9 ms·

Designer gets accused of stealing his own work and billed $18,000

206 points by minus 17y ago

ryan-allen 17y ago
This is terrible, the plaintiff's lawyer contacting his clients to inform that work he has done, is allegedly infringing copyright... I hope he counter-sues and takes their whole law firm down, what a crock.
- Brushfire 17y ago
  I'm with you. The problem with this is the separation... He could likely be tied up in litigation over this for YEARS, all while his business is now losing revenue. Hopefully he has some rich relatives he can call on to bankroll his legal issues. Thats the downside of being in this position, is that you can get ruined before you even finish the first legal battle.
patio11 17y ago
I think a certain law firm is going to get a very expensive lesson in the meaning of "tortious interference". God, this is such a canonical example of it you might as well print it in the freaking dictionary next to the definition.
- mechanical_fish 17y ago
  The definition: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tortious_interference http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tortious_interference That should save everyone who reads this a few clicks.
- mattmaroon 17y ago
  Yeah, in my totally unprofessional opinion, if he can prove those are his originally there's a pretty compelling countersuit there. This sort of thing is why we have those.
- vaksel 17y ago
  based on the way the guy typed, I'd bet he'd let them get away with it, whenever they email him saying that they decided that he is right
deleted 17y ago
[deleted]
tomsaffell 17y ago
This does seem terrible. Can anyone suggest a way that we can help this guy? (assuming this can be validated - though I'm not suggesting it's not true)
- patio11 17y ago
  Do nothing. He doesn't need an Internet cheering section. He needs a lawyer, and an extraordinarily straightforward civil suit. Anything a net groundswell could possibly accomplish is only going to complicate the very simple "They falsely alleged copyright over my works. They ignored my reasonable attempts to correct their misunderstanding. They then contacted my clients and called me a thief. I have suffered demonstrable damage to my business and professional reputation as a result. This behavior is tortious." narrative his lawyer will be telling the court.
  - feverishaaron 17y ago
    That, and be wary of using any work from that stock art website, as their may be... uh... "usage rights complications".
- msie 17y ago
  A legal fund should be started for him and a badge for contributing to that fund should be prominently displayed on his blog.
  - tertius 17y ago
    You can find that right here - http://www.fundable.com/groupactions/groupaction.2009-04-06.6402295564 http://www.fundable.com/groupactions/groupaction.2009-04-06....
mechanical_fish 17y ago
So the big question is: I've invented a logo. Where do I submit it, along with my identifying information, in order to get a certification (backed up by something that will hold up in court, like a notary's signature) that I uploaded and claimed it on a specific date? One obvious answer is "The US Copyright Office": http://www.copyright.gov/eco/index.html http://www.copyright.gov/eco/index.html But that's $35 per registration. Seems like one of those online entrepreneurs I keep hearing about might be able to offer a cheaper service, via the web, to every designer in the world. Of course, a lawyer may tell me that this is useless. Or it might be that the correct answer is "Flickr", and to do more is overkill.
- quellhorst 17y ago
  Just upload it to flickr, they should store the uploaded date.
- ja2ke 17y ago
  I imagine it would be his clients who copyright their logos, not him. It's a rare day that the designer has any claim of ownership over a logo s/he does on contract.
- feverishaaron 17y ago
  If he has a work for hire relationship with his clients (pretty common for logo work), it is up to them to submit the logo for copyright, unless he chooses to submit it on their behalf as part of his services.
- joshwa 17y ago
  The good news is that a single registration fee can cover an entire collection of unpublished works, as long as they are by the same author: http://www.copyright.gov/eco/faq.html#eCO_2.3 http://www.copyright.gov/eco/faq.html#eCO_2.3
- thinkcomp 17y ago
  Logos are not copyrightable. You would trademark a logo.
gscott 17y ago
In this case I would suggest creating a "sucks" website for the company in question to shame them. It has been upheld by the court system as a 100% legal thing to do... (for examples see paypalsucks.com and riaasucks.com)
- huhtenberg 17y ago
  This is a very bad advice for a number of reasons. As others pointed out any sort of quirky publicity stunts will only complicate matters for the designer should the case (in whatever form) end up in court.
- jcl 17y ago
  Probably not a good idea. Already, his problem comes up as the second (and several subsequent) Google results for "stockart".
huhtenberg 17y ago
Back in 2002 Stockart was actively soliciting copyright infringement leads: ... All we need is for you to give us enough information to locate the communication which has the illustration(s) used out of copyright, and we will take it from there. In return, we will send you 10% of ANY settlement moneys we recover. This could amount to thousands of dollars for you AND the illustrators, by simply doing what is right! http://whatdoiknow.org/archives/000097.shtml http://whatdoiknow.org/archives/000097.shtml Also, Jon (the designer) said that there was at least one other designer that had gave into their extortion scheme, and that he would've given in too if not for the community support. To me this puts the whole situation in a completely different light. It makes it seem as if the copyright "enforcement" is a part of StockArts business plan.
zepolen 17y ago
This sort of mirrors my question about the legality of a TOS on the internet: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=548002 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=548002 With no canonical examples of 'who was first', and bytes being bytes and therefore editable (ie. timestamps on files count for nothing whatsoever), it's impossible without some sort of trusted 3rd party in which to vouch for this guys story. Even if the author has paper sketches, they in turn mean nothing as there is no proof as to /when/ they were created.
- jcl 17y ago
  True, ownership of the preliminary work can be faked. However, without intimate knowledge of file formats and graphics algorithms it would be challenging to, for example, come up with an Illustrator vector file that rasterizes byte-for-byte to the scaled-down logo images copied from his portfolio. (assuming the thieves copied the graphics directly and didn't think to make their own vector file first...) It may even be enough for him to have a credible high-res, layer-separated Photoshop file; someone who does not have the skills to produce their own original artwork probably also lacks the skills to convincingly fake a high-res version of someone else's artwork. (Not sure if this has held in court, but I'd bet it has come up before.)
dkokelley 17y ago
If the images are infact his then he has an easy counter-suit for copyright infringement. If StockArt is found to have sold images that were stolen then they owe the original artist the value of what they've sold the art for. Come to think of it, this is pretty risky for StockArt. They are betting quite a lot that they win. If they don't win, they lose - big time. They may end up wishing they had never brought it up to Jon.
- flatline 17y ago
  The problem with this is the exorbitant costs in time and money to bring a suit for something like this. StockArt can afford to litigate (from the sound if it, they do this repeatedly and can just shell out to a lawfirm), this designer probably cannot. There's a kernel of truth to the saying that the only ones who profit from lawsuits are the lawyers.
cnlwsu 17y ago
seems like the guy created a website for donating to the legal funds (also in comment thread on jonengle.com) http://www.fundable.com/groupactions/groupaction.2009-04-06.6402295564 http://www.fundable.com/groupactions/groupaction.2009-04-06....
themanual 17y ago
Site is down now. Try accessing the page from Google cache. http://74.125.77.132/search?q=cache:http://www.jonengle.com/2009/04/accused/ http://74.125.77.132/search?q=cache:http://www.jonengle.com/...
RiderOfGiraffes 17y ago
Currently I'm getting this: Service Temporarily Unavailable The server is temporarily unable to service your request due to maintenance downtime or capacity problems. Please try again later. Additionally, a 503 Service Temporarily Unavailable error was encountered while trying to use an ErrorDocument to handle the request. I wonder if that's because a law firm has complained about the complaint, or if this is proving popular.
- jupiter 17y ago
  No downtime or capacity problems at Google: http://209.85.129.132/search?q=cache:4xeUCXpV_BcJ:www.jonengle.com/2009/04/accused/+jonengle.com&cd=2&hl=de&ct=clnk&gl=de http://209.85.129.132/search?q=cache:4xeUCXpV_BcJ:www.joneng...
ynniv 17y ago
There is a group of state-wide organizations called the Volunteer Lawyers for the Arts that help artists with issues like these. Unfortunately they do not have a New Mexico chapter, but there is a Colorado chapter if Jon wanted to counter sue in StockArt's home state. [ http://www.vlany.org/resources/vladirectory.php http://www.vlany.org/resources/vladirectory.php ]
Adam503 17y ago
Looks like throwing bill collectors and lawyers at people that don't owe money, or fully paid their bills is the big growth industry right now. Between this report, and all the reports I've seen of AFNI try to collect (and harrassing if they refuse to pay) paid Verizon accounts... http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2009/3/31/6553/40643 http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2009/3/31/6553/40643 http://www.ripoffreport.com/reports/0/258/RipOff0258146.htm http://www.ripoffreport.com/reports/0/258/RipOff0258146.htm It appears the way Corporate America's new growth industry is demanding people pay bills that are already paid, or never owed in the first place, and harrassing them if they refuse.
voidpointer 17y ago
There are a few interesting links to the artwork that is obviously showing up in other designer's work on StockArt.com and Jon Engle's work at reddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/reddit.com/comments/8ac0q/designer_gets_accused_of_stealing_his_own_work/c08p5i7 http://www.reddit.com/r/reddit.com/comments/8ac0q/designer_g... It's not clear who came up with what first. However, the other designers submissions seem to be consistent with their general style while there is not so much consistency in Jon's style. There are no upload dates though on the StockArt.com stuff. This might be fishy...
- voidpointer 17y ago
  There is a bit more background on "the other side" of this story with some more examples: http://www.thelogofactory.com/logo_blog/index.php/stock-logos-copyright-twitter/ http://www.thelogofactory.com/logo_blog/index.php/stock-logo...

206 points by minus 17y ago

This is terrible, the plaintiff's lawyer contacting his clients to inform that work he has done, is allegedly infringing copyright... I hope he counter-sues and takes their whole law firm down, what a crock.

Brushfire 17y ago
I'm with you. The problem with this is the separation... He could likely be tied up in litigation over this for YEARS, all while his business is now losing revenue. Hopefully he has some rich relatives he can call on to bankroll his legal issues. Thats the downside of being in this position, is that you can get ruined before you even finish the first legal battle.

patio11 17y ago

I think a certain law firm is going to get a very expensive lesson in the meaning of "tortious interference". God, this is such a canonical example of it you might as well print it in the freaking dictionary next to the definition.

mechanical_fish 17y ago
The definition: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tortious_interference http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tortious_interference That should save everyone who reads this a few clicks.
mattmaroon 17y ago
Yeah, in my totally unprofessional opinion, if he can prove those are his originally there's a pretty compelling countersuit there. This sort of thing is why we have those.
vaksel 17y ago
based on the way the guy typed, I'd bet he'd let them get away with it, whenever they email him saying that they decided that he is right

deleted 17y ago

[deleted]

tomsaffell 17y ago

This does seem terrible. Can anyone suggest a way that we can help this guy? (assuming this can be validated - though I'm not suggesting it's not true)

patio11 17y ago
Do nothing. He doesn't need an Internet cheering section. He needs a lawyer, and an extraordinarily straightforward civil suit. Anything a net groundswell could possibly accomplish is only going to complicate the very simple "They falsely alleged copyright over my works. They ignored my reasonable attempts to correct their misunderstanding. They then contacted my clients and called me a thief. I have suffered demonstrable damage to my business and professional reputation as a result. This behavior is tortious." narrative his lawyer will be telling the court.
- feverishaaron 17y ago
  That, and be wary of using any work from that stock art website, as their may be... uh... "usage rights complications".
msie 17y ago
A legal fund should be started for him and a badge for contributing to that fund should be prominently displayed on his blog.
- tertius 17y ago
  You can find that right here - http://www.fundable.com/groupactions/groupaction.2009-04-06.6402295564 http://www.fundable.com/groupactions/groupaction.2009-04-06....

mechanical_fish 17y ago

So the big question is: I've invented a logo. Where do I submit it, along with my identifying information, in order to get a certification (backed up by something that will hold up in court, like a notary's signature) that I uploaded and claimed it on a specific date? One obvious answer is "The US Copyright Office": http://www.copyright.gov/eco/index.html http://www.copyright.gov/eco/index.html But that's $35 per registration. Seems like one of those online entrepreneurs I keep hearing about might be able to offer a cheaper service, via the web, to every designer in the world. Of course, a lawyer may tell me that this is useless. Or it might be that the correct answer is "Flickr", and to do more is overkill.

quellhorst 17y ago
Just upload it to flickr, they should store the uploaded date.
ja2ke 17y ago
I imagine it would be his clients who copyright their logos, not him. It's a rare day that the designer has any claim of ownership over a logo s/he does on contract.
feverishaaron 17y ago
If he has a work for hire relationship with his clients (pretty common for logo work), it is up to them to submit the logo for copyright, unless he chooses to submit it on their behalf as part of his services.
joshwa 17y ago
The good news is that a single registration fee can cover an entire collection of unpublished works, as long as they are by the same author: http://www.copyright.gov/eco/faq.html#eCO_2.3 http://www.copyright.gov/eco/faq.html#eCO_2.3
thinkcomp 17y ago
Logos are not copyrightable. You would trademark a logo.

gscott 17y ago

In this case I would suggest creating a "sucks" website for the company in question to shame them. It has been upheld by the court system as a 100% legal thing to do... (for examples see paypalsucks.com and riaasucks.com)

huhtenberg 17y ago
This is a very bad advice for a number of reasons. As others pointed out any sort of quirky publicity stunts will only complicate matters for the designer should the case (in whatever form) end up in court.
jcl 17y ago
Probably not a good idea. Already, his problem comes up as the second (and several subsequent) Google results for "stockart".

huhtenberg 17y ago

Back in 2002 Stockart was actively soliciting copyright infringement leads: ... All we need is for you to give us enough information to locate the communication which has the illustration(s) used out of copyright, and we will take it from there. In return, we will send you 10% of ANY settlement moneys we recover. This could amount to thousands of dollars for you AND the illustrators, by simply doing what is right! http://whatdoiknow.org/archives/000097.shtml http://whatdoiknow.org/archives/000097.shtml Also, Jon (the designer) said that there was at least one other designer that had gave into their extortion scheme, and that he would've given in too if not for the community support. To me this puts the whole situation in a completely different light. It makes it seem as if the copyright "enforcement" is a part of StockArts business plan.

zepolen 17y ago

This sort of mirrors my question about the legality of a TOS on the internet: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=548002 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=548002 With no canonical examples of 'who was first', and bytes being bytes and therefore editable (ie. timestamps on files count for nothing whatsoever), it's impossible without some sort of trusted 3rd party in which to vouch for this guys story. Even if the author has paper sketches, they in turn mean nothing as there is no proof as to /when/ they were created.

jcl 17y ago
True, ownership of the preliminary work can be faked. However, without intimate knowledge of file formats and graphics algorithms it would be challenging to, for example, come up with an Illustrator vector file that rasterizes byte-for-byte to the scaled-down logo images copied from his portfolio. (assuming the thieves copied the graphics directly and didn't think to make their own vector file first...) It may even be enough for him to have a credible high-res, layer-separated Photoshop file; someone who does not have the skills to produce their own original artwork probably also lacks the skills to convincingly fake a high-res version of someone else's artwork. (Not sure if this has held in court, but I'd bet it has come up before.)

dkokelley 17y ago

If the images are infact his then he has an easy counter-suit for copyright infringement. If StockArt is found to have sold images that were stolen then they owe the original artist the value of what they've sold the art for. Come to think of it, this is pretty risky for StockArt. They are betting quite a lot that they win. If they don't win, they lose - big time. They may end up wishing they had never brought it up to Jon.

flatline 17y ago
The problem with this is the exorbitant costs in time and money to bring a suit for something like this. StockArt can afford to litigate (from the sound if it, they do this repeatedly and can just shell out to a lawfirm), this designer probably cannot. There's a kernel of truth to the saying that the only ones who profit from lawsuits are the lawyers.

cnlwsu 17y ago

seems like the guy created a website for donating to the legal funds (also in comment thread on jonengle.com) http://www.fundable.com/groupactions/groupaction.2009-04-06.6402295564 http://www.fundable.com/groupactions/groupaction.2009-04-06....

themanual 17y ago

Site is down now. Try accessing the page from Google cache. http://74.125.77.132/search?q=cache:http://www.jonengle.com/2009/04/accused/ http://74.125.77.132/search?q=cache:http://www.jonengle.com/...

RiderOfGiraffes 17y ago

Currently I'm getting this: Service Temporarily Unavailable The server is temporarily unable to service your request due to maintenance downtime or capacity problems. Please try again later. Additionally, a 503 Service Temporarily Unavailable error was encountered while trying to use an ErrorDocument to handle the request. I wonder if that's because a law firm has complained about the complaint, or if this is proving popular.

jupiter 17y ago
No downtime or capacity problems at Google: http://209.85.129.132/search?q=cache:4xeUCXpV_BcJ:www.jonengle.com/2009/04/accused/+jonengle.com&cd=2&hl=de&ct=clnk&gl=de http://209.85.129.132/search?q=cache:4xeUCXpV_BcJ:www.joneng...

ynniv 17y ago

There is a group of state-wide organizations called the Volunteer Lawyers for the Arts that help artists with issues like these. Unfortunately they do not have a New Mexico chapter, but there is a Colorado chapter if Jon wanted to counter sue in StockArt's home state. [ http://www.vlany.org/resources/vladirectory.php http://www.vlany.org/resources/vladirectory.php ]

Adam503 17y ago

Looks like throwing bill collectors and lawyers at people that don't owe money, or fully paid their bills is the big growth industry right now. Between this report, and all the reports I've seen of AFNI try to collect (and harrassing if they refuse to pay) paid Verizon accounts... http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2009/3/31/6553/40643 http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2009/3/31/6553/40643 http://www.ripoffreport.com/reports/0/258/RipOff0258146.htm http://www.ripoffreport.com/reports/0/258/RipOff0258146.htm It appears the way Corporate America's new growth industry is demanding people pay bills that are already paid, or never owed in the first place, and harrassing them if they refuse.

voidpointer 17y ago

There are a few interesting links to the artwork that is obviously showing up in other designer's work on StockArt.com and Jon Engle's work at reddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/reddit.com/comments/8ac0q/designer_gets_accused_of_stealing_his_own_work/c08p5i7 http://www.reddit.com/r/reddit.com/comments/8ac0q/designer_g... It's not clear who came up with what first. However, the other designers submissions seem to be consistent with their general style while there is not so much consistency in Jon's style. There are no upload dates though on the StockArt.com stuff. This might be fishy...

voidpointer 17y ago
There is a bit more background on "the other side" of this story with some more examples: http://www.thelogofactory.com/logo_blog/index.php/stock-logos-copyright-twitter/ http://www.thelogofactory.com/logo_blog/index.php/stock-logo...