6 ms·

I'm honestly surprised that anyone is attacking Sendgrid, defending Ms Richards, attacking PyCon or defending Playhaven in this incident. The fact is that what

by cletus 14y ago

I'm honestly surprised that anyone is attacking Sendgrid, defending Ms Richards, attacking PyCon or defending Playhaven in this incident. The fact is that what you do reflects on your employer to a degree. If you're a developer evangelist, that's quite a high degree, particularly if you drag them into your public spat. Most people in the media (news readers and so forth) have a "morals clause" in their contract because they publicly represent the company. This situation is much the same. I, for example, am just a software engineer. I pretty much stay away from any thread involving Google directly as I don't want anything I say to be misconstrued as representing the company's view. We have a media relations department for that. Those defending Ms Richards might say "on your personal time you can do what you want" (to me). Well, yes and no. It's certainly at my peril. Also, in Ms Richard's case, at PyCon she was on official (or at least semi-official) duties so the "personal time" argument doesn't even apply. This whole incident reads like two guys making jokes to themselves. She overheard and decided to make an issue of it by naming and shaming them in a very public way while waving her employer's flag. Nevermind that this wasn't called for (IMHO), I don't believe for a second that the comments were directed at her or intended for her to hear. The fact that Playhaven fired this engineer over this is disappointing. A public statement about supporting diversity and a warning from HR really should've been sufficient (again, IMHO). It makes me wonder if they wanted to fire him anyway. Some other commenters suggest Ms Richards can sue. I tend to disagree but IANAL. I do however think the fired engineer may have a case. He can show damages (losing his job) and argue that Ms Richards (and her employer had they not fired her) had acted with reckless disregard. I'm not sure it's a strong case but I bet it's an arguable case. Sendgrid's statement is (IMHO) excellent. It is measured, factual and has a great tone. This is not a position they wanted to be in (from reading the post). They've deliberated. They state a great bottom line that this issue and the subsequent fallout endangers their business. They don't want to be the story here and Ms Richards made them the story. That's on her. Let this be a lesson to all reading this: what you do can affect your employment. Act with care and restraint. Once something is said or done it can be very difficult to roll it back.

stephengillie 14y ago
The joke was between 2 people seated behind her -- were both engineers at Playhaven? Was the other person fired? Edit: Why the downvotes? Is there something I've missed? Does this comment really prevent further discussion on the issue?
- YuriNiyazov 14y ago
  Well, there's tons of commentary on the issue, and I think you are getting down-voted (I didn't DV you, FWIW), because you could've read or searched through them to figure out whether the other guy was fired. The answers are: if you had seen the photo in question, you'd see that the two engineers are actually wearing PlayHaven T-Shirts, which strongly implies that if one of them works for PlayHaven, then the other does too (which was corroborated in another thread). The other person wasn't fired because he was the recipient of the joke, rather than the producer.
  - stephengillie 14y ago
    Thanks for connecting the dots for me. I had every point of data you mentioned, but somehow didn't combine them into that information.
- cheapsteak 14y ago
  Yes they were both engineers at Playhaven. The other person was not fired. It would make little sense to fire someone for being told a joke.
  - gritzko 14y ago
    Comrade Stalin disagrees.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
georgeorwell 14y ago
> I'm honestly surprised that anyone is [...] defending Ms Richards Even though I think she messed up in a big way, that there wasn't sexism, that she is a hypocrite, and that she really kept asking for it, much of the aggressive abuse directed at Adria Richards since the initial event has been totally out of control, and would count as criminal hate in some countries. For starters, look at the comments on her Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/adriarichards https://www.facebook.com/adriarichards
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- mladenkovacevic 14y ago
  Couldn't agree more. I want to live in a world where I can make dick jokes as much as the next guy, but the response to this scares me a billion times more than the possibility of getting reported/fired/beat-up/shamed for making some insensitive joke. Many of us are basically rabid babies foaming at the mouth to join some mob, and go wage a holy war against something controversial just so we could calm our own insecurities and complexes. Why are so many people (men mostly) so adamant in expressing their opinion on this one particular issue. Yeah we get it, she messed up and you're indignant.. now shut the fuck up. And then there are other ones who feel that because of the way she handles herself, Adria Richards becomes fair game for anonymous and violent rape threats, being called cunt and bitch... and the 'civilized' ones somehow shrug it off with a "Well.. she brought it on herself.. internet is a cruel place, and she rubbed it the wrong way." This kind of shit makes me more convinced than ever that humanity won't end with a meteor strike or a giant earthquake, but a mob of assholes with superman complexes and pitchforks going around making sure that people understand their vision of justice.
- eloisant 14y ago
  I agree that the reactions and backlash she got were way beyond the line and not deserved. But that doesn't change the fact that she shouldn't have done what she did, and as a Sendgrid customer I believe they took the right decision.
- epidemian 14y ago
jennyjenjen 14y ago
I wish I could say that I'm surprised that anyone is attacking SendGrid. Even though they have done nothing to deserve such backlash - both before and after firing Adria Richards - it doesn't surprise me in the least that people are taking the opportunity to unleash hateful comments and demonstrate poor attitudes. I agree with you all the way, other than that. SendGrid made a great case for departing with Ms. Richards and I think it's pretty clear that her role as a developer evangelist is certainly harmed and she can no longer continue in that role. It has nothing to do with gender, and it has nothing to do with her being offended by those comments, but it has everything to do with the poor way she handled calling out these guys and the fact that she cannot participate in a developer community without developers being fearful of how they conduct themselves within earshot of her (they weren't even talking to her!). [Edit: Downvoting this eh? If you downvote, you should really participate in the discussion and tell me why I might be wrong.]
- benjiweber 14y ago
  > Even though they have done nothing to deserve such backlash They fired an employee without due process. Apparently a knee-jerk reaction rather than considered disciplinary process. They capitulated to an anonymous DDOS. Even with a ridiculous demand. Giving the impression they were not technically able to bring the service back up by themselves. Neither of these gives me confidence in trusting SendGrid with email. The first makes me think they'll be happy doing rash and possibly illegal things like sending email data in response to a subpoena. The second makes me doubt their future reliability.
  - jennyjenjen 14y ago
    > They fired an employee without due process. Apparently a knee-jerk reaction rather than considered disciplinary process. How do you know? Are you at SendGrid? Did you speak to Adria? Have you talked with the founders, CEO, legal counsel? Colorado, like California, is an employment-at-will state and has been since 1987. The employer may terminate an employee for a million reasons under the sun. IANAL but I think most other people who have been in the working world more than a few years understand what that means. In a way, I was incorrect... they did do a few things to deserve such backlash. They lacked tact in their initial posts about firing Ms. Richards. They should've led with the "Difficult Situation" post. If you read the post, which they finally churned out a few hours after declaring her employment terminated, you can see that it wasn't terribly rash. They certainly thought it out. Would you have held onto an employee you couldn't trust? As for their technical abilities, I'm not able to judge that - so you may be correct about such competencies. However, "due process" isn't necessarily for firing an employee in Colorado, and besides, we don't know what went on as this developed and how the company actually went about terminating Ms. Richards' employment. We may find that out soon.
_pmf_ 14y ago
> I'm honestly surprised that anyone is attacking Sendgrid, defending Ms Richards, attacking PyCon or defending Playhaven in this incident. Indeed. SendGrid did not have many options there. Playhaven, on the other side, could have dealt with the situation in a graceful and humane manner (absolutely nothing would have been lost if they just temporarily suspended the guy), but chose not to.
abcd_f 14y ago
> Some other commenters suggest Ms Richards can sue That will completely total what's left of her reputation and the re-employment perspectives. She appears to be a "people's person" thriving on social interaction, but nobody likes litigious persons.
oelmekki 14y ago
> Most people in the media (news readers and so forth) have a "morals clause" in their contract because they publicly represent the company. This situation is much the same. Indeed, community manager (call that evangelist if you want to) is a weird job. You're supposed to be social, natural - to be as you would be in private life. In cases like these, you're even supposed to use your own identity to support the brand : you are someone real, that get in touch with real people in the most friendly fashion. But you can't be yourself too much. That's a problem here, since you don't have any other "real" identity. You have to be the brand and as such, everything you do and say is backed up by the brand. Adria used her own personal twitter account to make her statement, that sounds legitimate. But developer has been fired because she had the weight of sendgrid brand. That's something very pervert in the community manager / evangelist job : you sell your social self (something I guess politicians know well). On a side note, I'm quite surprised this can happen in the US, which places free speech as the one and most important right. Not when related to business.
- jennyjenjen 14y ago
  Ah, two great points: 1) the difficulty / contradictions in community manager / evangelist jobs, and 2) free speech in the US. I am not sure where you are from - France, judging by the hour, grammar, punctuation? - but after living outside the US and having the luxury of observing my home country from the outside, I have found that free speech is not treated with as much value as we seem to claim. Some would say that free speech in the US is very much threatened nowadays.
  - oelmekki 14y ago
    France indeed. And sorry for the grammar ;)
    - jennyjenjen 14y ago
      Not a bad thing; it is actually quite good. It is more that French speakers compose things certain ways :)
  - 14y ago

by cletus 14y ago

stephengillie 14y ago

The joke was between 2 people seated behind her -- were both engineers at Playhaven? Was the other person fired? Edit: Why the downvotes? Is there something I've missed? Does this comment really prevent further discussion on the issue?

YuriNiyazov 14y ago
Well, there's tons of commentary on the issue, and I think you are getting down-voted (I didn't DV you, FWIW), because you could've read or searched through them to figure out whether the other guy was fired. The answers are: if you had seen the photo in question, you'd see that the two engineers are actually wearing PlayHaven T-Shirts, which strongly implies that if one of them works for PlayHaven, then the other does too (which was corroborated in another thread). The other person wasn't fired because he was the recipient of the joke, rather than the producer.
- stephengillie 14y ago
  Thanks for connecting the dots for me. I had every point of data you mentioned, but somehow didn't combine them into that information.
cheapsteak 14y ago
Yes they were both engineers at Playhaven. The other person was not fired. It would make little sense to fire someone for being told a joke.
- gritzko 14y ago
  Comrade Stalin disagrees.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]

georgeorwell 14y ago

> I'm honestly surprised that anyone is [...] defending Ms Richards Even though I think she messed up in a big way, that there wasn't sexism, that she is a hypocrite, and that she really kept asking for it, much of the aggressive abuse directed at Adria Richards since the initial event has been totally out of control, and would count as criminal hate in some countries. For starters, look at the comments on her Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/adriarichards https://www.facebook.com/adriarichards

deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
mladenkovacevic 14y ago
Couldn't agree more. I want to live in a world where I can make dick jokes as much as the next guy, but the response to this scares me a billion times more than the possibility of getting reported/fired/beat-up/shamed for making some insensitive joke. Many of us are basically rabid babies foaming at the mouth to join some mob, and go wage a holy war against something controversial just so we could calm our own insecurities and complexes. Why are so many people (men mostly) so adamant in expressing their opinion on this one particular issue. Yeah we get it, she messed up and you're indignant.. now shut the fuck up. And then there are other ones who feel that because of the way she handles herself, Adria Richards becomes fair game for anonymous and violent rape threats, being called cunt and bitch... and the 'civilized' ones somehow shrug it off with a "Well.. she brought it on herself.. internet is a cruel place, and she rubbed it the wrong way." This kind of shit makes me more convinced than ever that humanity won't end with a meteor strike or a giant earthquake, but a mob of assholes with superman complexes and pitchforks going around making sure that people understand their vision of justice.
eloisant 14y ago
I agree that the reactions and backlash she got were way beyond the line and not deserved. But that doesn't change the fact that she shouldn't have done what she did, and as a Sendgrid customer I believe they took the right decision.
epidemian 14y ago

jennyjenjen 14y ago

I wish I could say that I'm surprised that anyone is attacking SendGrid. Even though they have done nothing to deserve such backlash - both before and after firing Adria Richards - it doesn't surprise me in the least that people are taking the opportunity to unleash hateful comments and demonstrate poor attitudes. I agree with you all the way, other than that. SendGrid made a great case for departing with Ms. Richards and I think it's pretty clear that her role as a developer evangelist is certainly harmed and she can no longer continue in that role. It has nothing to do with gender, and it has nothing to do with her being offended by those comments, but it has everything to do with the poor way she handled calling out these guys and the fact that she cannot participate in a developer community without developers being fearful of how they conduct themselves within earshot of her (they weren't even talking to her!). [Edit: Downvoting this eh? If you downvote, you should really participate in the discussion and tell me why I might be wrong.]

benjiweber 14y ago
> Even though they have done nothing to deserve such backlash They fired an employee without due process. Apparently a knee-jerk reaction rather than considered disciplinary process. They capitulated to an anonymous DDOS. Even with a ridiculous demand. Giving the impression they were not technically able to bring the service back up by themselves. Neither of these gives me confidence in trusting SendGrid with email. The first makes me think they'll be happy doing rash and possibly illegal things like sending email data in response to a subpoena. The second makes me doubt their future reliability.
- jennyjenjen 14y ago
  > They fired an employee without due process. Apparently a knee-jerk reaction rather than considered disciplinary process. How do you know? Are you at SendGrid? Did you speak to Adria? Have you talked with the founders, CEO, legal counsel? Colorado, like California, is an employment-at-will state and has been since 1987. The employer may terminate an employee for a million reasons under the sun. IANAL but I think most other people who have been in the working world more than a few years understand what that means. In a way, I was incorrect... they did do a few things to deserve such backlash. They lacked tact in their initial posts about firing Ms. Richards. They should've led with the "Difficult Situation" post. If you read the post, which they finally churned out a few hours after declaring her employment terminated, you can see that it wasn't terribly rash. They certainly thought it out. Would you have held onto an employee you couldn't trust? As for their technical abilities, I'm not able to judge that - so you may be correct about such competencies. However, "due process" isn't necessarily for firing an employee in Colorado, and besides, we don't know what went on as this developed and how the company actually went about terminating Ms. Richards' employment. We may find that out soon.

_pmf_ 14y ago

> I'm honestly surprised that anyone is attacking Sendgrid, defending Ms Richards, attacking PyCon or defending Playhaven in this incident. Indeed. SendGrid did not have many options there. Playhaven, on the other side, could have dealt with the situation in a graceful and humane manner (absolutely nothing would have been lost if they just temporarily suspended the guy), but chose not to.

abcd_f 14y ago

> Some other commenters suggest Ms Richards can sue That will completely total what's left of her reputation and the re-employment perspectives. She appears to be a "people's person" thriving on social interaction, but nobody likes litigious persons.

oelmekki 14y ago

> Most people in the media (news readers and so forth) have a "morals clause" in their contract because they publicly represent the company. This situation is much the same. Indeed, community manager (call that evangelist if you want to) is a weird job. You're supposed to be social, natural - to be as you would be in private life. In cases like these, you're even supposed to use your own identity to support the brand : you are someone real, that get in touch with real people in the most friendly fashion. But you can't be yourself too much. That's a problem here, since you don't have any other "real" identity. You have to be the brand and as such, everything you do and say is backed up by the brand. Adria used her own personal twitter account to make her statement, that sounds legitimate. But developer has been fired because she had the weight of sendgrid brand. That's something very pervert in the community manager / evangelist job : you sell your social self (something I guess politicians know well). On a side note, I'm quite surprised this can happen in the US, which places free speech as the one and most important right. Not when related to business.

jennyjenjen 14y ago
Ah, two great points: 1) the difficulty / contradictions in community manager / evangelist jobs, and 2) free speech in the US. I am not sure where you are from - France, judging by the hour, grammar, punctuation? - but after living outside the US and having the luxury of observing my home country from the outside, I have found that free speech is not treated with as much value as we seem to claim. Some would say that free speech in the US is very much threatened nowadays.
- oelmekki 14y ago
  France indeed. And sorry for the grammar ;)
  - jennyjenjen 14y ago
    Not a bad thing; it is actually quite good. It is more that French speakers compose things certain ways :)
- 14y ago