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Minors cannot enter into binding contracts, so the parts of the terms of service that specify a code of conduct, waive liability, etc. are not enforceable. Mino

Minors cannot enter into binding contracts, so the parts of the terms of service that specify a code of conduct, waive liability, etc. are not enforceable. Minors are legally toxic because of this, and no self-interested American business would ever knowingly interact with a minor online. Conveniently ignored in all the stories about teenage whiz-kids who make money off internet businesses is that they are invariably committing federal felonies. There is not a single payment processor that doesn't require its users to be 18. Apple's developer program also requires its users to be 18. So does AdSense. These services also require users to input a birthday, so the minors using them needn't worry about "hacking" charges - they've committed fraud. Obviously we need to fix the legal situation that makes this necessary, but that's why. (And because my parents follow rules, I wasn't allowed to do anything vaguely entrepreneurial on the internet until I turned 18).

gambiting 14y ago
Hang on,so you cannot open a bank account before you are 18 in the US? In most EU countries you need to be 13 to open your own bank account.
- superuser2 14y ago
  Nope. You can have access to an account with your name on it, but it needs to be held jointly with an adult (typically a parent) and they have to accompany you to the bank and give permission to open it.
  - gambiting 14y ago
    .....nothing is going to surprise me about the US anymore.
    - deleted 14y ago
      [deleted]
  - jmj42 14y ago
    We just opened a checking account for our 17 y/o daughter. To be specific, the account must be opened in the minors name with a legal parent or guardian as a co-signatory. Either way, you're right. Minors can not, in the United States, enter into a legally binding contract. They can't even legally purchase a car as there is an implied or express purchase contract.
    - gamblor956 14y ago
      Minors can enter into a legally binding contract in the U.S. However, the seller in a purchase contract cannot enforce a contract against the minor if the minor does not pay (though the minor can enforce the contract against the seller if the minor pays but does not receive the purchased item, i.e., the car). The purpose of making the parent a co-signatory to the contract is to enforce the contract against the parent if necessary.
      - jmj42 14y ago
        Correct. Technically, the contract is voidable by the minor in most cases. There's exceptions, and state rules come into play. For instance, I believe, in CA if a minor misrepresents his/her age, then the contract can not be avoided. In IL, I believe, that's not the case, the contract can still be avoided.
    - superuser2 14y ago
      Yep. A Wisconsin auto title has a "parent signature" line - your parents must give you permission to hold the title for a car you purchase with your own money.
- ryusage 14y ago
  IIRC, when I got a bank account at 15 or so, my parents had to go with me to the bank and they had to also have their names on the account.
- VLM 14y ago
  A bank savings account has no liability, so I was able to open mine when I was 15 or so without any parental involvement. A bank checking account has all kinds of interesting legal issues WRT bounced checks, so I couldn't open my checking account until after my 18th birthday. Also no credit cards until I was 18. Nothing defines arbitrary and capricious like our financial and legal systems, so this could have changed last week, probably to "protect us from the terrorists" or "save the children".
  - superuser2 14y ago
    At my bank, they won't touch you without a parent if you're under 18. A lot of 12-18 kids "have" savings accounts but they're custodial - they're the child's in name only, and only parents have withdrawal privileges. The tellers seemed confused every time I had to tell them that yes, I do have permission to withdraw my own money. Only one of my friends was allowed to use their bank account - for everyone else it was college savings only, and all spending money had to be cash. With my parents' permission, I was able to have a debit card (which processes in the payment network like any MasterCard but has no line of credit) attached to my checking account at 17.
mintplant 14y ago
> Conveniently ignored in all the stories about teenage whiz-kids who make money off internet businesses is that they are invariably committing federal felonies. Or, y'know, they've had their parents sign up for such things for them. That's what I did.
- superuser2 14y ago
  But they still agreed to a terms of service which prohibits sharing account credentials with the intent to break that agreement. (There could be a service that doesn't, but "no account sharing" seems to be boilerplate in ToS documents).
  - mintplant 14y ago
    Or they don't share account credentials. Many parents wouldn't let their children anywhere near something with their banking details in it.
    - superuser2 14y ago
      Then your parents must have been technically competent enough to work with Paypal's API or the App Store. Which is pretty rare.
      - s_baby 14y ago
        That's silly, am I breaking the TOS if I pay a contractor to setup the API for me?
        superuser2 14y ago
        Stripe's TOS appears to say nothing about sharing credentials, but PayPal explicitly disallows sharing passwords.
      - mintplant 14y ago
        I haven't used a developer account on either PayPal or the App Store. However, it's not that difficult to shoulder-surf and copy down an API key.
gamblor956 14y ago
That's false. Minors can enter into binding contracts, however contracts cannot be enforced against minors (but the minor can enforce the contract). Indeed, if this was not the case, there would be no child actors, singers, athletes, endorsers, etc. If you want to enforce a contract involving a minor against the minor, you need to get the parents to sign, because the enforcement action would proceed against the parent, not the child. It's unfortunate that your parents misunderstood basic contract law. Maybe if they had spoken to a lawyer, you could have avoided delaying your entrepreneurial ambitions.
- superuser2 14y ago
  >however contracts cannot be enforced against minors Which is why businesses don't like them, and put provisions in the contract to prohibit minors. My parents would have let me enter a contract had one been available, but because businesses knew they could never use the contract to their advantage (and against me), they wouldn't make one in the first place.
dkulchenko 14y ago
As someone who legally sold a business as a minor (still a minor today), you are mistaken. Take a look at this article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emancipation_of_minors http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emancipation_of_minors
- superuser2 14y ago
  Emancipation is a pretty drastic step that most families would never consider.
  - cynwoody 14y ago
    After both his parents had died, Howard Hughes got himself emancipated at age 19 (in 1924) so that he could take over the family business.
  - dkulchenko 14y ago
    Not really. I still live with my parents to this day - all it means is that I become an adult in the legal sense of the word and any contracts I sign are binding and nonvoidable.
    - superuser2 14y ago
      Don't you have to prove that you're economically independent? I think that's how it is in Wisconsin.
      - dkulchenko 14y ago
        They way it was explained to me is that I had to prove I was capable of providing for myself - not necessarily that I was receiving no financial support from my parents. The law in WA (http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=13.64&full=true#13.64.020 http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=13.64&full=...) reads "the petitioner [must indicate] that he or she has the ability to manage his or her financial affairs".

gambiting 14y ago

Hang on,so you cannot open a bank account before you are 18 in the US? In most EU countries you need to be 13 to open your own bank account.

superuser2 14y ago
Nope. You can have access to an account with your name on it, but it needs to be held jointly with an adult (typically a parent) and they have to accompany you to the bank and give permission to open it.
- gambiting 14y ago
  .....nothing is going to surprise me about the US anymore.
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
- jmj42 14y ago
  We just opened a checking account for our 17 y/o daughter. To be specific, the account must be opened in the minors name with a legal parent or guardian as a co-signatory. Either way, you're right. Minors can not, in the United States, enter into a legally binding contract. They can't even legally purchase a car as there is an implied or express purchase contract.
  - gamblor956 14y ago
    Minors can enter into a legally binding contract in the U.S. However, the seller in a purchase contract cannot enforce a contract against the minor if the minor does not pay (though the minor can enforce the contract against the seller if the minor pays but does not receive the purchased item, i.e., the car). The purpose of making the parent a co-signatory to the contract is to enforce the contract against the parent if necessary.
    - jmj42 14y ago
      Correct. Technically, the contract is voidable by the minor in most cases. There's exceptions, and state rules come into play. For instance, I believe, in CA if a minor misrepresents his/her age, then the contract can not be avoided. In IL, I believe, that's not the case, the contract can still be avoided.
  - superuser2 14y ago
    Yep. A Wisconsin auto title has a "parent signature" line - your parents must give you permission to hold the title for a car you purchase with your own money.
ryusage 14y ago
IIRC, when I got a bank account at 15 or so, my parents had to go with me to the bank and they had to also have their names on the account.
VLM 14y ago
A bank savings account has no liability, so I was able to open mine when I was 15 or so without any parental involvement. A bank checking account has all kinds of interesting legal issues WRT bounced checks, so I couldn't open my checking account until after my 18th birthday. Also no credit cards until I was 18. Nothing defines arbitrary and capricious like our financial and legal systems, so this could have changed last week, probably to "protect us from the terrorists" or "save the children".
- superuser2 14y ago
  At my bank, they won't touch you without a parent if you're under 18. A lot of 12-18 kids "have" savings accounts but they're custodial - they're the child's in name only, and only parents have withdrawal privileges. The tellers seemed confused every time I had to tell them that yes, I do have permission to withdraw my own money. Only one of my friends was allowed to use their bank account - for everyone else it was college savings only, and all spending money had to be cash. With my parents' permission, I was able to have a debit card (which processes in the payment network like any MasterCard but has no line of credit) attached to my checking account at 17.

mintplant 14y ago

> Conveniently ignored in all the stories about teenage whiz-kids who make money off internet businesses is that they are invariably committing federal felonies. Or, y'know, they've had their parents sign up for such things for them. That's what I did.

superuser2 14y ago
But they still agreed to a terms of service which prohibits sharing account credentials with the intent to break that agreement. (There could be a service that doesn't, but "no account sharing" seems to be boilerplate in ToS documents).
- mintplant 14y ago
  Or they don't share account credentials. Many parents wouldn't let their children anywhere near something with their banking details in it.
  - superuser2 14y ago
    Then your parents must have been technically competent enough to work with Paypal's API or the App Store. Which is pretty rare.
    - s_baby 14y ago
      That's silly, am I breaking the TOS if I pay a contractor to setup the API for me?
      - superuser2 14y ago
        Stripe's TOS appears to say nothing about sharing credentials, but PayPal explicitly disallows sharing passwords.
    - mintplant 14y ago
      I haven't used a developer account on either PayPal or the App Store. However, it's not that difficult to shoulder-surf and copy down an API key.

gamblor956 14y ago

That's false. Minors can enter into binding contracts, however contracts cannot be enforced against minors (but the minor can enforce the contract). Indeed, if this was not the case, there would be no child actors, singers, athletes, endorsers, etc. If you want to enforce a contract involving a minor against the minor, you need to get the parents to sign, because the enforcement action would proceed against the parent, not the child. It's unfortunate that your parents misunderstood basic contract law. Maybe if they had spoken to a lawyer, you could have avoided delaying your entrepreneurial ambitions.

superuser2 14y ago
>however contracts cannot be enforced against minors Which is why businesses don't like them, and put provisions in the contract to prohibit minors. My parents would have let me enter a contract had one been available, but because businesses knew they could never use the contract to their advantage (and against me), they wouldn't make one in the first place.

dkulchenko 14y ago

As someone who legally sold a business as a minor (still a minor today), you are mistaken. Take a look at this article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emancipation_of_minors http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emancipation_of_minors

superuser2 14y ago
Emancipation is a pretty drastic step that most families would never consider.
- cynwoody 14y ago
  After both his parents had died, Howard Hughes got himself emancipated at age 19 (in 1924) so that he could take over the family business.
- dkulchenko 14y ago
  Not really. I still live with my parents to this day - all it means is that I become an adult in the legal sense of the word and any contracts I sign are binding and nonvoidable.
  - superuser2 14y ago
    Don't you have to prove that you're economically independent? I think that's how it is in Wisconsin.
    - dkulchenko 14y ago
      They way it was explained to me is that I had to prove I was capable of providing for myself - not necessarily that I was receiving no financial support from my parents. The law in WA (http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=13.64&full=true#13.64.020 http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=13.64&full=...) reads "the petitioner [must indicate] that he or she has the ability to manage his or her financial affairs".