4 ms·

For London I strongly disagree. When start-ups, profitable ones, are offering £35k + bonus + stock options (worth £0), for senior developers, in Central London

by Swannie 14y ago

For London I strongly disagree. When start-ups, profitable ones, are offering £35k + bonus + stock options (worth £0), for senior developers, in Central London, there's not a talent shortage. Similarly skilled developers are getting £35k+ & bonus outside of London, where the cost of commuting/living is significantly cheaper, in established companies with full benefits packages, that don't expect them to work 50 hour weeks. Inside London, those devs who are working in finance are getting paid £45k+, big bonus, gym, laundry, etc. thrown in, with the same workload expectation. Experienced (and good) Senior iOS developers in London are regularly being offered less than £40k. No surprise many talented staff have left London, for equivalent salaries, less stress and cheaper cost of living (especially as they hit the age where kids appear in the picture). No surprises many younger devs look at the £25k starting salary in London, where transport and rent will cost them £1000/month, vs. £25k out of London, where it will be more like £500/mo, and decide that London is not worth losing £6k/yr after tax.

octo_t 14y ago
As someone who lives and has worked in London this is really incorrect. All of the people that I know who work in London (not just in banks) are earning at least £35k+, almost always more than that. These are newly graduated developers, with lots of room for advancement. Conversely I know very few developers outside of London who are earning close to £35k, outside of London its much more likely to be research (ARM etc) and they tend to pay ~£28k
- Swannie 14y ago
  So a post based on "who you know". Most grad jobs in London will top out at £30k. http://www.technojobs.co.uk/search.phtml/graduate-developer/searchfield/locationLondon/radius/salary http://www.technojobs.co.uk/search.phtml/graduate-developer/... Those that are higher are not real "junior" jobs - there's one that advertises "up to £50k", but then asks for 3-5 years experience. 5 years good experience puts you at the top end of mid-level. There are a few finance jobs, that are looking for junior quant. developers. Yes, they are advertising above £30k. But they don't make up the bulk of the jobs on offer. (And yes, I have a lot of anecdotal evidence too, for outside and inside London, having spent my early years working for a company with offices in Bath/Bristol/Reading, and the obligatory London "HQ").
rjknight 14y ago
That sounds wrong to me. I've seen lead/senior JS devs on £85k (~$130k) in London and mid-level generic PHP/Django/Rails developers seem to start in the mid-40s, with senior devs getting 60-70k. That's before you start looking at contractor rates...
- Swannie 14y ago
  Numbers I see for "generic PHP" rarely go above 40... http://www.technojobs.co.uk/search.phtml/php/searchfield/locationLondon/radius/salary0 http://www.technojobs.co.uk/search.phtml/php/searchfield/loc... There are a few above 40, but they don't sound mid-level/generic.
SandB0x 14y ago
What regions outside London are you referring to? Genuinely interested.
- Swannie 14y ago
  Particularly, Bristol and Bath, Oxford, Reading, Manchester/Warrington.
manku_timma 14y ago
This doesnt sound right to me. I know senior dev's in London getting paid at least double of that (and in some cases even more). It is not in the NY or Bay area range, but it's not £35k either.
- Swannie 14y ago
  Again, I know senior developers that were pulling down £65k and generous bonuses. I know software architects with 15 years experience who are earning about the same too. But to me, they are the outliers, of what is a market that is generally not paying much of a premium above outside London salaries (I knew some architects on £70k, waaaay outside of London, and many seniors on £50k + bonus). And I didn't want to make the comparison, but yeah, these numbers are terrible compared to what you will find in the major USA cities.
ig1 14y ago
As it happens I also used to run a developer recruitment startup (CoderStack) in London, so I'm intimately familiar with the market. While there are certainly companies trying to hire iOS developers at 40k, there are also companies trying to hire iOS developers on 80k+ and iOS contractors on day rates of £500/day. What you're probably seeing is selection bias. That is the crappy jobs (i.e. low pay) stay on the market far longer than good jobs. Hence you end up thinking that crappy jobs represent a large proportion of the job market than they actually do simply because they stay around longer.
- Swannie 14y ago
  You are right, I'm almost certainly exhibiting selection bias. As we all know, the best jobs don't even go on the wider market, such as jobs sites, but are filled by word of mouth referrals, or conversations at events. But if I go and search: http://www.technojobs.co.uk/search.phtml?page=2&row_offset=10&keywords=senior%20developer&salary=0&jobtype=all&postedwithin=all http://www.technojobs.co.uk/search.phtml?page=2&row_offs... You will see most senior dev roles advertised with a range, that seems to average out about £45k. That's for the whole country, and London seems no different. Personal experience with London based recruiters was that despite jobs advertising £60k, the number that the recruiter had from the client was actually lower. When asked about the requirements for getting the top end of the pay scale, "Well, they really only want to pay low 40's", was something I heard time and time again, and caused me to not apply, time and time again. Crappy jobs? Maybe. EDIT: Also, I've seen an expensive corporate salary survey (shh, don't tell HR), and whilst London mid-senior people have seen a good bump to their salary in the last 2-3 years, the averages there were approx: junior ~£28k, mid-level ~£36k, senior ~£47k, architect ~£60k, dev lead ~£72k).
anothermouse 14y ago
"Inside London, those devs who are working in finance are getting paid £45k+, big bonus..." As someone working in finance in London, this seems way too low. I'm on 97K and bonus has been 50% for the last 4 years. Contracted before and made more after tax. I can't believe that startups hope to attract talent with 35K + bonus? But I also doubt you're right about 45K jobs in finance being anything but entry level. http://www.itjobswatch.co.uk/jobs/london/c++%20developer.do http://www.itjobswatch.co.uk/jobs/london/c++%20developer.do (me? c++, perl, python, unix, front office, could price an option with Hull open, or an IRS, but not going to try anything like a Vol swap without Quant Assistance. There, another vague datapoint).

by Swannie 14y ago

octo_t 14y ago

As someone who lives and has worked in London this is really incorrect. All of the people that I know who work in London (not just in banks) are earning at least £35k+, almost always more than that. These are newly graduated developers, with lots of room for advancement. Conversely I know very few developers outside of London who are earning close to £35k, outside of London its much more likely to be research (ARM etc) and they tend to pay ~£28k

Swannie 14y ago
So a post based on "who you know". Most grad jobs in London will top out at £30k. http://www.technojobs.co.uk/search.phtml/graduate-developer/searchfield/locationLondon/radius/salary http://www.technojobs.co.uk/search.phtml/graduate-developer/... Those that are higher are not real "junior" jobs - there's one that advertises "up to £50k", but then asks for 3-5 years experience. 5 years good experience puts you at the top end of mid-level. There are a few finance jobs, that are looking for junior quant. developers. Yes, they are advertising above £30k. But they don't make up the bulk of the jobs on offer. (And yes, I have a lot of anecdotal evidence too, for outside and inside London, having spent my early years working for a company with offices in Bath/Bristol/Reading, and the obligatory London "HQ").

rjknight 14y ago

That sounds wrong to me. I've seen lead/senior JS devs on £85k (~$130k) in London and mid-level generic PHP/Django/Rails developers seem to start in the mid-40s, with senior devs getting 60-70k. That's before you start looking at contractor rates...

Swannie 14y ago
Numbers I see for "generic PHP" rarely go above 40... http://www.technojobs.co.uk/search.phtml/php/searchfield/locationLondon/radius/salary0 http://www.technojobs.co.uk/search.phtml/php/searchfield/loc... There are a few above 40, but they don't sound mid-level/generic.

SandB0x 14y ago

What regions outside London are you referring to? Genuinely interested.

Swannie 14y ago
Particularly, Bristol and Bath, Oxford, Reading, Manchester/Warrington.

manku_timma 14y ago

This doesnt sound right to me. I know senior dev's in London getting paid at least double of that (and in some cases even more). It is not in the NY or Bay area range, but it's not £35k either.

Swannie 14y ago
Again, I know senior developers that were pulling down £65k and generous bonuses. I know software architects with 15 years experience who are earning about the same too. But to me, they are the outliers, of what is a market that is generally not paying much of a premium above outside London salaries (I knew some architects on £70k, waaaay outside of London, and many seniors on £50k + bonus). And I didn't want to make the comparison, but yeah, these numbers are terrible compared to what you will find in the major USA cities.

ig1 14y ago

As it happens I also used to run a developer recruitment startup (CoderStack) in London, so I'm intimately familiar with the market. While there are certainly companies trying to hire iOS developers at 40k, there are also companies trying to hire iOS developers on 80k+ and iOS contractors on day rates of £500/day. What you're probably seeing is selection bias. That is the crappy jobs (i.e. low pay) stay on the market far longer than good jobs. Hence you end up thinking that crappy jobs represent a large proportion of the job market than they actually do simply because they stay around longer.

Swannie 14y ago
You are right, I'm almost certainly exhibiting selection bias. As we all know, the best jobs don't even go on the wider market, such as jobs sites, but are filled by word of mouth referrals, or conversations at events. But if I go and search: http://www.technojobs.co.uk/search.phtml?page=2&row_offset=10&keywords=senior%20developer&salary=0&jobtype=all&postedwithin=all http://www.technojobs.co.uk/search.phtml?page=2&row_offs... You will see most senior dev roles advertised with a range, that seems to average out about £45k. That's for the whole country, and London seems no different. Personal experience with London based recruiters was that despite jobs advertising £60k, the number that the recruiter had from the client was actually lower. When asked about the requirements for getting the top end of the pay scale, "Well, they really only want to pay low 40's", was something I heard time and time again, and caused me to not apply, time and time again. Crappy jobs? Maybe. EDIT: Also, I've seen an expensive corporate salary survey (shh, don't tell HR), and whilst London mid-senior people have seen a good bump to their salary in the last 2-3 years, the averages there were approx: junior ~£28k, mid-level ~£36k, senior ~£47k, architect ~£60k, dev lead ~£72k).

anothermouse 14y ago

"Inside London, those devs who are working in finance are getting paid £45k+, big bonus..." As someone working in finance in London, this seems way too low. I'm on 97K and bonus has been 50% for the last 4 years. Contracted before and made more after tax. I can't believe that startups hope to attract talent with 35K + bonus? But I also doubt you're right about 45K jobs in finance being anything but entry level. http://www.itjobswatch.co.uk/jobs/london/c++%20developer.do http://www.itjobswatch.co.uk/jobs/london/c++%20developer.do (me? c++, perl, python, unix, front office, could price an option with Hull open, or an IRS, but not going to try anything like a Vol swap without Quant Assistance. There, another vague datapoint).