29 ms·

Lulu: An App No One Should Accept

210 points by triplec1988 14y ago

insickness 14y ago
As a notorious womanizer, this app enrages me. I will have no choice now but to become a caring, sensitive, one-woman man. Damn you Lulu!!!
thebiglebrewski 14y ago
Tried signing up for it with a fake Facebook account with gender set to female, and it did not work. I still think this is really effed up - but honestly was genuinely curious to see what is on this thing! Kind of to see what girls I know that would even use this.
jlebrech 14y ago
isn't lulu a self-publishing service?
- Swizec 14y ago
  Yes, lulu.com is a print-on-demand service. This seems to be a different Lulu ... I was confused too.
  - latterd 14y ago
    FYI onlulu.com
- mkr-hn 14y ago
  Lulu is a name. Services and products often use generic terms and names.
  - salgernon 14y ago
    I think Clan McDonald would probably have a problem starting a chain of restaurants. I was completely confused by this online service (app or not) having the same name as another online service.
jgrahamc 14y ago
I can't help feeling that the people who use such an app to date and rate deserve each other.
- jeffreybaird 14y ago
  The issue is men don't use the app. I downloaded it on my SO's phone and was able to find most of the college age guys I know on it. None of them knew they were on there.
  - mseebach 14y ago
    Have each of them demand a dump of their reviews from the service, as they're entitled to under EU data protection directive. If there's anything libellous in there, try to get a newspaper interested. The Daily Mail is probably a good choice for this mixture of sex and scandal.
  - dfxm12 14y ago
    The issue is men don't use the app. I think the issue is men can't use the app.
    - tomjen3 14y ago
      Really. How the hell do they check that the user is a man? Facial recognition?
      - dfxm12 14y ago
        No idea. You have to install the app on your phone, so it can read your phone's accounts. I think a Google account is required on an Android phone. Google accounts have gender in their profile (remember the G+ fiasco?). You also have to link it to Facebook, so it has access to your Facebook data as well. Maybe they don't like new Facebook accounts with zero activity, but certainly there is a usecase for women who want to use this app, but don't want to use Facebook (I would think there is a usecase for women who don't have smartphones as well). Not sure about the iPhone flow. This thought exercise is really making me scared about how much the owners of the apps on my phone know about me!
gngeal 14y ago
Write a polar opposite. Push it through the same channels. If someone has it taken down, cry "sexism!" and demand the same for "Lulu" (an idiotic name, anyway). UPDATE: Or perhaps not. After looking at the web site, it seems that this service, and a bad review of my person, is precisely the thing to repel exactly the kind of women I've never wanted to have anything common with.
- GotAnyMegadeth 14y ago
  Perhaps it's named after the equally high quality Metallica album
  - gngeal 14y ago
    If nothing else, there is already a publishing service with the same name. If I were running it, I'd seriously consider some legal steps. This smells of potential defamation by association. "I've published my book on Lulu.com." "Oh, is that the horrible sexist girl gossip website?" "I didn't know they were running it. I'll tell my friends to stop buying their books from there."
- 9392732 14y ago
  Would it be possible to sign up, scrape all the data then publish it anonymously?
  - TazeTSchnitzel 14y ago
    Well, there's an android version. Someone just needs to hack at it with a Java decompiler and find the internal API calls.
pointyhatuk 14y ago
I can't imagine they would get away with this in the EU. One data protection request and subsequent slander case would destroy them in an instant. I find the whole idea objectionable at every level and about as innovative as "rate my poo".
shanelja 14y ago
Lets not act as though this is in anyway revolutionary, people have bitched behind other peoples backs for as long as there have been people. Bitterness, anger and jealousy are unfortunately some of the strongest traits we humans have, especially when it comes to our interactions with one another, this application, while on the surface immoral, is simply providing a means for this to happen online. I don't in anyway agree with this application or the practices it supports and the tags come across as misandric but people will be people, if they don't bitch here it will be on more public venues, such as Facebook or Twitter, at least here I don't have to see the self absorbed whinging simply by virtue of never visiting the app. That aside, I hope the creators provide some means of men removing themselves from the website or there could very soon be some kind of law suit coming there way, regardless of their contrived TOS.
- ry0ohki 14y ago
  I think there is a difference between people bitching in private, and it being something publicly searchable by people who just met you. One bad date and suddenly you have a reputation that follows you forever? (Assuming people used this app of course)
  - shanelja 14y ago
    Oh, definitely, that's why I added the last paragraph. That being said, I would find it a good indicator, if the person you were dating took notice of this drivel, they are probably the kind of person you don't want to be dating anyway. I think the biggest issue is the complete anonymity which is inherently given online, even if it asked for identities, these can easily be faked. What is to stop a jealous co-worker or an annoyed sister, or even a drunk friend from tarnishing your public image online by saying you treat them badly, or even worse, raped them, over an application like this?
    - visarga 14y ago
      Or another man. Men could use this to slander their competition.
- 14y ago
dash2 14y ago
I think it's hilarious and a brilliant idea. Everyone knows that dating is a lemons market, what's wrong with trying to fix it? And presumably you can rate things how you want... so if people want to put #Big.Feet or #AlwaysPays, that's their choice.
- shanelja 14y ago
  That you felt the need to make a new account simply to post this comment shows that you don't fully agree with your own point of view.
  - Flimm 14y ago
    No, it doesn't. Social shame does not imply lack of conviction or misinformation.
antr 14y ago
In recent times I've gotten the impression that their is a double standard going on regarding certain (not all) services and events that are only targeted to women. If this had been an app for men rating and alerting them about certain women all hell would of broke loose.
- speeder 14y ago
  There are a couple of schools around the world targeted at men, or women... One very interesting thing, is that schools targeted at women are seem as "traditional" and "bastions" or "empowering", specially if they are ancient and do have good education... Men schools, once regarded in the same way, are now being attacked, one of the best schools in the US for example is being sued for not taking female students, and a common tag attached to them is "Backwards" or "medieval" or "inquisitors" If this was a US-only phenomenon, at least I would feel less troubled, except even in Brazil we had a crazy problem... During the government ranking of high schools (that is made with a test that all high schools students in the country must take if they wish to join university), the first place was a boys-only school. This is a problem, because it drew attention to them, now there are all sorts of discrimination lawsuits from parents of girls, and the media is bellowing how "less worse" they are, because they accept female teachers, and that when they did not accepted them they were evil, and now that they do they are less evil, but that this would be only a truly good school when they start accepting girls and change some of their authoritarian ways and become more tolerating and egalitarian. Or some issue with bars... Female only bars in Brazil are allowed and seen as a female fun thing. Male only bars get the cops quickly called on them for refusing entry of costumer based on gender. (Female-only are illegal too, but cops ignore it). Or one even crazier, it is common to employers to want to hire one gender or other (for example they might want a woman to be the maintenance person of the women's bathroom), yet although signs of "hiring female x" don't attract problems, if you put a sign like "hiring male bathroom cleaner" you get quickly sued for hiring discrimination (that is illegal). I even had a business owner once complain that a woman sued him (and almost won... a judge chance that allowed he win the case) for not hiring her as attendant in a store for male intimate clothing... The first judge saw it purely in the light of law: you cannot discriminate, period. the second judge had more common sense on his head and imaginated that it would bring even more legal problems to have a woman hanging around men that might want to become naked (or almost naked depending on store policy regarding trying intimate clothes) to choose his new clothes...
jiggy2011 14y ago
How does this even work? I assume it's a database that you search by name and location but then there's going to be all kinds of collisions. Or does it pull data from social networks? I imagine the signal to noise ratio will just be horrible, bitter ex girlfriends will just spam guys with negative tags even if they aren't true and it's information will just lose all value.
- danielweber 14y ago
  You are assuming that data fidelity is high on their list of priorities.
- bit_ninja 14y ago
  It seems you must login with Facebook, which I assume allows for picking of very specific people. I would expect it to be a lot of negatives, because people usually don't (seem to) gossip as much about positives.
  - jiggy2011 14y ago
    So does that mean you can only rate people who are also on facebook? Another excellent reason to avoid using FB then I guess..
junto 14y ago
So is there an app for men on women or a gay or bi?
JPKab 14y ago
They should call it Shrew-lu.
wpietri 14y ago
It'd be interesting to see a review of Lulu that didn't seem to be mainly made of "dude with baseball cap, suddenly concerned that he might be called to account". To me, the emotional heart of this piece of writing is his concern with "men kowtowing". I looked at his other articles and his personal site, and I didn't see anything where his writing was half this passionate. And certainly nothing where he'd expressed concern for sexism. I suspect if I looked into Lulu I'd also not like it. But this article is so full of the author that I really can't see the subject.
- jimzvz 14y ago
  Wow
- jrajav 14y ago
  Um.... So because the author doesn't normally soapbox about this hot-button issue but felt unusually compelled to call this instance out, you're less inclined to take him seriously? Never mind that either side of that is the worst kind of ad hominem.
  - wpietri 14y ago
    Exactly. Because that, along with the article itself, suggests that the unusual compulsion is not a strong opposition to sexism. Ad hominem concerns apply to rational arguments. This piece is not cool, rational discourse. It's a highly emotional piece, written to incite emotion. Inquiring about the source and nature of the emotion that drives it is fair.
    - theorique 14y ago
      He probably didn't notice sexism until it became personal. Why is that wrong? Most people become activists when something personally gets in their face, rather than through some abstract idea of "justice".
      - wpietri 14y ago
        It's not wrong as such. It's just shallow. Hopefully it's the beginning for him of understanding sexism more deeply. I do think it's wrong for a writer, though. If you're going to set yourself up as writing an article about a topic, I think you should actually know something about the topic. This would have been a better piece if he'd made it more explicitly about his own feelings all the way through, rather than trying to make it about bigger things.
trin_ 14y ago
Besides the sexist nature of the app (imagine the outcry if it would be an app to rate girls... "sexist startup guys treating women like netflix movies") what the hell is their business model? they collected 2.5 million for a free app, without a business model and a VERY questionable legal standing (if not in the us almost anywhere else in the world)
- brazzy 14y ago
  Business model? Is that the thing where you have "revenues" and "profits" that only scare away potential acquirers by being measurable? I don't see why anyone would want such a "business model".
workbench 14y ago
Need someone to hack and leak the user data to build a database of pathetic self absorbed women not worth giving the time of day to let alone building any sort of friendship or god forbid a relationship with.
jshakes 14y ago
As a guy, I couldn't care less that these kinds of things exist. This app will be used exclusively by a superficial audience who I would have absolutely no interest in meeting. If anything, I'd quite like to end up on this with extremely negative reviews just so the horrible people using this will stay the fuck away from me.
- jiggy2011 14y ago
  Imagine you were going to go out on a date with a new woman and you knew there was a "review" of her online that you could download for free in 10 seconds. Would you not be tempted to at least look? I mean you know it's just superficial crap, but you might have a look; just for laughs of course.. Or you meet a new girl out somewhere and get her phone number, then your buddy comes to you and says "haha, dude that chick you met.. says here she gives a terrible blowjob! LOL!" I mean, you'd like to think that stuff wouldn't colour your judgement at all..
  - Nursie 14y ago
    No, not really, why in the hell would I want to know what other people think about her? They obviously didn't get on perfectly because they're not still dating - QED. And if my 'buddy' said that he'd get a polite "fuck off".
- Camillo 14y ago
  But then those people will talk to their friends, and so on. And, contrary to what you might think, there's plenty of highly educated women who are sufficiently steeped in feminism (due to the process of acquiring that higher education) to see this as perfectly fair payback for patriarchy's many evils, and to use it without regret. So you end up targeting a thin sliver of possible women: not too superficial, but not too educated, and with no friends in either of those categories. Good luck with your dating.
  - lcfg 14y ago
    >there's plenty of highly educated women who are sufficiently steeped in feminism (due to the process of acquiring that higher education) to see this as perfectly fair payback for patriarchy's many evils, and to use it without regret. Your implicit attack on morals derived from feminism reveals a failure to understand feminism and its ideals and effects. Furthermore, demonizing "plenty of highly educated women" as eye-for-an-eye combatants seeking revenge for patriarchy isn't just silly, it's offensive.
chime 14y ago
Wow, it's like everything that I used to fear about the dating world put into one shiny app. Had this been out years ago when I was single, it would've definitely given me a lot of anxiety. Having been happily married for 5 years, all I can say to single folks is that if someone actively rates people on apps/sites like this, they are most likely not the kind of people you want to be with in the long run. As for the startup/app itself, it's the natural evolution of taking HotOrNot ratings + OKCupid profiles + Fuckedcompany gossip and building it into a neat package. There is certainly a demand for apps like this in the market but if you're a user, try to be nice even if you don't like someone. People can become really mean when anonymous.
- drharris 14y ago
  Indeed. This would become the first question I asked a woman when trying to date. If she's childish enough to use something like this, I'd have no problem saying sayonara. There should be some expectation of maturity and general couth in any relationship.
  - paranoiacblack 14y ago
    Indeed. If you decide to stop dating someone because of an application on their phone, you are the mature one and they are the child.
    - john_b 14y ago
      His point was that it's indicative of a childish and immature mentality, which is a judgment of a person, not a judgement of their phone.
    - drharris 14y ago
      Yes, it does. I have standards for the people I choose to involve myself with. In a similar vein, I would likely not even befriend anyone that uses it, or anyone that supports this type of application (either directed towards men or women). A big part of maturity is having personal integrity in all dealings. This means, for me, an automatic rejection of anyone who would use something like this. Similarly, I do not befriend constant gossips or complainers, and call my friends out when they do it. Certain people are a waste of relationship effort.
ndeyx 14y ago
Take a look here : http://m.luludude.com/ http://m.luludude.com/
- edwardunknown 14y ago
  What is that? It wants a Facebook.
  - ndeyx 14y ago
    I don't have Facebook account myself, but it's related to Lulu app and onlulu (according to the faq). Apparently, guys can see what girls say about them.
    - kybernetyk 14y ago
      So you sign in with your FB account, they pull in your data and put it into their app db so ladies can find you easier? Very ... smart. /edit: Oh, their privacy disclaimer states that they will also pull your friends' data into their DB.
      - ndeyx 14y ago
        I don't think the main goal is to help people. Lulu get personal datas from girls (mobile app, onlulu) and from guys (luludude) with this system and probably make money with it. Helping ladies and guys is a "secondary" activity.
- philipbjorge 14y ago
  From onlulu.com's FAQ: "Lulu Dude is a separate app we created for the boys because we do not let them into the original Lulu. Guys don’t see what the girls see. We let them select their relationship status and profile picture and we encourage them to get their “fan base” to review them. Lulu Dude is also a place for guys to get self-improvement tips. Think of Lulu Dude as Cosmo for guys."
saosebastiao 14y ago
Interesting to see a startup with a business model that is entirely based in toeing the line of libel. I wouldn't bet on its sustainability...but certainly interesting to watch nonetheless.
joshuaheard 14y ago
I don't know if the link was about the app or the ridiculous "left" and "right" buttons that completely interfered with my reading the article.
peterkelly 14y ago
I used to be unhappy about this app until I found an SQL injection vulnerability that allowed me to log in and access the accounts of my previous dates by only needing to know their email addresses. This meant I was able to manipulate the ratings and comments people had made about me. Now I like the app :) Thanks Lulu!
- shanelja 14y ago
  Be careful with your trivial SQL injection, if the US police find out, that's 60 years behind bars, no access to a computer and daily "fun" in the shower.
  - hyperbovine 14y ago
    But, no sexist gossip.
    - esquilax 14y ago
      You're not thinking like an entrepreneur. That just means that prison rape victims are an untapped* market. *badoom, pish!
      - 3825 14y ago
        I find it absolutely despicable to make light of violent abuse, including sexual abuse, in prison. We should be doing all we can to make our prisons safer for everyone. The fact that many people think it is OK to make and laugh at prison rape jokes sickens me. What would you think if I made rape jokes about your 90 year old grandma? Or your ten year old son? Or your wife? If that is not ok, neither is prison rape of adult men. I am appalled to realize many people think prison rape is part and parcel of the "prison experience". Should rape be used as a deterrent to unwanted behavior? Where do we stop? Will you be ok with teachers turning a blind eye on students raping other students in detention for not doing their homework or for misbehaving in the classroom? Answer me.
        14y ago
iand 14y ago
It sounds like something that's going to divide people on the moral compass but in the end you don't need to ask someone's permission before you can have an opinion of them and share it with other people.
- praptak 14y ago
  Technology changes the scale, though. Gossiping with your friend about your ex is different from sharing your opinion of said ex with thousands of people.
pathy 14y ago
How on earth could this app get funding? If it were a male->female app there would have been an outrage about it. Moral issues aside, I can see a lot of libel lawsuits (at least in the UK) springing up because of this app. There are enough rumours in the world as it is, we do not need apps that profit from people rating the opposite sex and spreading rumours about them.
- skrebbel 14y ago
  > How on earth could this app get funding? You sound like you expect investors to somehow be more guided by ethics than other people. Ever consider that it might be the other way around?
- Kliment 14y ago
  outrage = interets = traction = eyeballs, basically
- theorique 14y ago
  How on earth could this app get funding? The investors expect it to make more money than they put in.
btipling 14y ago
The connected nature of the internet and mobile devices reduces the cost of disseminating information. It doesn't discriminate about what information is made easier to share. Expecting app stores to play gate keepers sets a dangerous precedent. Imagine if the internet was an AOL app store and Steve Case had the final opinion on everything that would be made available to their users. You just have to roll with the punches and adjust. It's fine to be appalled at stuff like this, it goes over the top whenever you want someone to have authority to bring a stop to it for you. Adjusting your expectations and dealing with your objections are a better option than giving someone you can't really trust such long lasting power just to temporarily please your ego. In two days you're going to forget about this app, but then you'll probably have found something else on HN to be outraged about. Maybe it will be the app store gate keeper shutting down an app you liked.
jeffcutsinger 14y ago
I can't wait to see this buried beneath older stories with fewer points and comments, the way every story on sexism gets buried here. Oh wait this is about how awful women are to men. Never mind.
- drharris 14y ago
  What are you talking about? I see at least a few stories per week on sexism in the top 10. Given that this place is more technology/startup-related than "let's talk about society", that's a pretty good frequency for just one of many valid social causes.
  - jeffcutsinger 14y ago
    Next time you see a story about sexism against women (redundant but needs the clarification here anyway), watch its movement. Yeah, it may get up in the top for a bit, but you can watch stories that are older with fewer points and comments move up above it. Happens every time.
    - drharris 14y ago
      I've seen this effect in other "heated" discussions, and I wonder if it's the effect of moderation. Primarily, what happens to a thread as the percentage of moderated messages increases? Is that metric involved in the positioning? I could see a topic like sexism (or emacs v. vi) getting an inordinate amount of moderation, and thus might be flagged more often, moving it down the list. Maybe that has nothing to do with it, but I've seen this effect before.
- acheron 14y ago
  Are... are you serious? Or is it just trolling? I'm not an obsessive HN reader but I see sexism stories show up at the top of the HN list all the time. To the point that I've taken it as one of the odd HN cultural quirks, that you all like to discuss it obsessively. Claiming they get "buried" is contrary to all evidence I've seen, though I guess if you have statistics I'm willing to be proven wrong.
- 14y ago
klrr 14y ago
This is bad.
S4M 14y ago
I don't see how it would prevent a man to create the fake account of a woman and post advantageous stuff about him (like the mentioned "big feet").
Irregardless 14y ago
Who cares? Would you want to date a girl who uses a gossip app anyway? No. Hell no. If this helps steer the superficial airheads in another direction, I'd only have one thing to say to Chong: "Thanks!" Saves us the trouble of finding out the hard way, at least.
- loceng 14y ago
  What about a girl who is acquaintances with a gossip girl who uses the app and searches for guy's they're dating, and lets them know about whatever is mentioned on there?
  - jhull 14y ago
    I don't get why everyone is so paranoid about this. What are people trying to hide?
    - loceng 14y ago
      It has nothing about hiding anything, it has to do with people lying or telling "half-truths" (being dishonest) / stories skewed by anger, etc.. Many people are very sensitive and influenced people are by small / short stories whether they are even slightly negative or positive in nature.
    - john_b 14y ago
      Among many other good reasons, it's an app whose nature is determined by the same kind of dynamics that govern many restaurant and product reviews. Most of the time, satisfied customers don't bother to review the product or service because a certain psychological barrier first needs to be overcome (i.e. "writing this review is worth my time because it's SO good/bad"). Middle-of-the-road reviews rarely make it through, and when they do, they are typically short and uninsightful. Reviews that draw the most attention are those at the extremes. Human beings are generally more prone to extreme dissatisfaction than extreme satisfaction. It's in our nature. When is the last time you thought, "Man, that person drives SO well!" or "My bill is SO low this month!"? In the case of Lulu, the comments will heavily skew to the negative since "satisfied customers" will likely still be dating the guy (and thus not posting reviews) and dissatisfied ones will have every incentive to write vindictive comments in a last attempt to "get even". And those who are initially angry with the guy but later change their minds are likely to write a review during the angry phase and forget about it later, when their opinion of him has moderated. The end result is that most of the guys on the site will be portrayed in a much more negative light than is actually merited. In terms of its user base, it's really just catering to the female equivalent of guys who engage in "slut shaming". But it's more socially acceptable because the app targets men instead of women, and men are expected to be more psychologically durable.
neya 14y ago
Where are all the feminists now? This is the perfect example of double-standards implied by women. Imagine an alternative scenario where men could rate their female counterparts on the basis of their 'assets' as defined by some vague methodology. Imagine how much fire under men would be, with ALL men being broadly labelled as sexists because this app was targeted at men. I am seriously asking - Where are all the feminists now? And their blind-folded feminism?? Especially the ones who know this app..
- jimzvz 14y ago
  >I am seriously asking - Where are all the feminists now? Especially the ones who know this app.. Don't worry, they are certainly ready with the argument that it is the "patriarchy" that makes this app acceptable but not the reverse.
  - duaneb 14y ago
    Most (all?) women I know who identify as feminist activists would not support this app, and I highly doubt anyone who would is really a feminist. This is equally harmful to women.
  - cheez 14y ago
    I thought this was amazing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvYyGTmcP80 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvYyGTmcP80 "A woman is rude and abusive? PATRIRACHY!"
  - Steuard 14y ago
    As I said to the previous poster, if you have a shred of evidence that "the feminists" consider this app to be acceptable (not just "less bad"), you should share it now. If you don't, then you might want to pause for a few minutes and seriously ask yourself why you said what you did. Because from my experience, opposing a service like this is a core value of feminism. (It may not be seen as a top priority, but that's a radically different statement.)
    - jimzvz 14y ago
ixacto 14y ago
This app is disturbing. It also wants storage, location, network, contacts, phone call permissions hence I highly doubt it is as private as its creators portray it as.
squozzer 14y ago
The real tragedy is that it will drive mate selection further towards those qualities that are most fleeting -- looks and wealth. I will now indulge myself with a chuckle as I think of all those women who will wake up one day years into the future and realize that #Big.Feet = #Cheater and #FatBankroll = #AlwaysAwayOnBusiness.
- theorique 14y ago
  Looks decline for women, but men start to look "distinguished". It depends a LOT on what the opposite sexes look for in a partner - men want something young and pretty to impress their friends and not say something too stupid, women want a dominant man who pays for stuff and makes decisions.
manuscreationis 14y ago
Millennia of imbalance towards men having the upper hand in just about all societies is a plain fact. However, progress and equality is not the reversal of an imbalance - it's the leveling of a playing field and accepting that to achieve real meaningful change, the notion of retribution must be taken off the table. Either it's ok for both genders to have a service like this, or it is not ok for either gender to have a service like this. End of story. Personally I'd find any site like this reprehensible for either gender (or any other biologically or socially discernable metric, for that matter).
lifeisstillgood 14y ago
Meh, whatever. It seems like a lot of social media - an online, permanent record of an evening in the bar. I get the impression that this is a "terrible thing" because it will actively hinder the dating chances of some people without redress or knowledge. (Which is exactly like an evening in the bar) Like privacy, our reputations are taking a digital battering. But just as people watch reality tv and boo at the evil ones, they also learn that they are booing five minutes edited conversation from 24 hours of life - lulu will carry on and so will gossip and bitchiness, but we will learn to adjust to the new levels of transparency - it may be a rough time, but it will happen. Nb I you can use SQL injection to get a hot date, and don't live up to the injected criteria, trust me, that story will not need lulu to spread
andyhmltn 14y ago
I thought they were talking about the self publishing company at first...
cupofjoakim 14y ago
Oddly, I don't mind this. I'd like a version for guys as well though, mostly to see the rage that would come up from the extreme feminists.
- lcfg 14y ago
  What kind of "extreme feminists" are you talking about, and why would you be glad to "see the rage"? It sounds like you'd like to verify your opinion on feminism by considering the arguments of a fringe minority.
S_A_P 14y ago
This is good. I wouldn't care to date or even consider someone who would resort to such shallow methods to figure out if I was "worth it". That is, assuming something negative about me would be said. I can't really see how this would be anything but negative towards the men. He would be an ex for a reason. Jgrahamc said it well- if you are using this app, you deserve who you get.
cyanbane 14y ago
I think some women are going to love this.... until someone builds the site that sits on the other side of the coin.
- sabat 14y ago
  Yeah, can you imagine? The moment women start getting tagged with things like #DoesntPutOut and #Bitchy, I suspect the conversation would be entirely different.
- Nursie 14y ago
  You could just build a database of Lulu users which would serve the same purpose!
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
Steuard 14y ago
I have two reactions to this, and I think most people who care about sexism in our society would agree with both: 1. From the sound of it, this is a horribly sexist product that dehumanizes men and reinforces traditional gender roles. I hope to one day see a world where an app like this couldn't exist because there would be no demand (and because everyone would be disgusted by the basic concept). 2. Actively opposing this product is a lower priority than many other issues in our society. While this app does harm the men it targets, that harm occurs against a social backdrop that does not in general emphasize treating men this way. (That is, such attitudes exist, but they are rarely the primary lens through which men are viewed.) In contrast, a similar app targeting women would reinforce negative social norms that are often the primary way in which women are viewed. (Consider how often articles about women in politics comment on their appearance and clothing choices, as compared to how often articles about men do so.) In short, every feminist that I know would be unhappy about this system, but there's no hypocrisy in those same people being less upset about it than about similar treatment of women. Yes, both men and women suffer unfair treatment because of how our society deals with gender. But women have much farther to go.
- obviouslygreen 14y ago
  ...but there's no hypocrisy in those same people being less upset about it than about similar treatment of women. You clearly believe this, but that's what it is, your belief. I disagree; women may have "much farther to go," but that doesn't mean this is somehow intrinsically less important to people who really do support equality. There is nothing wrong with establishing your own priorities. Calling this a lower one with the justification that you are more concerned about women's issues, instead of issues of sexual equality as a whole, would have been more honest. Less benevolent, but then nobody's perfect: Better to be clearly flawed, like the rest of us, than to fabricate some sort of intrinsic dominance where a true egalitarian would find none.
  - Steuard 14y ago
    I may be misunderstanding you here, so I'd appreciate a bit of clarification. The way I'm reading your argument, it sounds to me like your claim is something like, "Context doesn't matter: similar forms of harm necessarily carry similar moral weight." Thus, this app is intrinsically just as serious of an issue as a similar app rating women would be. But that reasoning doesn't make any sense to me. I don't see how you couldn't apply the same argument to say "Regardless of context, it's always equally bad to violently shove someone," ignoring the difference between shoving someone standing on flat ground and shoving someone standing at the edge of a cliff. Of course I would be more upset about shoving in some contexts than in others. So my claim is that the same reasoning applies here. This app absolutely does harm men, but the position of men in society is such that the resulting harm is fairly contained: this service is notable precisely because it's unusual. On the other hand, a similar app for rating women would be yet another contribution to a vast complex of social attitudes and institutions that combine to have a powerful oppressive effect. My sense is that network effects would reinforce and magnify the harm that such an app would do to women. So yes, when evaluating my desire for sexual equality as a whole, I find myself more pressingly concerned about women's issues. But from my perspective, that's not an arbitrary preference but a rational choice.
kybernetyk 14y ago
At first I was: Well, that is sexist. But then I was: I just need a few fake reviews ...
- Ygg2 14y ago
  And you get idiot airheads as your partner? My only thought allow for a others to check if someone uses Lulu or not. That's a great filter, right there.
myth 14y ago
If there ever were a service deserving of an indefinite DDOS, this would be it.
- rada 14y ago
  There was. It was called Facemash and is now Facebook.
darxius 14y ago
I'm amazed at the kinds of apps which exist and get exposure. This is stuff which might have been fun in high school, but there are actual adults using this. Not to mention the insane double standard. I'd love to see a man make a similar app for rating women this way. I'm sure there would be news reports and tons of angry feminists flooding the airwaves.
- quesera 14y ago
  The older I get, the more I realize that a large percentage of the population never actually graduates from high school.
- ohkine 14y ago
  Try being a woman on the Internet — anywhere on the Internet, not this one idiot site — and then talk about insane double-standards. When every other online interaction involves at least a few men commenting on your fuckability or how much of a 'bitch' you are, or going digging through all of your previous posts or even tracking down your Facebook account so that they can publicly share your body with all of the other men reading, and you have no recourse lest you be labelled an 'angry feminist', you will find that one single Web site where women treat men in a similar fashion does not inspire the same level of passion that it is doing here. It is a terrible Web site, obviously, but i am envious of the social position that leads to such a complete lack of irony and self-reflection as seen in these comments.
  - darxius 14y ago
    The fact that other double standards exist in other parts of the internet isn't what I was debating. I won't argue with you that there is an inherit double standard among both sexes, but seeing as this thread is about the website in question -- that's the one I was addressing. Also, in no way should double standards and sexism lead to more double standards and sexism.
    - ohkine 14y ago
      If you had simply decried the site's 'sexism' i would not have taken issue with your post. What you'd said was that it was an 'insane double standard'. The definition of a double-standard is 'the application of different sets of principles for similar situations, or two different people in the same situation'. Your use of the term 'insane double standard' (not to mention the other comments here using similar language) therefore suggests that the existence of one single Web site dedicated to women objectifying men is a 'similar situation' to living every single day in a culture where only the OPPOSITE is actually a real problem. And as much as i can identify with the distaste over this Web site, i find that that implication is laughable and the emotional outrage over it is therefore severely misplaced.
VexXtreme 14y ago
I bet it's just a matter of time before they piss off the wrong person, get hacked or DDoSed out of existence. And I sincerely hope that the bitch who owns the company never succeeds at another product again.
- quesera 14y ago
  Too much vitriol. Playing to the base instincts of the hoi polloi is rarely a bad business strategy. But it is self-debasing. She should grow up. So should you. Interesting: "hoi polloi" autocorrects to "hot pollo". And now I'm hungry.
- rada 14y ago
  Kind of like when Mark Zuckerberg made Facemash to rank female undergrads, and then never succeeded at anything after that?
paduc 14y ago
This app would be illegal in France. It's illegal to have a database of people without letting these people see, modify and destroy their profiles. Doesn't any such law exist in the US?
guelo 14y ago
Weird that /r/MensRights made it to the front page this morning.
tomasien 14y ago
Some good points made, but in this instance I think voice and perspective matter, and I'd greatly prefer to see a piece like this written by a woman. A man's voice just does nothing for me in this instance. We could have the "words vs. words+voice" debate, but let's just skip it because voice matters.
danpalmer 14y ago
They have the ability to remove a Facebook account from their system permanently. Email them asking to be removed and they will add you to the blocked list so that no one can rate/review you and you do not appear on the network in any way.
fab13n 14y ago
How do they prevent men from creating fake female accounts and see what's told about them? Do they take steps to anonymize the evaluators? Even if they do, timing the changes in the evaluations will allow to guess who said what, except for the most frantic womanizers. I can foresee a Lulu user being busted, bad things happening to her, and Lulu being sued. Finally, for those who talk about DDoSing the site: it's smarter and funnier to build a Lulu whistleblowing bot, which makes stuff more public than intended.
mgkimsal 14y ago
Wow - Blair Warner was doing this 25 years ago! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=toeIzZZxEkw http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=toeIzZZxEkw The more things change....
CopyrightX 14y ago
"Lulu’s Term of Service disingenuously shifts the responsibility of notifying men of their unwitting participation to Lulu's users, which I’m inclined to believe has never happened." WHAT?! You mean the Lulu app users might not be strictly adhering to the site's Terms of Service?! Well, notify the FBI about that! There's a law created in 1984 https://www.eff.org/issues/cfaa https://www.eff.org/issues/cfaa for JUST such criminals as these, and it makes the users guilty of committing a felony offense (a perfectly reasonable use of the law in this case)! Never mind the EFF's Week-Of-Action for reforming the CFAA this week https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/04/help-us-remember-aaron-swartz-participating-our-week-action-demanding-congress https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/04/help-us-remember-aaron... . Lulu's users are clearly a threat to society and deserve felony convictions for their awful behavior here.
DanBC 14y ago
The MRAs are out in force.
hnriot 14y ago
Does anyone really care? Maybe the young insecure men who have grown up with hash tags and their online persona having some kind of meaning. But anyone with an ounce of confidence wouldn't care less. Women have always gossiped and always will. It's not about the men, it's a way for women to bond over common experiences and shared empathy.
untog 14y ago
Wait, Hacker News is OK talking about gender now? Because I thought that stuff got flagged because it wasn't "relevant"- evidently the community has had quite the change of heart recently. Either that, or it's OK because it's about men and not women. One of the two.
- peterwwillis 14y ago
  Are you new here? Every time there's a story in any way relating to sexism, the community jumps on it like it's somehow a worthwhile conversation, when really everyone just wants to put their two cents in. Like me for example.
  - untog 14y ago
    They really don't, though. A number of people jump on, then the thread gets flagged to death. Only when it's about women, though: http://tumbling.alastair.is/post/42050321362/why-are-posts-about-the-geeklist-controversy-being http://tumbling.alastair.is/post/42050321362/why-are-posts-a...
    - peterwwillis 14y ago
      Women are more often the victims, hence more stories about them, hence more discussion. I haven't seen a story yet about a guy who was a victim of sexism in this industry, but I also can't say the stories don't exist just because I haven't seen them. What I have seen is public acknowledgement from pg that they delete stories that get voted up just because they feel like it. So the community doesn't necessarily get a say.
    - jules 14y ago
      There have been many more stories about sexism targeted at females than the reverse.
crux_ 14y ago
The comments here are absolutely disgusting. Sure, this service is shallow, and absolutely disrespectful of privacy, etc... But the amount of faux outrage you're all whipping yourselves into a froth over is really over the top. So much hate and resentment. :( Oh, and those of you claiming there would be some sort of anti-man frenzy if there was a site targeting similar gossip by men? It's been done. No outrage. The most prominent example? Facebook.
- sabat 14y ago
  A scan of the comments, all reasonable commentary, tells me that you're likely a troll.
- mnicole 14y ago
  With all the commentary here you'd think all feminists are the kind that want to "overthrow" men and it's women's fault a company primarily consisting of men were funded, and have developed and marketed this app. There are far creepier and more intrusive apps and services out there. Instead of blindly blaming feminists (without actually understanding what most feminists actually stand for) for them being on the marketplace, blame the developers and encourage the ecosystems they're a part of to stop allowing apps whose primary intentions are to shame or label unknowing persons. Your rage is Streisand-effecting this thing and propelling it further than it would have gone otherwise. What were the totals in those gender polls yesterday? The current numbers are sitting at Male - 1201 / Female - 72 / Other - 30. And it shows (particularly because a lot of women specifically signed up yesterday just to participate in it and will probably go back to lurking for good reason). I think many forget this place is actually less diverse than Reddit in demographics, frequented mostly by the 18-24 male, we just pretend that there's higher expectations in how one speaks and treats the upvote/downvote system even though that seemingly goes out the window when discussing topics like these, where opposing viewpoints are downvoted as quickly as they're posted and the women-blaming posts are upvoted. When we have threads about revenge-porn sites, where are these same angry posters? Instead we get slut-shaming in the form of, "Well maybe you shouldn't be sending those types of photos if you don't want them to end up in the wrong hands." They act as though photos of naked males are passed around as quickly and have the same effect on the victim as they do females. Do you remember the threads about /r/creepshots and how many here were defending the right to post these photos even if they contained personally-identifying information (location, scars, tattoos, etc.) because "freedom of speech" and "let Reddit be Reddit" and the always rational "well she was in public so she doesn't have any say in who can take a picture of her, regardless of how depraved it is". But oh no, some woman on some app nobody is going to use is going to call me a creep and it's going to ruin my life - the privilege! The idea that "I don't experience privilege and I know this because I am not to blame for anything that happened before my existence," is trying to argue a point that only extremist feminists are making; no one's blaming the current crop of men for past problems that exist today (not most of them, anyway). That doesn't negate the fact that these values and expectations have already permeated through our society and are affecting everyone in ways many do not notice in their day-to-day. It's a shame that this was the first post I am commenting on today, after seeing the existing dialogue here and the sibling comment to my post (albeit [dead]), I'm sure there will be some fun responses. But I needed to get things done today anyway. TL;DR We have things to work on on both sides, but blaming women for a product not even created by women is really unnecessary and unproductive, particularly when similar apps for men are already on the market and have been linked in this thread.
deleted 14y ago
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charlieok 14y ago
Hmm, now I kinda want to use the app to see if/when anything gets posted about me. But I don't want to help this become more of a thing. And I sure as hell don't want to give it access to my Facebook account. Edit: saw the “no boys allowed” clause. Great. So I guess using it would require a fake Facebook account?
nemik 14y ago
This is fantastic. Any girl who uses something like this is someone to stay away from anyway and now it just gets easier. Keep up the good work.
marvin 14y ago
I am so happy that I'm steering well clear of mainstream dating these days. This is the worst of mainstream dating culture, distilled and ready to use. If nothing else, you could make awareness/usage of this app a dealbreaker and use it as a filter for girls you would definitely not want as a partner.
networked 14y ago
If you're a single straight guy who has any kind of web following and you fear Lulu will be detrimental to your dating you can probably apply the following counter-strategy: ask your followers to register fake Lulu accounts and give you bizarre, negative reviews. Once the number and the severity and absurdity of the reviews cross a certain threshold it will be clear that those are not all to be taken seriously. This will drown out any real negative reviews of you with noise and, should many people start doing it, bring the overall credibility of the site down. Disclaimer: I'm not advocating that you do so.
keammo1 14y ago
How much outrage is there over The Playbook app, which lets men share and rate pictures of their "romantic encounters"? Seemingly less than there is over LuLu, unless I missed it. http://theplaybookapp.com/ http://theplaybookapp.com/
- Nursie 14y ago
  IIRC that hit HN a few months to a year ago. Everyone said it was slimy and disgusting and that the creators should feel bad for being assholes. So there's that. --edit-- Here is is - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5087859 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5087859 It wasn't as as popular as this topic, and there are one or two "how will you monetise this" posts, but in general it got slammed.
  - danielweber 14y ago
    The free market is good at giving people what they want. But sometimes, people getting what they want is a horrible thing.
maxcan 14y ago
Honestly, I don't think that this is particularly sexist at all. My only issue is the massive double standard in the media and culture that takes a pass on this but would raise hell if someone released the same exact app with the genders reversed.
irishcoffee 14y ago
Am I the only one tempted to make an app called Ulul..?
deleted 14y ago
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onemorepassword 14y ago
Good thing this will never spread far beyond the US. Utterly illegal in most Western countries. It's not even a grey area, laws were written to prevent almost exactly this kind of thing. Surprised they even tried to launch in the UK and had it running without getting sued or prosecuted.
joyeuse6701 14y ago
There were a lot of websites like this (anonymous gossip) when I was in college that would come up, get really popular and then someone would get a lot of flack, be emotionally traumatized, and the universities would petition for a take down. All it will take is one suicide to tear this app down.
- Aco- 14y ago
  oh, is that all it will take? human lives are so cheap today. I suppose we should just count the minutes then.
duncan_bayne 14y ago
This a fantastic idea. We should encourage Lulu to give away free t-shirts, so that men know who to avoid dating :)
jack9 14y ago
If you care about what other people say about your or read and imagine about you (an anonymous person) on a random social app, your life might be juvenile and/or completely devoid of meaning. Adults meeting face to face sum each other up in a matter of moments. Nothing promised or promoted or warned changes that. Someone should tell this guy to grow up.

210 points by triplec1988 14y ago

As a notorious womanizer, this app enrages me. I will have no choice now but to become a caring, sensitive, one-woman man. Damn you Lulu!!!

thebiglebrewski 14y ago

Tried signing up for it with a fake Facebook account with gender set to female, and it did not work. I still think this is really effed up - but honestly was genuinely curious to see what is on this thing! Kind of to see what girls I know that would even use this.

jlebrech 14y ago

isn't lulu a self-publishing service?

Swizec 14y ago
Yes, lulu.com is a print-on-demand service. This seems to be a different Lulu ... I was confused too.
- latterd 14y ago
  FYI onlulu.com
mkr-hn 14y ago
Lulu is a name. Services and products often use generic terms and names.
- salgernon 14y ago
  I think Clan McDonald would probably have a problem starting a chain of restaurants. I was completely confused by this online service (app or not) having the same name as another online service.

jgrahamc 14y ago

I can't help feeling that the people who use such an app to date and rate deserve each other.

jeffreybaird 14y ago
The issue is men don't use the app. I downloaded it on my SO's phone and was able to find most of the college age guys I know on it. None of them knew they were on there.
- mseebach 14y ago
  Have each of them demand a dump of their reviews from the service, as they're entitled to under EU data protection directive. If there's anything libellous in there, try to get a newspaper interested. The Daily Mail is probably a good choice for this mixture of sex and scandal.
- dfxm12 14y ago
  The issue is men don't use the app. I think the issue is men can't use the app.
  - tomjen3 14y ago
    Really. How the hell do they check that the user is a man? Facial recognition?
    - dfxm12 14y ago
      No idea. You have to install the app on your phone, so it can read your phone's accounts. I think a Google account is required on an Android phone. Google accounts have gender in their profile (remember the G+ fiasco?). You also have to link it to Facebook, so it has access to your Facebook data as well. Maybe they don't like new Facebook accounts with zero activity, but certainly there is a usecase for women who want to use this app, but don't want to use Facebook (I would think there is a usecase for women who don't have smartphones as well). Not sure about the iPhone flow. This thought exercise is really making me scared about how much the owners of the apps on my phone know about me!

gngeal 14y ago

Write a polar opposite. Push it through the same channels. If someone has it taken down, cry "sexism!" and demand the same for "Lulu" (an idiotic name, anyway). UPDATE: Or perhaps not. After looking at the web site, it seems that this service, and a bad review of my person, is precisely the thing to repel exactly the kind of women I've never wanted to have anything common with.

GotAnyMegadeth 14y ago
Perhaps it's named after the equally high quality Metallica album
- gngeal 14y ago
  If nothing else, there is already a publishing service with the same name. If I were running it, I'd seriously consider some legal steps. This smells of potential defamation by association. "I've published my book on Lulu.com." "Oh, is that the horrible sexist girl gossip website?" "I didn't know they were running it. I'll tell my friends to stop buying their books from there."
9392732 14y ago
Would it be possible to sign up, scrape all the data then publish it anonymously?
- TazeTSchnitzel 14y ago
  Well, there's an android version. Someone just needs to hack at it with a Java decompiler and find the internal API calls.

pointyhatuk 14y ago

I can't imagine they would get away with this in the EU. One data protection request and subsequent slander case would destroy them in an instant. I find the whole idea objectionable at every level and about as innovative as "rate my poo".

shanelja 14y ago

Lets not act as though this is in anyway revolutionary, people have bitched behind other peoples backs for as long as there have been people. Bitterness, anger and jealousy are unfortunately some of the strongest traits we humans have, especially when it comes to our interactions with one another, this application, while on the surface immoral, is simply providing a means for this to happen online. I don't in anyway agree with this application or the practices it supports and the tags come across as misandric but people will be people, if they don't bitch here it will be on more public venues, such as Facebook or Twitter, at least here I don't have to see the self absorbed whinging simply by virtue of never visiting the app. That aside, I hope the creators provide some means of men removing themselves from the website or there could very soon be some kind of law suit coming there way, regardless of their contrived TOS.

ry0ohki 14y ago
I think there is a difference between people bitching in private, and it being something publicly searchable by people who just met you. One bad date and suddenly you have a reputation that follows you forever? (Assuming people used this app of course)
- shanelja 14y ago
  Oh, definitely, that's why I added the last paragraph. That being said, I would find it a good indicator, if the person you were dating took notice of this drivel, they are probably the kind of person you don't want to be dating anyway. I think the biggest issue is the complete anonymity which is inherently given online, even if it asked for identities, these can easily be faked. What is to stop a jealous co-worker or an annoyed sister, or even a drunk friend from tarnishing your public image online by saying you treat them badly, or even worse, raped them, over an application like this?
  - visarga 14y ago
    Or another man. Men could use this to slander their competition.
14y ago

dash2 14y ago

I think it's hilarious and a brilliant idea. Everyone knows that dating is a lemons market, what's wrong with trying to fix it? And presumably you can rate things how you want... so if people want to put #Big.Feet or #AlwaysPays, that's their choice.

shanelja 14y ago
That you felt the need to make a new account simply to post this comment shows that you don't fully agree with your own point of view.
- Flimm 14y ago
  No, it doesn't. Social shame does not imply lack of conviction or misinformation.

antr 14y ago

In recent times I've gotten the impression that their is a double standard going on regarding certain (not all) services and events that are only targeted to women. If this had been an app for men rating and alerting them about certain women all hell would of broke loose.

speeder 14y ago
There are a couple of schools around the world targeted at men, or women... One very interesting thing, is that schools targeted at women are seem as "traditional" and "bastions" or "empowering", specially if they are ancient and do have good education... Men schools, once regarded in the same way, are now being attacked, one of the best schools in the US for example is being sued for not taking female students, and a common tag attached to them is "Backwards" or "medieval" or "inquisitors" If this was a US-only phenomenon, at least I would feel less troubled, except even in Brazil we had a crazy problem... During the government ranking of high schools (that is made with a test that all high schools students in the country must take if they wish to join university), the first place was a boys-only school. This is a problem, because it drew attention to them, now there are all sorts of discrimination lawsuits from parents of girls, and the media is bellowing how "less worse" they are, because they accept female teachers, and that when they did not accepted them they were evil, and now that they do they are less evil, but that this would be only a truly good school when they start accepting girls and change some of their authoritarian ways and become more tolerating and egalitarian. Or some issue with bars... Female only bars in Brazil are allowed and seen as a female fun thing. Male only bars get the cops quickly called on them for refusing entry of costumer based on gender. (Female-only are illegal too, but cops ignore it). Or one even crazier, it is common to employers to want to hire one gender or other (for example they might want a woman to be the maintenance person of the women's bathroom), yet although signs of "hiring female x" don't attract problems, if you put a sign like "hiring male bathroom cleaner" you get quickly sued for hiring discrimination (that is illegal). I even had a business owner once complain that a woman sued him (and almost won... a judge chance that allowed he win the case) for not hiring her as attendant in a store for male intimate clothing... The first judge saw it purely in the light of law: you cannot discriminate, period. the second judge had more common sense on his head and imaginated that it would bring even more legal problems to have a woman hanging around men that might want to become naked (or almost naked depending on store policy regarding trying intimate clothes) to choose his new clothes...

jiggy2011 14y ago

How does this even work? I assume it's a database that you search by name and location but then there's going to be all kinds of collisions. Or does it pull data from social networks? I imagine the signal to noise ratio will just be horrible, bitter ex girlfriends will just spam guys with negative tags even if they aren't true and it's information will just lose all value.

danielweber 14y ago
You are assuming that data fidelity is high on their list of priorities.
bit_ninja 14y ago
It seems you must login with Facebook, which I assume allows for picking of very specific people. I would expect it to be a lot of negatives, because people usually don't (seem to) gossip as much about positives.
- jiggy2011 14y ago
  So does that mean you can only rate people who are also on facebook? Another excellent reason to avoid using FB then I guess..

junto 14y ago

So is there an app for men on women or a gay or bi?

JPKab 14y ago

They should call it Shrew-lu.

wpietri 14y ago

It'd be interesting to see a review of Lulu that didn't seem to be mainly made of "dude with baseball cap, suddenly concerned that he might be called to account". To me, the emotional heart of this piece of writing is his concern with "men kowtowing". I looked at his other articles and his personal site, and I didn't see anything where his writing was half this passionate. And certainly nothing where he'd expressed concern for sexism. I suspect if I looked into Lulu I'd also not like it. But this article is so full of the author that I really can't see the subject.

jimzvz 14y ago
Wow
jrajav 14y ago
Um.... So because the author doesn't normally soapbox about this hot-button issue but felt unusually compelled to call this instance out, you're less inclined to take him seriously? Never mind that either side of that is the worst kind of ad hominem.
- wpietri 14y ago
  Exactly. Because that, along with the article itself, suggests that the unusual compulsion is not a strong opposition to sexism. Ad hominem concerns apply to rational arguments. This piece is not cool, rational discourse. It's a highly emotional piece, written to incite emotion. Inquiring about the source and nature of the emotion that drives it is fair.
  - theorique 14y ago
    He probably didn't notice sexism until it became personal. Why is that wrong? Most people become activists when something personally gets in their face, rather than through some abstract idea of "justice".
    - wpietri 14y ago
      It's not wrong as such. It's just shallow. Hopefully it's the beginning for him of understanding sexism more deeply. I do think it's wrong for a writer, though. If you're going to set yourself up as writing an article about a topic, I think you should actually know something about the topic. This would have been a better piece if he'd made it more explicitly about his own feelings all the way through, rather than trying to make it about bigger things.

trin_ 14y ago

Besides the sexist nature of the app (imagine the outcry if it would be an app to rate girls... "sexist startup guys treating women like netflix movies") what the hell is their business model? they collected 2.5 million for a free app, without a business model and a VERY questionable legal standing (if not in the us almost anywhere else in the world)

brazzy 14y ago
Business model? Is that the thing where you have "revenues" and "profits" that only scare away potential acquirers by being measurable? I don't see why anyone would want such a "business model".

workbench 14y ago

Need someone to hack and leak the user data to build a database of pathetic self absorbed women not worth giving the time of day to let alone building any sort of friendship or god forbid a relationship with.

jshakes 14y ago

As a guy, I couldn't care less that these kinds of things exist. This app will be used exclusively by a superficial audience who I would have absolutely no interest in meeting. If anything, I'd quite like to end up on this with extremely negative reviews just so the horrible people using this will stay the fuck away from me.

jiggy2011 14y ago
Imagine you were going to go out on a date with a new woman and you knew there was a "review" of her online that you could download for free in 10 seconds. Would you not be tempted to at least look? I mean you know it's just superficial crap, but you might have a look; just for laughs of course.. Or you meet a new girl out somewhere and get her phone number, then your buddy comes to you and says "haha, dude that chick you met.. says here she gives a terrible blowjob! LOL!" I mean, you'd like to think that stuff wouldn't colour your judgement at all..
- Nursie 14y ago
  No, not really, why in the hell would I want to know what other people think about her? They obviously didn't get on perfectly because they're not still dating - QED. And if my 'buddy' said that he'd get a polite "fuck off".
Camillo 14y ago
But then those people will talk to their friends, and so on. And, contrary to what you might think, there's plenty of highly educated women who are sufficiently steeped in feminism (due to the process of acquiring that higher education) to see this as perfectly fair payback for patriarchy's many evils, and to use it without regret. So you end up targeting a thin sliver of possible women: not too superficial, but not too educated, and with no friends in either of those categories. Good luck with your dating.
- lcfg 14y ago
  >there's plenty of highly educated women who are sufficiently steeped in feminism (due to the process of acquiring that higher education) to see this as perfectly fair payback for patriarchy's many evils, and to use it without regret. Your implicit attack on morals derived from feminism reveals a failure to understand feminism and its ideals and effects. Furthermore, demonizing "plenty of highly educated women" as eye-for-an-eye combatants seeking revenge for patriarchy isn't just silly, it's offensive.

chime 14y ago

Wow, it's like everything that I used to fear about the dating world put into one shiny app. Had this been out years ago when I was single, it would've definitely given me a lot of anxiety. Having been happily married for 5 years, all I can say to single folks is that if someone actively rates people on apps/sites like this, they are most likely not the kind of people you want to be with in the long run. As for the startup/app itself, it's the natural evolution of taking HotOrNot ratings + OKCupid profiles + Fuckedcompany gossip and building it into a neat package. There is certainly a demand for apps like this in the market but if you're a user, try to be nice even if you don't like someone. People can become really mean when anonymous.

drharris 14y ago
Indeed. This would become the first question I asked a woman when trying to date. If she's childish enough to use something like this, I'd have no problem saying sayonara. There should be some expectation of maturity and general couth in any relationship.
- paranoiacblack 14y ago
  Indeed. If you decide to stop dating someone because of an application on their phone, you are the mature one and they are the child.
  - john_b 14y ago
    His point was that it's indicative of a childish and immature mentality, which is a judgment of a person, not a judgement of their phone.
  - drharris 14y ago
    Yes, it does. I have standards for the people I choose to involve myself with. In a similar vein, I would likely not even befriend anyone that uses it, or anyone that supports this type of application (either directed towards men or women). A big part of maturity is having personal integrity in all dealings. This means, for me, an automatic rejection of anyone who would use something like this. Similarly, I do not befriend constant gossips or complainers, and call my friends out when they do it. Certain people are a waste of relationship effort.

ndeyx 14y ago

Take a look here : http://m.luludude.com/ http://m.luludude.com/

edwardunknown 14y ago
What is that? It wants a Facebook.
- ndeyx 14y ago
  I don't have Facebook account myself, but it's related to Lulu app and onlulu (according to the faq). Apparently, guys can see what girls say about them.
  - kybernetyk 14y ago
    So you sign in with your FB account, they pull in your data and put it into their app db so ladies can find you easier? Very ... smart. /edit: Oh, their privacy disclaimer states that they will also pull your friends' data into their DB.
    - ndeyx 14y ago
      I don't think the main goal is to help people. Lulu get personal datas from girls (mobile app, onlulu) and from guys (luludude) with this system and probably make money with it. Helping ladies and guys is a "secondary" activity.
philipbjorge 14y ago
From onlulu.com's FAQ: "Lulu Dude is a separate app we created for the boys because we do not let them into the original Lulu. Guys don’t see what the girls see. We let them select their relationship status and profile picture and we encourage them to get their “fan base” to review them. Lulu Dude is also a place for guys to get self-improvement tips. Think of Lulu Dude as Cosmo for guys."

saosebastiao 14y ago

Interesting to see a startup with a business model that is entirely based in toeing the line of libel. I wouldn't bet on its sustainability...but certainly interesting to watch nonetheless.

joshuaheard 14y ago

I don't know if the link was about the app or the ridiculous "left" and "right" buttons that completely interfered with my reading the article.

peterkelly 14y ago

I used to be unhappy about this app until I found an SQL injection vulnerability that allowed me to log in and access the accounts of my previous dates by only needing to know their email addresses. This meant I was able to manipulate the ratings and comments people had made about me. Now I like the app :) Thanks Lulu!

shanelja 14y ago
Be careful with your trivial SQL injection, if the US police find out, that's 60 years behind bars, no access to a computer and daily "fun" in the shower.
- hyperbovine 14y ago
  But, no sexist gossip.
  - esquilax 14y ago
    You're not thinking like an entrepreneur. That just means that prison rape victims are an untapped* market. *badoom, pish!
    - 3825 14y ago
      I find it absolutely despicable to make light of violent abuse, including sexual abuse, in prison. We should be doing all we can to make our prisons safer for everyone. The fact that many people think it is OK to make and laugh at prison rape jokes sickens me. What would you think if I made rape jokes about your 90 year old grandma? Or your ten year old son? Or your wife? If that is not ok, neither is prison rape of adult men. I am appalled to realize many people think prison rape is part and parcel of the "prison experience". Should rape be used as a deterrent to unwanted behavior? Where do we stop? Will you be ok with teachers turning a blind eye on students raping other students in detention for not doing their homework or for misbehaving in the classroom? Answer me.
      - 14y ago

iand 14y ago

It sounds like something that's going to divide people on the moral compass but in the end you don't need to ask someone's permission before you can have an opinion of them and share it with other people.

praptak 14y ago
Technology changes the scale, though. Gossiping with your friend about your ex is different from sharing your opinion of said ex with thousands of people.

pathy 14y ago

How on earth could this app get funding? If it were a male->female app there would have been an outrage about it. Moral issues aside, I can see a lot of libel lawsuits (at least in the UK) springing up because of this app. There are enough rumours in the world as it is, we do not need apps that profit from people rating the opposite sex and spreading rumours about them.

skrebbel 14y ago
> How on earth could this app get funding? You sound like you expect investors to somehow be more guided by ethics than other people. Ever consider that it might be the other way around?
Kliment 14y ago
outrage = interets = traction = eyeballs, basically
theorique 14y ago
How on earth could this app get funding? The investors expect it to make more money than they put in.

btipling 14y ago

The connected nature of the internet and mobile devices reduces the cost of disseminating information. It doesn't discriminate about what information is made easier to share. Expecting app stores to play gate keepers sets a dangerous precedent. Imagine if the internet was an AOL app store and Steve Case had the final opinion on everything that would be made available to their users. You just have to roll with the punches and adjust. It's fine to be appalled at stuff like this, it goes over the top whenever you want someone to have authority to bring a stop to it for you. Adjusting your expectations and dealing with your objections are a better option than giving someone you can't really trust such long lasting power just to temporarily please your ego. In two days you're going to forget about this app, but then you'll probably have found something else on HN to be outraged about. Maybe it will be the app store gate keeper shutting down an app you liked.

jeffcutsinger 14y ago

I can't wait to see this buried beneath older stories with fewer points and comments, the way every story on sexism gets buried here. Oh wait this is about how awful women are to men. Never mind.

drharris 14y ago
What are you talking about? I see at least a few stories per week on sexism in the top 10. Given that this place is more technology/startup-related than "let's talk about society", that's a pretty good frequency for just one of many valid social causes.
- jeffcutsinger 14y ago
  Next time you see a story about sexism against women (redundant but needs the clarification here anyway), watch its movement. Yeah, it may get up in the top for a bit, but you can watch stories that are older with fewer points and comments move up above it. Happens every time.
  - drharris 14y ago
    I've seen this effect in other "heated" discussions, and I wonder if it's the effect of moderation. Primarily, what happens to a thread as the percentage of moderated messages increases? Is that metric involved in the positioning? I could see a topic like sexism (or emacs v. vi) getting an inordinate amount of moderation, and thus might be flagged more often, moving it down the list. Maybe that has nothing to do with it, but I've seen this effect before.
acheron 14y ago
Are... are you serious? Or is it just trolling? I'm not an obsessive HN reader but I see sexism stories show up at the top of the HN list all the time. To the point that I've taken it as one of the odd HN cultural quirks, that you all like to discuss it obsessively. Claiming they get "buried" is contrary to all evidence I've seen, though I guess if you have statistics I'm willing to be proven wrong.
14y ago

klrr 14y ago

This is bad.

S4M 14y ago

I don't see how it would prevent a man to create the fake account of a woman and post advantageous stuff about him (like the mentioned "big feet").

Irregardless 14y ago

Who cares? Would you want to date a girl who uses a gossip app anyway? No. Hell no. If this helps steer the superficial airheads in another direction, I'd only have one thing to say to Chong: "Thanks!" Saves us the trouble of finding out the hard way, at least.

loceng 14y ago
What about a girl who is acquaintances with a gossip girl who uses the app and searches for guy's they're dating, and lets them know about whatever is mentioned on there?
- jhull 14y ago
  I don't get why everyone is so paranoid about this. What are people trying to hide?
  - loceng 14y ago
    It has nothing about hiding anything, it has to do with people lying or telling "half-truths" (being dishonest) / stories skewed by anger, etc.. Many people are very sensitive and influenced people are by small / short stories whether they are even slightly negative or positive in nature.
  - john_b 14y ago
    Among many other good reasons, it's an app whose nature is determined by the same kind of dynamics that govern many restaurant and product reviews. Most of the time, satisfied customers don't bother to review the product or service because a certain psychological barrier first needs to be overcome (i.e. "writing this review is worth my time because it's SO good/bad"). Middle-of-the-road reviews rarely make it through, and when they do, they are typically short and uninsightful. Reviews that draw the most attention are those at the extremes. Human beings are generally more prone to extreme dissatisfaction than extreme satisfaction. It's in our nature. When is the last time you thought, "Man, that person drives SO well!" or "My bill is SO low this month!"? In the case of Lulu, the comments will heavily skew to the negative since "satisfied customers" will likely still be dating the guy (and thus not posting reviews) and dissatisfied ones will have every incentive to write vindictive comments in a last attempt to "get even". And those who are initially angry with the guy but later change their minds are likely to write a review during the angry phase and forget about it later, when their opinion of him has moderated. The end result is that most of the guys on the site will be portrayed in a much more negative light than is actually merited. In terms of its user base, it's really just catering to the female equivalent of guys who engage in "slut shaming". But it's more socially acceptable because the app targets men instead of women, and men are expected to be more psychologically durable.

neya 14y ago

Where are all the feminists now? This is the perfect example of double-standards implied by women. Imagine an alternative scenario where men could rate their female counterparts on the basis of their 'assets' as defined by some vague methodology. Imagine how much fire under men would be, with ALL men being broadly labelled as sexists because this app was targeted at men. I am seriously asking - Where are all the feminists now? And their blind-folded feminism?? Especially the ones who know this app..

jimzvz 14y ago
>I am seriously asking - Where are all the feminists now? Especially the ones who know this app.. Don't worry, they are certainly ready with the argument that it is the "patriarchy" that makes this app acceptable but not the reverse.
- duaneb 14y ago
  Most (all?) women I know who identify as feminist activists would not support this app, and I highly doubt anyone who would is really a feminist. This is equally harmful to women.
- cheez 14y ago
  I thought this was amazing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvYyGTmcP80 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvYyGTmcP80 "A woman is rude and abusive? PATRIRACHY!"
- Steuard 14y ago
  As I said to the previous poster, if you have a shred of evidence that "the feminists" consider this app to be acceptable (not just "less bad"), you should share it now. If you don't, then you might want to pause for a few minutes and seriously ask yourself why you said what you did. Because from my experience, opposing a service like this is a core value of feminism. (It may not be seen as a top priority, but that's a radically different statement.)
  - jimzvz 14y ago

ixacto 14y ago

This app is disturbing. It also wants storage, location, network, contacts, phone call permissions hence I highly doubt it is as private as its creators portray it as.

squozzer 14y ago

The real tragedy is that it will drive mate selection further towards those qualities that are most fleeting -- looks and wealth. I will now indulge myself with a chuckle as I think of all those women who will wake up one day years into the future and realize that #Big.Feet = #Cheater and #FatBankroll = #AlwaysAwayOnBusiness.

theorique 14y ago
Looks decline for women, but men start to look "distinguished". It depends a LOT on what the opposite sexes look for in a partner - men want something young and pretty to impress their friends and not say something too stupid, women want a dominant man who pays for stuff and makes decisions.

manuscreationis 14y ago

Millennia of imbalance towards men having the upper hand in just about all societies is a plain fact. However, progress and equality is not the reversal of an imbalance - it's the leveling of a playing field and accepting that to achieve real meaningful change, the notion of retribution must be taken off the table. Either it's ok for both genders to have a service like this, or it is not ok for either gender to have a service like this. End of story. Personally I'd find any site like this reprehensible for either gender (or any other biologically or socially discernable metric, for that matter).

lifeisstillgood 14y ago

Meh, whatever. It seems like a lot of social media - an online, permanent record of an evening in the bar. I get the impression that this is a "terrible thing" because it will actively hinder the dating chances of some people without redress or knowledge. (Which is exactly like an evening in the bar) Like privacy, our reputations are taking a digital battering. But just as people watch reality tv and boo at the evil ones, they also learn that they are booing five minutes edited conversation from 24 hours of life - lulu will carry on and so will gossip and bitchiness, but we will learn to adjust to the new levels of transparency - it may be a rough time, but it will happen. Nb I you can use SQL injection to get a hot date, and don't live up to the injected criteria, trust me, that story will not need lulu to spread

andyhmltn 14y ago

I thought they were talking about the self publishing company at first...

cupofjoakim 14y ago

Oddly, I don't mind this. I'd like a version for guys as well though, mostly to see the rage that would come up from the extreme feminists.

lcfg 14y ago
What kind of "extreme feminists" are you talking about, and why would you be glad to "see the rage"? It sounds like you'd like to verify your opinion on feminism by considering the arguments of a fringe minority.

S_A_P 14y ago

This is good. I wouldn't care to date or even consider someone who would resort to such shallow methods to figure out if I was "worth it". That is, assuming something negative about me would be said. I can't really see how this would be anything but negative towards the men. He would be an ex for a reason. Jgrahamc said it well- if you are using this app, you deserve who you get.

cyanbane 14y ago

I think some women are going to love this.... until someone builds the site that sits on the other side of the coin.

sabat 14y ago
Yeah, can you imagine? The moment women start getting tagged with things like #DoesntPutOut and #Bitchy, I suspect the conversation would be entirely different.
Nursie 14y ago
You could just build a database of Lulu users which would serve the same purpose!

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

Steuard 14y ago

I have two reactions to this, and I think most people who care about sexism in our society would agree with both: 1. From the sound of it, this is a horribly sexist product that dehumanizes men and reinforces traditional gender roles. I hope to one day see a world where an app like this couldn't exist because there would be no demand (and because everyone would be disgusted by the basic concept). 2. Actively opposing this product is a lower priority than many other issues in our society. While this app does harm the men it targets, that harm occurs against a social backdrop that does not in general emphasize treating men this way. (That is, such attitudes exist, but they are rarely the primary lens through which men are viewed.) In contrast, a similar app targeting women would reinforce negative social norms that are often the primary way in which women are viewed. (Consider how often articles about women in politics comment on their appearance and clothing choices, as compared to how often articles about men do so.) In short, every feminist that I know would be unhappy about this system, but there's no hypocrisy in those same people being less upset about it than about similar treatment of women. Yes, both men and women suffer unfair treatment because of how our society deals with gender. But women have much farther to go.

obviouslygreen 14y ago
...but there's no hypocrisy in those same people being less upset about it than about similar treatment of women. You clearly believe this, but that's what it is, your belief. I disagree; women may have "much farther to go," but that doesn't mean this is somehow intrinsically less important to people who really do support equality. There is nothing wrong with establishing your own priorities. Calling this a lower one with the justification that you are more concerned about women's issues, instead of issues of sexual equality as a whole, would have been more honest. Less benevolent, but then nobody's perfect: Better to be clearly flawed, like the rest of us, than to fabricate some sort of intrinsic dominance where a true egalitarian would find none.
- Steuard 14y ago
  I may be misunderstanding you here, so I'd appreciate a bit of clarification. The way I'm reading your argument, it sounds to me like your claim is something like, "Context doesn't matter: similar forms of harm necessarily carry similar moral weight." Thus, this app is intrinsically just as serious of an issue as a similar app rating women would be. But that reasoning doesn't make any sense to me. I don't see how you couldn't apply the same argument to say "Regardless of context, it's always equally bad to violently shove someone," ignoring the difference between shoving someone standing on flat ground and shoving someone standing at the edge of a cliff. Of course I would be more upset about shoving in some contexts than in others. So my claim is that the same reasoning applies here. This app absolutely does harm men, but the position of men in society is such that the resulting harm is fairly contained: this service is notable precisely because it's unusual. On the other hand, a similar app for rating women would be yet another contribution to a vast complex of social attitudes and institutions that combine to have a powerful oppressive effect. My sense is that network effects would reinforce and magnify the harm that such an app would do to women. So yes, when evaluating my desire for sexual equality as a whole, I find myself more pressingly concerned about women's issues. But from my perspective, that's not an arbitrary preference but a rational choice.

kybernetyk 14y ago

At first I was: Well, that is sexist. But then I was: I just need a few fake reviews ...

Ygg2 14y ago
And you get idiot airheads as your partner? My only thought allow for a others to check if someone uses Lulu or not. That's a great filter, right there.

myth 14y ago

If there ever were a service deserving of an indefinite DDOS, this would be it.

rada 14y ago
There was. It was called Facemash and is now Facebook.

darxius 14y ago

I'm amazed at the kinds of apps which exist and get exposure. This is stuff which might have been fun in high school, but there are actual adults using this. Not to mention the insane double standard. I'd love to see a man make a similar app for rating women this way. I'm sure there would be news reports and tons of angry feminists flooding the airwaves.

quesera 14y ago
The older I get, the more I realize that a large percentage of the population never actually graduates from high school.
ohkine 14y ago
Try being a woman on the Internet — anywhere on the Internet, not this one idiot site — and then talk about insane double-standards. When every other online interaction involves at least a few men commenting on your fuckability or how much of a 'bitch' you are, or going digging through all of your previous posts or even tracking down your Facebook account so that they can publicly share your body with all of the other men reading, and you have no recourse lest you be labelled an 'angry feminist', you will find that one single Web site where women treat men in a similar fashion does not inspire the same level of passion that it is doing here. It is a terrible Web site, obviously, but i am envious of the social position that leads to such a complete lack of irony and self-reflection as seen in these comments.
- darxius 14y ago
  The fact that other double standards exist in other parts of the internet isn't what I was debating. I won't argue with you that there is an inherit double standard among both sexes, but seeing as this thread is about the website in question -- that's the one I was addressing. Also, in no way should double standards and sexism lead to more double standards and sexism.
  - ohkine 14y ago
    If you had simply decried the site's 'sexism' i would not have taken issue with your post. What you'd said was that it was an 'insane double standard'. The definition of a double-standard is 'the application of different sets of principles for similar situations, or two different people in the same situation'. Your use of the term 'insane double standard' (not to mention the other comments here using similar language) therefore suggests that the existence of one single Web site dedicated to women objectifying men is a 'similar situation' to living every single day in a culture where only the OPPOSITE is actually a real problem. And as much as i can identify with the distaste over this Web site, i find that that implication is laughable and the emotional outrage over it is therefore severely misplaced.

VexXtreme 14y ago

I bet it's just a matter of time before they piss off the wrong person, get hacked or DDoSed out of existence. And I sincerely hope that the bitch who owns the company never succeeds at another product again.

quesera 14y ago
Too much vitriol. Playing to the base instincts of the hoi polloi is rarely a bad business strategy. But it is self-debasing. She should grow up. So should you. Interesting: "hoi polloi" autocorrects to "hot pollo". And now I'm hungry.
rada 14y ago
Kind of like when Mark Zuckerberg made Facemash to rank female undergrads, and then never succeeded at anything after that?

paduc 14y ago

This app would be illegal in France. It's illegal to have a database of people without letting these people see, modify and destroy their profiles. Doesn't any such law exist in the US?

guelo 14y ago

Weird that /r/MensRights made it to the front page this morning.

tomasien 14y ago

Some good points made, but in this instance I think voice and perspective matter, and I'd greatly prefer to see a piece like this written by a woman. A man's voice just does nothing for me in this instance. We could have the "words vs. words+voice" debate, but let's just skip it because voice matters.

danpalmer 14y ago

They have the ability to remove a Facebook account from their system permanently. Email them asking to be removed and they will add you to the blocked list so that no one can rate/review you and you do not appear on the network in any way.

fab13n 14y ago

How do they prevent men from creating fake female accounts and see what's told about them? Do they take steps to anonymize the evaluators? Even if they do, timing the changes in the evaluations will allow to guess who said what, except for the most frantic womanizers. I can foresee a Lulu user being busted, bad things happening to her, and Lulu being sued. Finally, for those who talk about DDoSing the site: it's smarter and funnier to build a Lulu whistleblowing bot, which makes stuff more public than intended.

mgkimsal 14y ago

Wow - Blair Warner was doing this 25 years ago! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=toeIzZZxEkw http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=toeIzZZxEkw The more things change....

CopyrightX 14y ago

"Lulu’s Term of Service disingenuously shifts the responsibility of notifying men of their unwitting participation to Lulu's users, which I’m inclined to believe has never happened." WHAT?! You mean the Lulu app users might not be strictly adhering to the site's Terms of Service?! Well, notify the FBI about that! There's a law created in 1984 https://www.eff.org/issues/cfaa https://www.eff.org/issues/cfaa for JUST such criminals as these, and it makes the users guilty of committing a felony offense (a perfectly reasonable use of the law in this case)! Never mind the EFF's Week-Of-Action for reforming the CFAA this week https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/04/help-us-remember-aaron-swartz-participating-our-week-action-demanding-congress https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/04/help-us-remember-aaron... . Lulu's users are clearly a threat to society and deserve felony convictions for their awful behavior here.

DanBC 14y ago

The MRAs are out in force.

hnriot 14y ago

Does anyone really care? Maybe the young insecure men who have grown up with hash tags and their online persona having some kind of meaning. But anyone with an ounce of confidence wouldn't care less. Women have always gossiped and always will. It's not about the men, it's a way for women to bond over common experiences and shared empathy.

untog 14y ago

Wait, Hacker News is OK talking about gender now? Because I thought that stuff got flagged because it wasn't "relevant"- evidently the community has had quite the change of heart recently. Either that, or it's OK because it's about men and not women. One of the two.

peterwwillis 14y ago
Are you new here? Every time there's a story in any way relating to sexism, the community jumps on it like it's somehow a worthwhile conversation, when really everyone just wants to put their two cents in. Like me for example.
- untog 14y ago
  They really don't, though. A number of people jump on, then the thread gets flagged to death. Only when it's about women, though: http://tumbling.alastair.is/post/42050321362/why-are-posts-about-the-geeklist-controversy-being http://tumbling.alastair.is/post/42050321362/why-are-posts-a...
  - peterwwillis 14y ago
    Women are more often the victims, hence more stories about them, hence more discussion. I haven't seen a story yet about a guy who was a victim of sexism in this industry, but I also can't say the stories don't exist just because I haven't seen them. What I have seen is public acknowledgement from pg that they delete stories that get voted up just because they feel like it. So the community doesn't necessarily get a say.
  - jules 14y ago
    There have been many more stories about sexism targeted at females than the reverse.

crux_ 14y ago

The comments here are absolutely disgusting. Sure, this service is shallow, and absolutely disrespectful of privacy, etc... But the amount of faux outrage you're all whipping yourselves into a froth over is really over the top. So much hate and resentment. :( Oh, and those of you claiming there would be some sort of anti-man frenzy if there was a site targeting similar gossip by men? It's been done. No outrage. The most prominent example? Facebook.

sabat 14y ago
A scan of the comments, all reasonable commentary, tells me that you're likely a troll.
mnicole 14y ago
With all the commentary here you'd think all feminists are the kind that want to "overthrow" men and it's women's fault a company primarily consisting of men were funded, and have developed and marketed this app. There are far creepier and more intrusive apps and services out there. Instead of blindly blaming feminists (without actually understanding what most feminists actually stand for) for them being on the marketplace, blame the developers and encourage the ecosystems they're a part of to stop allowing apps whose primary intentions are to shame or label unknowing persons. Your rage is Streisand-effecting this thing and propelling it further than it would have gone otherwise. What were the totals in those gender polls yesterday? The current numbers are sitting at Male - 1201 / Female - 72 / Other - 30. And it shows (particularly because a lot of women specifically signed up yesterday just to participate in it and will probably go back to lurking for good reason). I think many forget this place is actually less diverse than Reddit in demographics, frequented mostly by the 18-24 male, we just pretend that there's higher expectations in how one speaks and treats the upvote/downvote system even though that seemingly goes out the window when discussing topics like these, where opposing viewpoints are downvoted as quickly as they're posted and the women-blaming posts are upvoted. When we have threads about revenge-porn sites, where are these same angry posters? Instead we get slut-shaming in the form of, "Well maybe you shouldn't be sending those types of photos if you don't want them to end up in the wrong hands." They act as though photos of naked males are passed around as quickly and have the same effect on the victim as they do females. Do you remember the threads about /r/creepshots and how many here were defending the right to post these photos even if they contained personally-identifying information (location, scars, tattoos, etc.) because "freedom of speech" and "let Reddit be Reddit" and the always rational "well she was in public so she doesn't have any say in who can take a picture of her, regardless of how depraved it is". But oh no, some woman on some app nobody is going to use is going to call me a creep and it's going to ruin my life - the privilege! The idea that "I don't experience privilege and I know this because I am not to blame for anything that happened before my existence," is trying to argue a point that only extremist feminists are making; no one's blaming the current crop of men for past problems that exist today (not most of them, anyway). That doesn't negate the fact that these values and expectations have already permeated through our society and are affecting everyone in ways many do not notice in their day-to-day. It's a shame that this was the first post I am commenting on today, after seeing the existing dialogue here and the sibling comment to my post (albeit [dead]), I'm sure there will be some fun responses. But I needed to get things done today anyway. TL;DR We have things to work on on both sides, but blaming women for a product not even created by women is really unnecessary and unproductive, particularly when similar apps for men are already on the market and have been linked in this thread.

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

charlieok 14y ago

Hmm, now I kinda want to use the app to see if/when anything gets posted about me. But I don't want to help this become more of a thing. And I sure as hell don't want to give it access to my Facebook account. Edit: saw the “no boys allowed” clause. Great. So I guess using it would require a fake Facebook account?

nemik 14y ago

This is fantastic. Any girl who uses something like this is someone to stay away from anyway and now it just gets easier. Keep up the good work.

marvin 14y ago

I am so happy that I'm steering well clear of mainstream dating these days. This is the worst of mainstream dating culture, distilled and ready to use. If nothing else, you could make awareness/usage of this app a dealbreaker and use it as a filter for girls you would definitely not want as a partner.

networked 14y ago

If you're a single straight guy who has any kind of web following and you fear Lulu will be detrimental to your dating you can probably apply the following counter-strategy: ask your followers to register fake Lulu accounts and give you bizarre, negative reviews. Once the number and the severity and absurdity of the reviews cross a certain threshold it will be clear that those are not all to be taken seriously. This will drown out any real negative reviews of you with noise and, should many people start doing it, bring the overall credibility of the site down. Disclaimer: I'm not advocating that you do so.

keammo1 14y ago

How much outrage is there over The Playbook app, which lets men share and rate pictures of their "romantic encounters"? Seemingly less than there is over LuLu, unless I missed it. http://theplaybookapp.com/ http://theplaybookapp.com/

Nursie 14y ago
IIRC that hit HN a few months to a year ago. Everyone said it was slimy and disgusting and that the creators should feel bad for being assholes. So there's that. --edit-- Here is is - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5087859 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5087859 It wasn't as as popular as this topic, and there are one or two "how will you monetise this" posts, but in general it got slammed.
- danielweber 14y ago
  The free market is good at giving people what they want. But sometimes, people getting what they want is a horrible thing.

maxcan 14y ago

Honestly, I don't think that this is particularly sexist at all. My only issue is the massive double standard in the media and culture that takes a pass on this but would raise hell if someone released the same exact app with the genders reversed.

irishcoffee 14y ago

Am I the only one tempted to make an app called Ulul..?

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

onemorepassword 14y ago

Good thing this will never spread far beyond the US. Utterly illegal in most Western countries. It's not even a grey area, laws were written to prevent almost exactly this kind of thing. Surprised they even tried to launch in the UK and had it running without getting sued or prosecuted.

joyeuse6701 14y ago

There were a lot of websites like this (anonymous gossip) when I was in college that would come up, get really popular and then someone would get a lot of flack, be emotionally traumatized, and the universities would petition for a take down. All it will take is one suicide to tear this app down.

Aco- 14y ago
oh, is that all it will take? human lives are so cheap today. I suppose we should just count the minutes then.

duncan_bayne 14y ago

This a fantastic idea. We should encourage Lulu to give away free t-shirts, so that men know who to avoid dating :)

jack9 14y ago

If you care about what other people say about your or read and imagine about you (an anonymous person) on a random social app, your life might be juvenile and/or completely devoid of meaning. Adults meeting face to face sum each other up in a matter of moments. Nothing promised or promoted or warned changes that. Someone should tell this guy to grow up.