say CNN or Daily News so any damage they cause is far less. A good crowdsourcing app would maybe have one-way data to "authorities" and not allow people to "gang up" on any individual.
  - tking8924 13y ago
    To be honest, it may be a good thing that the internet didn't find the right person in this case, because I think the reaction would have been different and may have ended up reinforcing this behaviour in the future. As it is, we have been able to take this a lesson on the power of such internet outlets with hopefully far fewer "casualties" than there could have been.
  - bargl 13y ago
    Agreed, some of the major pages in reddit get a lot of traffic, but that sort of subreddit doesn't get the viewership. I too am glad that they didn't get the right guy, that would have gave some justification to this kind of behavior. I do like the one-way data idea. That would be awesome.

theklub 13y ago

Why does the BBC feel the need to plaster the terrorists faces all over their website? Honestly its the last thing I want to see, and yet they continue to burn this image into my head.