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I don't know anything about fashion but I spoke to some friends who are lifelong fashion addicts. Apparently in the fashion blogosphere they're more well known

by jval 14y ago

I don't know anything about fashion but I spoke to some friends who are lifelong fashion addicts. Apparently in the fashion blogosphere they're more well known for copying small designers than they are for the quality of their clothing: http://la.racked.com/archives/2013/01/09/nasty_gal_engages_in_some_supernasty_instagram_bickering.php http://la.racked.com/archives/2013/01/09/nasty_gal_engages_i...

adventured 14y ago
Amancio Ortega has made $50 billion copying other designers. Sincerest form of flattery and all that.
- brador 14y ago
  How does protection work on fashion? Anyone got a tldr on fashion copyright/design protection?
  - netcan 14y ago
    There's an interesting 1hr podcast (with transcript) here: http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2010/06/blakely_on_fash.html http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2010/06/blakely_on_fash.htm... The tldr is: In the fashion industry there is limited protection for innovative designs and as a result, copying is rampant. Despite the ease of copying, innovation is quite strong in the industry and there is a great deal of competition. I would add that, (1) the clothing industry is similar now to the the time IP was being legislated so it was directly addressed rather than derived by similarity to other areas. Its a little more logical and true to the original goals of IP than areas that derive. (2) There is a big element of hivemind/zeitgeist/emergence in fashion because people invent their own outfit every time they dress. (3) The combination of innovative fashion & quality is what makes high fashion brands valuable. (4) the lack of IP protection actually fuels innovation as a design will remain somewhat exclusive for a season only.
    - brador 14y ago
      Interesting. I think anyone interested in software patents should listen to the first 10 minutes of this. Good info about utilitarian-ness being the reason clothing design is free of protection.
    - saosebastiao 14y ago
      This is an excellent podcast. There was a similar video a while back, actually showing the garments that they talked about, but I can't seem to find it. What I find most humorous about those that are so bent out of shape about the copying is that they themselves are copycats, but they hold themselves to different standards. To them, it is okay to copy a design from 10-20 years ago, or to pull 10 different design elements from a current design...but if someone does it to them, they want to sue. The simple fact is that design elements of contemporary fashion are always recycled. Runway fashion is innovative (from an art and design perspective, as much as this crowd would probably laugh at that), but not marketable, as most people (even fashionistas) do not want to be walking art exhibitions.
      - subsystem 14y ago
        I'm guessing it was the ted talk by the same person. http://www.ted.com/talks/johanna_blakley_lessons_from_fashion_s_free_culture.html http://www.ted.com/talks/johanna_blakley_lessons_from_fashio...
  - EliRivers 14y ago
    You can't copy someone's logo. Otherwise, copy whatever design you like.
  - nicholassmith 14y ago
    A design is non-protectable, which is why they generally keep things moving fast or cover it with logos which are protectable and gives them leverage to go after copies.
  - userium 14y ago
    There is also an interesting TED talk of the virtues of copying in the fashion industry: http://on.ted.com/8RlP http://on.ted.com/8RlP
  - goatforce5 14y ago
    Lululemon, maker of high-end yoga and exercise apparel, patented some design elements on their yoga pants. They sued Calvin Klein when they started to make some similar pants. It was settled out of court: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-investor/lululemon-calvin-klein-reach-settlement-on-yoga-pants/article5489791/ http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-investor/lululemon-calv...
- kmfrk 14y ago
  NYT had a great article about Zara. The bottom line was basically that you can have the best design in the world, but if the competition has a better distribution chain, their imitation will be out in stores, before yours are. I thought it was pretty interesting to read about the importance of the logistics of a fashion label.
  - saosebastiao 14y ago
    As a Supply Chain professional, Amancio Ortega is one of my biggest role models. Their returns rate is almost zero, their discounting is nonexistent, their conception-to-floor time is two weeks, and they manage to do all that with the labor costs found in a developed economy. It surprises me that the fashion industry has largely overlooked Zara as a technical leader, referring to them as nothing more well-practiced copycats. It is just a pathetic excuse. Zara can create a similar design (they never blatantly copy, they always have their own spin), mass produce a garment and sell 50k units in less time than it takes the original creator of the "copied" garment to solidify a production plan with a Honduran Maquila with a 6 month lead time. New fashion companies should be aware that if they can't compete logistically, they have no chance at survival. Old fashion companies with bad logistics practices are only squeaking by due to brand cachet.
    - joonix 14y ago
      I don't think Zara's supply chain innovation has gone unnoticed. I think many if not most in the fashion industry understand that it's the reason they excel. I'm wondering what other industries are ripe for disruption-by-supply-chain. Dell did it to PC, Zara did it to fashion, FedEx did it to post...
      - kmfrk 14y ago
        ... Steve Jobs did it, when he ordered all remaining air transportation way back when and blocked everyone else from using it. It may have been before the iPod. Tim Cook is a bit of a logistics genius as well.
      - medell 14y ago
codexon 14y ago
Wow looks like an exact copy. Amazing how they try to brush it off as an accident.
Axsuul 14y ago
Yet their customers keep coming back for more.
bromang 14y ago
Competition in action, reducing prices for consumers. I like it!
- flyinRyan 14y ago
  You like big players using their vast resources to steal from "up and comers" who have no way of defending themselves? I find that attitude utterly disgusting.
  - nawitus 14y ago
    It's called capitalism.
    - flyinRyan 14y ago
      Adam Smith (you know, the "father of capitalism") would disagree. I don't want any part of the system you call "capitalism" no matter what it's name is.
DanBC 14y ago
Ripping off designs seems to be a problem with some fashion companies. Someone posted this link on HN a while ago, and it's pretty shocking just how blatant some copying is. (http://youthoughtwewouldntnotice.com/blog3/ http://youthoughtwewouldntnotice.com/blog3/) About your link: Nasty Gal could have handled that a lot better. Something like "Hey, we're really sorry that your design got ripped off. We've written privately to you to explain how this happens. We like the design, and we want to keep selling it, so we've also written to you about that. And you point out something that's a problem (link to competitors ripping off designers) - we want to help. So we've got a "report the rip off" site here, and if we're ripping off a designer we'll put things right!". That would have got them a lot of credit amongst designers, and maybe among customers.
kmfrk 14y ago
Wow. That's like something out of the commentary for a YouTube video. One wonders how someone presumably in charge of PR could have gone about it that way.
ThomPete 14y ago
There are many companies who do just that and make a killing. Jack&Jones, HM, GAP, Banana Republic etc. Most people just want to look contemporary without looking trendy. Think about it as curation for the common man.

by jval 14y ago

adventured 14y ago

Amancio Ortega has made $50 billion copying other designers. Sincerest form of flattery and all that.

brador 14y ago
How does protection work on fashion? Anyone got a tldr on fashion copyright/design protection?
- netcan 14y ago
  There's an interesting 1hr podcast (with transcript) here: http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2010/06/blakely_on_fash.html http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2010/06/blakely_on_fash.htm... The tldr is: In the fashion industry there is limited protection for innovative designs and as a result, copying is rampant. Despite the ease of copying, innovation is quite strong in the industry and there is a great deal of competition. I would add that, (1) the clothing industry is similar now to the the time IP was being legislated so it was directly addressed rather than derived by similarity to other areas. Its a little more logical and true to the original goals of IP than areas that derive. (2) There is a big element of hivemind/zeitgeist/emergence in fashion because people invent their own outfit every time they dress. (3) The combination of innovative fashion & quality is what makes high fashion brands valuable. (4) the lack of IP protection actually fuels innovation as a design will remain somewhat exclusive for a season only.
  - brador 14y ago
    Interesting. I think anyone interested in software patents should listen to the first 10 minutes of this. Good info about utilitarian-ness being the reason clothing design is free of protection.
  - saosebastiao 14y ago
    This is an excellent podcast. There was a similar video a while back, actually showing the garments that they talked about, but I can't seem to find it. What I find most humorous about those that are so bent out of shape about the copying is that they themselves are copycats, but they hold themselves to different standards. To them, it is okay to copy a design from 10-20 years ago, or to pull 10 different design elements from a current design...but if someone does it to them, they want to sue. The simple fact is that design elements of contemporary fashion are always recycled. Runway fashion is innovative (from an art and design perspective, as much as this crowd would probably laugh at that), but not marketable, as most people (even fashionistas) do not want to be walking art exhibitions.
    - subsystem 14y ago
      I'm guessing it was the ted talk by the same person. http://www.ted.com/talks/johanna_blakley_lessons_from_fashion_s_free_culture.html http://www.ted.com/talks/johanna_blakley_lessons_from_fashio...
- EliRivers 14y ago
  You can't copy someone's logo. Otherwise, copy whatever design you like.
- nicholassmith 14y ago
  A design is non-protectable, which is why they generally keep things moving fast or cover it with logos which are protectable and gives them leverage to go after copies.
- userium 14y ago
  There is also an interesting TED talk of the virtues of copying in the fashion industry: http://on.ted.com/8RlP http://on.ted.com/8RlP
- goatforce5 14y ago
  Lululemon, maker of high-end yoga and exercise apparel, patented some design elements on their yoga pants. They sued Calvin Klein when they started to make some similar pants. It was settled out of court: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-investor/lululemon-calvin-klein-reach-settlement-on-yoga-pants/article5489791/ http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-investor/lululemon-calv...
kmfrk 14y ago
NYT had a great article about Zara. The bottom line was basically that you can have the best design in the world, but if the competition has a better distribution chain, their imitation will be out in stores, before yours are. I thought it was pretty interesting to read about the importance of the logistics of a fashion label.
- saosebastiao 14y ago
  As a Supply Chain professional, Amancio Ortega is one of my biggest role models. Their returns rate is almost zero, their discounting is nonexistent, their conception-to-floor time is two weeks, and they manage to do all that with the labor costs found in a developed economy. It surprises me that the fashion industry has largely overlooked Zara as a technical leader, referring to them as nothing more well-practiced copycats. It is just a pathetic excuse. Zara can create a similar design (they never blatantly copy, they always have their own spin), mass produce a garment and sell 50k units in less time than it takes the original creator of the "copied" garment to solidify a production plan with a Honduran Maquila with a 6 month lead time. New fashion companies should be aware that if they can't compete logistically, they have no chance at survival. Old fashion companies with bad logistics practices are only squeaking by due to brand cachet.
  - joonix 14y ago
    I don't think Zara's supply chain innovation has gone unnoticed. I think many if not most in the fashion industry understand that it's the reason they excel. I'm wondering what other industries are ripe for disruption-by-supply-chain. Dell did it to PC, Zara did it to fashion, FedEx did it to post...
    - kmfrk 14y ago
      ... Steve Jobs did it, when he ordered all remaining air transportation way back when and blocked everyone else from using it. It may have been before the iPod. Tim Cook is a bit of a logistics genius as well.
    - medell 14y ago

codexon 14y ago

Wow looks like an exact copy. Amazing how they try to brush it off as an accident.

Axsuul 14y ago

Yet their customers keep coming back for more.

bromang 14y ago

Competition in action, reducing prices for consumers. I like it!

flyinRyan 14y ago
You like big players using their vast resources to steal from "up and comers" who have no way of defending themselves? I find that attitude utterly disgusting.
- nawitus 14y ago
  It's called capitalism.
  - flyinRyan 14y ago
    Adam Smith (you know, the "father of capitalism") would disagree. I don't want any part of the system you call "capitalism" no matter what it's name is.

DanBC 14y ago

Ripping off designs seems to be a problem with some fashion companies. Someone posted this link on HN a while ago, and it's pretty shocking just how blatant some copying is. (http://youthoughtwewouldntnotice.com/blog3/ http://youthoughtwewouldntnotice.com/blog3/) About your link: Nasty Gal could have handled that a lot better. Something like "Hey, we're really sorry that your design got ripped off. We've written privately to you to explain how this happens. We like the design, and we want to keep selling it, so we've also written to you about that. And you point out something that's a problem (link to competitors ripping off designers) - we want to help. So we've got a "report the rip off" site here, and if we're ripping off a designer we'll put things right!". That would have got them a lot of credit amongst designers, and maybe among customers.

kmfrk 14y ago

Wow. That's like something out of the commentary for a YouTube video. One wonders how someone presumably in charge of PR could have gone about it that way.

ThomPete 14y ago

There are many companies who do just that and make a killing. Jack&Jones, HM, GAP, Banana Republic etc. Most people just want to look contemporary without looking trendy. Think about it as curation for the common man.