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Absolutely. * Tiananmen square. Murders against any form of civil disobedience. * Secret and non-secret alliances with North Korea. * Occasional acts of aggr

Absolutely. * Tiananmen square. Murders against any form of civil disobedience. * Secret and non-secret alliances with North Korea. * Occasional acts of aggression on Japan. * Great firewall, general suppression of information from citizens. * Massive amounts of political corruption. * Human rights violations aplenty. * Causing an environmental catastrophe. Fucking up the entire planet in the process. * Tibet, Taiwan, etc etc

mtgx 14y ago
Unfortunately, I think most Chinese living there have bought the government's argument that if any of the stuff you mentioned above would not exist, it would "disrupt" the "unity" of their society. So everyone must stay in line for the "greater good", even if violent action is necessary against some individuals. What's the scariest thing in such situations is not one tyrant or another. If only that was the case, it wouldn't be too hard to replace him. The scariest part is when a culture forms around that tyrant's ideals. Because that will be very hard to "kill" or replace. It can take generations, depending on how deep that culture goes. Look even at US. Let's say the TSA was a complete and total mistake, and history will prove that to be right. But how long will it take to kill the TSA? It's already been a decade, and I can easily see it last another decade. So is it just Bush or Obama at fault for keeping TSA? No. It's country's culture right now that TSA and plenty of other "counter-terrorist" measures (including the stamping of the 4th amendment) are "needed". When you look at it from that point of view, you begin to understand why most Chinese may not necessarily see what their government is doing as a bad thing, because they themselves think their measures are good and necessary.
- staticfish 14y ago
  That's an interesting point, but it's really difficult when you talk to a Chinese person and they flatly deny tiananmen square, or that their government is suppressing their own freedom. When you go to prove it on the internet, it still seems like they just do not want to believe. I find that very difficult to deal with. I'm not going to win friends here, but it's much like talking with an Israeli.
  - coldtea 14y ago
    >I'm not going to win friends here, but it's much like talking with an Israeli. Or an American, for that matter. Americans still believe they are a "progressive" and model nation for freedom. Segregation was merely 40 years ago. People go to jail for decades for procession of marijuana. They execute teenagers. They execute (period -- almost all western countries have stopped this shit). People still are told (and ...believe!) that Truman dropped nuclear bombs on civilians "to end the war" and that "his hands were tied". The number of incarcerated people is record breaking for any nation on earth -- and the vast majority of them are black. Plus -- people still believe they have the right (or even ...obligation) to intervene, that is invade, other countries, either to "bring democracy" or because they have "strategic interests" there.
    - staticfish 14y ago
      >Americans still believe they are a "progressive" and model nation for freedom. Not all Americans. Look at HN or any semi-educated social circle. A lot of your points just bring up tit-for-tat historical talking points. Yes a lot of countries have done a lot of terrible things throughout history, especially the west, but we're talking about now. 2013. Today I just read an article describing how the Chinese have just sent 12 escaped North Koreans back to NK to be welcomed by torture and generations the same fate. 2013 China is a disgusting example of a modern and humane country.
      - scarmig 14y ago
        But the tit-for-tat is totally relevant! At least for things happening in the present day. Most people's countries are doing things you disagree with: but within a country, even if you oppose someone doing something, you can usually sympathize with the rationale behind it. When the media deflects attention to those evil people with different color skin across the ocean, it's very easy to simplify things. Case in point: those escaped North Koreans weren't merely refugees but defecting soldiers who had shot their superior officer. Do you think China liked being in that situation? You can either cause a major international row with a nuclear-equipped rabid dog who for historical reasons is sitting a couple hundred miles away from your capital, or you can send a rebellious military unit back for certain execution. What would you have done? And let's make this sharper: what would your country's military bureaucracy have done? Why not let people who have actual local knowledge and care about changing things focus on what local people's actual priorities are and the real pain points for human wellbeing?
- gtr32x 14y ago
  Hmmm, how about we try to stay together so China will not be broken apart by the West like the former Soviet Union? Yes, maybe the average citizens don't necessarily think this way and they are brainwashed by the government. But it's not like we don't understand the government has bad deeds. We think to ourselves, what more can we do to make better if we were to reign China instead of the communist party? Yes they are the ones that are corrupted, and they are also the one that did the Tiananmen massacre, no need to flat out deny that. But it's ok, they are the one that also made China stronger. Don't argue saying that but all those things we are ok with are wrong on principle, when US was becoming stronger or any other country for that matter, did they do nothing wrong? Don't get me wrong though, from individual levels, I do not agree with the government's doing. However, from a national and cultural level, the party's interest is to see China grow stronger so they have more power, while we don't necessarily want to see them having more power, but we are on the same line of thinking that we want to see China stronger. Even though they may do things that harm individuality in process, I'll refrain from speaking for all of Chinese population, but at least I buy it.
- jessaustin 14y ago
  Let's say the TSA was a complete and total mistake, and history will prove that to be right. But how long will it take to kill the TSA? It's already been a decade, and I can easily see it last another decade..... It's country's culture right now that TSA and plenty of other "counter-terrorist" measures (including the stamping of the 4th amendment) are "needed". This is well illustrated by the media-incited reaction to the recent relaxing of the pocketknife ban. Somehow the squawky news shows could find dozens of people prepared to worry on-camera about getting stabbed with penknives in an airplane, as if that were ever a problem anywhere ever. They even had "experts" talk about the clear and present danger of hijacking-by-threatening-a-baby-with-a-knife. (Because that's such a common method for e.g. robbing banks.) I almost suspect someone at the TSA had coordinated it with the media beforehand, but there will never be a shortage of purse-clutchers ready to affirm the status quo.
coldtea 14y ago
>Tiananmen square. Murders against any form of civil disobedience. Kent state shootings. And lots of similar actions, from the Wounded Knee incident to the Wako siege. >Secret and non-secret alliances with North Korea. Secret and non-secret alliances with Pinochet, Videla, Saudi Arabia and pretty much every corrupted government and dictatorship on earth. >Occasional acts of aggression on Japan. Constant acts of aggression towards any country that doesn't bend down backwards for their interests, from Vietnam to Iraq etc. The only nation to drop nuclear bombs on civilian towns. >Great firewall, general suppression of information from citizens. Patriot Act, data retention, DMCA, general suppression of information from citizens, J.E Hoover, McCarthy >Massive amounts of political corruption. Haliburton, Wall Street ties, paid-for senators, gun lobby, etc etc >Human rights violations aplenty. Death penalty for teenagers (one of the only 5-6 countries in the world to do that), Guantanamo, waterboarding and other torture, medical experiments on unsuspecting humans (by the US in Guatemala), sponsoring the Death Squads and other favorable dictatorship practices, seggregation (until 1970), disproportionate percentage of the black population in jail, ... >Causing an environmental catastrophe. Fucking up the entire planet in the process. The same. Refusing to sign world treaties on the matter. Dumping their waste on poorer third world countries. Leading the "la-la-la-no-global-warming-la-la" paid-experts denial. >Tibet, Taiwan, etc etc Vietnam, Korea, (...) Iraq, Afghanistan, (...) See how it looks from the other side of the looking glass? Let he who has not sinned cast the first stone.
- douglasisshiny 14y ago
  This is your defense in the 'China is not repressive' argument?
- staticfish 14y ago
  Wait, I'm British. You were talking about Britain. Why did we suddenly switch to the USA? Also, half of your rebuttals are inaccurate and half are not comparable in the slightest. No, there is no western version of the horrors of "Tank Man". A lot of the Chinese i've spoken to do not even know this happened, and the other half refuse to see it as a problem. You're a textbook example. The USA isn't the greatest country for a lot of this stuff, I'll admit, but at least it doesn't go as far as to commit the terribly inhumane atrocities of China. There is no suppression of readily available information (blocked search queries, etc). The enviromental stuff doesn't really hold up either. Yes, the US is a terrible polluter of the world, but in Los Angeles, arguably one of the most polluted cities in NA, you can look outside your window and see further than 100 meters. This is not the case in many Chinese cities. The wars that have spanned the last five decades (Middle East, Asia, South America) have been brutal, bloody, and in many case unwarranted, but again, this is nothing to the blatant and open genocides caused by the Chinese. Half of the country is in extreme poverty. Examples: Three-Year Famine, Mao's "1000 Flowers Bloom".
wangjiahua 14y ago
I agree with you for * Tiananmen square. Murders against any form of civil disobedience. * Great firewall, general suppression of information from citizens. * Massive amounts of political corruption. * Human rights violations aplenty. These are suffered by the Chinese people, but unfortunately that's not what you really care about... For the other points, especially the ones with foreign policies, China is much nicer (or you may even say weaker) than other countries. For me, I just hope despite all the political shows, there will be no war nor region conflicts. Anyways, I guess he's offended by the word "repressive nation", use "repressive government" would be a little better.

mtgx 14y ago

Unfortunately, I think most Chinese living there have bought the government's argument that if any of the stuff you mentioned above would not exist, it would "disrupt" the "unity" of their society. So everyone must stay in line for the "greater good", even if violent action is necessary against some individuals. What's the scariest thing in such situations is not one tyrant or another. If only that was the case, it wouldn't be too hard to replace him. The scariest part is when a culture forms around that tyrant's ideals. Because that will be very hard to "kill" or replace. It can take generations, depending on how deep that culture goes. Look even at US. Let's say the TSA was a complete and total mistake, and history will prove that to be right. But how long will it take to kill the TSA? It's already been a decade, and I can easily see it last another decade. So is it just Bush or Obama at fault for keeping TSA? No. It's country's culture right now that TSA and plenty of other "counter-terrorist" measures (including the stamping of the 4th amendment) are "needed". When you look at it from that point of view, you begin to understand why most Chinese may not necessarily see what their government is doing as a bad thing, because they themselves think their measures are good and necessary.

staticfish 14y ago
That's an interesting point, but it's really difficult when you talk to a Chinese person and they flatly deny tiananmen square, or that their government is suppressing their own freedom. When you go to prove it on the internet, it still seems like they just do not want to believe. I find that very difficult to deal with. I'm not going to win friends here, but it's much like talking with an Israeli.
- coldtea 14y ago
  >I'm not going to win friends here, but it's much like talking with an Israeli. Or an American, for that matter. Americans still believe they are a "progressive" and model nation for freedom. Segregation was merely 40 years ago. People go to jail for decades for procession of marijuana. They execute teenagers. They execute (period -- almost all western countries have stopped this shit). People still are told (and ...believe!) that Truman dropped nuclear bombs on civilians "to end the war" and that "his hands were tied". The number of incarcerated people is record breaking for any nation on earth -- and the vast majority of them are black. Plus -- people still believe they have the right (or even ...obligation) to intervene, that is invade, other countries, either to "bring democracy" or because they have "strategic interests" there.
  - staticfish 14y ago
    >Americans still believe they are a "progressive" and model nation for freedom. Not all Americans. Look at HN or any semi-educated social circle. A lot of your points just bring up tit-for-tat historical talking points. Yes a lot of countries have done a lot of terrible things throughout history, especially the west, but we're talking about now. 2013. Today I just read an article describing how the Chinese have just sent 12 escaped North Koreans back to NK to be welcomed by torture and generations the same fate. 2013 China is a disgusting example of a modern and humane country.
    - scarmig 14y ago
      But the tit-for-tat is totally relevant! At least for things happening in the present day. Most people's countries are doing things you disagree with: but within a country, even if you oppose someone doing something, you can usually sympathize with the rationale behind it. When the media deflects attention to those evil people with different color skin across the ocean, it's very easy to simplify things. Case in point: those escaped North Koreans weren't merely refugees but defecting soldiers who had shot their superior officer. Do you think China liked being in that situation? You can either cause a major international row with a nuclear-equipped rabid dog who for historical reasons is sitting a couple hundred miles away from your capital, or you can send a rebellious military unit back for certain execution. What would you have done? And let's make this sharper: what would your country's military bureaucracy have done? Why not let people who have actual local knowledge and care about changing things focus on what local people's actual priorities are and the real pain points for human wellbeing?
gtr32x 14y ago
Hmmm, how about we try to stay together so China will not be broken apart by the West like the former Soviet Union? Yes, maybe the average citizens don't necessarily think this way and they are brainwashed by the government. But it's not like we don't understand the government has bad deeds. We think to ourselves, what more can we do to make better if we were to reign China instead of the communist party? Yes they are the ones that are corrupted, and they are also the one that did the Tiananmen massacre, no need to flat out deny that. But it's ok, they are the one that also made China stronger. Don't argue saying that but all those things we are ok with are wrong on principle, when US was becoming stronger or any other country for that matter, did they do nothing wrong? Don't get me wrong though, from individual levels, I do not agree with the government's doing. However, from a national and cultural level, the party's interest is to see China grow stronger so they have more power, while we don't necessarily want to see them having more power, but we are on the same line of thinking that we want to see China stronger. Even though they may do things that harm individuality in process, I'll refrain from speaking for all of Chinese population, but at least I buy it.
jessaustin 14y ago
Let's say the TSA was a complete and total mistake, and history will prove that to be right. But how long will it take to kill the TSA? It's already been a decade, and I can easily see it last another decade..... It's country's culture right now that TSA and plenty of other "counter-terrorist" measures (including the stamping of the 4th amendment) are "needed". This is well illustrated by the media-incited reaction to the recent relaxing of the pocketknife ban. Somehow the squawky news shows could find dozens of people prepared to worry on-camera about getting stabbed with penknives in an airplane, as if that were ever a problem anywhere ever. They even had "experts" talk about the clear and present danger of hijacking-by-threatening-a-baby-with-a-knife. (Because that's such a common method for e.g. robbing banks.) I almost suspect someone at the TSA had coordinated it with the media beforehand, but there will never be a shortage of purse-clutchers ready to affirm the status quo.

coldtea 14y ago

>Tiananmen square. Murders against any form of civil disobedience. Kent state shootings. And lots of similar actions, from the Wounded Knee incident to the Wako siege. >Secret and non-secret alliances with North Korea. Secret and non-secret alliances with Pinochet, Videla, Saudi Arabia and pretty much every corrupted government and dictatorship on earth. >Occasional acts of aggression on Japan. Constant acts of aggression towards any country that doesn't bend down backwards for their interests, from Vietnam to Iraq etc. The only nation to drop nuclear bombs on civilian towns. >Great firewall, general suppression of information from citizens. Patriot Act, data retention, DMCA, general suppression of information from citizens, J.E Hoover, McCarthy >Massive amounts of political corruption. Haliburton, Wall Street ties, paid-for senators, gun lobby, etc etc >Human rights violations aplenty. Death penalty for teenagers (one of the only 5-6 countries in the world to do that), Guantanamo, waterboarding and other torture, medical experiments on unsuspecting humans (by the US in Guatemala), sponsoring the Death Squads and other favorable dictatorship practices, seggregation (until 1970), disproportionate percentage of the black population in jail, ... >Causing an environmental catastrophe. Fucking up the entire planet in the process. The same. Refusing to sign world treaties on the matter. Dumping their waste on poorer third world countries. Leading the "la-la-la-no-global-warming-la-la" paid-experts denial. >Tibet, Taiwan, etc etc Vietnam, Korea, (...) Iraq, Afghanistan, (...) See how it looks from the other side of the looking glass? Let he who has not sinned cast the first stone.

douglasisshiny 14y ago
This is your defense in the 'China is not repressive' argument?
staticfish 14y ago
Wait, I'm British. You were talking about Britain. Why did we suddenly switch to the USA? Also, half of your rebuttals are inaccurate and half are not comparable in the slightest. No, there is no western version of the horrors of "Tank Man". A lot of the Chinese i've spoken to do not even know this happened, and the other half refuse to see it as a problem. You're a textbook example. The USA isn't the greatest country for a lot of this stuff, I'll admit, but at least it doesn't go as far as to commit the terribly inhumane atrocities of China. There is no suppression of readily available information (blocked search queries, etc). The enviromental stuff doesn't really hold up either. Yes, the US is a terrible polluter of the world, but in Los Angeles, arguably one of the most polluted cities in NA, you can look outside your window and see further than 100 meters. This is not the case in many Chinese cities. The wars that have spanned the last five decades (Middle East, Asia, South America) have been brutal, bloody, and in many case unwarranted, but again, this is nothing to the blatant and open genocides caused by the Chinese. Half of the country is in extreme poverty. Examples: Three-Year Famine, Mao's "1000 Flowers Bloom".

wangjiahua 14y ago

I agree with you for * Tiananmen square. Murders against any form of civil disobedience. * Great firewall, general suppression of information from citizens. * Massive amounts of political corruption. * Human rights violations aplenty. These are suffered by the Chinese people, but unfortunately that's not what you really care about... For the other points, especially the ones with foreign policies, China is much nicer (or you may even say weaker) than other countries. For me, I just hope despite all the political shows, there will be no war nor region conflicts. Anyways, I guess he's offended by the word "repressive nation", use "repressive government" would be a little better.