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Ex-Prime Minister Baroness Thatcher dies, aged 87
- dregin 14y agoFascist.
- abrown28 14y agoIdiot
- dmix 14y agoShe was a bit nationalist towards the latter half of her career but hardly a fascist. Fascist gets thrown around too liberally. But Thatcher was far from authoritarian. She was actually fighting against large government authoritarianism when she gained power. Although she had moments where she used excessive state force against citizens such as: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UK_miners%27_strike_(1984%E2%80%931985) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UK_miners%27_strike_(1984%E2%80...
- handelaar 14y ago"Far from authoritarian" ? She put hundreds of thousands of UK citizens under secret service surveillance for the crime of disagreeing with her government's decisions. I was one of them. Aged sixteen I walked out of our house on the way to school every morning and passed the fake BT engineer changing the tape in the green switch box outside the house next door, reattaching something to our house phone with crocodile clips. Mail took weeks to arrive because it was intercepted and read en route. I was stopped for questioning at every border point I passed in Europe until I was in my late 20s. All this because not being a Thatcherite in Britain in the 1980s made us "enemies of the state".
- hp50g 14y agoYep. I saw this with my own eyes once. I had a disreputable youth in the 1980s which involved trying to steal linesman sets (for phreaking) from those old yellow BT Bedford vans (anyone remember Busby?) One of them turned out to be a spook wagon. This was in Islington in north London. Really nearly got in deep shit on that one. People might think you are nuts but its spot on and its worse now than ever.
- cs02rm0 14y agoCute story.
- herdrick 14y agoReally? I'd take as given that this is happening now, as it's cheap. But back then? Can you link to some evidence of this?
- DanBC 14y agoECHELON was revealed by Duncan Campbell in 1988. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duncan_Campbell_(journalist)#ECHELON https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duncan_Campbell_(journalist)#E...) He also wrote a book about the amount of police surveillance going on in the UK. I hated Thatcher. I wouldn't put the surveillance down to just her. There were plenty of other people involved in making lists and monitoring people. (The building industry would use blacklists of agitators. This was so severe it was one of the drivers for the data protection act, and it was this list that caused the act to be extended to cover non-computerised information too.) Certainly, it would be odd for people to blame Thatcher for the number of CCTV in the UK now. The UK has about 20% of all the world's CCTV! (I haven't checked this, it was a comment on a Radio 4 news programme so maybe it's nonsense).
- dreamfactory 14y agoShe was highly corporatist - which is a hallmark of fascism.
- penny500 14y agoThis is like me saying Obama is a collectivist - which is a hallmark of communism. It makes me ignorant, so let's not be ignorant.
- dreamfactory 14y agoWell there was the collusion between the government, police, and courts during the miners strike and also the use of blacklisting. Then there's the homophobia (another common strand with the kind of control freaks who are attracted to fascism) - guess who said: "children who need to be taught to respect traditional moral values are being taught that they have an inalienable right to be gay". Then there was the support of war-criminal, torturer, and undisputed actual-Fascist Pinochet, whom she protected from trial and described as "bringing democracy to Chile". There's a reason they say you can tell a lot about a man from his friends. A telling detail on the corporatocracy was when her economic advisor, Alan Walters, admitted in an interview that they had deliberately kept unemployment high to drive down wages. I don't consider her explicitly a Fascist, (my own contrary view is that she was more a massive opportunist and somewhat a political fraud, which might even be amusing at some level if it hadn't involved so many deaths) - but some have sincere reasons to see her as having conducted a kind of fascism-lite. If it walks like a duck...
- dreamfactory 14y agoOn reflection for measure and balance, I guess I should also have mentioned her support of apartheid (describing Nelson Mandela as "a terrorist"), and her support of the Khmer Rouge :/
- lostlogin 14y agoWhere would you place Blair? I'm unsure what to think of his hidden religious side, but have strong views on his Murdoch ties, Bush pandering and subsequent obfuscating of his role in the Iraq debacle.
- Leszek 14y agoI very curious what the funeral will be like -- I imagine there will have to be a hell of a lot of security to protect the body and attendees.
- protomyth 14y agoPer her request, she won't be lying in state, so that should cut down on some of the problems.
- rikacomet 14y agoRIP, the Great Iron Lady. You were a big inspiration to me. There would never be anyone like you and late Indra Gandhi. The two Maiden-de-People of mid-80s.
- sks 14y agoI dont know a lot about Thatcher but when Indira Gandhi's election was overturned by the courts on ground of election fraud she proceeded to suspend elections and civil liberties. I hope that you are correct and we would never see anyone like Indira Gandhi, no nation deserves to be ruled by a tyrant like her.
- zahabat 14y agoRight. Most people in the west don't know about The Emergency [1] following the fraud that got her elected. Then her political and social interference with the Sikh community (part of the most vocal opposition to the Emergency [2]), which lead to Operation Bluestar [3] and subsequently her assassination [4]. These events form the worst part of Indian politics since independence. Her rise to power was not due to her personality or skill. She was simply the daughter of Nehru, the first prime minister of India and a close aide of MK Gandhi. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emergency_(India) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emergency_(India) [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emergency_(India)#Sikh_opposition http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emergency_(India)#Sikh_oppo... [3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Blue_Star http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Blue_Star [4] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Indira_Gandhi http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Indira_Gandhi
- fakeer 14y agoI know Thatcher only from films and articles but Indira Gandhi was no maiden-de-people and if at all she was anything she was a spoil(and neglected) brat with perverted and suppressed sexual traits(since teenage), dictatorial attitude, a misleading/misguiding cabinet(cocoon of shrewd cronies) and a lunatic son who most probably desired to outdo Hitler(died in a plane crash, some say mum got him done). [In the comparison her daughter-in-law seems so stoic and regal with a clean past, but supposedly(not guilty till proven) too corrupt to...] She successfully exhibited the second trait, when she was was done for in a fair election, by imposing emergency rule over India - which essentially means what a coup-d'etat does to a democracy. PS. Thatcher was not born a Baroness. So, she accepted it later it seems. Well, unlike most other parts of world them Brits still love their royals! Good going :-)
- ErrantX 14y agoI know Thatcher was a polarising individual; for her politics and actions during the mining strikes etc. However, she rose to the top of an extremely male dominated field through conviction and sheer force of personality. And I think that deserves respect in itself. Given the current issues surrounding gender equality in many fields, her example should serve as inspiration. (Fact I have just learned; she was born just down the road from me! I'm quite surprised Grantham doesn't make a bigger deal of her roots there)
- rikacomet 14y agoIndeed, there is a great hole in my heart today, MG was a good example of how a lady can balance both feminism, and supposed masculine activities of leadership, strong influence, unshakable character, and above all, the ability to change the world as we know it. IG, was a similar case, though unpopular in west, due to the political situations back then, but here is a video, that dives into her personality. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKiQboyDMUo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKiQboyDMUo
- chrisvineup 14y agoExactly the problem that Emma Goldman had with feminism, if women are looking to hold the same morally bankrupt positions of power that men have then equality is a false hope for all. She fucked over a lot of people, she is hated still by a large portion of the British people to do this as a woman within the male dominated power structures of the time is nothing to be proud of.
- Uchikoma 14y ago"if women are looking to hold the same morally bankrupt positions of power that men have" This is pure sexism and stereotyping men.
- raganwald 14y agoNot necessarily. Consider a society with two kinds of "Sneetches." One kind has stars, one does not. They begin with equal numbers on an island with equal opportunities, but socially they have network effects: They prefer to do business with "their own kind" and so forth. Such a system could be unstable: A small, random increase in power by either group could accelerate over time the way tribes in survivor can create coïlitionsn and eliminate everyone else. Now let's say we end up with all the positions of power held by the Sneetches with stars. A Sneetch without a star might make a similar comment. But perhaps, this Sneetch has the insight to see that what needs to be changed is the system, rather than merely shuffling the players around. Putting Sneetches without stars into positions of power in and of itself won't change the inherent problem of network effects. Perhaps things will realign around Sneetches from the West side of the Island, or Sneetches that like a particular sport, but still be discriminatory in a way. This Sneetch might simply want to change the underlying mechanism of Sneetch society. Go for a cure, you might say, rather than relieve a symptom.
- andrelaszlo 14y agohttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thatcherism#Criticism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thatcherism#Criticism All respect to the brilliant person though.
- hhariri 14y agoI guess history has taught us that poverty is irrelevant of who wins the elections.
- lifeisstillgood 14y agoI am subtly torn here. I am one of "Thatcher's children" having grown up in the late seventies and eighties. I clearly remember watching her enter Downing St and my mother telling me that things were going to get better now a woman was in charge. She oversaw wrenching shifts in Britain's social and economic structures, was hated, respected, but rarely loved and kicked out without ceremony. But my abiding memories are of something getting done. Rarely were there somethings that everyone agreed upon, rarely was it done well, but things were done. Thatcher had an agenda when she came to power. Her "success" over the Falklands enabled her to push that agenda - one of massive economic change. It seemed obvious and overdue to her and her main advisors that the semi-Keynesian establishment needed shaking up. And she and her band of, at the time, outsiders, did just that. Something happened. Something inevitable. In the deadlocked worlds of politics I see in the UK and US, this is a trait that might be worth admiring. But now in my own middle age, well, if I were PM now, my personal focus would be on the changes needed to deal with the Internet as the Central nervous system of humankind - issues of privacy, of government accessibility, of security of networks and national assets, of education policy. Those are my "Bleedin obvious" policy shifts. Things I would drive home ruthlessly, because not to do so would be like a time traveller knowing the all the days winning horses and still not betting. So, to sum up, doing something in politics takes a special kind of ruthlessness. Sometimes we need to have people who will sacrifice others in order to make the inevitable happen now - there are many mining towns feeling the sacrifice to this day. But we need now not to debate the issues of 1980, but to look at the next inevitable changes - and do our best to get ahead of them. Much of the Eurozone troubles are down to the countries missing a Thatcher, and having politicians who simply waited till the inevitable happened. Can anyone spot a politician who gets the needs of 2040?
- ofacup 14y agorich kid's tantrums. same as tatcher. how about thinking of 4th generation unemployment, starving people or anything else that will make a difference to the world? you don't think differently. don't kid yourself. you like the rich kid's war
- kokey 14y agoThe economist Professor Frank Hahn also passed away recently this year. He was the instigator of the famous letter to her, signed by 364 economists, saying that her policies have no basis in economics and will deepen the recession. He did redeem himself many years later when he signed a letter sympathising with her resistance against joining the EU monetary union. This was also the issue that was a big part of her downfall, while it now appears that her concerns showed much foresight.
- camus 14y agoWell i did not like her for sure , but RIP. We all die , no matter if we are king or slaves , poor or rich , famous or anonymous.
- kentwistle 14y agoMay God rest her soul, her memory will never be forgotten.
- ofacup 14y agoshe (god) sure will if she's not a miner... otherwise, she'll be in for a rough time. either way, the sooner she's forgotten, the better for all mankind. the rich already have it better, it's the poor that need help. i'm sorry you feel that way. losing your soul must be traumatic
- dmix 14y ago> it's the poor that need help http://www.ted.com/talks/hans_rosling_reveals_new_insights_on_poverty.html http://www.ted.com/talks/hans_rosling_reveals_new_insights_o... This is happening. Slowly. Like all change.
- oliverhunt 14y agoYou do realise those things dont just happen. They happen through progressive social and economic policy.
- crystal520 14y agoRIP.One of the greatest human in Mid-80s.
- steamboiler 14y agoI'll probably get down voted for this but I'll say it nonetheless. Roger Ebert and now Margaret Thatcher. I respect them both but IMHO HN is hardly the place to mourn them. Just my 2c. (FWIW I can't flag this article; I would have if I could)
- ErrantX 14y agoI've recently changed my view on this. HN hasn't been "just about tech and startups" for some time - the community is simply too diverse. That's not necessarily a bad thing; I still always learn unique insights or new facts from threads one might consider off-topic. And that is the defining aspect of HN IMO (it's why I first joined years ago)
- Heliosmaster 14y agoI agree.. from the guidelines: > If they'd cover it on TV news, it's probably off-topic.
- philwelch 14y agoWhy isn't this the top comment?
- andyl 14y agoI agree 100% - ban all politics and celebrity discussion from HN.
- MattDL 14y agoThis is the sanest discussion of this topic I've seen so far, having this here adds something. This place isn't just for tech news anymore, whether that's a good thing I'm sure people will disagree over.
- D_hemming 14y agoHer condition is described as 'Satisfactory'.
- hackerboos 14y agoI don't see the point of this being posted. This is likely to turn into a shit-storm of left-right fighting.
- Taylorious 14y agoDidn't you hear? HN is now a general discussion forum where super intelligent technical people have wonderfully stimulating discussions about every topic in the news, and do it in a respectful and mature way. /end sarcasm
- yread 14y agoThis clip somehow made it to my FB feed https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQ6TgaPJcR0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQ6TgaPJcR0 "Margaret Thatcher does the Dead Parrot Sketch"
- deleted 14y ago[deleted]
- richardjordan 14y agoThere are plenty of others who grew up in Thatcher's Britain I understand the negative sentiment of many Britons towards her. My main beef is the squandering of Britain's oil. We had a one time bounty of oil in the UK and to deliver temporary tax cuts at the high end of the tax bracket her government sold off as much oil as possible as fast as possible at low low rates (<$10 per barrel) - a policy also aimed at financially attacking the Soviet Union. However as the UK slipped from the fourth largest exporter in the world to a net importer of oil, oil which is ten times as expensive, the UK has serious problems. The tax cuts are long gone, and I'm pretty sure nobody is paying for the UK's oil as a thank you for helping bankrupt the USSR. I guess the point is while the social effects of her policies are the main focus of criticism for many, her economic prowess was based on a giveaway if a one-time resource wil long term negative strategic consequences for the country.
- lazyant 14y agoResponsible for 323 lives: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARA_General_Belgrano http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARA_General_Belgrano
- chollida1 14y agoNot sure what your point is. Any leader who has a country in combat will loose soldiers. From the page you linked to: > After consultation at Cabinet level, Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher agreed that Commander Chris Wreford-Brown should attack the Belgrano.[7] So she listened to her top military advisers and agreed to their plan. Not sure there's anything wrong with that.
- lostlogin 14y agoListen to military advisors, sure. But be careful. Iraq and Afghanistan are recent, but in 100% of wars someone's advisors are wrong.
- 9392732 14y agoWhilst defending British civilians from invasion by Argentine aggressors. Argentina got slapped back off those islands.
- petercooper 14y agoAnd how many for Churchill? Blame for casualties is usually chalked up for the aggressor in a war, not the defenders.
- lostlogin 14y agoNot quite true - particularly of WW2 where is was big and long. Dresden, Hiroshima, Russian treatment of German prisoners etc. The list is very long. And where do you draw the line between aggressor and defender? Were Germany and Japan the aggressors in 1945? New Zealand helped defend the UK, as did many dominion nations. However while the threat to New Zealand was felt (from Japan), it was hardly playing the role of a defender (and declared war on Germany before the UK did). This position is common in many conflicts.
- rdl 14y agoI'm still confused why even relatively normal tech/libertarian-lite Scottish people seem to hate her so much (e.g. cstross), to the point of dancing on her grave.
- arethuza 14y agoProbably (in no particular order): - The poll tax being first implemented here in Scotland - Implicit support for South Africa's apartheid regime - Squandering Scottish oil revenues on unsustainable tax cuts - Allowing the US to station nuclear cruise missiles in the UK when there was very strong anti-nuclear feelings - Ruthlessly closing heavy industries with no apparent thought for the social costs ("no such thing as society") - this hit central Scotland really badly - The "Sermon on the Mound" - which upset a lot of Christians in Scotland - The violence and oppression of the Miners Strike (mind you, not that the miners were saints) - Insensitive handling of Northern Ireland (e.g. the hunger strikers) NB I'm not necessarily saying that I agree with all of these points - but there is still a lot of bitterness in Scotland about the Thatcher years. Personally, I think she probably did more good than harm for the UK as a whole - but lets not pretend that there was a lot of harm caused by her goverment and a whole generation of people in Scotland will never forget that.
- MattDL 14y agoShe was one of those people who manage to inspire emotion in others. A lot of bad, but she garnered (and still does somewhat) a huge amount of respect. For someone who has so much public hatred around her, you have to remember she still managed to win elections while all this was far more raw and happening around her.
- pekk 14y agoThatcher was not Hitler, but all the things you just said could also be said of Hitler. He won elections, too. So what?
- hp50g 14y agoHer election success is only because the voting system here is biased and most of the population aren't really evolved past primate level. The media control the outcome of an election. Her popularity is a myth perpetrated by the media. There is no respect from anyone who knows the facts.
- justincormack 14y agoIt is worth reading the policies that brought her into power again eg http://www.margaretthatcher.org/document/112551 http://www.margaretthatcher.org/document/112551 UK politics was dominated by the unions in a way that is unthinkable now and tax policy has changed a lot. It feels more honest than today's politics although what was proposed and what was delivered were not entirely in line. The papers on that site are fascinating... I was only 10 when she came to power but she was a huge figure of that time.
- malkia 14y agoRust In Peace Iron Lady!
- andrewcooke 14y agohttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-BZIWSI5UQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-BZIWSI5UQ
- denzil_correa 14y agoMargaret Thatcher was a research chemist, a barrister and former "Secretary of State for Education and Science". Thatcher may also may have helped invent "soft-serve ice cream" [0]. [0] http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2013/04/margaret-thatcher-helped-invent-soft-serve-ice-cream/274767/ http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2013/04/margar...
- travem 14y agoI was impressed by Paddy Ashdown's comments on her - http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/apr/08/what-did-margaret-thatcher-do-britain http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/apr/08/what-did... "I opposed almost everything she did (but found myself following many of them when I tried to get the Bosnian economy going by lowering taxes and freeing up the market). Though there will be many who saw her as the author of much destruction that we still mourn, much that she pulled down needed to be pulled down." "She was better as destroyer of old tired institutions and lazy ways of thinking than she was as the builder of new ones; better at defining divisions than building cohesion. But probably that's what Britain needed then. Had we on the left not grown so lazy about our addictions to the easy ways of state corporatism, she would perhaps have been less successful at so cruelly exposing their hollowness." "If politics is the ability to have views, hold to them and drive them through to success, she was undoubtedly the greatest prime minister of our age, and maybe even the greatest politician."
- lostlogin 14y agoEmail from my father at 7.17 this morning: >>I just looked at the Grauniad, Independent, TImes, Telegraph - all have front pages dominated by her. I then went to the Scotsman to see what the view was… there was no mention at all….<< I see she is there now.