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How to work with Software Engineers
- hawleyal 14y agoI see what you did there.
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- goyalpulkit 14y agoAll I was thinking was how wrong could this be until I reached the 17th slide.
- michaelochurch 14y agoI loved it because I actually believed it (with vehement disagreement) until about a third of the way through.
- bluehex 14y agoI hated it for the same reason. I find this kind of sarcasm manipulative. The piece had me pissed off by the end until the reveal, which made me even more angry. Maybe as a talk it might be slightly more tolerable since you can presumably hear the sarcasm in the speaker's voice.
- goyalpulkit 14y agoI pity the engineers whose managers read this list but don't go all the way to the end.
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- seivan 14y agoStart the morning with some coffee and sarcasm. Fun read. Though it might be problematic that some managers might take it serious. Usually the dumb ones.
- michaelochurch 14y agoI think that's why he said (paraphrased) "I troll U" at the end. Most software engineers would get the joke immediately, but many managers wouldn't. The problem is that executives never read to the end of anything. They still have to call their kids (or interns, same thing really) in to show them how to work a "scrollie bar". There was a very large company that required every employee to submit a 63-word summary of accomplishments per quarter (do they still do this?) I pointed out, rather publicly, that this was precisely the low-end of adult reading speed (3.5-8.0 words per second being the typical range) times the short-term memory loop (18 seconds). That didn't go over well. Ah, managers. They sure love sunbathing in the Yucatan, but that bright point just above them isn't the sun...
- mwfunk 14y agoI can't tell if this is parody, or a parody of a parody, or a parody of a parody of a parody. The tone is very much like the original article, but as if written by a hypothetical Scumbag Steve software engineer rather than an imaginary Scumbag Steve management type.
- ttrreeww 14y ago...and then they get promoted.
- fotbr 14y agoThe sad part is that my current boss follows his "do not" list to the letter. Yes, I'm working on leaving. Eight hours of that crap in the office, then usually 2-3 hours of job hunting in the evening after working in the yard or otherwise getting the house ready to sell.
- krmmalik 14y agoThe even sadder part is that the "do not" way of working is the norm and the "do" is the exception in majority of the workplaces. And what these people in leadership positions don't realise is that it's good management that creates great results which directly affects the bottom line. This is why the good start-ups do well because they manage better which results in better output.
- p0wl 14y agohave in mind that this will only work if you have great workers, that are able and willing to help theirselves. This attitude will be destroyed by continous bad leadership and will not come back very fast.
- krmmalik 14y agoTell me about it. Been there, done that. But to be fair, if you have good management, they'll do a good job of hiring in the right type of people as well. So it works both ways.
- ttrreeww 14y agoActually, I've seen startups where this is the norm as well. It's inherent in a lot of "career managers", that is how they got to where they are now.
- krmmalik 14y agoThat's why I said good start-ups :) I've been part of the not-so-good start-ups myself and have experienced "career managers" first-hand. I totally don't understand how they got their in the first place though. I just don't get it?
- michaelochurch 14y agoThat's brilliant. However, I don't think it's only PMs who indulge in that behavior. I've seen managers and engineers (yes, indeed) do the same shit. Internal competition within companies is pure corrosion and it's always detrimental. I'm convinced that there are no exceptions to that. The rare good manager is K-selective insofar as she intends to reproduce (scale) processes with quality and moral decency. If she runs a company, she won't hire before she trusts, and she'll make sure everyone gets credit and autonomy. Most managers are r-selectors, though; they over-hire, don't trust, and throw shit at the wall until something sticks. The egoistic bad-guy PMs being described here are the ones who thrive in the typical r-strategist corporation.
- GFischer 14y agoHad to look up R and K selection: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R/K_selection_theory http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R/K_selection_theory
- michaelochurch 14y agoIt's what I'm focusing on as I study organizational decline. It turns out that the metaphor (reproduction of processes, skill sets, and values) applies to corporate life. The reason most jobs suck balls is that most companies are r-strategists. The r-selective alpha male was the harem owner who treated his "wives" like chattel and invested nothing in his (hundreds of) children, most of whom would fail. It was "spray and pray". The K-strategist was the monogamist who treated his one wife well (often, as an equal) and invested heavily in the health of mother and children. The r-strategist boss doesn't mentor employees, creates a sink-or-swim environment, and over-hires, generating internal competition, which is always toxic. The K-strategist hires more slowly but invests trust and interest in the people brought in. Of course, r-strategist companies grow a lot faster and, in many spaces, are much more "fit", but I believe that's going to change amid the convexity of post-technological work.
- aswanson 14y agoCould you expound on what you mean by post technological work?
- krmmalik 14y agoGrrr. I was going to do a presentation on exactly this next week, and have just put a presentation together on management that pretty much says all these things but Kenneth has done a far better job. I guess I'll go in the corner and sulk. Just kidding :)
- jschuur 14y agoI wish this post were written in a less sarcastic tone and more directly. It's an important topic and deserves to be less off putting than it otherwise seems at first.
- ojbyrne 14y agoIt's a long standing rhetorical device known as "humor."
- cllns 14y agoThe OP seems to be aware of this. He's stating it would have been better to just state his 10 points rather than hide behind sarcasm. (I agree.)
- Scottopherson 14y agoWhile I enjoyed OP's article, this article is a bit more serious and detailed: http://www.nczonline.net/blog/2012/06/12/the-care-and-feeding-of-software-engineers-or-why-engineers-are-grumpy/ http://www.nczonline.net/blog/2012/06/12/the-care-and-feedin...
- Kurtz79 14y agoHonestly, I didn't find the article particularly funny or original, but I can't really blame the author for it. It's probably one of the cases where reality exceeds the worst exaggerations one can come up with.
- _pmf_ 14y agoI actually looked up the cited book in vague hope and was moderately disappointed; I'd read it.
- edw519 14y agoCute. Nice fake list. Nice writing. The "true" list at the end, like a Hollywood ending, was probably not necessary. Now my list: 1. You don't "work with" software engineers. We don't even "work with" each other. If you don't learn anything else from this, get this: we work alone. Always. Even when we think we don't. Sure, we occasionally get together to plan, analyze, discuss, white board, even "pair program" whatever that means, but sooner or later, we all sit down alone and do what we do. With that in mind... 2. Leave us the fuck alone! If you see a software engineer looking at a screen and typing, that means we're BUSY. Do not interrupt. Do not call. Do not text. Do not IM. Do ask if we're busy (WE are!). Do not tap us on our shoulder. And whatever you do, don't just stand there waiting for us to stop typing (We won't; that's a test of wills you will lose). Just send an email. That's it. When we break, we'll check email and reply. If you don't write well enough to communicate with us, then learn how to. (If my language seems a little strong, it's because I feel so strongly about this. Nothing is more frustrating to us than having work to do and being kept from doing it when we want to. We often need large blocks of time and room to focus deeply.) 3. Don't try to understand how we work, what makes us tick, what turns us on, or the "secret" to making us more productive. a. All those things are different for every one of us. b. We don't even know what they are ourselves. 4. Don't patronize us. Sure, we all appreciate beer, donuts, chocolate, and foosball, just like everybody else, but don't bother trying to get something from us with a gimmick. It may work once or twice, but then never again. That shit doesn't even work on your dog. Why do you think it would work with us? 5. Provide us with the resources we need. This is pretty binary. Do this and get results. Don't do this and don't get results. For the most part, we're fairly easy. A comfortable chair. A decent machine. Good lighting. Fresh air or HVAC. Peace and quiet. Decent facilities. Specs or requirements > 50% accurate. (Forget about 100% accurate; none of us has ever seen that; we'll live with 50-80%.). 6. When we tell you we need something, believe us!.If we need clarification on something, get it. If we need more time, give it to us. If we need access to someone/something, make it happen. 7. Never lie to us. We are used to our machines always telling the truth. We insist on no less from other humans. 8. Contrary to common belief, we do not hate the following classes of things, we just hate idiotic instances of them: meetings, status reports, timesheets, processes, procedures, policies, mission statements, motivational posters, HR, reviews, interviews, reports, specs, and team-building exercises. 9. The best thing you could possibly do for us: everything you must and not one thing more. 10. Top ten lists suck (except this one).
- rcavezza 14y agoIt wasn't until I read the hn comments here that I noticed the "No, don't do any of these things" part of the post. I think he should make the bold NO in the slideshow much more noticeable in the blogpost. The sad part is that most PMs I know skim too and will have all the wrong takeaways from this post.
- ricardobeat 14y agoIf someone goes past the 1.000.000 estimate in the third paragraph without feeling uncomfortable, he deserves it.
- GhotiFish 14y agoHe has slides. Did he do a talk? Was there a video? because that would be a great video.
- kennethn 14y agoIt wasn't officially recorded, although audience members might have captured some of it. I wish it had been: I can only really give this talk once. As an aside, if you're not familiar with the Ignite format it's great. You have 20 slides, and each slide auto-advances after 15 sec. So I really had to practice the timing.
- hvs 14y agoI know where this article is coming from, but I guess I've just been lucky to work with a lot of great PMs that: 1) Are a firewall between upper management and the development team. 2) Organize the priorities of the team and help the developers to get the most done in the limited amount of time that they have. 3) Follow up on business requirements and the thousands of other details that need to be figured out so that the client doesn't say, "what the hell is this?" on delivery day even though it is precisely what they asked for (but not what they wanted). 4) Praise the team for the great work that they've been doing and make their successes known to management. I've worked with as many (or more) crap developers as I have PMs, so I'm always wary of articles like this. It's way too easy to talk about how management/sales/PMs/etc don't add any value to the process (which is patently false) while lionizing the work of the developer as if they are all dedicated, hardworking, and never, ever, make mistakes. This "us vs. them" mentality that exists is ridiculous. We are all trying to accomplish something. Some are better than others at it. But don't shit on someone else's job, complain about how you want to be left alone, and then wonder why your career isn't going anywhere.
- bmj 14y agoThis has generally been my experience, but even the best product manager I've worked with will occasionally do something, well, dumb. Just like engineers do sometimes.
- dsdjung 14y agoA good guide, but not an answer to all. Software Engineers are humans, and everyone of them are different. So, if you want to work with Software Engineers well, get to know them first.
- krmmalik 14y agoThis is the point I agree with the most. When I first started working with developers, a person I highly respect said to me that the most important thing you can do when working with anyone in a technical field is to win their respect. You don't have to be an ace at development or engineering yourself. You don't have to know the craft as well as they do, but there are many things you can do to earn your delegate's or colleague's trust and respect.
- grigio 14y agoYeah, let's build a baby in a month using 9 moms.. I'm sure You can do it!
- asah 14y agonice one, Ken! All-- having worked with Ken, he's indeed awesome.
- rian 14y agoIs it just me or is this article a bit condescending? This makes it seem like software engineers are exotic creatures that normal people require a guide like this to work with. What if someone made "How to work with PMs" or better yet "How to work with women"? I feel like one of the core problems between PM<->Eng is that both sides stereotype each other, this just perpetuates that. The rules in the afterward make sense but if you need a guide on the internet to get you to do those things, I'm not sure I want you to become a great PM in the first place. The problems here seem to be more fundamental, like: Don't be a psychopath. I think the rest of the rules should follow naturally. Has the profession of PM become so bad that we need "don't be a psychopath" posts?
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- lotyrin 14y agoI think that's intentional. Imagine the impact of your "How to work with women" list with similar satirical pseudo-rationalization of bad behaviors. The existence of the list seems as much an example of what not to do as are its contents.
- rian 14y agoSorry, I knew it was intentional but I mean, despite the sarcasm, it still feels condescending. Just the pure existence of an article with the title "How to work with women," no matter how accurate, would still be condescending and bigoted. It's because all women are different, just as all software engineers are different.
- hcarvalhoalves 14y agoOh my god, this is priceless. Sadly, this is like a manual of what happened in my past job.
- ttrreeww 14y agoI've seen people do this at my last startup, needless to say, they are now tanking. Close to a 100 million VC dollar going down the toilet... Those people got promoted really high too...
- mvkel 14y agoThis is a great list of what _you're_ receptive to, but it's silly to use a person's position as a replacement for their personality. The reality is, not all developers want to be "left alone," just like not all developers want to talk to people. Why not invest in the person and tease out _how_ they want to be interacted with instead of making assumptions one way or the other?
- antonwinter 14y agoa while back there was a post here about quadrant methodology. it fits nicely in with it http://quadrant.tumblr.com/ http://quadrant.tumblr.com/
- wallunit 14y agoI was surprised how many thing the management of the company I'm currently working for is doing right, until I reached the afterword. ;)