5 ms·

A terrifying precedent for all women in tech.

CJefferson 14y ago
I disagree, I think too much of this has got wrapped up in male/female terms. People making off-colour jokes at a conference is unacceptable (perhaps not a firing offence). Posting pictures of fellow attendees from a conference, while your work is paying you to be there, with insulting messages about them, is also unacceptable (but perhaps not a firing offence). No-one involved here comes off particularly well, but I truely believe if if Ardia had done any (or all) of: * Talk privately to the people * Talk privately to the organiser of PyCon * Talk publicly about the issue, without giving out pictures or names She would not now be having a problem of anywhere near the same size, or now be fired.
afandian 14y ago
What has this got to do with women? Anyone could have found those jokes offensive, whatever their gender. And no-one has the right to protection from being offended, whatever their gender.
- mwetzler 14y ago
  Thanks for asking. The nature of the attacks against Adria are EXTREMELY misogynistic (rape threats, death threats, people calling her a c_nt, b_tch, wh_re, etc) and many people have taken up a "burn her at the stake" mentality. They've also pulled into question her professional credibility and called her an affirmative action hire. They are saying this kind of behavior should be expected from someone with the domain "butyouragirl". Misogyny is kind of like porn: "you know it when you see it". There is a simply an undue level of hatred for Adria which is correlated to her gender, I think in large part because she is an outspoken feminist. A lot of people in this community would very much like outspoken feminists not to exist (check the comments here or on Reddit anytime a post about women in tech goes up). Another way to look at it: I can't imagine this chain of events would have gone down if a man pointed out a lewd joke at a conference. The whole thing really smells like a feminist backlash. I'm trying to be more outspoken about gender bias I encounter in the workplace, but incidents like this are a terrifying reminder of why that can be dangerous. A few months ago I posted about an inappropriate comment someone made to me at a hackathon and got lots of advice (on this forum) to publicly out and shame the person. Seeing that my company could have come under attack for that is a reminder of why it's dangerous for women to speak out.
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
  - vor_ 14y ago
    Men and women alike have been coming forward and questioning Adria's actions, especially since she made the same type of joke during the conference. She's become a PR nightmare for her employer because she used her media position to take matters into her own hands. It needs to be understood that posting someone's picture on the internet with the intent of making an example out of them through public shaming, and without the accused having equal footing to present their side, has consequences, especially for an accusation as politically charged as sexism. Such an accusation can get someone fired. One reason this has grabbed so much attention is that the remarks she overheard were not only rather benign and non-sexist, but they were also the kinds of comments both men and women make to their friends, including Adria, as she did on Twitter. > Another way to look at it: I can't imagine this chain of events would have gone down if a man pointed out a lewd joke at a conference. If you want to go down this route, a man complaining about a dongle joke probably would not have received the attention Adria's accusations received because she's a woman. That's simply because accusations made by women are taken more seriously due to them more often being on the receiving end of sexism. That's why it's so important to make sure the attention paid to gender inequality issues isn't wrongly exploited.
  - sjs382 14y ago
    These attacks, presumably, aren't being made by anyone that's actually involved with the situation...
  - afandian 14y ago
    Absolutely, the reaction would be terrifying for anyone. I assumed you were talking about her initial actions. I was. There's been sensible debate and abuse. There may be an overlap, but they are distinct reactions. If you challenge someone, you invite them to challenge you back (I hope she's not terrified by disagreement). But abuse and threats are entirely separate, and seem to have come from people beyond the industry, e.g. anonymous. Lots of trolls on the net are just looking for a fight and gender politics fades into the background when you have a large number of people on a hair-trigger, willing to use any language at their disposal that they can make fit the target.

I disagree, I think too much of this has got wrapped up in male/female terms. People making off-colour jokes at a conference is unacceptable (perhaps not a firing offence). Posting pictures of fellow attendees from a conference, while your work is paying you to be there, with insulting messages about them, is also unacceptable (but perhaps not a firing offence). No-one involved here comes off particularly well, but I truely believe if if Ardia had done any (or all) of: * Talk privately to the people * Talk privately to the organiser of PyCon * Talk publicly about the issue, without giving out pictures or names She would not now be having a problem of anywhere near the same size, or now be fired.

afandian 14y ago

What has this got to do with women? Anyone could have found those jokes offensive, whatever their gender. And no-one has the right to protection from being offended, whatever their gender.

mwetzler 14y ago
Thanks for asking. The nature of the attacks against Adria are EXTREMELY misogynistic (rape threats, death threats, people calling her a c_nt, b_tch, wh_re, etc) and many people have taken up a "burn her at the stake" mentality. They've also pulled into question her professional credibility and called her an affirmative action hire. They are saying this kind of behavior should be expected from someone with the domain "butyouragirl". Misogyny is kind of like porn: "you know it when you see it". There is a simply an undue level of hatred for Adria which is correlated to her gender, I think in large part because she is an outspoken feminist. A lot of people in this community would very much like outspoken feminists not to exist (check the comments here or on Reddit anytime a post about women in tech goes up). Another way to look at it: I can't imagine this chain of events would have gone down if a man pointed out a lewd joke at a conference. The whole thing really smells like a feminist backlash. I'm trying to be more outspoken about gender bias I encounter in the workplace, but incidents like this are a terrifying reminder of why that can be dangerous. A few months ago I posted about an inappropriate comment someone made to me at a hackathon and got lots of advice (on this forum) to publicly out and shame the person. Seeing that my company could have come under attack for that is a reminder of why it's dangerous for women to speak out.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- vor_ 14y ago
  Men and women alike have been coming forward and questioning Adria's actions, especially since she made the same type of joke during the conference. She's become a PR nightmare for her employer because she used her media position to take matters into her own hands. It needs to be understood that posting someone's picture on the internet with the intent of making an example out of them through public shaming, and without the accused having equal footing to present their side, has consequences, especially for an accusation as politically charged as sexism. Such an accusation can get someone fired. One reason this has grabbed so much attention is that the remarks she overheard were not only rather benign and non-sexist, but they were also the kinds of comments both men and women make to their friends, including Adria, as she did on Twitter. > Another way to look at it: I can't imagine this chain of events would have gone down if a man pointed out a lewd joke at a conference. If you want to go down this route, a man complaining about a dongle joke probably would not have received the attention Adria's accusations received because she's a woman. That's simply because accusations made by women are taken more seriously due to them more often being on the receiving end of sexism. That's why it's so important to make sure the attention paid to gender inequality issues isn't wrongly exploited.
- sjs382 14y ago
  These attacks, presumably, aren't being made by anyone that's actually involved with the situation...
- afandian 14y ago
  Absolutely, the reaction would be terrifying for anyone. I assumed you were talking about her initial actions. I was. There's been sensible debate and abuse. There may be an overlap, but they are distinct reactions. If you challenge someone, you invite them to challenge you back (I hope she's not terrified by disagreement). But abuse and threats are entirely separate, and seem to have come from people beyond the industry, e.g. anonymous. Lots of trolls on the net are just looking for a fight and gender politics fades into the background when you have a large number of people on a hair-trigger, willing to use any language at their disposal that they can make fit the target.