11 ms·

This stuff aggravates me. My taxes aren't abnormally complex (single, one state, very few deductions, one w-2), but I get several 1099s for my investments and e

by rm999 14y ago

This stuff aggravates me. My taxes aren't abnormally complex (single, one state, very few deductions, one w-2), but I get several 1099s for my investments and end up spending an hour filling them in manually, importing CSV files from my brokerages, and double checking the numbers. What annoys me is all the forms clearly state the IRS has also been sent this information; I'm literally filling out forms in a slow, error-prone way just so the IRS can run a simple == check to make sure I entered them in correctly. I feel like it's something my third grade teacher would force us to do to kill time. I don't care about the 30 dollars turbotax charges me, I'll send 30 dollars straight to the CEO or promise to burn it. What bothers me is that I've been forced to do manual data entry - a pet peeve of mine as a programmer - because the government has been lobbied specifically to be less efficient.

MatthewPhillips 14y ago
The government is not bad at code because of lobbying, they're bad at code because of fluctuating budgets, low salaries, and ridiculous processes.
- clarkevans 14y ago
  Yet, Government programs have excellent customer service as compared to corporate equivalents. I use one example: student loan servicing. My loans were serviced by the largest company in the business for years, it was pure torture. When the department of education offered to assume the loans, I was happy to have the pain gone. They have been absolutely lovely to work with, clear, transparent and... helpful.
  - theorique 14y ago
    some government programs have excellent customer service as compared to some corporate equivalents I am sure we could find counterexamples here.
    - MatthewPhillips 14y ago
      Ever been to the DMV?
      - alistairSH 14y ago
        Yes. In the last decade or so, the Virginia DMV has been painless for typical tasks. Most common tasks can be performed online - registration, license renewal, even obtaining titles after paying off loans (assuming the dealer/bank held the title electronically). The few times I've had to show up in person, I've been in and out in 30 minutes or less.
      - imjared 14y ago
        DMV in the District had a pretty long line but was fine otherwise. The biggest problem I saw was people who had not read the provided information/required materials in advance of coming then started arguing or pleading their case.
        axusgrad 14y ago
        You get problems when the employees cannot interpret the rules correctly, though. For example, proof of residency can be utility bill from the last 60 days, OR a DC property tax bill, and they reject a current DC property tax bill that wasn't issued in the last 60 days.
      - jimmaswell 14y ago
        I've been to the DMV to get an ID and it wasn't bad at all. The worst I've seen happen to other people is a long line. What are the big problems people apparently have with the DMV all the time? I'm from NY if that makes a difference.
        mjn 14y ago
        Most Texas DMVs are hugely understaffed, I assume deliberately because they don't want to fund more staff, so the wait is generally long, like 2-3 hours long, and the facilities you're waiting in are old and poorly maintained. However, that's pretty TX-specific; TX generally underprovisions government services. The CA DMV is much nicer, and you can even book a specific time online!
- navait 14y ago
  The IRS was recruiting for interns at my university recently, who could eventually become full time workers. However, I found that at best I could enter as a GS-9, and those were positions with 5 years of expirience. The best salary I could get from that was $53,000 in NYC. Even the lowest offers my friends were getting were $60k in a low-cost area. If the government was able to fund it's IT operations at market rates, or pay outside the GS we'd all be much better off. I don't know about the federal level but my state relies on outside contractors to make web applcations, who mostly do a half-assed job and disappear when maintenance becomes a problem.
  - cbs 14y ago
    The government doesn't do anything at market rates. They employ below market rates, and contract external companies above market rates. This is (unfortunately) by design.
    - reverend_gonzo 14y ago
      For what its worth, government jobs are also a bit more secure and generally provide pensions and other benefits. Whether those benefits are worth a decreased salary depends on the individual.
      - jdotjdot 14y ago
        Unfortunately, the pensions are largely gone the way of life 401(k)s, and with the furloughs that have been coming due to Congressional instability, those things are not really that true anymore.
    - adamc 14y ago
      Why do you say "by design"? Whose design?
      - niggler 14y ago
        A certain group of politicians want to replace all government functions with private contractors, and most of those are captured by various lobbying groups representing said contractors.
- JPKab 14y ago
  The government doesn't pay low salaries to coders, (remember, all they really need are CRUD apps. This isn't rocket science), its just HORRIBLE at hiring. Rather than leaving any hiring decision to anyone who knows the issue at hand, hiring is done based on a process which is optimized to be legally unimpeachable. When government succeeds, nobody gets credit, but when they get sued, its cover your ass time. This is why ALL government processes, including hiring, are first and foremost about CYA.
  - Periodic 14y ago
    I've been able to witness some of this in the State of California. This system is designed to try to prevent the government from overspending on software. They can always point to a public RFP and open bids if anyone objects. However, it is not designed to produce the best value for the state. First the RFP has to be written, which itself is a very political process and may have been initiated by a contractor/sales-person convincing someone they need the software or process in question. They'll often help write the RFP if you let them. These RFPs are often signed off on by non-technical people who are not qualified to really understand the technical details. Then the state has to get multiple bids. Sometimes the RFP is written so specifically that many options are excluded. For example, I've seen an RFP that required the state pay for the software. The way it was worded excluded an OSS contracting company from providing support for a Linux solution. A more public example is the LA School District looking for computers for their students. They are required to support both a keyboard and touch, which is prime market for Windows Surface devices. It could theoretically go to something like an iPad, but it makes it very hard for laptop makers to compete. Finally the state is required to take the lowest bid that meets the requirements of the RFP. To reject a bid the state has to show that it does not meet the requirements. They can't simply take something that is better value, they have to take the cheapest solution that meets the minimum requirements.
noonespecial 14y ago
You forgot the part about when == is != they get to charge you a giant penalty. That's no accident.
- pdubs 14y ago
  Only if it's malicious or intentional. A mistake will be picked up and you'll get a form a year or two later asking you to accept or challenge proposed corrections. If less tax was paid than required you have to pay that + interest...which really isn't that unreasonable. I'm not saying the whole system isn't needlessly complex, but don't make it out like the IRS is actively out to get you.
  - pc86 14y ago
    My return for 2008 or 09 was a mess. I had one 1099 I never received from a former employer I'm convinced was trying to screw me, I had one 1099 sent to a former address and a debt forgiveness 1099 from a credit card charge off. I got a packet from the IRS listing the adjustments, what they proposed I owed and very clear and detailed instructions on how to respond to each of the three changes. Incredibly easy to resolve the entire ordeal within weeks, including full payment. I have no doubt that if the IRS truly made it a policy to extract as much money from everyone as they could, they would have just audited me and nit picked every math error ad nauseum until I was drowning in penalties and interest. This is part of why I have a CPA now.
    - pdubs 14y ago
      I challenged the adjustments to one of my returns and the most difficult part for me was finding a damn fax machine while I was on hold with a very helpful woman at the IRS. In the end they admitted they made a mistake (to their credit, an understandable one) in saying that I made a mistake and I lost a total of maybe an hour or two of my time.
      - pc86 14y ago
        I'm sure if I didn't have three separate things to verify and pay or challenge it would have been quicker :) I ended up challenging one of the three and I spent more time writing that letter and including supporting documentation than anything else.
smsm42 14y ago
Turbotax has data import for some of the major payroll systems. However, making this work with IRS data directly, is a secure way, it not a trivial task and this task has to be performed by the IRS, not Intuit. Note that this is not what Intuit lobbied against - it's preparing the whole return (which is non-trivial, especially given law changes and thousands of options that exist) against just exporting data. I don't think Intuit would be opposed to the latter, but they are to the former.
- Retric 14y ago
  'especially given law changes and thousands of options that exist' The IRS needs to have this logic and data import anyway to be able to verify the return. So, all they really need to do is process everything by say March 15, and allow someone to see the data on a website and click (Accept).
  - smsm42 14y ago
    I don't think IRS has all the data in one place. E.g. do they have my local property taxes? Do they have record of mileage that I could deduct for charity purposes? Do they have a value of goods I donated to charity? Hypothetical examples, there can be a lot more options, many of them not so easy for them to verify. That's why they audit - then if I am audited, I'd have to prove them it's true.
kscaldef 14y ago
I haven't manually entered more than a trivial amount data into TurboTax in years. Most banks and brokerages seem to be on the direct-download bandwagon these days.
- Glyptodon 14y ago
  Are you endorsing TurboTax as some sort of appropriate monopoly on tax prep? My bank can tie in to TurboTax, but why should I have to support a private company lobbying to make the tax code worse on purpose just to do my taxes easily? I went through the same thing as the commenter above and it was OBNOXIOUS. Even worse, there's no real reason for it be done the way it is. Oh, and then I realized I'd made a really stupid (but easy to make) mistake that altered the amount I owed by $12 and had to file an amended return. Really really obnoxious. I'd bet anything people would care 10x less about getting taxed if filing weren't such a hassle.
  - salahxanadu 14y ago
    Tax Slayer is cheaper and better than turbo tax. fyi
  - kscaldef 14y ago
    I was replying specifically to this paragraph: > I don't care about the 30 dollars turbotax charges me, I'll send 30 dollars straight to the CEO or promise to burn it. What bothers me is that I've been forced to do manual data entry - a pet peeve of mine as a programmer - because the government has been lobbied specifically to be less efficient. in which the author reveals that he or she uses Turbotax, but finds the manual entry of data into the program onerous. I found this interesting as a criticism, since my own experience is that I virtually never have to manually enter anything into Turbotax. There was no endorsement of Turbotax or other judgement about the primary question under discussion in the article.
brooksbp 14y ago
What about image recognition for tax documents.. auto-fill based on pictures of forms etc?
- eurleif 14y ago
  Turbotax has a smartphone app which does that, at least for W2s. I've seen TV ads for it.

by rm999 14y ago

MatthewPhillips 14y ago

The government is not bad at code because of lobbying, they're bad at code because of fluctuating budgets, low salaries, and ridiculous processes.

clarkevans 14y ago
Yet, Government programs have excellent customer service as compared to corporate equivalents. I use one example: student loan servicing. My loans were serviced by the largest company in the business for years, it was pure torture. When the department of education offered to assume the loans, I was happy to have the pain gone. They have been absolutely lovely to work with, clear, transparent and... helpful.
- theorique 14y ago
  some government programs have excellent customer service as compared to some corporate equivalents I am sure we could find counterexamples here.
  - MatthewPhillips 14y ago
    Ever been to the DMV?
    - alistairSH 14y ago
      Yes. In the last decade or so, the Virginia DMV has been painless for typical tasks. Most common tasks can be performed online - registration, license renewal, even obtaining titles after paying off loans (assuming the dealer/bank held the title electronically). The few times I've had to show up in person, I've been in and out in 30 minutes or less.
    - imjared 14y ago
      DMV in the District had a pretty long line but was fine otherwise. The biggest problem I saw was people who had not read the provided information/required materials in advance of coming then started arguing or pleading their case.
      - axusgrad 14y ago
        You get problems when the employees cannot interpret the rules correctly, though. For example, proof of residency can be utility bill from the last 60 days, OR a DC property tax bill, and they reject a current DC property tax bill that wasn't issued in the last 60 days.
    - jimmaswell 14y ago
      I've been to the DMV to get an ID and it wasn't bad at all. The worst I've seen happen to other people is a long line. What are the big problems people apparently have with the DMV all the time? I'm from NY if that makes a difference.
      - mjn 14y ago
        Most Texas DMVs are hugely understaffed, I assume deliberately because they don't want to fund more staff, so the wait is generally long, like 2-3 hours long, and the facilities you're waiting in are old and poorly maintained. However, that's pretty TX-specific; TX generally underprovisions government services. The CA DMV is much nicer, and you can even book a specific time online!
navait 14y ago
The IRS was recruiting for interns at my university recently, who could eventually become full time workers. However, I found that at best I could enter as a GS-9, and those were positions with 5 years of expirience. The best salary I could get from that was $53,000 in NYC. Even the lowest offers my friends were getting were $60k in a low-cost area. If the government was able to fund it's IT operations at market rates, or pay outside the GS we'd all be much better off. I don't know about the federal level but my state relies on outside contractors to make web applcations, who mostly do a half-assed job and disappear when maintenance becomes a problem.
- cbs 14y ago
  The government doesn't do anything at market rates. They employ below market rates, and contract external companies above market rates. This is (unfortunately) by design.
  - reverend_gonzo 14y ago
    For what its worth, government jobs are also a bit more secure and generally provide pensions and other benefits. Whether those benefits are worth a decreased salary depends on the individual.
    - jdotjdot 14y ago
      Unfortunately, the pensions are largely gone the way of life 401(k)s, and with the furloughs that have been coming due to Congressional instability, those things are not really that true anymore.
  - adamc 14y ago
    Why do you say "by design"? Whose design?
    - niggler 14y ago
      A certain group of politicians want to replace all government functions with private contractors, and most of those are captured by various lobbying groups representing said contractors.
JPKab 14y ago
The government doesn't pay low salaries to coders, (remember, all they really need are CRUD apps. This isn't rocket science), its just HORRIBLE at hiring. Rather than leaving any hiring decision to anyone who knows the issue at hand, hiring is done based on a process which is optimized to be legally unimpeachable. When government succeeds, nobody gets credit, but when they get sued, its cover your ass time. This is why ALL government processes, including hiring, are first and foremost about CYA.
- Periodic 14y ago
  I've been able to witness some of this in the State of California. This system is designed to try to prevent the government from overspending on software. They can always point to a public RFP and open bids if anyone objects. However, it is not designed to produce the best value for the state. First the RFP has to be written, which itself is a very political process and may have been initiated by a contractor/sales-person convincing someone they need the software or process in question. They'll often help write the RFP if you let them. These RFPs are often signed off on by non-technical people who are not qualified to really understand the technical details. Then the state has to get multiple bids. Sometimes the RFP is written so specifically that many options are excluded. For example, I've seen an RFP that required the state pay for the software. The way it was worded excluded an OSS contracting company from providing support for a Linux solution. A more public example is the LA School District looking for computers for their students. They are required to support both a keyboard and touch, which is prime market for Windows Surface devices. It could theoretically go to something like an iPad, but it makes it very hard for laptop makers to compete. Finally the state is required to take the lowest bid that meets the requirements of the RFP. To reject a bid the state has to show that it does not meet the requirements. They can't simply take something that is better value, they have to take the cheapest solution that meets the minimum requirements.

noonespecial 14y ago

You forgot the part about when == is != they get to charge you a giant penalty. That's no accident.

pdubs 14y ago
Only if it's malicious or intentional. A mistake will be picked up and you'll get a form a year or two later asking you to accept or challenge proposed corrections. If less tax was paid than required you have to pay that + interest...which really isn't that unreasonable. I'm not saying the whole system isn't needlessly complex, but don't make it out like the IRS is actively out to get you.
- pc86 14y ago
  My return for 2008 or 09 was a mess. I had one 1099 I never received from a former employer I'm convinced was trying to screw me, I had one 1099 sent to a former address and a debt forgiveness 1099 from a credit card charge off. I got a packet from the IRS listing the adjustments, what they proposed I owed and very clear and detailed instructions on how to respond to each of the three changes. Incredibly easy to resolve the entire ordeal within weeks, including full payment. I have no doubt that if the IRS truly made it a policy to extract as much money from everyone as they could, they would have just audited me and nit picked every math error ad nauseum until I was drowning in penalties and interest. This is part of why I have a CPA now.
  - pdubs 14y ago
    I challenged the adjustments to one of my returns and the most difficult part for me was finding a damn fax machine while I was on hold with a very helpful woman at the IRS. In the end they admitted they made a mistake (to their credit, an understandable one) in saying that I made a mistake and I lost a total of maybe an hour or two of my time.
    - pc86 14y ago
      I'm sure if I didn't have three separate things to verify and pay or challenge it would have been quicker :) I ended up challenging one of the three and I spent more time writing that letter and including supporting documentation than anything else.

smsm42 14y ago

Turbotax has data import for some of the major payroll systems. However, making this work with IRS data directly, is a secure way, it not a trivial task and this task has to be performed by the IRS, not Intuit. Note that this is not what Intuit lobbied against - it's preparing the whole return (which is non-trivial, especially given law changes and thousands of options that exist) against just exporting data. I don't think Intuit would be opposed to the latter, but they are to the former.

Retric 14y ago
'especially given law changes and thousands of options that exist' The IRS needs to have this logic and data import anyway to be able to verify the return. So, all they really need to do is process everything by say March 15, and allow someone to see the data on a website and click (Accept).
- smsm42 14y ago
  I don't think IRS has all the data in one place. E.g. do they have my local property taxes? Do they have record of mileage that I could deduct for charity purposes? Do they have a value of goods I donated to charity? Hypothetical examples, there can be a lot more options, many of them not so easy for them to verify. That's why they audit - then if I am audited, I'd have to prove them it's true.

kscaldef 14y ago

I haven't manually entered more than a trivial amount data into TurboTax in years. Most banks and brokerages seem to be on the direct-download bandwagon these days.

Glyptodon 14y ago
Are you endorsing TurboTax as some sort of appropriate monopoly on tax prep? My bank can tie in to TurboTax, but why should I have to support a private company lobbying to make the tax code worse on purpose just to do my taxes easily? I went through the same thing as the commenter above and it was OBNOXIOUS. Even worse, there's no real reason for it be done the way it is. Oh, and then I realized I'd made a really stupid (but easy to make) mistake that altered the amount I owed by $12 and had to file an amended return. Really really obnoxious. I'd bet anything people would care 10x less about getting taxed if filing weren't such a hassle.
- salahxanadu 14y ago
  Tax Slayer is cheaper and better than turbo tax. fyi
- kscaldef 14y ago
  I was replying specifically to this paragraph: > I don't care about the 30 dollars turbotax charges me, I'll send 30 dollars straight to the CEO or promise to burn it. What bothers me is that I've been forced to do manual data entry - a pet peeve of mine as a programmer - because the government has been lobbied specifically to be less efficient. in which the author reveals that he or she uses Turbotax, but finds the manual entry of data into the program onerous. I found this interesting as a criticism, since my own experience is that I virtually never have to manually enter anything into Turbotax. There was no endorsement of Turbotax or other judgement about the primary question under discussion in the article.

brooksbp 14y ago

What about image recognition for tax documents.. auto-fill based on pictures of forms etc?

eurleif 14y ago
Turbotax has a smartphone app which does that, at least for W2s. I've seen TV ads for it.