4 ms·

Every part of America I have ever been in would not tolerate that. It's illegal.

by 16s 14y ago

wilfra 14y ago
It may not be as bad as some countries where you can just pay the cops but the rich and well connected in America definitely play by a different set of rules, especially with regard to punishment. Example: a rich old woman in my hometown was drunk in the morning and ran over a guy riding a bicycle and killed him. She ended up getting probation. Not a day in jail. Put a poor minority behind the wheel of that car and they are going to prison for a long time.
- rayiner 14y ago
  That's race/age not wealth. If it had been a young, rich, black guy in an Escalade what do you think a jury would have done?
  - wilfra 14y ago
    Depends who his lawyer was and how many people he and his lawyer know in the local criminal justice system. Connections are just as important as wealth - sometimes moreso. See George Zimmerman (father is a judge) who would have walked were it not for the Worldwide media shining a spotlight on the case.
- corporalagumbo 14y ago
  That's an entirely different problem set from what seems to be happening in India. What you're describing in the US is a system where perceptions and punishment of superficially similar behaviour vary based on your position with society, namely based on whether you activate the sympathies or antipathies of the mainstream establishment. I.E. that old lady is much less likely to be perceived as aggressive and anti-social in court than a young minority member. The system is not completely fair, and you can argue about the extent to which the system is unfair, but the system at least holds fairness as an ideal, and the mainstream establishment identifies with this ideal. Cops and judges may not perceive it as unfair if a similar crime when committed by an old rich lady is more likely to be viewed as a regrettable mistake (especially if she appears distraught and repentant in court) than when committed by a minority member. In India it seems like fairness is not even part of the equation. It sounds like a seriously dog-eat-dog environment, where there are few if any checks on raw, ruthless antisocial behaviour. Society lacks even the value system which would encourage the privileged to feel guilt and regret over their treatment of those beneath them. Basically it is the difference between a society where people are shocked and angered by unfairness and a society where people are desensitised or even perversely excited by unfairness.
  - chii 14y ago
    > ...lacks even the value system which would encourage the privileged to feel guilt and regret over their treatment of those beneath them. i'd like to talk a bit about this "value system". While i'd like to believe that in a western society that the value system for me to not steal and murder is built in, i really doubt that's the case. The value system is one which is enforced by laws - and actual enforcement, instead of lip service. I assault a person, i get to go to jail. Imagine if the enforcement isn't there - i'd steal my way thru life! Forget about the morals, when you can have the latest shit for free! This is the exact psyche of a software pirate - because it is unenforceable. I would say that the value system is so poor or non-existent in india could be because they are unable to enforce their laws, or that those with money can get away from the punishment etc. Hence, the poor sees that and assumes that the laws are selectively applied, and that its OK if you get away with it. I m sure things will improve (as things have improved in western society over the past several hundred years - you'd see similar behaviour in the middle/dark ages in europe). It just takes time, and takes wealth build up in such a way that those who are most desperate aren't anymore.
trhtrsh 14y ago
Of course it's illegal, and most people couldn't escape consequences. But the upper class can. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Kennedy#Chappaquiddick_incident http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Kennedy#Chappaquiddick_inci...
- tomkarlo 14y ago
  I'd like to think we've gotten better about it in the last 35 years. If nothing else, the national media would be less likely to keep quiet.
thrownaway2424 14y ago
Whatever one does in America, in a car, is not a crime, even if a dozen people die. http://www.streetsblog.org/2013/04/08/immune-from-prosecution-curb-jumping-nyc-motorists-claim-more-victims/ http://www.streetsblog.org/2013/04/08/immune-from-prosecutio... As a bicyclist, I can tell you as a matter of personal experience that Americans do in fact run bicyclists off the road frequently. I have never heard of such things being prosecuted, even when the cyclists were seriously injured, or when their bike is ruined. Now, why does this happen? It's because the American in his expensive 4-wheel drive Porsche SUV abomination has a certain mindset that he's entitled to something, because he paid a lot of money for his car. When someone is walking or cycling down the road at less than 60 MPH, that person's sense of entitlement becomes enflamed, and they sometimes reach the point of violence. Don't take my word for it. It is a proven fact that people in more expensive cars break the law much more frequently than those in less expensive cars. So you see, sense of entitlement is not just for India. In America, cars are for real people, and anyone on a bicycle must be in the lower caste.
- spikels 14y ago
  I appears you have not heard about the man sentenced to 10+ years in prison for hitting and injuring a bicyclist in Healdsburg, CA (about 70 miles north of San Francisco). The article also mentions two other ongoing prosecutions of drivers for hitting bicyclists in the same area. http://www.pressdemocrat.com/article/20121130/ARTICLES/121139980 http://www.pressdemocrat.com/article/20121130/ARTICLES/12113...
  - thrownaway2424 14y ago
    That was a hit-and-run. If you kill someone with a car, stay at the scene, and aren't obviously intoxicated, police officers will publicly exonerate you in front of local television reporters. This is not true for any other class of crime in America.

Every part of America I have ever been in would not tolerate that. It's illegal.

by 16s 14y ago

Every part of America I have ever been in would not tolerate that. It's illegal.

It may not be as bad as some countries where you can just pay the cops but the rich and well connected in America definitely play by a different set of rules, especially with regard to punishment. Example: a rich old woman in my hometown was drunk in the morning and ran over a guy riding a bicycle and killed him. She ended up getting probation. Not a day in jail. Put a poor minority behind the wheel of that car and they are going to prison for a long time.

rayiner 14y ago
That's race/age not wealth. If it had been a young, rich, black guy in an Escalade what do you think a jury would have done?
- wilfra 14y ago
  Depends who his lawyer was and how many people he and his lawyer know in the local criminal justice system. Connections are just as important as wealth - sometimes moreso. See George Zimmerman (father is a judge) who would have walked were it not for the Worldwide media shining a spotlight on the case.
corporalagumbo 14y ago
That's an entirely different problem set from what seems to be happening in India. What you're describing in the US is a system where perceptions and punishment of superficially similar behaviour vary based on your position with society, namely based on whether you activate the sympathies or antipathies of the mainstream establishment. I.E. that old lady is much less likely to be perceived as aggressive and anti-social in court than a young minority member. The system is not completely fair, and you can argue about the extent to which the system is unfair, but the system at least holds fairness as an ideal, and the mainstream establishment identifies with this ideal. Cops and judges may not perceive it as unfair if a similar crime when committed by an old rich lady is more likely to be viewed as a regrettable mistake (especially if she appears distraught and repentant in court) than when committed by a minority member. In India it seems like fairness is not even part of the equation. It sounds like a seriously dog-eat-dog environment, where there are few if any checks on raw, ruthless antisocial behaviour. Society lacks even the value system which would encourage the privileged to feel guilt and regret over their treatment of those beneath them. Basically it is the difference between a society where people are shocked and angered by unfairness and a society where people are desensitised or even perversely excited by unfairness.
- chii 14y ago
  > ...lacks even the value system which would encourage the privileged to feel guilt and regret over their treatment of those beneath them. i'd like to talk a bit about this "value system". While i'd like to believe that in a western society that the value system for me to not steal and murder is built in, i really doubt that's the case. The value system is one which is enforced by laws - and actual enforcement, instead of lip service. I assault a person, i get to go to jail. Imagine if the enforcement isn't there - i'd steal my way thru life! Forget about the morals, when you can have the latest shit for free! This is the exact psyche of a software pirate - because it is unenforceable. I would say that the value system is so poor or non-existent in india could be because they are unable to enforce their laws, or that those with money can get away from the punishment etc. Hence, the poor sees that and assumes that the laws are selectively applied, and that its OK if you get away with it. I m sure things will improve (as things have improved in western society over the past several hundred years - you'd see similar behaviour in the middle/dark ages in europe). It just takes time, and takes wealth build up in such a way that those who are most desperate aren't anymore.

trhtrsh 14y ago

Of course it's illegal, and most people couldn't escape consequences. But the upper class can. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Kennedy#Chappaquiddick_incident http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Kennedy#Chappaquiddick_inci...

tomkarlo 14y ago
I'd like to think we've gotten better about it in the last 35 years. If nothing else, the national media would be less likely to keep quiet.

thrownaway2424 14y ago

Whatever one does in America, in a car, is not a crime, even if a dozen people die. http://www.streetsblog.org/2013/04/08/immune-from-prosecution-curb-jumping-nyc-motorists-claim-more-victims/ http://www.streetsblog.org/2013/04/08/immune-from-prosecutio... As a bicyclist, I can tell you as a matter of personal experience that Americans do in fact run bicyclists off the road frequently. I have never heard of such things being prosecuted, even when the cyclists were seriously injured, or when their bike is ruined. Now, why does this happen? It's because the American in his expensive 4-wheel drive Porsche SUV abomination has a certain mindset that he's entitled to something, because he paid a lot of money for his car. When someone is walking or cycling down the road at less than 60 MPH, that person's sense of entitlement becomes enflamed, and they sometimes reach the point of violence. Don't take my word for it. It is a proven fact that people in more expensive cars break the law much more frequently than those in less expensive cars. So you see, sense of entitlement is not just for India. In America, cars are for real people, and anyone on a bicycle must be in the lower caste.

spikels 14y ago
I appears you have not heard about the man sentenced to 10+ years in prison for hitting and injuring a bicyclist in Healdsburg, CA (about 70 miles north of San Francisco). The article also mentions two other ongoing prosecutions of drivers for hitting bicyclists in the same area. http://www.pressdemocrat.com/article/20121130/ARTICLES/121139980 http://www.pressdemocrat.com/article/20121130/ARTICLES/12113...
- thrownaway2424 14y ago
  That was a hit-and-run. If you kill someone with a car, stay at the scene, and aren't obviously intoxicated, police officers will publicly exonerate you in front of local television reporters. This is not true for any other class of crime in America.