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I really wish that this whole thing could have ended amicably (perhaps with Adria apologizing to the devs [by the way, the guy who was fired has already publicl

by blhack 14y ago

I really wish that this whole thing could have ended amicably (perhaps with Adria apologizing to the devs [by the way, the guy who was fired has already publicly apologized]). It's too bad that sendgrid had to fire her, I would never wish that somebody had their livlihood taken from them like that, but her job was to be a developer evangelist, which is a job she isn't realistically capable of performing anymore. I would feel really uncomfortable if I was in the same room as this person. What if I accidentally say something that she finds offensive? Am I next? And honestly, she can't even function as a sort of "women's tech evangelist" anymore. Most [all, actually] of the women I've talked to about this are furious with her over how badly this portrays women. It sucks...but this is on par with firing a dev who can't program.

monksy 14y ago
When you double down you stand to lose even more. She played the game, she knew the rules, and she lost.
danilocampos 14y ago
> (perhaps with Adria apologizing to the devs). What, exactly, has she to apologize for? The people in question were speaking like they were in a frat house in direct contravention of a code of conduct they'd agreed to. They had the right to speak. And Adria had the right to tweet. If they didn't like being publicly outed for saying this stuff, guess what? All they had to do was shut their mouths. > What if I accidentally say something that she finds offensive? Am I next? Really? How does that work? You trip over a garbage can and a lewd joke reflexively pops out? How does accidental immature behavior work?
- niggler 14y ago
  People want Adria to apologize for actions that were outside of her control (like the guys getting fired). If anything, the overreaction by everyone involved merely proves that the issue of gender in the industry is still significant.
  - WalterSear 14y ago
    They want her to apologize for inappropriately publicly shaming them, and the actions that resulted from that.
    - niggler 14y ago
      " the actions that resulted from that." The actions that resulted from that were the employers' fault. If she claimed they molested her (which is illegal and can result in jail time) when they didn't, then you have a point. But the comment they made was uncontested and the employer decided, for a multitude of reasons including the recent matter, to let the guy go. What if the employer was ready to fire him already, and this was the straw that broke the camel's back? Is it her fault that he was on thin ice to begin with?
      - WalterSear 14y ago
        The difference is the one between negligence and manslaughter. If your negligent actions result in something else down the line, you are still, in part, responsible. There can, and usually is, more than 100% blame to go around.
        niggler 14y ago
        She wrote: "I'm sorry to hear your employer deciding to not to work with you on this and I hope they reconsider, bring you back on and dealing with it constructively." (emphasis mine) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5399047 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5399047 I think that's the most we can expect from her regarding the guy getting fired. She didn't fire him, and she clearly expressed that she didn't think he should have been fired over this.
        Dylan16807 14y ago
        I agree entirely that that's the most we can expect regarding the firing. But that post has no apology for the public shaming.
- fatjokes 14y ago
  > And Adria had the right to tweet. Adria as an individual, yes. Adria as a developer evangelist? No. Her role is to speak for the company, and no company should resort to public shaming and cyber bullying.
  - niggler 14y ago
    Was she tweeting from a personal or company account?
    - blhack 14y ago
      From her account associated with sendgrid: https://twitter.com/adriarichards https://twitter.com/adriarichards
      - niggler 14y ago
        She says she works for SendGrid but I thought people usually use a separate corporate twitter account (or set up a different one for those issues)
        jkrems 14y ago
        One of the minor side-problems in this story: social media blurs the line between "personal" and "professional"/"company" communication. If you use your twitter account to network with people working at other companies, in your role as a developer evangelist, your personal account somehow turns partly into a company account. Side note: She also tweeted "SendGrid supports me", which is a direct claim that her behavior is in line with company policy.
    - WalterSear 14y ago
      The same one she sent this joke about sexual humiliation from: https://twitter.com/adriarichards/status/312265091791847425 https://twitter.com/adriarichards/status/312265091791847425 And the company she was envangelising for on that twitter feed thinks that a visual joke about photocopying your genitals is not inappropriate for their jobs pages: http://i.imgur.com/uWc8P39.png http://i.imgur.com/uWc8P39.png I understand that speaker and context make all the difference, but she made a joke about sexual humiliation, and then, at the same conference, got offended by a joke comparing dongles to genitals.
- blhack 14y ago
  Do you actually know what the guys said? They made a joke about the word "dong" sounding like the word "dongle". If this is what you think a frat house sounds like, you are very mistaken. That this is considered a faux pas is more politically correct than any office I've ever heard of.
  - danilocampos 14y ago
    > Do you actually know what the guys said? I can assure you I know substantially more on this than you do. People have a right to attend a conference without sexual jokes leaking into their ears while they attend a talk. It's as simple as that. Should the guy have been fired? No. Should he have been talking like that? No.
    - blhack 14y ago
      >I can assure you I know substantially more on this than you do. Well then do enlighten the class.
      - danilocampos 14y ago
        If you had the empathy or personal context to understand what happened here, how these situations work, and how disempowering the behavior can feel, we wouldn't be having this conversation in the first place. No amount of my arguing with you on Hacker News will change that.
        anigbrowl 14y ago
        Danilo, following up an argument from authority with an ad hominem attack is not constructive either.
        danilocampos 14y ago
        It wasn't argument from authority – it was a response to a question as to whether I knew what these people said. I do. And it's not ad hominem to say there's no point to the conversation based on missing context. I'm reminded of when McCoy wanted to discuss death with Spock: "It would be impossible to discuss the subject without a common frame of reference." ... "You mean I have to die in order to discuss your insights on death?" For reasons I won't speculate upon, OP seems to believe it's impossible Adria knows anything about github, for example. I don't think there's anything constructive to be said to that.
- str8gk 14y ago
  idiot
- ajross 14y ago
  Sigh. Can't everyone in question here be a jerk? We have two sexist/innapropriate developers; one stressed out evangelist who overreacted and innapropriately tweeted a photo; one employer who (apparently, there is STILL no evidence for this fact beyond the anonymous pastebin!) fired one of the first guys on questionable evidence; uncounted hordes of almost-exclusively-male internet users with crystal clear (yet routinely undersupported and self-contradictory) opinions about it, and another employer who fired the evangelist based on said freakout. Good grief. Can't we all just grow up a little? Without exception, everyone involved (and that includes you, and probably half this thread) needs to apologize to everyone else. I feel sad.
  - niggler 14y ago
    "here is STILL no evidence for this fact beyond the anonymous pastebin" Exactly! The employer may have been itching for a reason to fire the guy, and this proved convenient.
  - Nrsolis 14y ago
    The sad truth is that grown people acting like children is far more common than you'd expect. This is not a phenomenon exclusive to the technology industry. Whether it's fashionistas, dock-workers, or politicos, people will be people. In short: childish, immature, vindictive, and petty. There was plenty to go around here.
    - incongruity 14y ago
      Indeed. I'm just disappointed, all around. I respect the handling by PyCon staff/volunteers (who didn't kick anyone out, but supported keeping PyCon a welcoming, comfortable environment), but beyond that, I feel like this whole incident has just shown us how bad people can act.
  - masklinn 14y ago
    > We have two sexist/innapropriate developers Inappropriate yes, sexist no (a "dongle" private joke can hardly be construed as sexist, seriously). > one employer who (apparently, there is STILL no evidence for this fact beyond the anonymous pastebin!) fired one of the first guys on questionable evidence Apparently? A blog post from their CEO not evidence enough: http://blog.playhaven.com/addressing-pycon/ http://blog.playhaven.com/addressing-pycon/? Also fired developer commented quite extensively on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=mr-hank https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=mr-hank > and another employer who fired the evangelist based on said freakout. Probably less over the freakout and more over the DDOS they've been under since some of the "uncounted hordes" have decided the best response to mob justice was mob justice, SendGrid'd been unavailable for hours.
- beachstartup 14y ago
  How does accidental immature behavior work? "let's check out this pitch and then grab a beer" at a startup VC pitch event sensitive woman in front of you hears: "let's check out of this bitch and grab a beer" turns around, pics, tweets, gets you fired on the spot. HOW IS THIS OKAY? public shaming is NOT the right response. IT'S JUST NOT. what a stunning lack of imagination.
  - danilocampos 14y ago
    So, here's the problem with your little fantasy: These guys were actually making sexual jokes. This wasn't a single mis-heard phrase.
    - derleth 14y ago
      Sexual and sexist are only the same if you believe women are chaste, which is horrendously sexist.
    - blhack 14y ago
      Yes, actually there was. One of the things that she was upset about was what she perceived to be a sexual joke about the word "fork" sounding like "fuck". What she didn't understand (since she's not a developer, and probably isn't exposed to these things) is that "fork" is a reference to "git fork". And if you were to read the follow ups from the guys who were shamed over their oh-so-offensive discussion of dongles and code management, you would see that "fork" was an in joke between them. "Fork" in this context meaning a form of flattery. For instance "Danilo is a good developer; I'd for his repo". There is NOTHING sexual about this, but you might not know that if you're not a person who uses git. Which is exactly what happened.
      - danilocampos 14y ago
        > There is NOTHING sexual about this, but you might not know that if you're not a person who uses git. I think I'm beginning to understand more about the underlying assumptions that form your worldview. https://github.com/adriarichards https://github.com/adriarichards
- andrewguenther 14y ago
  Adria had no reason to publicly shame these two guys, that behavior is unacceptable. If she had a problem with their behavior, she should have reported it to the Pycon organizers directly and that should have ended it. None of this should have ever left Pycon.
- Zikes 14y ago
  > speaking like they were in a frat house > How does accidental immature behavior work? Something like that, I suppose.
- jedberg 14y ago
  Actually, her tweeting was also in violation of the PSF Code of Conduct, so she's equally guilty in that sense.
- mtoddh 14y ago
  If they didn't like being publicly outed for saying this stuff, guess what? All they had to do was shut their mouths. Well if it makes you feel any better, I'm willing to bet that going forward more male developers will in fact be "shutting their mouths" when there's a female around.
- bratsche 14y ago
  You're looking at this really single-mindedly though. Yes, there are always repercussions for anything you say depending on who the audience is. The guys who made these jokes within earshot of Adria learned this. Now Adria is learning this after shaming them on the entire Internet. It kind of comes down to what is a reasonable response, and it seems that's what 50% of the Internet disagrees with. If someone makes an offensive joke near you, we hopefully agree that you can't turn around and shoot that person in the face. We hopefully agree that you can't turn around and punch that person in the face. Calling the conference organizers and reporting them and having them kicked out doesn't seem unreasonable, but going out of your way to shame them on Twitter and a blog does. That just seems like overkill to me. That overkill, at least as I see it, is the thing that perhaps she might apologize for.
- rdtsc 14y ago
  Really Danilo? You don't see anything wrong with what she did? This is OK. Next time you are at PyCon people can take face shots of your, post them online, with stupid childish insults underneath to see like "ass clown". It is really sad that you don't see why that might create a hostile and unwelcome environment. Notice, not as many condemn her for _PRIVATELY_ notifying organizers. That is event #1, event #2 was that she publicly posted her tweet. That is not OK and it is sad to see you condone and defend that. PSF has also been hiding in the weeds with event #2. They issued a neutral statement about #1 and then a surreptitious Github update to their policy to include some of what happened. If this was a groping incident and all they did was made a Github commit, there would be a shitstorm 10x this one. But public face picture posting with insulting tags, for friends, kids, employers, to see, essentially forever is OK. I've said it before and will repeat myself again, unless PyCon organizers issue a condemning statement I will not be coming to PyCon. It is a hostile environment and I don't feel safe.
- eropple 14y ago
  Danilo, I want to preface this with a note that I respect the hell out of you and I think you're coming at this from a good place, but I think you're mischaracterizing the argument that disagrees with you (at least, for some people, I don't claim to speak for everybody). From where I stand, it appears that very few people are mad that she said "hey, PyCon, these guys are being annoying, can you send somebody over?". (And that the people who are mad at that look like crazy people.) That's a good thing to do. I, at least, am 100% on board with this. Here's my hangup. I will under no circumstances claim that privilege is not a very real thing and it needs to be considered; my posting history here will bear out that I'm usually saying it does and needs to be. And I'm not even against public shaming as a concept - sometimes, it's the only tool left in the box. But I don't think that's the case here, and I read the backlash to this situation as people getting pissed because somebody with a lot of social influence decided to use it like a magnifying glass to burn some ants. She has (had) power and she has (had) standing that they didn't. She was able to--and, I don't think it's unfair to say, did--point at them to many, many people, and attack them in a way that they can't even respond to effectively, let alone defend themselves if she happened to be wrong (and there's sufficient churn among the stories going back and forth that that's a possibility that needs to be considered). That, I do think, deserves an apology. And a real one.
- oneweekwonder 14y ago
  Can you tell me what they said. All I can find is something about forking and dongle? Because it just seems to me like hearsay.
- tzs 14y ago
  The dongle remark was less sexual than many jokes on children's cartoons on Nickelodeon or on prime time sitcoms on network television. This is orders of magnitude below "lewd" or "frat house" level. You'd have a hard time getting even far right conservative family groups to get worked up over it.
salman89 14y ago
"I would feel really uncomfortable if I was in the same room as this person. What if I accidentally say something that she finds offensive? Am I next?" I'm not agreeing with anything Adria did, but the issue of being labeled as the "tattletale" probably plays a big part in most women's reluctance to report real harassment.
- niggler 14y ago
  "the issue of being labeled as the "tattletale" probably plays a big part in most women's reluctance to report real harassment." This isn't just in tech. Some females testified before congress that the same problem was happening in the military, and there the senior officer is given precedence due to his position
- Goronmon 14y ago
  I'm not agreeing with anything Adria did, but the issue of being labeled as the "tattletale" probably plays a big part in most women's reluctance to report real harassment. But there is a big difference between mentioning something to someone or someone's boss in private, and posting about it on Twitter with a picture attached.
  - CptCodeMonkey 14y ago
    But everyone else seems to like a good pitchfork witch hunt!
    - WalterSear 14y ago
      There's must be a way to monetize this, turn it into an industry, or at least, a full time career.
      - benologist 14y ago
        Mashable just did!
        14y ago
itsprofitbaron 14y ago
In response to the dev on HN 2 days ago, Adria said[1]: "I'm sorry to hear your employer deciding to not to work with you on this and I hope they reconsider, bring you back on and dealing with it constructively" [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5399047 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5399047
- pekk 14y ago
  "See you next year." Understood meaning: I am right, you are wrong, you are eating crow; after I publicly bullied you and got you fired, you are not getting away from me.
  - untog 14y ago
    What? I'm sorry, but if you can interpret a phrase like "See you next year" in that way then it might be worth speaking to a professional.
    - eropple 14y ago
      I'm of two minds here. Normally, I would agree that it's an innocuous thing to say; I mean, I use the phrase all the time at conferences! That said, I am not so sanguine here; between Ms. Richards's bad faith actions (and you may disagree that she dealt with them in bad faith and that's fine) and her non-apology (I think this is fairly inarguable), I think that it's not unreasonable to infer a negative connotation to the phrase. Especially if you look at it from that dude's perspective, where a not-unreasonable reading might be "she started a massive shitstorm over a joke that could offend a hypothetical person and now I'm fired and why would I ever want to see her again?". Context does matter.
      - itsprofitbaron 14y ago
        FWIW I think that the "See you next year" comment was in response to the fact that he (the guy who was fired) said he will be at pycon in 2014[1] and before stating his side of the story, he said that he defended her position[1]: "First of all I'd like to say I'm sorry. I really did not mean to offend anyone and I really do regret the comment and how it made Adria feel. She had every right to report me to staff, and I defend her position" [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5398681 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5398681 (As I mentioned earlier this also includes his side of the story)
SODaniel 14y ago
I feel the same way. I think that if she had just apologized early and clearly for her lack of judgement and maybe just called up the company that fired the guy they could have made a deal and shaken hands. Now she has lost her job at Sendgrid and is almost certainly not going to be able to be a 'evangelist' that anyone takes seriously.
shardling 14y ago
>I would feel really uncomfortable if I was in the same room as this person. What if I accidentally say something that she finds offensive? Am I next? Next to what? Adria didn't fire anyone...
- _ak 14y ago
  Shamed publicly, slandered, etc.?
  - ceol 14y ago
    Because Adria is the only person who has the power to shame someone publicly? She's the only one with 9,000 twitter followers, she's the only one with a camera phone, and she's the only one who can upload photos to twitter? I find the concern of being in the same room as her incredibly stupid.
    - doktrin 14y ago
      She's someone with a history of senseless public shaming, and apparently a fair bit of grandstanding [1] You're entitled to your opinion, of course, but what's being discussed here isn't the ability to perform an action but the willingness to do so on a whim. [1] http://amandablumwords.wordpress.com/2013/03/21/3/ http://amandablumwords.wordpress.com/2013/03/21/3/
    - katbyte 14y ago
      I don't have twitter, Facebook etc. Even if i did i doubt i would have that many followers because i don't find any appeal in it. I could not reach the audience she did. I do not have the power to easily shame someone publicly. I think that goes for most people. I would be concerned and i'm female. What if i disagree with her? Its not stupid, its cautious.
      - ceol 14y ago
        Anyone can easily reach the same audience by creating a twitter account and tagging it with something popular. I'm sure there were plenty of people in that conference with way more followers. You should be more afraid at the veritable brigade of angry internet-goers who were stirred up to the point of DDoS'ing her ex-employer and harassing her. But no, focus on the woman who posted a single photograph on her twitter feed. I'm sure she's more dangerous.
kalkin 14y ago
A bunch of sexist loons attack somebody, and the right thing to do is fire her because it proves she isn't a good evangelist anymore? Seems to me that's awarding a really dangerous amount of power to sexist loons on the Internet. ... I suppose I should defend the "sexist loons" label. It would be one thing if people were attacking PlayHaven. They're the ones who made the decision to overreact to Adria's post and fire the guy - a decision she apparently disagreed with. That people got mad at Adria, rather than the folks with hiring & firing power, is, well, weird at best. And if you read the comment threads (like the one on SendGrid's Facebook post), it becomes clear that the explanation for a lot of the weirdness that a bunch of men have deep-seated grievances against "feminists". For people who are saying she deserved to be fired because she linked John Scalzi's post - http://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/05/15/straight-white-male-the-lowest-difficulty-setting-there-is/ http://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/05/15/straight-white-male-th... - this is clearly not about free speech or privacy. And the rage level against Adria would be way lower without those people.
- andrewguenther 14y ago
  While none of us can say for sure what SendGrid's exact reasons were for firing her, I don't think the "sexist loons" are it. While representing her employer at a conference, she unnecessarily publicly shamed two developers. Like I've said before, none of this should have ever left Pycon. Then (and what I think was the nail in the coffin) she made her "my employer supports me" tweet. SendGrid had made no comment about the incident, and now she has directly connected them to it. So now, claiming she has SendGrid's support, in her capacity as a developer evangelist, she has publicly shamed two people in the demographic her position requires her to build relations with. That is what I think proved she is not a good evangelist anymore.
  - kalkin 14y ago
    We don't know what SendGrid told her before she made that Tweet. Absent the firing, I'd have assumed they told her they supported her, and even now I think it's a reasonably likely possibility. Beyond that, I'm torn between two responses. On the one hand, her post may have been an overreaction, but I don't think its indefensible. If you say something offensive in public, it's not a huge escalation for somebody to post on social media, "hey this guy said something offensive". It's the firing that's the big escalation, and that's all on PlayHaven - it's not like Adria even called for it, let alone had the power to enact it. On the other hand, I think that's almost irrelevant, because it's naive to believe that SendGrid's firing decision was made on the merits of her actions, absent the context of all the Internet outrage. If they think she can't do her job anymore, it's because a bunch of people "in the demographic her position requires her to build relations with" get really bizarrely enraged when a woman asks them to change their behavior, and SendGrid was feeling the heat. It's not because she demonstrated such bad judgment that a reasonable person couldn't trust her decision-making ever again.
vertis 14y ago
>> And honestly, she can't even function as a sort of "women's tech evangelist" anymore. Most [all, actually] of the women I've talked to about this are furious with her over how badly this portrays women. Needs references.
- heili 14y ago
  I think the 'You're not helping' meme is pretty damn apropos here and I am a software engineer who happens to be female. I'm not furious at her, because she's not high enough on my radar to actually incite 'fury', but I do think she's an idiot and that her actions are likely to cause the exact opposite response than the one she claims to have intended. Oh and I also don't really find my field to be inherently sexist just because it's mostly men and there are a lot of dick jokes. I happen to like it that way, and much like every guy with some chops I've always been treated with respect due to my own abilities. They do expect me to actually have ability to be part of the group, but that's hardly unreasonable.
ericabiz 14y ago
> "Most [all, actually] of the women I've talked to about this are furious with her over how badly this portrays women." Okay, time to speak up! Hi, I'm a woman in tech. And this upset me, but not for the reasons you think. I agree that Adria went too far in publicly Tweeting and "name and shaming" these guys. But the vitriol and hate that has spewed forth online to her is what takes my breath away. Comments calling her a "cunt" and saying she should be raped (this I found on her blog, presumably before she had a chance to delete it.) As a woman in tech, I deal with sexism all the time. And it's usually not blatant, "blah blah a woman's place is in the home get out of my office" type of stuff. That's egregious and I would shut that down. It's usually less obvious. Like the guy at a conference I went to recently (with my fiance, Brian) who asked me my name, asked Brian his name, and then proceeded to spend 10 minutes talking to Brian and trying to figure out why he (who is a front-end developer at a startup) was at an entrepreneurial conference. My fiance: I'm here because of Erica. (points at me) Guy: Oh. But I don't get it. Why are you here? Brian: She comes here because she's a successful entrepreneur and likes to hang out with other entrepreneurs. I'm tagging along with her. Guy: Oh. But you're not an entrepreneur...so why are you here? This went on like this for several minutes. Dude never said a single word to me, and finally wandered off, confused. Or a more recent scenario at SXSW where I was talking to a huge, well-known tech big-wig (founder of a multi-billion-dollar tech company) who proceeded to make a flippant, condescending remark about his wife--and then stared at me, the only woman nearby, to gauge my reaction. Borderline sexist, but definitely unprofessional. What do I do? Do I call him out by name? Right now it's been a week and I'm still working out the best course of action. I'm horribly disappointed because this is someone I looked up to and hoped to have as a mentor. These are just recent examples. I am hard-pressed to name a conference I've attended where one of these "borderline" sexist issues hasn't happened. Oh, wait, I can...the coworking conference I recently attended, where nearly 50% of the attendees were women. Was Adria's reaction, to this as an isolated event, out of hand? Yes. But when this happens to you every single day--and in her case, multiple times a day!--sometimes you can't take it anymore and you just snap. I get where she's coming from, even if I wouldn't have done the same thing in her situation. This doesn't portray women as badly as it portrays our entire tech culture badly. It's as frustrating to me as it is to anyone else. The blatant sexism is mostly gone, but the undertones remain. And that makes it harder than ever to gauge what the "right" reaction is as a woman when one of these events happens around you.
raganwald 14y ago
I would feel really uncomfortable if I was in the same room as this person. What if I accidentally say something that she finds offensive? Am I next? People say the same things all the time in companies where women complain about inappropriate sexuality. "What if I say something that offends her?" Most of us are good, inoffensive people. We are saddled with growing up in a world that is changing. It used to be acceptable to have a topless woman on a calendar in your locker at the factory. Not any more. Men used to take each other to strip clubs for business entertaining. Not outside of Oracle. We all deal with the fact that we're in the middle of change, and it isn't always comfortable. Just as it wasn't comfortable for people dealing with the acceptance of homosexuals: I think everyone accepts that the word "faggot" is no longer appropriate. It would be far, far easier for everyone if they just, well, shut up. But these things are hard, and it's up to our generation to carve out new social norms so that our children will reflexively and automatically act in ways that don't offend anyone. I feel for you, there's absolutely zero wrong with you having and expressing these concerns. My message to you is that we men can come together and support each other and be a generation that others look back on with respect, just as we look back on the generations that broke the colour barriers with respect.
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  - raganwald 14y ago
    Reminder: She didn't "get anyone fired." Two employers chose to fire employees.
    - deleted 14y ago
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  - rmc 14y ago
    The problem here is that the jokes were so innocuous that it would be difficult to tell just what would set her off and potentially get you fired. It's very easy actually. Sexuality jokes. That's it.
RougeFemme 14y ago
I'm a woman in tech. I think she can continue to function as a women's tech evangelist. Yes, there are women who are furious with her, but there are also plenty of women who have been in her corner, whether or not they agree with how she handled the situation. And for a lot of the women who've been on the fence since all of this exploded, this firing will probably push them into her corner. Loss of credibility as a dev evangelist? I'll buy that to a large degree. Loss of credibility as a women's tech evangelist? Probably not as much as you think.
JohnBooty 14y ago
> I would feel really uncomfortable if I was in the same > room as this person. What if I accidentally say > something that she finds offensive? Am I next? I wouldn't feel uncomfortable around her at all, because I find it very easy to avoid saying sexually inappropriate things to women I don't know. I have quite an off-color sense of humor myself. I joke a lot and a lot of those jokes involve sex, bodily functions, and imagery many might find disturbing. And yet I have no problem restricting this kind of humor to friendships and relationships where we've established the fact that both parties find that kind of humor funny. It just honestly doesn't seem difficult to me, and I'm not a genius.
- misnome 14y ago
  What about cases where you think it's just you and your friends joking between each other, and someone overhears, takes a picture of you and then publicly crucifies you online?
  - rmc 14y ago
    Well if you're at a conference with a publicised Code of Conduct that says no sexuality jokes, then... well... maybe don't do it there? They literally wrote it down.
    - _ak 14y ago
      Yes, and the situation on the conference was reported to the conference staff, the people involved were talked to, and the situation was resolved. Or so, it seems. Then Aria continued her public shaming, and the whole thing escalated.
  - JohnBooty 14y ago
    This hasn't ever been an issue for me. I understand that when I'm seated at a conference, the people around me can hear what I'm saying, and adjust the volume of my voice and/or the content of my speech accordingly. > ...and someone overhears, takes a picture of you > and then publicly crucifies you online? The guy's actions and Adria's actions are two separate things, really. I'd still be in the wrong for subjecting a stranger to an unwanted series of sexual jokes, whether they handled it poorly or they handled it in a really outstanding way. I'm not sure what you're getting at. It's okay to say whatever you want if the other person responds poorly?
mwetzler 14y ago
> the women I've talked to about this are furious with her This doesn't represent the views of all women in tech. What happened to Adria could happen to any of us outspoken women. She didn't handle the situation perfectly, but there's no way she could have known this would unfold in this way. She said she didn't want the guy to get fired and apologized to him. I'm horrified by what happened to her and now afraid the same could happen to me. None of us should have to be afraid that a tweet like that could get someone fired, provoke threats, or warrant attacks on our companies. The nature of the attacks against Adria are EXTREMELY misogynistic (rape threats, death threats, people calling her a c_nt, b_tch, wh_re, etc) and many people have taken up a "burn her at the stake" mentality. They've also pulled into question her professional credibility and called her an affirmative action hire. They are saying this kind of behavior should be expected from someone with the domain "butyouragirl". There is a simply an undue level of hatred for Adria which is correlated to her gender, I think in large part because she is an outspoken feminist. I'm trying to be more outspoken about gender bias I encounter in the workplace, but incidents like this are a terrifying reminder of why that can be dangerous. I'm not mad at Adria. The larger and more striking problem is how much hatred for women exists in this community and how threatening that feels. If anything good came of this, it's that these biases are now coming to a head, right out in the open for all to see.
- doktrin 14y ago
  I agree with a lot of the sentiment you've expressed, so I want to share my perspective. > She said she didn't want the guy to get fired and apologized to him. She may have expressed sympathy, but she did not apologize. An apology may have gone a long way at stemming this disaster, but that's speculation at this point. > I'm horrified by what happened to her and now afraid the same could happen to me. Likewise, I'm horrified what happened to the men involved could happen to me. From everything I've read (which is not all-inclusive), their comments occurred in a 1-1 conversation during a loud presentation. Moreover, frankly, it was innocuous if vaguely inappropriate. The dongle joke was not beyond the pale. It was not a firing offense, and it certainly did not deserve anyone's face being blasted all over Twitter along with harassment allegations. Rest assured, we're all quite paranoid as a result of this. >The nature of the attacks against Adria are EXTREMELY misogynistic (rape threats, death threats, people calling her a c_nt, b_tch, wh_re, etc) and many people have taken up a "burn her at the stake" mentality. They've also pulled into question her professional credibility and called her an affirmative action hire. They are saying this kind of behavior should be expected from someone with the domain "butyouragirl". While I haven't spent much time on Twitter, I don't think it's really fair to draw a line between some of the extreme views voiced there and the tech community. This transcended tech very quickly, and never recovered. My sense is that many of the most vocal contributors to the discussion arrived at it second hand. > I'm not mad at Adria. The larger and more striking problem is how much hatred for women exists in this community and how threatening that feels. I may be blind to this as I'm not a woman, but I honestly don't perceive hatred towards women in the tech community. The Twitter & internet mob response should not be taken to represent this community. It [tech] may be flawed, there may even be overlap, but they are not one and the same.
rorrr 14y ago
She deserved to get fired. She made up a bullshit story that got a developer fired.
rmc 14y ago
I would feel really uncomfortable if I was in the same room as this person. What if I accidentally say something that she finds offensive? Am I next? Here's a hint: Don't make dick jokes. Don't belittle and exclude women and other minorities. Be a decent human. You'll be fine.
nashadelic 14y ago
We are now going to penalize people for standing up for themselves? She faced sexist remarks, she shamed them. Good on her. I'm an outside observer and I've never been to the valley but SendGrid comes off as irresponsible and not backing up their people. > What if I Accidentally say something she finds offensive Accidentally offensive? Like calling someone a nigger? Or a faggot? And at the same time you make it sound their fault for making you "next". If you say something. Own up it. Anyone could qoute you. If you're uncomfortable with that you better watch what you say in public.
- thedudemabry 14y ago
  Whoa, whoa. I'm not disagreeing with your sentiments, but an off-color joke does not equal hate speech. Let's keep unnecessary hyperbole out of this, please.
- katbyte 14y ago
  I don't think anyone would have blamed her if they insulted her, It wasn't an insult, it wasn't directed at her.; It was said to his friend unaware she was listening and she was offended. There's a difference there.
jurassic 14y ago
>> And honestly, she can't even function as a sort of "women's tech evangelist" anymore. Most [all, actually] of the women I've talked to about this are furious with her over how badly this portrays women. Female here. I'm a newbie in this field coming from science -- another male-dominated arena. My takeaway is that while I would not have a problem interacting with Adria I don't think I'd want to work at a place where top male talent is being repulsed by her actions or reputation. As a junior dev, I want to work with and learn from the best team that'll have me. That makes her a liability. I do wish she'd handled everything differently. Women shouldn't freak when men say man things to other men, and even if you are offended you should just speak up for yourself and say so. This gives everyone a chance to behave properly without escalation. Most guys actually aren't jerks, they just lack self-awareness. Women in tech should not behave as damsels in distress who cry out for help (to twitter) and need shining knights (pycon organizers) to intervene in minor situations like this. Take back the locus of control and own the situation.
Steuard 14y ago
"Most [all, actually] of the women I've talked to about this are furious with her over how badly this portrays women." And I'm furious with how badly the comments here and elsewhere portray men. The worst are the threats of violence that I've heard that she's gotten, of course. I know that's a minority behavior, but we can't kid ourselves: the people making those threats are only comfortable doing so because they see the rest of the community as being "on their side". Women (and men!) need to speak up when they see manifestations of the culture that continues to drive women away from tech. Would I have made the same judgement in this case? Maybe not. But we need to find some way of changing the "bro" culture on display here, and I can't really blame her for trying. "What if I accidentally say something that she finds offensive? Am I next?" If 1) you choose to say something 2) in a public place that 3) your employer considers grounds for termination, I think you should probably be worried no matter who's in the room. I personally don't think that public shaming is the best way to respond to low-level offenses as in this case (but then, I really wouldn't fire someone over it: that seems like 100x as much of an overreaction). Nevertheless, it's unreasonable to expect in this day and age that transgressions in public will always go unnoticed. If you knowingly say something that you deserve to be fired for, it's not the photographer's fault when it happens.
jordo37 14y ago
Not sure what subset of women you are talking with, but there seem to be plenty of women (and men! myself included)[1] who are definitely not furious with Adria over this, and instead are standing up with her. I feel bad the guy got fired, but the mass pandemonium and hateful comments being produced by the internet at large is simply disgusting. [1]https://twitter.com/search?q=%23supportadria https://twitter.com/search?q=%23supportadria
jami 14y ago
I would not have reacted the same way in this set of circumstances -- I feel sort of bad for those dudes wondering why their picture was being taken -- but I am far from "furious" with Adria. I will, on the other hand, never do business with SendGrid. I worked with a bright, lovely young woman who had taken two terms of Java, with an eye toward a CS degree. One of her professors told her in office hours that she smelled really good. So she was doing marketing. Little creep-outs can have a huge impact, and you will unfortunately find so many of them in nearly every tech setting that if you hang in there, you just get accustomed to saying nothing. But saying nothing is not the ideal course of action, because based on the numbers, lots of women don't hang in there. Adria is right that the little girl on the slide might never make it to PyCon (in a dev role...) if things stay the same. Imagine if roles were reversed, and lucrative, enjoyable, interesting jobs were mostly held by straight women, and every time you went to a professional conference, you had to endure non sequitur pictures of men in bikinis, and uninformed, under-dressed plastic booth bros, and people assuming you're an uninformed booth bro no matter how you look, and the after-party at a male strip club, and countless unattractive old women chatting you up when you'd rather write code and all manner of little, alienating crap. In this bizarro world, you would likely not believe the sense of relief when another man spoke up about all this stuff that had gone unquestioned. Your comment about feeling uncomfortable around Adria is ironic, given that feeling uncomfortable is exactly what Adria was trying, however imperfectly, to fix. Unfortunately, the comfort of straight white men has again ruled the day, and SendGrid fired a black woman to preserve it. I hope she finds a truly wonderful lawyer.
KuraFire 14y ago
> I would feel really uncomfortable if I was in the same room as this person. What if I accidentally say something that she finds offensive? Am I next? Think of the backlash against her that happened. Think what she and other women might feel being in a room full of Hacker News & Reddit tech guys, _some_ of whom having made threats. "I would feel really uncomfortable if I was in the same room as $UsernameWhoWasThreateningAdria. What if I do something that upsets him? Is he going to rape or kill me next?" Your legitimate concern over getting reprimanded is not on the same scale at all to the concerns others might have because of the culture being perpetuated here.

by blhack 14y ago

monksy 14y ago

When you double down you stand to lose even more. She played the game, she knew the rules, and she lost.

danilocampos 14y ago

> (perhaps with Adria apologizing to the devs). What, exactly, has she to apologize for? The people in question were speaking like they were in a frat house in direct contravention of a code of conduct they'd agreed to. They had the right to speak. And Adria had the right to tweet. If they didn't like being publicly outed for saying this stuff, guess what? All they had to do was shut their mouths. > What if I accidentally say something that she finds offensive? Am I next? Really? How does that work? You trip over a garbage can and a lewd joke reflexively pops out? How does accidental immature behavior work?

niggler 14y ago
People want Adria to apologize for actions that were outside of her control (like the guys getting fired). If anything, the overreaction by everyone involved merely proves that the issue of gender in the industry is still significant.
- WalterSear 14y ago
  They want her to apologize for inappropriately publicly shaming them, and the actions that resulted from that.
  - niggler 14y ago
    " the actions that resulted from that." The actions that resulted from that were the employers' fault. If she claimed they molested her (which is illegal and can result in jail time) when they didn't, then you have a point. But the comment they made was uncontested and the employer decided, for a multitude of reasons including the recent matter, to let the guy go. What if the employer was ready to fire him already, and this was the straw that broke the camel's back? Is it her fault that he was on thin ice to begin with?
    - WalterSear 14y ago
      The difference is the one between negligence and manslaughter. If your negligent actions result in something else down the line, you are still, in part, responsible. There can, and usually is, more than 100% blame to go around.
      - niggler 14y ago
        She wrote: "I'm sorry to hear your employer deciding to not to work with you on this and I hope they reconsider, bring you back on and dealing with it constructively." (emphasis mine) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5399047 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5399047 I think that's the most we can expect from her regarding the guy getting fired. She didn't fire him, and she clearly expressed that she didn't think he should have been fired over this.
        Dylan16807 14y ago
        I agree entirely that that's the most we can expect regarding the firing. But that post has no apology for the public shaming.
fatjokes 14y ago
> And Adria had the right to tweet. Adria as an individual, yes. Adria as a developer evangelist? No. Her role is to speak for the company, and no company should resort to public shaming and cyber bullying.
- niggler 14y ago
  Was she tweeting from a personal or company account?
  - blhack 14y ago
    From her account associated with sendgrid: https://twitter.com/adriarichards https://twitter.com/adriarichards
    - niggler 14y ago
      She says she works for SendGrid but I thought people usually use a separate corporate twitter account (or set up a different one for those issues)
      - jkrems 14y ago
        One of the minor side-problems in this story: social media blurs the line between "personal" and "professional"/"company" communication. If you use your twitter account to network with people working at other companies, in your role as a developer evangelist, your personal account somehow turns partly into a company account. Side note: She also tweeted "SendGrid supports me", which is a direct claim that her behavior is in line with company policy.
  - WalterSear 14y ago
    The same one she sent this joke about sexual humiliation from: https://twitter.com/adriarichards/status/312265091791847425 https://twitter.com/adriarichards/status/312265091791847425 And the company she was envangelising for on that twitter feed thinks that a visual joke about photocopying your genitals is not inappropriate for their jobs pages: http://i.imgur.com/uWc8P39.png http://i.imgur.com/uWc8P39.png I understand that speaker and context make all the difference, but she made a joke about sexual humiliation, and then, at the same conference, got offended by a joke comparing dongles to genitals.
blhack 14y ago
Do you actually know what the guys said? They made a joke about the word "dong" sounding like the word "dongle". If this is what you think a frat house sounds like, you are very mistaken. That this is considered a faux pas is more politically correct than any office I've ever heard of.
- danilocampos 14y ago
  > Do you actually know what the guys said? I can assure you I know substantially more on this than you do. People have a right to attend a conference without sexual jokes leaking into their ears while they attend a talk. It's as simple as that. Should the guy have been fired? No. Should he have been talking like that? No.
  - blhack 14y ago
    >I can assure you I know substantially more on this than you do. Well then do enlighten the class.
    - danilocampos 14y ago
      If you had the empathy or personal context to understand what happened here, how these situations work, and how disempowering the behavior can feel, we wouldn't be having this conversation in the first place. No amount of my arguing with you on Hacker News will change that.
      - anigbrowl 14y ago
        Danilo, following up an argument from authority with an ad hominem attack is not constructive either.
        danilocampos 14y ago
        It wasn't argument from authority – it was a response to a question as to whether I knew what these people said. I do. And it's not ad hominem to say there's no point to the conversation based on missing context. I'm reminded of when McCoy wanted to discuss death with Spock: "It would be impossible to discuss the subject without a common frame of reference." ... "You mean I have to die in order to discuss your insights on death?" For reasons I won't speculate upon, OP seems to believe it's impossible Adria knows anything about github, for example. I don't think there's anything constructive to be said to that.
str8gk 14y ago
idiot
ajross 14y ago
Sigh. Can't everyone in question here be a jerk? We have two sexist/innapropriate developers; one stressed out evangelist who overreacted and innapropriately tweeted a photo; one employer who (apparently, there is STILL no evidence for this fact beyond the anonymous pastebin!) fired one of the first guys on questionable evidence; uncounted hordes of almost-exclusively-male internet users with crystal clear (yet routinely undersupported and self-contradictory) opinions about it, and another employer who fired the evangelist based on said freakout. Good grief. Can't we all just grow up a little? Without exception, everyone involved (and that includes you, and probably half this thread) needs to apologize to everyone else. I feel sad.
- niggler 14y ago
  "here is STILL no evidence for this fact beyond the anonymous pastebin" Exactly! The employer may have been itching for a reason to fire the guy, and this proved convenient.
- Nrsolis 14y ago
  The sad truth is that grown people acting like children is far more common than you'd expect. This is not a phenomenon exclusive to the technology industry. Whether it's fashionistas, dock-workers, or politicos, people will be people. In short: childish, immature, vindictive, and petty. There was plenty to go around here.
  - incongruity 14y ago
    Indeed. I'm just disappointed, all around. I respect the handling by PyCon staff/volunteers (who didn't kick anyone out, but supported keeping PyCon a welcoming, comfortable environment), but beyond that, I feel like this whole incident has just shown us how bad people can act.
- masklinn 14y ago
  > We have two sexist/innapropriate developers Inappropriate yes, sexist no (a "dongle" private joke can hardly be construed as sexist, seriously). > one employer who (apparently, there is STILL no evidence for this fact beyond the anonymous pastebin!) fired one of the first guys on questionable evidence Apparently? A blog post from their CEO not evidence enough: http://blog.playhaven.com/addressing-pycon/ http://blog.playhaven.com/addressing-pycon/? Also fired developer commented quite extensively on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=mr-hank https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=mr-hank > and another employer who fired the evangelist based on said freakout. Probably less over the freakout and more over the DDOS they've been under since some of the "uncounted hordes" have decided the best response to mob justice was mob justice, SendGrid'd been unavailable for hours.
beachstartup 14y ago
How does accidental immature behavior work? "let's check out this pitch and then grab a beer" at a startup VC pitch event sensitive woman in front of you hears: "let's check out of this bitch and grab a beer" turns around, pics, tweets, gets you fired on the spot. HOW IS THIS OKAY? public shaming is NOT the right response. IT'S JUST NOT. what a stunning lack of imagination.
- danilocampos 14y ago
  So, here's the problem with your little fantasy: These guys were actually making sexual jokes. This wasn't a single mis-heard phrase.
  - derleth 14y ago
    Sexual and sexist are only the same if you believe women are chaste, which is horrendously sexist.
  - blhack 14y ago
    Yes, actually there was. One of the things that she was upset about was what she perceived to be a sexual joke about the word "fork" sounding like "fuck". What she didn't understand (since she's not a developer, and probably isn't exposed to these things) is that "fork" is a reference to "git fork". And if you were to read the follow ups from the guys who were shamed over their oh-so-offensive discussion of dongles and code management, you would see that "fork" was an in joke between them. "Fork" in this context meaning a form of flattery. For instance "Danilo is a good developer; I'd for his repo". There is NOTHING sexual about this, but you might not know that if you're not a person who uses git. Which is exactly what happened.
    - danilocampos 14y ago
      > There is NOTHING sexual about this, but you might not know that if you're not a person who uses git. I think I'm beginning to understand more about the underlying assumptions that form your worldview. https://github.com/adriarichards https://github.com/adriarichards
andrewguenther 14y ago
Adria had no reason to publicly shame these two guys, that behavior is unacceptable. If she had a problem with their behavior, she should have reported it to the Pycon organizers directly and that should have ended it. None of this should have ever left Pycon.
Zikes 14y ago
> speaking like they were in a frat house > How does accidental immature behavior work? Something like that, I suppose.
jedberg 14y ago
Actually, her tweeting was also in violation of the PSF Code of Conduct, so she's equally guilty in that sense.
mtoddh 14y ago
If they didn't like being publicly outed for saying this stuff, guess what? All they had to do was shut their mouths. Well if it makes you feel any better, I'm willing to bet that going forward more male developers will in fact be "shutting their mouths" when there's a female around.
bratsche 14y ago
You're looking at this really single-mindedly though. Yes, there are always repercussions for anything you say depending on who the audience is. The guys who made these jokes within earshot of Adria learned this. Now Adria is learning this after shaming them on the entire Internet. It kind of comes down to what is a reasonable response, and it seems that's what 50% of the Internet disagrees with. If someone makes an offensive joke near you, we hopefully agree that you can't turn around and shoot that person in the face. We hopefully agree that you can't turn around and punch that person in the face. Calling the conference organizers and reporting them and having them kicked out doesn't seem unreasonable, but going out of your way to shame them on Twitter and a blog does. That just seems like overkill to me. That overkill, at least as I see it, is the thing that perhaps she might apologize for.
rdtsc 14y ago
Really Danilo? You don't see anything wrong with what she did? This is OK. Next time you are at PyCon people can take face shots of your, post them online, with stupid childish insults underneath to see like "ass clown". It is really sad that you don't see why that might create a hostile and unwelcome environment. Notice, not as many condemn her for _PRIVATELY_ notifying organizers. That is event #1, event #2 was that she publicly posted her tweet. That is not OK and it is sad to see you condone and defend that. PSF has also been hiding in the weeds with event #2. They issued a neutral statement about #1 and then a surreptitious Github update to their policy to include some of what happened. If this was a groping incident and all they did was made a Github commit, there would be a shitstorm 10x this one. But public face picture posting with insulting tags, for friends, kids, employers, to see, essentially forever is OK. I've said it before and will repeat myself again, unless PyCon organizers issue a condemning statement I will not be coming to PyCon. It is a hostile environment and I don't feel safe.
eropple 14y ago
Danilo, I want to preface this with a note that I respect the hell out of you and I think you're coming at this from a good place, but I think you're mischaracterizing the argument that disagrees with you (at least, for some people, I don't claim to speak for everybody). From where I stand, it appears that very few people are mad that she said "hey, PyCon, these guys are being annoying, can you send somebody over?". (And that the people who are mad at that look like crazy people.) That's a good thing to do. I, at least, am 100% on board with this. Here's my hangup. I will under no circumstances claim that privilege is not a very real thing and it needs to be considered; my posting history here will bear out that I'm usually saying it does and needs to be. And I'm not even against public shaming as a concept - sometimes, it's the only tool left in the box. But I don't think that's the case here, and I read the backlash to this situation as people getting pissed because somebody with a lot of social influence decided to use it like a magnifying glass to burn some ants. She has (had) power and she has (had) standing that they didn't. She was able to--and, I don't think it's unfair to say, did--point at them to many, many people, and attack them in a way that they can't even respond to effectively, let alone defend themselves if she happened to be wrong (and there's sufficient churn among the stories going back and forth that that's a possibility that needs to be considered). That, I do think, deserves an apology. And a real one.
oneweekwonder 14y ago
Can you tell me what they said. All I can find is something about forking and dongle? Because it just seems to me like hearsay.
tzs 14y ago
The dongle remark was less sexual than many jokes on children's cartoons on Nickelodeon or on prime time sitcoms on network television. This is orders of magnitude below "lewd" or "frat house" level. You'd have a hard time getting even far right conservative family groups to get worked up over it.

salman89 14y ago

"I would feel really uncomfortable if I was in the same room as this person. What if I accidentally say something that she finds offensive? Am I next?" I'm not agreeing with anything Adria did, but the issue of being labeled as the "tattletale" probably plays a big part in most women's reluctance to report real harassment.

niggler 14y ago
"the issue of being labeled as the "tattletale" probably plays a big part in most women's reluctance to report real harassment." This isn't just in tech. Some females testified before congress that the same problem was happening in the military, and there the senior officer is given precedence due to his position
Goronmon 14y ago
I'm not agreeing with anything Adria did, but the issue of being labeled as the "tattletale" probably plays a big part in most women's reluctance to report real harassment. But there is a big difference between mentioning something to someone or someone's boss in private, and posting about it on Twitter with a picture attached.
- CptCodeMonkey 14y ago
  But everyone else seems to like a good pitchfork witch hunt!
  - WalterSear 14y ago
    There's must be a way to monetize this, turn it into an industry, or at least, a full time career.
    - benologist 14y ago
      Mashable just did!
      - 14y ago

itsprofitbaron 14y ago

In response to the dev on HN 2 days ago, Adria said[1]: "I'm sorry to hear your employer deciding to not to work with you on this and I hope they reconsider, bring you back on and dealing with it constructively" [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5399047 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5399047

pekk 14y ago
"See you next year." Understood meaning: I am right, you are wrong, you are eating crow; after I publicly bullied you and got you fired, you are not getting away from me.
- untog 14y ago
  What? I'm sorry, but if you can interpret a phrase like "See you next year" in that way then it might be worth speaking to a professional.
  - eropple 14y ago
    I'm of two minds here. Normally, I would agree that it's an innocuous thing to say; I mean, I use the phrase all the time at conferences! That said, I am not so sanguine here; between Ms. Richards's bad faith actions (and you may disagree that she dealt with them in bad faith and that's fine) and her non-apology (I think this is fairly inarguable), I think that it's not unreasonable to infer a negative connotation to the phrase. Especially if you look at it from that dude's perspective, where a not-unreasonable reading might be "she started a massive shitstorm over a joke that could offend a hypothetical person and now I'm fired and why would I ever want to see her again?". Context does matter.
    - itsprofitbaron 14y ago
      FWIW I think that the "See you next year" comment was in response to the fact that he (the guy who was fired) said he will be at pycon in 2014[1] and before stating his side of the story, he said that he defended her position[1]: "First of all I'd like to say I'm sorry. I really did not mean to offend anyone and I really do regret the comment and how it made Adria feel. She had every right to report me to staff, and I defend her position" [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5398681 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5398681 (As I mentioned earlier this also includes his side of the story)

SODaniel 14y ago

I feel the same way. I think that if she had just apologized early and clearly for her lack of judgement and maybe just called up the company that fired the guy they could have made a deal and shaken hands. Now she has lost her job at Sendgrid and is almost certainly not going to be able to be a 'evangelist' that anyone takes seriously.

shardling 14y ago

>I would feel really uncomfortable if I was in the same room as this person. What if I accidentally say something that she finds offensive? Am I next? Next to what? Adria didn't fire anyone...

_ak 14y ago
Shamed publicly, slandered, etc.?
- ceol 14y ago
  Because Adria is the only person who has the power to shame someone publicly? She's the only one with 9,000 twitter followers, she's the only one with a camera phone, and she's the only one who can upload photos to twitter? I find the concern of being in the same room as her incredibly stupid.
  - doktrin 14y ago
    She's someone with a history of senseless public shaming, and apparently a fair bit of grandstanding [1] You're entitled to your opinion, of course, but what's being discussed here isn't the ability to perform an action but the willingness to do so on a whim. [1] http://amandablumwords.wordpress.com/2013/03/21/3/ http://amandablumwords.wordpress.com/2013/03/21/3/
  - katbyte 14y ago
    I don't have twitter, Facebook etc. Even if i did i doubt i would have that many followers because i don't find any appeal in it. I could not reach the audience she did. I do not have the power to easily shame someone publicly. I think that goes for most people. I would be concerned and i'm female. What if i disagree with her? Its not stupid, its cautious.
    - ceol 14y ago
      Anyone can easily reach the same audience by creating a twitter account and tagging it with something popular. I'm sure there were plenty of people in that conference with way more followers. You should be more afraid at the veritable brigade of angry internet-goers who were stirred up to the point of DDoS'ing her ex-employer and harassing her. But no, focus on the woman who posted a single photograph on her twitter feed. I'm sure she's more dangerous.

kalkin 14y ago

A bunch of sexist loons attack somebody, and the right thing to do is fire her because it proves she isn't a good evangelist anymore? Seems to me that's awarding a really dangerous amount of power to sexist loons on the Internet. ... I suppose I should defend the "sexist loons" label. It would be one thing if people were attacking PlayHaven. They're the ones who made the decision to overreact to Adria's post and fire the guy - a decision she apparently disagreed with. That people got mad at Adria, rather than the folks with hiring & firing power, is, well, weird at best. And if you read the comment threads (like the one on SendGrid's Facebook post), it becomes clear that the explanation for a lot of the weirdness that a bunch of men have deep-seated grievances against "feminists". For people who are saying she deserved to be fired because she linked John Scalzi's post - http://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/05/15/straight-white-male-the-lowest-difficulty-setting-there-is/ http://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/05/15/straight-white-male-th... - this is clearly not about free speech or privacy. And the rage level against Adria would be way lower without those people.

andrewguenther 14y ago
While none of us can say for sure what SendGrid's exact reasons were for firing her, I don't think the "sexist loons" are it. While representing her employer at a conference, she unnecessarily publicly shamed two developers. Like I've said before, none of this should have ever left Pycon. Then (and what I think was the nail in the coffin) she made her "my employer supports me" tweet. SendGrid had made no comment about the incident, and now she has directly connected them to it. So now, claiming she has SendGrid's support, in her capacity as a developer evangelist, she has publicly shamed two people in the demographic her position requires her to build relations with. That is what I think proved she is not a good evangelist anymore.
- kalkin 14y ago
  We don't know what SendGrid told her before she made that Tweet. Absent the firing, I'd have assumed they told her they supported her, and even now I think it's a reasonably likely possibility. Beyond that, I'm torn between two responses. On the one hand, her post may have been an overreaction, but I don't think its indefensible. If you say something offensive in public, it's not a huge escalation for somebody to post on social media, "hey this guy said something offensive". It's the firing that's the big escalation, and that's all on PlayHaven - it's not like Adria even called for it, let alone had the power to enact it. On the other hand, I think that's almost irrelevant, because it's naive to believe that SendGrid's firing decision was made on the merits of her actions, absent the context of all the Internet outrage. If they think she can't do her job anymore, it's because a bunch of people "in the demographic her position requires her to build relations with" get really bizarrely enraged when a woman asks them to change their behavior, and SendGrid was feeling the heat. It's not because she demonstrated such bad judgment that a reasonable person couldn't trust her decision-making ever again.

vertis 14y ago

heili 14y ago
I think the 'You're not helping' meme is pretty damn apropos here and I am a software engineer who happens to be female. I'm not furious at her, because she's not high enough on my radar to actually incite 'fury', but I do think she's an idiot and that her actions are likely to cause the exact opposite response than the one she claims to have intended. Oh and I also don't really find my field to be inherently sexist just because it's mostly men and there are a lot of dick jokes. I happen to like it that way, and much like every guy with some chops I've always been treated with respect due to my own abilities. They do expect me to actually have ability to be part of the group, but that's hardly unreasonable.

ericabiz 14y ago

> "Most [all, actually] of the women I've talked to about this are furious with her over how badly this portrays women." Okay, time to speak up! Hi, I'm a woman in tech. And this upset me, but not for the reasons you think. I agree that Adria went too far in publicly Tweeting and "name and shaming" these guys. But the vitriol and hate that has spewed forth online to her is what takes my breath away. Comments calling her a "cunt" and saying she should be raped (this I found on her blog, presumably before she had a chance to delete it.) As a woman in tech, I deal with sexism all the time. And it's usually not blatant, "blah blah a woman's place is in the home get out of my office" type of stuff. That's egregious and I would shut that down. It's usually less obvious. Like the guy at a conference I went to recently (with my fiance, Brian) who asked me my name, asked Brian his name, and then proceeded to spend 10 minutes talking to Brian and trying to figure out why he (who is a front-end developer at a startup) was at an entrepreneurial conference. My fiance: I'm here because of Erica. (points at me) Guy: Oh. But I don't get it. Why are you here? Brian: She comes here because she's a successful entrepreneur and likes to hang out with other entrepreneurs. I'm tagging along with her. Guy: Oh. But you're not an entrepreneur...so why are you here? This went on like this for several minutes. Dude never said a single word to me, and finally wandered off, confused. Or a more recent scenario at SXSW where I was talking to a huge, well-known tech big-wig (founder of a multi-billion-dollar tech company) who proceeded to make a flippant, condescending remark about his wife--and then stared at me, the only woman nearby, to gauge my reaction. Borderline sexist, but definitely unprofessional. What do I do? Do I call him out by name? Right now it's been a week and I'm still working out the best course of action. I'm horribly disappointed because this is someone I looked up to and hoped to have as a mentor. These are just recent examples. I am hard-pressed to name a conference I've attended where one of these "borderline" sexist issues hasn't happened. Oh, wait, I can...the coworking conference I recently attended, where nearly 50% of the attendees were women. Was Adria's reaction, to this as an isolated event, out of hand? Yes. But when this happens to you every single day--and in her case, multiple times a day!--sometimes you can't take it anymore and you just snap. I get where she's coming from, even if I wouldn't have done the same thing in her situation. This doesn't portray women as badly as it portrays our entire tech culture badly. It's as frustrating to me as it is to anyone else. The blatant sexism is mostly gone, but the undertones remain. And that makes it harder than ever to gauge what the "right" reaction is as a woman when one of these events happens around you.

raganwald 14y ago

I would feel really uncomfortable if I was in the same room as this person. What if I accidentally say something that she finds offensive? Am I next? People say the same things all the time in companies where women complain about inappropriate sexuality. "What if I say something that offends her?" Most of us are good, inoffensive people. We are saddled with growing up in a world that is changing. It used to be acceptable to have a topless woman on a calendar in your locker at the factory. Not any more. Men used to take each other to strip clubs for business entertaining. Not outside of Oracle. We all deal with the fact that we're in the middle of change, and it isn't always comfortable. Just as it wasn't comfortable for people dealing with the acceptance of homosexuals: I think everyone accepts that the word "faggot" is no longer appropriate. It would be far, far easier for everyone if they just, well, shut up. But these things are hard, and it's up to our generation to carve out new social norms so that our children will reflexively and automatically act in ways that don't offend anyone. I feel for you, there's absolutely zero wrong with you having and expressing these concerns. My message to you is that we men can come together and support each other and be a generation that others look back on with respect, just as we look back on the generations that broke the colour barriers with respect.

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- raganwald 14y ago
  Reminder: She didn't "get anyone fired." Two employers chose to fire employees.
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- rmc 14y ago
  The problem here is that the jokes were so innocuous that it would be difficult to tell just what would set her off and potentially get you fired. It's very easy actually. Sexuality jokes. That's it.

RougeFemme 14y ago

I'm a woman in tech. I think she can continue to function as a women's tech evangelist. Yes, there are women who are furious with her, but there are also plenty of women who have been in her corner, whether or not they agree with how she handled the situation. And for a lot of the women who've been on the fence since all of this exploded, this firing will probably push them into her corner. Loss of credibility as a dev evangelist? I'll buy that to a large degree. Loss of credibility as a women's tech evangelist? Probably not as much as you think.

JohnBooty 14y ago

> I would feel really uncomfortable if I was in the same > room as this person. What if I accidentally say > something that she finds offensive? Am I next? I wouldn't feel uncomfortable around her at all, because I find it very easy to avoid saying sexually inappropriate things to women I don't know. I have quite an off-color sense of humor myself. I joke a lot and a lot of those jokes involve sex, bodily functions, and imagery many might find disturbing. And yet I have no problem restricting this kind of humor to friendships and relationships where we've established the fact that both parties find that kind of humor funny. It just honestly doesn't seem difficult to me, and I'm not a genius.

misnome 14y ago
What about cases where you think it's just you and your friends joking between each other, and someone overhears, takes a picture of you and then publicly crucifies you online?
- rmc 14y ago
  Well if you're at a conference with a publicised Code of Conduct that says no sexuality jokes, then... well... maybe don't do it there? They literally wrote it down.
  - _ak 14y ago
    Yes, and the situation on the conference was reported to the conference staff, the people involved were talked to, and the situation was resolved. Or so, it seems. Then Aria continued her public shaming, and the whole thing escalated.
- JohnBooty 14y ago
  This hasn't ever been an issue for me. I understand that when I'm seated at a conference, the people around me can hear what I'm saying, and adjust the volume of my voice and/or the content of my speech accordingly. > ...and someone overhears, takes a picture of you > and then publicly crucifies you online? The guy's actions and Adria's actions are two separate things, really. I'd still be in the wrong for subjecting a stranger to an unwanted series of sexual jokes, whether they handled it poorly or they handled it in a really outstanding way. I'm not sure what you're getting at. It's okay to say whatever you want if the other person responds poorly?

mwetzler 14y ago

> the women I've talked to about this are furious with her This doesn't represent the views of all women in tech. What happened to Adria could happen to any of us outspoken women. She didn't handle the situation perfectly, but there's no way she could have known this would unfold in this way. She said she didn't want the guy to get fired and apologized to him. I'm horrified by what happened to her and now afraid the same could happen to me. None of us should have to be afraid that a tweet like that could get someone fired, provoke threats, or warrant attacks on our companies. The nature of the attacks against Adria are EXTREMELY misogynistic (rape threats, death threats, people calling her a c_nt, b_tch, wh_re, etc) and many people have taken up a "burn her at the stake" mentality. They've also pulled into question her professional credibility and called her an affirmative action hire. They are saying this kind of behavior should be expected from someone with the domain "butyouragirl". There is a simply an undue level of hatred for Adria which is correlated to her gender, I think in large part because she is an outspoken feminist. I'm trying to be more outspoken about gender bias I encounter in the workplace, but incidents like this are a terrifying reminder of why that can be dangerous. I'm not mad at Adria. The larger and more striking problem is how much hatred for women exists in this community and how threatening that feels. If anything good came of this, it's that these biases are now coming to a head, right out in the open for all to see.

doktrin 14y ago
I agree with a lot of the sentiment you've expressed, so I want to share my perspective. > She said she didn't want the guy to get fired and apologized to him. She may have expressed sympathy, but she did not apologize. An apology may have gone a long way at stemming this disaster, but that's speculation at this point. > I'm horrified by what happened to her and now afraid the same could happen to me. Likewise, I'm horrified what happened to the men involved could happen to me. From everything I've read (which is not all-inclusive), their comments occurred in a 1-1 conversation during a loud presentation. Moreover, frankly, it was innocuous if vaguely inappropriate. The dongle joke was not beyond the pale. It was not a firing offense, and it certainly did not deserve anyone's face being blasted all over Twitter along with harassment allegations. Rest assured, we're all quite paranoid as a result of this. >The nature of the attacks against Adria are EXTREMELY misogynistic (rape threats, death threats, people calling her a c_nt, b_tch, wh_re, etc) and many people have taken up a "burn her at the stake" mentality. They've also pulled into question her professional credibility and called her an affirmative action hire. They are saying this kind of behavior should be expected from someone with the domain "butyouragirl". While I haven't spent much time on Twitter, I don't think it's really fair to draw a line between some of the extreme views voiced there and the tech community. This transcended tech very quickly, and never recovered. My sense is that many of the most vocal contributors to the discussion arrived at it second hand. > I'm not mad at Adria. The larger and more striking problem is how much hatred for women exists in this community and how threatening that feels. I may be blind to this as I'm not a woman, but I honestly don't perceive hatred towards women in the tech community. The Twitter & internet mob response should not be taken to represent this community. It [tech] may be flawed, there may even be overlap, but they are not one and the same.

rorrr 14y ago

She deserved to get fired. She made up a bullshit story that got a developer fired.

rmc 14y ago

I would feel really uncomfortable if I was in the same room as this person. What if I accidentally say something that she finds offensive? Am I next? Here's a hint: Don't make dick jokes. Don't belittle and exclude women and other minorities. Be a decent human. You'll be fine.

nashadelic 14y ago

We are now going to penalize people for standing up for themselves? She faced sexist remarks, she shamed them. Good on her. I'm an outside observer and I've never been to the valley but SendGrid comes off as irresponsible and not backing up their people. > What if I Accidentally say something she finds offensive Accidentally offensive? Like calling someone a nigger? Or a faggot? And at the same time you make it sound their fault for making you "next". If you say something. Own up it. Anyone could qoute you. If you're uncomfortable with that you better watch what you say in public.

thedudemabry 14y ago
Whoa, whoa. I'm not disagreeing with your sentiments, but an off-color joke does not equal hate speech. Let's keep unnecessary hyperbole out of this, please.
katbyte 14y ago
I don't think anyone would have blamed her if they insulted her, It wasn't an insult, it wasn't directed at her.; It was said to his friend unaware she was listening and she was offended. There's a difference there.

jurassic 14y ago

>> And honestly, she can't even function as a sort of "women's tech evangelist" anymore. Most [all, actually] of the women I've talked to about this are furious with her over how badly this portrays women. Female here. I'm a newbie in this field coming from science -- another male-dominated arena. My takeaway is that while I would not have a problem interacting with Adria I don't think I'd want to work at a place where top male talent is being repulsed by her actions or reputation. As a junior dev, I want to work with and learn from the best team that'll have me. That makes her a liability. I do wish she'd handled everything differently. Women shouldn't freak when men say man things to other men, and even if you are offended you should just speak up for yourself and say so. This gives everyone a chance to behave properly without escalation. Most guys actually aren't jerks, they just lack self-awareness. Women in tech should not behave as damsels in distress who cry out for help (to twitter) and need shining knights (pycon organizers) to intervene in minor situations like this. Take back the locus of control and own the situation.

Steuard 14y ago

"Most [all, actually] of the women I've talked to about this are furious with her over how badly this portrays women." And I'm furious with how badly the comments here and elsewhere portray men. The worst are the threats of violence that I've heard that she's gotten, of course. I know that's a minority behavior, but we can't kid ourselves: the people making those threats are only comfortable doing so because they see the rest of the community as being "on their side". Women (and men!) need to speak up when they see manifestations of the culture that continues to drive women away from tech. Would I have made the same judgement in this case? Maybe not. But we need to find some way of changing the "bro" culture on display here, and I can't really blame her for trying. "What if I accidentally say something that she finds offensive? Am I next?" If 1) you choose to say something 2) in a public place that 3) your employer considers grounds for termination, I think you should probably be worried no matter who's in the room. I personally don't think that public shaming is the best way to respond to low-level offenses as in this case (but then, I really wouldn't fire someone over it: that seems like 100x as much of an overreaction). Nevertheless, it's unreasonable to expect in this day and age that transgressions in public will always go unnoticed. If you knowingly say something that you deserve to be fired for, it's not the photographer's fault when it happens.

jordo37 14y ago

Not sure what subset of women you are talking with, but there seem to be plenty of women (and men! myself included)[1] who are definitely not furious with Adria over this, and instead are standing up with her. I feel bad the guy got fired, but the mass pandemonium and hateful comments being produced by the internet at large is simply disgusting. [1]https://twitter.com/search?q=%23supportadria https://twitter.com/search?q=%23supportadria

jami 14y ago

I would not have reacted the same way in this set of circumstances -- I feel sort of bad for those dudes wondering why their picture was being taken -- but I am far from "furious" with Adria. I will, on the other hand, never do business with SendGrid. I worked with a bright, lovely young woman who had taken two terms of Java, with an eye toward a CS degree. One of her professors told her in office hours that she smelled really good. So she was doing marketing. Little creep-outs can have a huge impact, and you will unfortunately find so many of them in nearly every tech setting that if you hang in there, you just get accustomed to saying nothing. But saying nothing is not the ideal course of action, because based on the numbers, lots of women don't hang in there. Adria is right that the little girl on the slide might never make it to PyCon (in a dev role...) if things stay the same. Imagine if roles were reversed, and lucrative, enjoyable, interesting jobs were mostly held by straight women, and every time you went to a professional conference, you had to endure non sequitur pictures of men in bikinis, and uninformed, under-dressed plastic booth bros, and people assuming you're an uninformed booth bro no matter how you look, and the after-party at a male strip club, and countless unattractive old women chatting you up when you'd rather write code and all manner of little, alienating crap. In this bizarro world, you would likely not believe the sense of relief when another man spoke up about all this stuff that had gone unquestioned. Your comment about feeling uncomfortable around Adria is ironic, given that feeling uncomfortable is exactly what Adria was trying, however imperfectly, to fix. Unfortunately, the comfort of straight white men has again ruled the day, and SendGrid fired a black woman to preserve it. I hope she finds a truly wonderful lawyer.

KuraFire 14y ago

> I would feel really uncomfortable if I was in the same room as this person. What if I accidentally say something that she finds offensive? Am I next? Think of the backlash against her that happened. Think what she and other women might feel being in a room full of Hacker News & Reddit tech guys, _some_ of whom having made threats. "I would feel really uncomfortable if I was in the same room as $UsernameWhoWasThreateningAdria. What if I do something that upsets him? Is he going to rape or kill me next?" Your legitimate concern over getting reprimanded is not on the same scale at all to the concerns others might have because of the culture being perpetuated here.