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The problem is publicly posting a creepily-taken photograph of two friends at a conference, with entirely baseless slanderous claims of something you allegedly

by ratat 14y ago

The problem is publicly posting a creepily-taken photograph of two friends at a conference, with entirely baseless slanderous claims of something you allegedly overheard them say to each other.

jasonlotito 14y ago
Baseless? PyCon disagrees, and apparently, so do the two friends. http://pycon.blogspot.com/2013/03/pycon-response-to-inappropriate.html http://pycon.blogspot.com/2013/03/pycon-response-to-inapprop... So, unless PyCon is lying, the claims were verified. If they had not been, you'd have a point. If she had made the claims, but never went to PyCon and resolved it properly, you'd be dead on.
- integraton 14y ago
  PyCon's response was appropriate. SendGrid's representative's response was not.
  - jasonlotito 14y ago
    What response? Speaking up?
    - integraton 14y ago
      Speaking up to the individuals or to PyCon staff would have been very appropriate. Public shaming given the circumstances was not.
      - jasonlotito 14y ago
        > Speaking up to the individuals or to PyCon staff would have been very appropriate. Speaking up to the individuals isn't always the easiest in a situation like that. It's easy to make that suggestion sitting behind a computer screen. So, she spoke up in the best way she knew how. In the end, the result between the 3 parties (the 2 guys, PyCon, and her) ended amicably. http://pycon.blogspot.com/2013/03/pycon-response-to-inappropriate.html http://pycon.blogspot.com/2013/03/pycon-response-to-inapprop... > Public shaming given the circumstances was not. Well, neither was their actions. More so, in fact. That she reacted poorly is indicative of the seriousness of their actions. Sitting comfortably at home in our chairs it's easy to dismiss this as nothing. But it's not.
        integraton 14y ago
        PyCon attendee procedure for handling harassment: https://us.pycon.org/2013/about/code-of-conduct/harassment-incidents/ https://us.pycon.org/2013/about/code-of-conduct/harassment-i... "Report the harassment incident (preferably in writing) to a conference staff member - all reports are confidential...The staff is well informed on how to deal with the incident and how to further proceed with the situation...Note: Public shaming can be counter-productive to building a strong community. PyCon does not condone nor participate in such actions out of respect."
        jasonlotito 14y ago
        And she reported the incident, in writing. Their note about public shaming, while accurate, is just that: a note.
        camelite 14y ago
        What a bizarrely meaningless statement. "I went to the shop like you asked. That note you left me about wanting milk, while accurate, is just that: a note." It's a procedure for handling harassment. It tells you what to do and what not to do. It's clearly relevant that the procedure was deliberately and knowingly violated.
        jasonlotito 14y ago
        > What a bizarrely meaningless statement. It's not meaningless, and your example is fairly piss-poor and doesn't relate at all. More importantly, the note was about how it didn't help community, and how PyCon wouldn't take part. Regardless, I find it ironic that people are publicly shaming a woman for publicly shaming a man.
        camelite 14y ago
        It has the form of a counter-argument but its content is tautalogical, as with my example - your bare-naked assertion to the contrary notwithstanding. "PyCon <i>does not condone</i> nor participate in such actions" You've just used 17 words to characterise a 22 word statement and managed to leave out the part that explicitly condemns the type of behaviour you are defending. Furthermore, from your own link: "PyCon values the privacy of all attendees above everything. Except in cases wherein law enforcement must or could be involved, all reports and actions taken are kept confidential by PyCon staff. Sometimes public shaming is appropriate; sometimes it is not. PyCon seem to me to have concluded that in this woman's case, it was inappropriate. I personally believe that if it prevents this sort of thing in the future, most of the "public shaming" going on is this thread is appropriate and proportionate. Simple. No irony necessary.
- ratat 14y ago
  The claims were verified after the damage was done. My point is that at the time she decided to take this photo (seemingly just after she overheard the statement) the claims were unverified. Had they not been able to verify the claims then it would have been too late.
  - jasonlotito 14y ago
    > Had they not been able to verify the claims then it would have been too late. This is besides the point, as the claims were verified. But, I believe you are wrong. I think if she was found to be lying, the backlash would have been on here. Heck, her claims were verified, and their is still a much strong backlash from the community toward her and SendGrid. I agree. Crying wolf is should not be encouraged. But many times before, people here on HN and elsewhere tell women time and time again to speak up when something happens. Now, when one of them does, she's essentially told to keep quiet and handle it behind the scenes.
    - ratat 14y ago
      >I think if she was found to be lying, the backlash would have been on here. I believe you are wrong. The majority reponse would have been that she was telling the truth and nobody else overheard it.
      - jasonlotito 14y ago
        Whereas that's it's been confirmed, there is a backlash against her. So, the key is: make the accusation and don't prove it.
    - camelite 14y ago
      No, she's being to to speak up AND handle it behind the scenes. At what point in this conversation did you forget the fact that an identifiable picture was posted publicly to her 9000 followers?
      - jasonlotito 14y ago

by ratat 14y ago

The problem is publicly posting a creepily-taken photograph of two friends at a conference, with entirely baseless slanderous claims of something you allegedly overheard them say to each other.

jasonlotito 14y ago

Baseless? PyCon disagrees, and apparently, so do the two friends. http://pycon.blogspot.com/2013/03/pycon-response-to-inappropriate.html http://pycon.blogspot.com/2013/03/pycon-response-to-inapprop... So, unless PyCon is lying, the claims were verified. If they had not been, you'd have a point. If she had made the claims, but never went to PyCon and resolved it properly, you'd be dead on.

integraton 14y ago
PyCon's response was appropriate. SendGrid's representative's response was not.
- jasonlotito 14y ago
  What response? Speaking up?
  - integraton 14y ago
    Speaking up to the individuals or to PyCon staff would have been very appropriate. Public shaming given the circumstances was not.
    - jasonlotito 14y ago
      > Speaking up to the individuals or to PyCon staff would have been very appropriate. Speaking up to the individuals isn't always the easiest in a situation like that. It's easy to make that suggestion sitting behind a computer screen. So, she spoke up in the best way she knew how. In the end, the result between the 3 parties (the 2 guys, PyCon, and her) ended amicably. http://pycon.blogspot.com/2013/03/pycon-response-to-inappropriate.html http://pycon.blogspot.com/2013/03/pycon-response-to-inapprop... > Public shaming given the circumstances was not. Well, neither was their actions. More so, in fact. That she reacted poorly is indicative of the seriousness of their actions. Sitting comfortably at home in our chairs it's easy to dismiss this as nothing. But it's not.
      - integraton 14y ago
        PyCon attendee procedure for handling harassment: https://us.pycon.org/2013/about/code-of-conduct/harassment-incidents/ https://us.pycon.org/2013/about/code-of-conduct/harassment-i... "Report the harassment incident (preferably in writing) to a conference staff member - all reports are confidential...The staff is well informed on how to deal with the incident and how to further proceed with the situation...Note: Public shaming can be counter-productive to building a strong community. PyCon does not condone nor participate in such actions out of respect."
        jasonlotito 14y ago
        And she reported the incident, in writing. Their note about public shaming, while accurate, is just that: a note.
        camelite 14y ago
        What a bizarrely meaningless statement. "I went to the shop like you asked. That note you left me about wanting milk, while accurate, is just that: a note." It's a procedure for handling harassment. It tells you what to do and what not to do. It's clearly relevant that the procedure was deliberately and knowingly violated.
        jasonlotito 14y ago
        > What a bizarrely meaningless statement. It's not meaningless, and your example is fairly piss-poor and doesn't relate at all. More importantly, the note was about how it didn't help community, and how PyCon wouldn't take part. Regardless, I find it ironic that people are publicly shaming a woman for publicly shaming a man.
        camelite 14y ago
        It has the form of a counter-argument but its content is tautalogical, as with my example - your bare-naked assertion to the contrary notwithstanding. "PyCon <i>does not condone</i> nor participate in such actions" You've just used 17 words to characterise a 22 word statement and managed to leave out the part that explicitly condemns the type of behaviour you are defending. Furthermore, from your own link: "PyCon values the privacy of all attendees above everything. Except in cases wherein law enforcement must or could be involved, all reports and actions taken are kept confidential by PyCon staff. Sometimes public shaming is appropriate; sometimes it is not. PyCon seem to me to have concluded that in this woman's case, it was inappropriate. I personally believe that if it prevents this sort of thing in the future, most of the "public shaming" going on is this thread is appropriate and proportionate. Simple. No irony necessary.
ratat 14y ago
The claims were verified after the damage was done. My point is that at the time she decided to take this photo (seemingly just after she overheard the statement) the claims were unverified. Had they not been able to verify the claims then it would have been too late.
- jasonlotito 14y ago
  > Had they not been able to verify the claims then it would have been too late. This is besides the point, as the claims were verified. But, I believe you are wrong. I think if she was found to be lying, the backlash would have been on here. Heck, her claims were verified, and their is still a much strong backlash from the community toward her and SendGrid. I agree. Crying wolf is should not be encouraged. But many times before, people here on HN and elsewhere tell women time and time again to speak up when something happens. Now, when one of them does, she's essentially told to keep quiet and handle it behind the scenes.
  - ratat 14y ago
    >I think if she was found to be lying, the backlash would have been on here. I believe you are wrong. The majority reponse would have been that she was telling the truth and nobody else overheard it.
    - jasonlotito 14y ago
      Whereas that's it's been confirmed, there is a backlash against her. So, the key is: make the accusation and don't prove it.
  - camelite 14y ago
    No, she's being to to speak up AND handle it behind the scenes. At what point in this conversation did you forget the fact that an identifiable picture was posted publicly to her 9000 followers?
    - jasonlotito 14y ago