7 ms·

In Silicon Valley, Recruiting Clashes With Immigration Limits

54 points by jey 18y ago

pj 18y ago
There are lots of great programmers in the United States, they just want to be paid more than immigrants, so the companies lobby congress to allow them to import more cheap softare factories. It's the same at every level of society.
- dustineichler 18y ago
  You speak the truth, but hesitate to enumerate on the reality.
- jey 18y ago
  Sure, cheap idiots shouldn't be allowed to immigrate into the USA. I'm totally against the trend of mass produced know-nothing "programmers" who were imported into the US in the late 90's and early 2000's. But there's a lot of legitimately intelligent and capable people out there, and it's in our best interest to try and get them to play for Team USA.
- boundlessdreamz 18y ago
  If you had actually bothered to read the article, you will find that the person featured has been educated in US from when he was 14. He went to Harvard. Now do you want such a person to be just sent back because he is an "immigrant" or that his skill and intelligence be recognized and make it such that it is easy for him to work in US, contributing to the US economy. The US attracted the best and the brightest. If you insist on sending them back because they are "immigrants" then the loss is not just theirs.From the article "Many innovators in Silicon Valley come from overseas; 42 percent of engineers with master’s degrees and 60 percent of those with engineering Ph.D.’s in the United States are foreign-born." Do you know why Chinese and Indians population in Universities are increasing? Because in those cultures being a geek is cool, unlike in US. In China and US, the topper in the school is the super star unlike in US where it will be the college football captain. The toppers from such places come to US because the US universities are far ahead in higher education. But if you send these people back, this lead in education will slowly evaporate as the best students go back to their country instead of staying on and becoming entrepreneurs and professors.
  - boundlessdreamz 18y ago
    Thinking about it, the founder visa idea that pg proposed is aimed at the kind of people like the guy featured in the article.
  - code_devil 18y ago
    I came in 2001(18 yrs) for my BS in Comp Sc and I am currently in my H1-B. The Green Card process is long and far away, so I don't even think about it. However, I see a few drawbacks of being on H1: i. It hampers my capability to jump jobs to risky startups, because if that startup goes bust, I need to find a job in 2 months to stay in the country. Especially with a recessionary season, it adds to the risk while your existing employer is pretty strong. ii. I am always looking for avenues to work on Ideas, and I do that too. But, because I need to be employed to maintain my Visa Status, I can only devote my evenings and weekends. iii. I am also worried about the Laws (Immigration and other) that may prevent me from having my own venture etc. I have been in the US for close to 10 years(8 years now and 2 years when I was a Kid). So, I have lived most of my decision making, understanding the world, ups/downs of life here in the US and I feel really connected to this country and really love it. I even pay good amount of Tax dollars plus work for a US company that works towards the growth of the US economy even in this downturn. But my fate still lies on the Immigration Policy. Another point I wanted to mention was about my experience in College. In my freshman year I realized hanging out with kids that went to Highschool here that being Smart in school equates to being a Geek, which is not considered Hip and Cool. On the contrary back home in India where I grew up, being smart(not necessarily Geek) was considered Cool and everyone wants to be friends with the Smart Kid. Luckily, it worked out good for me as I had a solid academic background from India and then had cool friends out here.
    - Hexstream 18y ago
      I'm Curious about where your Habit of Capitalizing so many Words come from?...
    - furburger 18y ago
      okay come on you have totally warped expectations of what a work visa provides. work visas are not created to allow you to wonder silicon valley looking for cool startups to join. nor should it. thats what residency visas are for. a work visa should be tied to an employer. you seem to think you need a work visa in order to get a residency visa...no. tens of thousands of people every year become US citizens simply because they want to.
- jamiequint 18y ago
  This is pretty much true at any level of supply (increase supply and the price will drop). You could just as easily argue that if more students study engineering its hurts those currently in the industry, that alone is not a reason to be against it. From talking to my other friends with startups in the Bay Area it is apparent that there are not enough good engineers here. I had a conversation last weekend with one of my friends who always struggles to find good Ruby engineers, even at above market prices, and using every recruitment method available. As the founder of a company originally started to help companies hire technical talent I've seen this firsthand. Everyone is frustrated with recruiters piping them lots of unqualified resumes, Dice, Monster, and Craigslist also provide high volume, but often low quality. Even the niche boards are underperforming. If there are really "lots of great programmers" in the US where are they? I know a lot of companies around here who would gladly pay $150k+ for a truly "great" programmer, if they could only find them. Maybe part of the problem is the vast difference between "decent" and "great" in terms of on-the-job performance and the unwillingness of many companies around here to settle for less.
  - mynameishere 18y ago
    You could just as easily argue that if more students study engineering its hurts those currently in the industry, that alone is not a reason to be against it. You're so wrong. The whole purpose of bar exams and similar certification requirements in most trades is to limit supply. Almost every profession does this in one way or the other, except engineers.
    - jamiequint 18y ago
      It limits unqualified supply, I'm not against that. The bar doesn't set a hard limit on number of new lawyers per year AFAIK.
    - deleted 18y ago
      [deleted]
  - menloparkbum 18y ago
    I know a lot of companies around here who would gladly pay $150k+ for a truly "great" programmer, if they could only find them. People say this all the time but $150K is a rare salary for a programmer. You have to work at Google for years to be paid that much as a base salary. If a company is offering $150K but can't hire anyone it usually means the company sucks. I.e. it's an overfunded VC time bomb, a boring telecom/security job or something semi-shady.
makecheck 18y ago
What bothers me about the immigration caps is that they appear to be completely arbitrary, as opposed to being in tune with the industries they "serve" or based on some up-to-date metrics. At the very least, they are not rechecked frequently enough. Is it really good for the economy when a company is unable to hire 10 people, because of a "cap" that sounds like it was pulled out of a congressman's left ear? They market these restrictions as trying to "save U.S. jobs", but ironically the caps will kill U.S. jobs when whole companies fail to remain competitive.
- lutorm 18y ago
  They are indeed arbitrary. Moreover, there is no ranking of the applications; Apart from requiring they meet the minimum requirements they are just processed in the order received. Since the minimum requirement for an H1B is just a bachelor's degree, it seems hard to motivate that all those are essential. It seems the process could be improved by either ranking the applications by merit or instead of a quota establishing a higher minimum standard such that those accepted are really outstanding. Another alternative would be to simply uncap the category for those with US advanced degrees -- that cap truly makes no sense. (I should disclose that I'm biased here -- I was denied an H1B last year because of the quota.) That said, none of that would help the person in the article. The simple change of letting H1B dependents work would fix that.
  - furburger 18y ago
    there is no ranking of the applications; Apart from requiring they meet the minimum requirements they are just processed in the order received okay, all H1-B holders who want their applications held up for a year while a reasonable basis for comparison is accumulated, raise their hands
    - potatolicious 18y ago
      Canadian immigration does do ranking in a fairly efficient way: applicants must support documentation on a wide array of subjects, such as educational background, linguistic capability, etc. This is backed up by verification during the (later) interview process. The idea is that each applicant is scored based on things such as English/French fluency (bonus points for both), educational background, field of expertise, etc. You don't need to carefully pore over every case to do some reasonable level of ranking.
wallflower 18y ago
I work with many Indian co-workers, each in various statuses of their citizenship process from H1-B/green card/naturalized. I can honestly say that, as someone born in the U.S., I don't truly appreciate what it means to hold U.S. Citizenship, even after seeing the paperwork/"identured-servitude" to sponsoring company stuff I've seen. In America, the freedom to quit your job and find a new one, does not necessarily translate to those of H1-B status.
- makecheck 18y ago
  Those on visa: - Typically do not quit their jobs (and fear losing them), because their next employer must be found quickly and be willing to sponsor their stay. If they cannot find such an employer, they must leave the country. - Run a (small) risk every single time they travel that they will not be allowed back into the country, to some extent at the discretion of a border guard. - Must jump through hoops just to have family members present, and there have been cases where stupid things happen (like wife is allowed in, but one of two children is not; or, the family members are granted entry at completely different times that may be months apart). - Are charged huge fees for government forms and by the lawyers who are often necessary to prepare forms (costs which might be covered by their company, if they're lucky). - Can wait years...and years...and years...for a green card, for no apparent reason. The government can be silent for many months, and only periodically ask for more information when the application reaches the next stage. Oh, and the information prepared in advance for each stage, such as a medical exam, can expire if they don't reach it soon enough. Most of these steps, in my opinion, are not really "helping", they are just adding bureaucracy and causing unnecessary frustration for human beings who are trying to live their lives.
  - potatolicious 18y ago
    Your second point is the most salient for me - I've worked in the US on a J-1 visa and will be returning soon on a TN... going home to see my folks is a concept that scares the bejeesus out of me. Something most Americans don't fully appreciate is just how bad their border situation is - power-tripping customs officers who will turn a non-citizen around for no reason at all. Unreasonable searches, rudeness, and downright being an asshole. I cannot recall a single instance of crossing the US border where the customs officer was courteous. When I crossed via Vancouver airport, there was an elderly gentleman who had trouble walking, and was shuffling slowly up to the counter when called. The officer in charge berated him as he walked to the counter, and insulted his inability to walk. This is what we, non-Americans, deal with when we visit your country. FIX THIS.
gamble 18y ago
Considering how often Canada is mentioned in this article, they don't dwell on why it was so much easier for the engineer and his wife to get into Canada. (A fate worse than death, apparently.) The key difference between our systems is that Canada issues residency visas, not temporary work visas. Once you have your Canadian permanent residency visa you can work for any employer. Immigrants aren't shackled to a sponsor, so they don't have the same motivation as H1-Bs to accept below-market wages and working conditions. In addition, the Canadian system is biased in favor of skilled workers. The vast majority of American immigrants are unskilled laborers allowed in through the 'family reunification' program. Canada does have a similar program, but the majority of our immigrants are skilled. There is even a fast-track classification for US H1-B holders. The problem with the immigration debate in the US is that it's fundamentally dishonest. Employers lionize immigrants, but the last thing they want is a system that treats them fairly.
- chancho 18y ago
  "In addition, the Canadian system is biased in favor of skilled workers. The vast majority of American immigrants are unskilled laborers allowed in through the 'family reunification' program. Canada does have a similar program, but the majority of our immigrants are skilled." Care to speculate on the reason for this discrepancy, given that the US and Canada have similar family reunification programs? I mean, you say that most of the US's unskilled immigrants come through the family reunification program, but then go on to say that Canada has a similar program so I don't see how that explains the difference.
  - pcc 18y ago
    Afaik there is a quota, something like 60:40 economically active to non-economically active; so priorities are firstly skilled workers (or where there are shortages), then most immediate family, and lastly other family (eg parents, grandparents). Also should perhaps be pointed out that Canada does in fact issue temporary work visas too (not just residency visas), and then there would in fact be constraints on staying with an employer etc. Depending on where one applies from, this is often a faster process than residency; and from that there are avenues such as the provincial nominee program, that allow for expediting the residency process.
scott_s 18y ago
To Mr. Berry, 50 — who lives in Sacramento, where he was born — it is unfathomable that Google, which receives one million résumés a year, cannot find enough qualified Americans. Drawing on my own personal experience, this is flawed reasoning. His argument might hold for rank-n-file programming jobs, but the Indian native profiled in the article does not fill a rank-n-file job. The second-best candidate for his job is likely an order of magnitude less qualified. I'm in a CS department at a large state university. I've done an internship in the research division of a large company that depends on innovation to survive. Most of my colleagues are foreign-born. In the case of the company, if those colleagues weren't employed, the work wouldn't get done. These people have unique skills and expertise - that was, not coincidentally, honed at American universities. Filling their positions with the closest qualified American you can find wouldn't result in a slight delay. The project they're on would collapse.
- geebee 18y ago
  I agree with you in the short term. But I think that the long term absence of employable Americans may be caused, in part, by the programs that make it easy to hire foreign nationals instead of Americans in engineering and science. There are a lot of really smart Americans working in law, finance, medicine, and so forth. Do you think these folks are too dumb to work in software? Or are they just rationally responding to a market glut, driven in part by the presence of the H1B program? I think our policy has driven young Americans out of engineering. To just consider the few Americans who did get these degrees is shortsighted. You have to consider the eighth graders, high school students, and first year college students who have been deterred from entering the field. Because we controlled the wages of engineers with a visa program, but not finance or legal professionals, we deterred our own from going into these fields (creating a more severe shortage, necessitating more visas, creating an even worse shortage, until we had finally reached the point where Americans were no longer even remotely interested in this field). Basically, America "foreignized" engineering to the point where we no longer have a home grown, self sustaining engineering profession. This has left us extremely vulnerable - even if we do offer the visas, there's no guarantee we can staff these jobs in the US anymore. By the way, I do think that a robust home-grown engineering field would be enhanced by the presence of many foreign born practitioners. But I think we pushed it to the point where actively undermined the careers of young Americans in engineering, and the next wave of students voted with their feet. Yes, allow in talented engineers. No, don't leave the level so high that Americans are deterred. A bit of a shortage that causes wage growth and stimulates interest would be a good thing. Just remember: once bitten, twice shy.
mahmud 18y ago
Stories like these are often a pretext for pushing laws that flood the U.S. market with cheap foreign labor. If you're hurting for a niche expertise and can't "find" someone here, fine, open an office in wherever you think the grass is greener talent-wise. Google can afford that, right? I think I have a better use for my startup capital than an immigration lawyer; plenty of good people here, I mean, after all, they only built the greatest economy in the world. If any American wants to down-vote me for this, just go ahead and try to get a _job_ overseas. Your ass will be chewed by local taxes, foreigner taxes and nationalist laws. And I say this as a _recent_ U.S. national; I came here with just a carry-on bag and $50 when I was 16.
- neuro 18y ago
  greed is downvoting you
- potatolicious 18y ago
  "If any American wants to down-vote me for this, just go ahead and try to get a _job_ overseas." The failings of other, less-wise countries is not an excuse to fail along with them. They are xenophobic and protectionist, and turn away talent that can increase their nation's competitiveness... the US should not make that same mistake. And keep in mind that a disproportionate number of big players who "built the greatest economy in the world" are themselves immigrants. Your argument that home-grown talent alone will suffice holds no water - historically the US has always relied on heavy talent import, and there is nothing wrong with this.
varun 18y ago
This is a great article. And thanks to jey for posting this. On a side note, reading it I found out that Sanjay is based in Toronto currently, which is where I am, so I just reached out to him and would be chatting with him a bit more about startups, immigration, etc soon. Small world, and thanks HN! :)

54 points by jey 18y ago

pj 18y ago

There are lots of great programmers in the United States, they just want to be paid more than immigrants, so the companies lobby congress to allow them to import more cheap softare factories. It's the same at every level of society.

dustineichler 18y ago
You speak the truth, but hesitate to enumerate on the reality.
jey 18y ago
Sure, cheap idiots shouldn't be allowed to immigrate into the USA. I'm totally against the trend of mass produced know-nothing "programmers" who were imported into the US in the late 90's and early 2000's. But there's a lot of legitimately intelligent and capable people out there, and it's in our best interest to try and get them to play for Team USA.
boundlessdreamz 18y ago
If you had actually bothered to read the article, you will find that the person featured has been educated in US from when he was 14. He went to Harvard. Now do you want such a person to be just sent back because he is an "immigrant" or that his skill and intelligence be recognized and make it such that it is easy for him to work in US, contributing to the US economy. The US attracted the best and the brightest. If you insist on sending them back because they are "immigrants" then the loss is not just theirs.From the article "Many innovators in Silicon Valley come from overseas; 42 percent of engineers with master’s degrees and 60 percent of those with engineering Ph.D.’s in the United States are foreign-born." Do you know why Chinese and Indians population in Universities are increasing? Because in those cultures being a geek is cool, unlike in US. In China and US, the topper in the school is the super star unlike in US where it will be the college football captain. The toppers from such places come to US because the US universities are far ahead in higher education. But if you send these people back, this lead in education will slowly evaporate as the best students go back to their country instead of staying on and becoming entrepreneurs and professors.
- boundlessdreamz 18y ago
  Thinking about it, the founder visa idea that pg proposed is aimed at the kind of people like the guy featured in the article.
- code_devil 18y ago
  I came in 2001(18 yrs) for my BS in Comp Sc and I am currently in my H1-B. The Green Card process is long and far away, so I don't even think about it. However, I see a few drawbacks of being on H1: i. It hampers my capability to jump jobs to risky startups, because if that startup goes bust, I need to find a job in 2 months to stay in the country. Especially with a recessionary season, it adds to the risk while your existing employer is pretty strong. ii. I am always looking for avenues to work on Ideas, and I do that too. But, because I need to be employed to maintain my Visa Status, I can only devote my evenings and weekends. iii. I am also worried about the Laws (Immigration and other) that may prevent me from having my own venture etc. I have been in the US for close to 10 years(8 years now and 2 years when I was a Kid). So, I have lived most of my decision making, understanding the world, ups/downs of life here in the US and I feel really connected to this country and really love it. I even pay good amount of Tax dollars plus work for a US company that works towards the growth of the US economy even in this downturn. But my fate still lies on the Immigration Policy. Another point I wanted to mention was about my experience in College. In my freshman year I realized hanging out with kids that went to Highschool here that being Smart in school equates to being a Geek, which is not considered Hip and Cool. On the contrary back home in India where I grew up, being smart(not necessarily Geek) was considered Cool and everyone wants to be friends with the Smart Kid. Luckily, it worked out good for me as I had a solid academic background from India and then had cool friends out here.
  - Hexstream 18y ago
    I'm Curious about where your Habit of Capitalizing so many Words come from?...
  - furburger 18y ago
    okay come on you have totally warped expectations of what a work visa provides. work visas are not created to allow you to wonder silicon valley looking for cool startups to join. nor should it. thats what residency visas are for. a work visa should be tied to an employer. you seem to think you need a work visa in order to get a residency visa...no. tens of thousands of people every year become US citizens simply because they want to.
jamiequint 18y ago
This is pretty much true at any level of supply (increase supply and the price will drop). You could just as easily argue that if more students study engineering its hurts those currently in the industry, that alone is not a reason to be against it. From talking to my other friends with startups in the Bay Area it is apparent that there are not enough good engineers here. I had a conversation last weekend with one of my friends who always struggles to find good Ruby engineers, even at above market prices, and using every recruitment method available. As the founder of a company originally started to help companies hire technical talent I've seen this firsthand. Everyone is frustrated with recruiters piping them lots of unqualified resumes, Dice, Monster, and Craigslist also provide high volume, but often low quality. Even the niche boards are underperforming. If there are really "lots of great programmers" in the US where are they? I know a lot of companies around here who would gladly pay $150k+ for a truly "great" programmer, if they could only find them. Maybe part of the problem is the vast difference between "decent" and "great" in terms of on-the-job performance and the unwillingness of many companies around here to settle for less.
- mynameishere 18y ago
  You could just as easily argue that if more students study engineering its hurts those currently in the industry, that alone is not a reason to be against it. You're so wrong. The whole purpose of bar exams and similar certification requirements in most trades is to limit supply. Almost every profession does this in one way or the other, except engineers.
  - jamiequint 18y ago
    It limits unqualified supply, I'm not against that. The bar doesn't set a hard limit on number of new lawyers per year AFAIK.
  - deleted 18y ago
    [deleted]
- menloparkbum 18y ago
  I know a lot of companies around here who would gladly pay $150k+ for a truly "great" programmer, if they could only find them. People say this all the time but $150K is a rare salary for a programmer. You have to work at Google for years to be paid that much as a base salary. If a company is offering $150K but can't hire anyone it usually means the company sucks. I.e. it's an overfunded VC time bomb, a boring telecom/security job or something semi-shady.

makecheck 18y ago

What bothers me about the immigration caps is that they appear to be completely arbitrary, as opposed to being in tune with the industries they "serve" or based on some up-to-date metrics. At the very least, they are not rechecked frequently enough. Is it really good for the economy when a company is unable to hire 10 people, because of a "cap" that sounds like it was pulled out of a congressman's left ear? They market these restrictions as trying to "save U.S. jobs", but ironically the caps will kill U.S. jobs when whole companies fail to remain competitive.

lutorm 18y ago
They are indeed arbitrary. Moreover, there is no ranking of the applications; Apart from requiring they meet the minimum requirements they are just processed in the order received. Since the minimum requirement for an H1B is just a bachelor's degree, it seems hard to motivate that all those are essential. It seems the process could be improved by either ranking the applications by merit or instead of a quota establishing a higher minimum standard such that those accepted are really outstanding. Another alternative would be to simply uncap the category for those with US advanced degrees -- that cap truly makes no sense. (I should disclose that I'm biased here -- I was denied an H1B last year because of the quota.) That said, none of that would help the person in the article. The simple change of letting H1B dependents work would fix that.
- furburger 18y ago
  there is no ranking of the applications; Apart from requiring they meet the minimum requirements they are just processed in the order received okay, all H1-B holders who want their applications held up for a year while a reasonable basis for comparison is accumulated, raise their hands
  - potatolicious 18y ago
    Canadian immigration does do ranking in a fairly efficient way: applicants must support documentation on a wide array of subjects, such as educational background, linguistic capability, etc. This is backed up by verification during the (later) interview process. The idea is that each applicant is scored based on things such as English/French fluency (bonus points for both), educational background, field of expertise, etc. You don't need to carefully pore over every case to do some reasonable level of ranking.

wallflower 18y ago

I work with many Indian co-workers, each in various statuses of their citizenship process from H1-B/green card/naturalized. I can honestly say that, as someone born in the U.S., I don't truly appreciate what it means to hold U.S. Citizenship, even after seeing the paperwork/"identured-servitude" to sponsoring company stuff I've seen. In America, the freedom to quit your job and find a new one, does not necessarily translate to those of H1-B status.

makecheck 18y ago
Those on visa: - Typically do not quit their jobs (and fear losing them), because their next employer must be found quickly and be willing to sponsor their stay. If they cannot find such an employer, they must leave the country. - Run a (small) risk every single time they travel that they will not be allowed back into the country, to some extent at the discretion of a border guard. - Must jump through hoops just to have family members present, and there have been cases where stupid things happen (like wife is allowed in, but one of two children is not; or, the family members are granted entry at completely different times that may be months apart). - Are charged huge fees for government forms and by the lawyers who are often necessary to prepare forms (costs which might be covered by their company, if they're lucky). - Can wait years...and years...and years...for a green card, for no apparent reason. The government can be silent for many months, and only periodically ask for more information when the application reaches the next stage. Oh, and the information prepared in advance for each stage, such as a medical exam, can expire if they don't reach it soon enough. Most of these steps, in my opinion, are not really "helping", they are just adding bureaucracy and causing unnecessary frustration for human beings who are trying to live their lives.
- potatolicious 18y ago
  Your second point is the most salient for me - I've worked in the US on a J-1 visa and will be returning soon on a TN... going home to see my folks is a concept that scares the bejeesus out of me. Something most Americans don't fully appreciate is just how bad their border situation is - power-tripping customs officers who will turn a non-citizen around for no reason at all. Unreasonable searches, rudeness, and downright being an asshole. I cannot recall a single instance of crossing the US border where the customs officer was courteous. When I crossed via Vancouver airport, there was an elderly gentleman who had trouble walking, and was shuffling slowly up to the counter when called. The officer in charge berated him as he walked to the counter, and insulted his inability to walk. This is what we, non-Americans, deal with when we visit your country. FIX THIS.

gamble 18y ago

Considering how often Canada is mentioned in this article, they don't dwell on why it was so much easier for the engineer and his wife to get into Canada. (A fate worse than death, apparently.) The key difference between our systems is that Canada issues residency visas, not temporary work visas. Once you have your Canadian permanent residency visa you can work for any employer. Immigrants aren't shackled to a sponsor, so they don't have the same motivation as H1-Bs to accept below-market wages and working conditions. In addition, the Canadian system is biased in favor of skilled workers. The vast majority of American immigrants are unskilled laborers allowed in through the 'family reunification' program. Canada does have a similar program, but the majority of our immigrants are skilled. There is even a fast-track classification for US H1-B holders. The problem with the immigration debate in the US is that it's fundamentally dishonest. Employers lionize immigrants, but the last thing they want is a system that treats them fairly.

chancho 18y ago
"In addition, the Canadian system is biased in favor of skilled workers. The vast majority of American immigrants are unskilled laborers allowed in through the 'family reunification' program. Canada does have a similar program, but the majority of our immigrants are skilled." Care to speculate on the reason for this discrepancy, given that the US and Canada have similar family reunification programs? I mean, you say that most of the US's unskilled immigrants come through the family reunification program, but then go on to say that Canada has a similar program so I don't see how that explains the difference.
- pcc 18y ago
  Afaik there is a quota, something like 60:40 economically active to non-economically active; so priorities are firstly skilled workers (or where there are shortages), then most immediate family, and lastly other family (eg parents, grandparents). Also should perhaps be pointed out that Canada does in fact issue temporary work visas too (not just residency visas), and then there would in fact be constraints on staying with an employer etc. Depending on where one applies from, this is often a faster process than residency; and from that there are avenues such as the provincial nominee program, that allow for expediting the residency process.

scott_s 18y ago

To Mr. Berry, 50 — who lives in Sacramento, where he was born — it is unfathomable that Google, which receives one million résumés a year, cannot find enough qualified Americans. Drawing on my own personal experience, this is flawed reasoning. His argument might hold for rank-n-file programming jobs, but the Indian native profiled in the article does not fill a rank-n-file job. The second-best candidate for his job is likely an order of magnitude less qualified. I'm in a CS department at a large state university. I've done an internship in the research division of a large company that depends on innovation to survive. Most of my colleagues are foreign-born. In the case of the company, if those colleagues weren't employed, the work wouldn't get done. These people have unique skills and expertise - that was, not coincidentally, honed at American universities. Filling their positions with the closest qualified American you can find wouldn't result in a slight delay. The project they're on would collapse.

geebee 18y ago
I agree with you in the short term. But I think that the long term absence of employable Americans may be caused, in part, by the programs that make it easy to hire foreign nationals instead of Americans in engineering and science. There are a lot of really smart Americans working in law, finance, medicine, and so forth. Do you think these folks are too dumb to work in software? Or are they just rationally responding to a market glut, driven in part by the presence of the H1B program? I think our policy has driven young Americans out of engineering. To just consider the few Americans who did get these degrees is shortsighted. You have to consider the eighth graders, high school students, and first year college students who have been deterred from entering the field. Because we controlled the wages of engineers with a visa program, but not finance or legal professionals, we deterred our own from going into these fields (creating a more severe shortage, necessitating more visas, creating an even worse shortage, until we had finally reached the point where Americans were no longer even remotely interested in this field). Basically, America "foreignized" engineering to the point where we no longer have a home grown, self sustaining engineering profession. This has left us extremely vulnerable - even if we do offer the visas, there's no guarantee we can staff these jobs in the US anymore. By the way, I do think that a robust home-grown engineering field would be enhanced by the presence of many foreign born practitioners. But I think we pushed it to the point where actively undermined the careers of young Americans in engineering, and the next wave of students voted with their feet. Yes, allow in talented engineers. No, don't leave the level so high that Americans are deterred. A bit of a shortage that causes wage growth and stimulates interest would be a good thing. Just remember: once bitten, twice shy.

mahmud 18y ago

Stories like these are often a pretext for pushing laws that flood the U.S. market with cheap foreign labor. If you're hurting for a niche expertise and can't "find" someone here, fine, open an office in wherever you think the grass is greener talent-wise. Google can afford that, right? I think I have a better use for my startup capital than an immigration lawyer; plenty of good people here, I mean, after all, they only built the greatest economy in the world. If any American wants to down-vote me for this, just go ahead and try to get a _job_ overseas. Your ass will be chewed by local taxes, foreigner taxes and nationalist laws. And I say this as a _recent_ U.S. national; I came here with just a carry-on bag and $50 when I was 16.

neuro 18y ago
greed is downvoting you
potatolicious 18y ago
"If any American wants to down-vote me for this, just go ahead and try to get a _job_ overseas." The failings of other, less-wise countries is not an excuse to fail along with them. They are xenophobic and protectionist, and turn away talent that can increase their nation's competitiveness... the US should not make that same mistake. And keep in mind that a disproportionate number of big players who "built the greatest economy in the world" are themselves immigrants. Your argument that home-grown talent alone will suffice holds no water - historically the US has always relied on heavy talent import, and there is nothing wrong with this.

varun 18y ago

This is a great article. And thanks to jey for posting this. On a side note, reading it I found out that Sanjay is based in Toronto currently, which is where I am, so I just reached out to him and would be chatting with him a bit more about startups, immigration, etc soon. Small world, and thanks HN! :)