10 ms·

Google barely exists in China. Facebook doesn't exist at all. Android in on notice http://www.cnbc.com/id/100521504 http://www.cnbc.com/id/100521504 So is Ap

Google barely exists in China. Facebook doesn't exist at all. Android in on notice http://www.cnbc.com/id/100521504 http://www.cnbc.com/id/100521504 So is Apple. Microsoft seems safe, so far, and until they (or if they) clone Windows. Rules, international agreements and fairness aside: It all makes sense. Why would China want their people spend a month's salary to buy a foreign product (assembly doesn't count)? Or why would the most popular sites be non-Chinese? Block the non-Chinese ones and local ones, totally controlled by China's gov, would pop up. If they could get away with it, a lot of other countries would do the same, they just don't have the 1.x billion people, trillions in Forex and audacity to try it.

coldtea 14y ago
>Why would China want their people spend a month's salary to buy a foreign product (assembly doesn't count)? Or why would the most popular sites be non-Chinese? Block the non-Chinese ones and local ones, totally controlled by China's gov, would pop up. If they could get away with it, a lot of other countries would do the same, they just don't have the 1.x billion people, trillions in Forex and audacity to try it. Indeed, it makes sense. Americans often take offense to this logic, but then again, almost all the "public internet" we use is American. From the domain registries, to Google, Facebook, Apple, MS, Yahoo, Amazon, etc. So it's easy for them to play the tolerant, and allow for the occasional foreign success story. But they would be singing a totally different tune if the most popular sites and services were to be, say, British. Much more if they were Chinese, German, etc. They would be all over for protectionism and enforcing their local alternatives if that happened. It's easy to ask for "openness" if it just means others opening to YOUR stuff (and getting a trade deficit to use it, give your government information control over their citizens, and get washed in a US point-of-view --political, historical, cultural etc). As far as being culturally closed, the US is at the top of the list. Just an example: even in Mongolia, people watch American movies. How many foreign, non anglophone, movies make it into the US theaters? Even in France people listen to American music (as well as music from all over the world). How many non-American (and non anglophone, e.g British) bands ever make into the top 10? It pretty much only happens with two things: novelties and anime (which are comics and animation, so not that far from the respective american forms anyway, and of course cross-breed with them).
- youngerdryas 14y ago
  Yes, America has tricked the world with clever marketing and the threat of invasion.
- gyardley 14y ago
  Bizarre - the United States isn't culturally closed at all. It's just got a strong domestic market in cultural goods, so most people can get the goods they want at the quality they want without needing to buy international goods (and especially international goods made in a language they don't speak). Those who disagree can get any cultural good they want. There's all kinds of foreign movie theaters in ethnic enclaves, and when there's a critical mass of people the market serves them rather well - for example, television networks like Telemundo.
  - pessimizer 14y ago
    Telemundo is an American network based in Florida.
    - gyardley 14y ago
      ... which shows a rather large amount of programming from other countries.
  - coldtea 14y ago
    >so most people can get the goods they want at the quality they want without needing to buy international goods It's not like you need one book of poetry per year, and since you have american poetry you don't have a need for French or Chinese. That might make sense for cars, tables, cheese and the like, but cultural exchange is not about "goods" and "quantities". Either you are curious about what other nations cultural offerings or you are not. The US market, generally, is not curious at all. >Those who disagree can get any cultural good they want. Closed culturally is not about "availability". Especially ever since the internet where everything is available everywhere. It's about actual consumption of foreign cultural goods. Which, with the exception of anime and some such, is nearly zero. >There's all kinds of foreign movie theaters in ethnic enclaves, and when there's a critical mass of people the market serves them rather well - for example, television networks like Telemundo. How does the presence of "foreign movie theaters in ethnic enclaves" and some tv networks for the latin community in Florida, negate that the US is culturally closed? It only reinforces it: the foreign movie theaters are, as you say, targeted to their respective ethnic communities. Cultural openness would be for the average american to listen to foreign music, watch foreign movies, and such. Not for some Mexican immigrants in LA to listen to Mexican music.
gbog 14y ago
> totally controlled by China's gov, I work in a Chinese popular site (douban.com) and I have to say that you are wrong. There is some limited damage control tools, but Chinese sites and Chinese internet as a whole are far from totally controlled by the government. Quite the opposite actually: internet memes and rumors are spreading like bush fire and local and central government have very hard time playing firemen, and there is no week without its new scandal or revelations.
- msh 14y ago
  I think he means compared to a us website.
- culturestate 14y ago
  I think the Chinese government tolerates a certain amount of scandal in order to pacify the populace. The argument for 'total government control' is much stronger when you consider things like: 1. You need a license from the government to run a web server 2. You need a chinese ID # to sign up for Weibo 3. QQ, Weixin, Weibo, RenRen, etc censor massive amounts of content at the whim of the government 4. The great firewall is getting smarter about detecting and blocking VPN connections, and VPN operators in China must be specifically licensed by the government I can list more, but I think these alone paint a pretty convincing picture that 'totally controlled by China's gov' is closer to true than false.
  - gbog 14y ago
    Well, maybe "totally" was used in the new (absence of) meaning that is used nowadays to totally look cool, as in "I totally like doughnuts" (here "totally" conveys nothing more than "really", or any other stopwords). In this case, yes, I agree: the Chinese government "somewhat" or "really" controls Chinese internet, and even probably has its hand on a on/off switch somewhere. But in English and in normal discussions, "totally" means "in totality", or "in the sum and all its parts". Related totalitarism means "control of every part of people's life". We need not to look very far to see an example of a "totally gov-controled internet": North Korea is just like that. But China is not. The sheer number of posts by minute means it cannot be realistically "totally controlled", because automatic filters are easy to circumvent, and human filters are not fast enough. A simple rumour of ex-ex-president Jiang's death would spread like fire and no deleting can stop it. The only way to stop that would be to shut down internet, and /this/ would push everyone in the streets. What I mean is that the Chinese Internet is now a heavyweight social force that is already out of Chinese government control (or anyone else, for that matter). They have to live with it, and adapt themselves.
AnthonyMouse 14y ago
>Microsoft seems safe, so far, and until they (or if they) clone Windows. http://www.engadget.com/2013/03/23/china-chooses-ubuntu-for-a-national-reference-os-coming-in-april/ http://www.engadget.com/2013/03/23/china-chooses-ubuntu-for-...
mtgx 14y ago
Microsoft seems safe? I think you missed this piece of news: http://www.canonical.com/content/canonical-and-chinese-standards-body-announce-ubuntu-collaboration http://www.canonical.com/content/canonical-and-chinese-stand... I'd say Microsoft is in the most danger, because they actually have a big business there (well if you disregard all the piracy of Windows) - that they stand to lose.
- seanmcdirmid 14y ago
  Who makes more money in China? Apple or Microsoft?
robomartin 14y ago
> Why would China want their people spend a month's salary to buy a foreign product (assembly doesn't count)? "China" should not want anything in particular. Either the Chinese are free or they are a highly manipulated and virtually enslaved population. Clearly these are extremes. The truth lies somewhere in between. If a person wants to literally burn a month's salary --literally set it on fire-- no government should have the right or ability to interfere with that. I find it disturbing to see how a portion of this thread has turned anti-US. We are not the problem.

coldtea 14y ago

>Why would China want their people spend a month's salary to buy a foreign product (assembly doesn't count)? Or why would the most popular sites be non-Chinese? Block the non-Chinese ones and local ones, totally controlled by China's gov, would pop up. If they could get away with it, a lot of other countries would do the same, they just don't have the 1.x billion people, trillions in Forex and audacity to try it. Indeed, it makes sense. Americans often take offense to this logic, but then again, almost all the "public internet" we use is American. From the domain registries, to Google, Facebook, Apple, MS, Yahoo, Amazon, etc. So it's easy for them to play the tolerant, and allow for the occasional foreign success story. But they would be singing a totally different tune if the most popular sites and services were to be, say, British. Much more if they were Chinese, German, etc. They would be all over for protectionism and enforcing their local alternatives if that happened. It's easy to ask for "openness" if it just means others opening to YOUR stuff (and getting a trade deficit to use it, give your government information control over their citizens, and get washed in a US point-of-view --political, historical, cultural etc). As far as being culturally closed, the US is at the top of the list. Just an example: even in Mongolia, people watch American movies. How many foreign, non anglophone, movies make it into the US theaters? Even in France people listen to American music (as well as music from all over the world). How many non-American (and non anglophone, e.g British) bands ever make into the top 10? It pretty much only happens with two things: novelties and anime (which are comics and animation, so not that far from the respective american forms anyway, and of course cross-breed with them).

youngerdryas 14y ago
Yes, America has tricked the world with clever marketing and the threat of invasion.
gyardley 14y ago
Bizarre - the United States isn't culturally closed at all. It's just got a strong domestic market in cultural goods, so most people can get the goods they want at the quality they want without needing to buy international goods (and especially international goods made in a language they don't speak). Those who disagree can get any cultural good they want. There's all kinds of foreign movie theaters in ethnic enclaves, and when there's a critical mass of people the market serves them rather well - for example, television networks like Telemundo.
- pessimizer 14y ago
  Telemundo is an American network based in Florida.
  - gyardley 14y ago
    ... which shows a rather large amount of programming from other countries.
- coldtea 14y ago
  >so most people can get the goods they want at the quality they want without needing to buy international goods It's not like you need one book of poetry per year, and since you have american poetry you don't have a need for French or Chinese. That might make sense for cars, tables, cheese and the like, but cultural exchange is not about "goods" and "quantities". Either you are curious about what other nations cultural offerings or you are not. The US market, generally, is not curious at all. >Those who disagree can get any cultural good they want. Closed culturally is not about "availability". Especially ever since the internet where everything is available everywhere. It's about actual consumption of foreign cultural goods. Which, with the exception of anime and some such, is nearly zero. >There's all kinds of foreign movie theaters in ethnic enclaves, and when there's a critical mass of people the market serves them rather well - for example, television networks like Telemundo. How does the presence of "foreign movie theaters in ethnic enclaves" and some tv networks for the latin community in Florida, negate that the US is culturally closed? It only reinforces it: the foreign movie theaters are, as you say, targeted to their respective ethnic communities. Cultural openness would be for the average american to listen to foreign music, watch foreign movies, and such. Not for some Mexican immigrants in LA to listen to Mexican music.

gbog 14y ago

> totally controlled by China's gov, I work in a Chinese popular site (douban.com) and I have to say that you are wrong. There is some limited damage control tools, but Chinese sites and Chinese internet as a whole are far from totally controlled by the government. Quite the opposite actually: internet memes and rumors are spreading like bush fire and local and central government have very hard time playing firemen, and there is no week without its new scandal or revelations.

msh 14y ago
I think he means compared to a us website.
culturestate 14y ago
I think the Chinese government tolerates a certain amount of scandal in order to pacify the populace. The argument for 'total government control' is much stronger when you consider things like: 1. You need a license from the government to run a web server 2. You need a chinese ID # to sign up for Weibo 3. QQ, Weixin, Weibo, RenRen, etc censor massive amounts of content at the whim of the government 4. The great firewall is getting smarter about detecting and blocking VPN connections, and VPN operators in China must be specifically licensed by the government I can list more, but I think these alone paint a pretty convincing picture that 'totally controlled by China's gov' is closer to true than false.
- gbog 14y ago
  Well, maybe "totally" was used in the new (absence of) meaning that is used nowadays to totally look cool, as in "I totally like doughnuts" (here "totally" conveys nothing more than "really", or any other stopwords). In this case, yes, I agree: the Chinese government "somewhat" or "really" controls Chinese internet, and even probably has its hand on a on/off switch somewhere. But in English and in normal discussions, "totally" means "in totality", or "in the sum and all its parts". Related totalitarism means "control of every part of people's life". We need not to look very far to see an example of a "totally gov-controled internet": North Korea is just like that. But China is not. The sheer number of posts by minute means it cannot be realistically "totally controlled", because automatic filters are easy to circumvent, and human filters are not fast enough. A simple rumour of ex-ex-president Jiang's death would spread like fire and no deleting can stop it. The only way to stop that would be to shut down internet, and /this/ would push everyone in the streets. What I mean is that the Chinese Internet is now a heavyweight social force that is already out of Chinese government control (or anyone else, for that matter). They have to live with it, and adapt themselves.

AnthonyMouse 14y ago

>Microsoft seems safe, so far, and until they (or if they) clone Windows. http://www.engadget.com/2013/03/23/china-chooses-ubuntu-for-a-national-reference-os-coming-in-april/ http://www.engadget.com/2013/03/23/china-chooses-ubuntu-for-...

mtgx 14y ago

Microsoft seems safe? I think you missed this piece of news: http://www.canonical.com/content/canonical-and-chinese-standards-body-announce-ubuntu-collaboration http://www.canonical.com/content/canonical-and-chinese-stand... I'd say Microsoft is in the most danger, because they actually have a big business there (well if you disregard all the piracy of Windows) - that they stand to lose.

seanmcdirmid 14y ago
Who makes more money in China? Apple or Microsoft?

robomartin 14y ago

> Why would China want their people spend a month's salary to buy a foreign product (assembly doesn't count)? "China" should not want anything in particular. Either the Chinese are free or they are a highly manipulated and virtually enslaved population. Clearly these are extremes. The truth lies somewhere in between. If a person wants to literally burn a month's salary --literally set it on fire-- no government should have the right or ability to interfere with that. I find it disturbing to see how a portion of this thread has turned anti-US. We are not the problem.