18 ms·

Indeed, I am really puzzled as to why these "jokes" are supposed to be offensive to women. They might be offensive to people raised in some cultures / subcultur

• BrianEatWorld 14y ago
  The office I work in is entirely male, myself included, and just because don how I was raised, these types of jokes make me uncomfortable. However, after I said something about the issue, my coworkers, like most human beings, made an effort to check themselves. However, until you say something, they can't do anything about it. I agree its a decency issue and not a sexism one.
  • katbyte 14y ago
    Anyone can be made uncomfortable by anything, and most people will try and not make people uncomfortable, but until they know your bothered by it they can't do anything.
    • mcherm 14y ago
      This was not "just anything", and all conference participants were on notice that this SPECIFIC behavior was prohibited at PyCon. Read the code of conduct for PyCon: https://us.pycon.org/2013/about/code-of-conduct/ https://us.pycon.org/2013/about/code-of-conduct/ Not specifically the lines "Sexual language and imagery is not appropriate for any conference venue" and "Remember that harassment and sexist, racist, or exclusionary jokes are not appropriate for PyCon." Because of previous issues, the organizers of the conference went out of their way to make the line between what was and was not allowed quite explicit. They did this in order to avoid having participants claim they didn't know it would make someone uncomfortable. I am not saying that this was a firing offense, or that everything which was said was intended as a sexual joke, but some of it crossed a CLEARLY marked line which had been communicated BEFORE the conference even began.
      • vacri 14y ago
        Just curious - do you read every word of every EULA you come across, or do you just get the gist of it? Also, "Remember that harassment and sexist, racist, or exclusionary jokes are not appropriate for PyCon" doesn't appear to have anything to do with what the men said, though perhaps you quoted it for the subsequent harassment on twitter?
        • bird_in_hand 14y ago
          So the jokes weren't sexist. They were still sexual, which was still forbidden.
        • mcherm 14y ago
          > do you read every word of every EULA you come across, or do you just get the gist of it? Fair question: I TRY to read every word, and I'd say I succeed no more than 10% of the time. If I had attended PyCon (I didn't make it this year) I would have been aware of the harassment policy but only because I remember the discussion LAST year (or was it the year before...) which led to the creation of the policy. But if you are suggesting that it is OK to violate the policy just because not everyone reads it, then I have to object. Such an approach makes it impossible to maintain ANY policy. Perhaps the PyCon organizers should recognize that not everyone will have read the policy carefully and should therefore have a measured response... but in this case they DID have a measured response, and I have heard no one suggest that the PyCon organizers responded unreasonably. As for the firing, well I have heard no one defending the company for their position either. > Also, "Remember that harassment and sexist, racist, or exclusionary jokes are not appropriate for PyCon" doesn't appear to have anything to do with what the men said I quoted it only because of the explicit reference to "jokes".
  • shardling 14y ago
    Adria did not initially raise this as a "sexism" issue from what I can see -- just something the made her uncomfortable.
    • pizzeys 14y ago
      She didn't use the exact word 'sexism', but her blog post very much made it out to be a sexism issue.
      • shardling 14y ago
        Did she? I just read the entire post, and I disagree. http://butyoureagirl.com/14015/forking-and-dongle-jokes-dont-belong-at-tech-conferences/ http://butyoureagirl.com/14015/forking-and-dongle-jokes-dont... It certainly exists within the context of gender issues at a tech conference, but she didn't even go so far as to label the jokes sexist -- just something that would make some women uncomfortable. (Which is obviously true, given her response!)
        • ensignavenger 14y ago
          Yes, she did- "this wasn't the first time that day I had to address this issue around harassment and gender." She clearly states in her blog she felt it involved "harassment and gender", which is often referred to as sexism.
          • vacri 14y ago
            She also projects her own fantasy onto a little girl, apropos of nothing, already proclaiming the girls career in tech dead in the water. She did the right thing by notifying conference staff and letting them handle it. She did the wrong thing by naming and shaming on twitter. The blog post reads like a mix of real event and revisionism to stem angry internetters. Still, it's a storm in a teacup - who's to say the same guy wasn't on the verge of being let go for other reasons anyway? It's presumptuous to assuming his firing was solely because of this single event.
        • 14y ago
  • georgeorwell 14y ago
    What is indecent is that Adria Richards completely invented the bit about forking being a sexual reference ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5398681 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5398681 ), escalated her discomfort to the level of internet drama, got her employer SendGrid to support her, and didn't exactly go out of her way to petition PlayHaven to unfire one of the two guys involved. And she's now sticking to her guns even after profusive apologies from the offenders. All she had to do was turn around and ask the guys to stop making sex jokes. This will blow over, the guy will get a new job, but my god, it's a pretty serious defect if an immature joke about penises overheard in public can get you fired. The best thing to do is let SendGrid and PlayHaven know your thoughts: http://sendgrid.com/contact.html http://sendgrid.com/contact.html http://www.playhaven.com/contact http://www.playhaven.com/contact The only hope I have for a positive outcome here is for either company to step in and try to clean up the mess. If they don't, I'd recommend avoiding both of them. Someone that stands up for public humiliation is not somebody you want to work with. Related submissions about this story: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5391667 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5391667 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5399065 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5399065
    • rdtsc 14y ago
      The outcome I'd want to see is for both companies and Adria Richards to apologize. I would want him to be offered his job back (but I hope he gets better offers and I wouldn't be shocked if he hasn't already. I would certainly call him up for an interview). If public humiliation is the new modus operandi, then it seems it is a double edged sword. I think her reputation is forever tarnished. Maybe she had good intentions (but the more I look at the situation, and her penis reference later, less likely it seems) but her execution and decision making cost a father of 3 kids to lose his job, and his face is all over Twitter. She was a no-name before this. I had never heard of her. Have you? Now she at the top of everyone's lips. She does talking engagements and advocacy. Well you connect the dots yourself.
      • vilda 14y ago
        My impression is that Adria Richards is not that kind of a person to apologize.
• wpietri 14y ago
  Imagine this situation: You are walking down the street. It starts to rain, so you duck into the nearest business, a bar. You order a beer, and realize that you have stepped into a gay bar. The table behind you starts making jokes about how virgin anuses are the best. They are pretty big guys, leather daddies. You worry they're talking about you, about your anus. You worry. That feeling of discomfort? The way your heart speeds up as you start wondering if you're safe? Women feel that a lot. The jokes aren't what's offensive. It's when jokes sexualize a professional context in a way that makes women feel unsafe.
  • natmaster 14y ago
    "You worry they're talking about you..." I may not be an expert on human anatomy, but I think women don't have penises? So your analogy does not apply to this situation.
  • run4yourlives 14y ago
    Wait, joking about a body part that women don't have isn't offensive but makes women feel unsafe? WTF?
  • tomp 14y ago
    Were it ok if they were instead small, wimpy guys?
  • georgeorwell 14y ago
    Straw man.
  • oh_sigh 14y ago
    If you wanted your scenario to be equivalent, you should have had the men making jokes about the size of their dicks. If the two men at PyCon were making jokes about how virgin vaginas were the best, I don't think they would be getting the outpouring of support that they seem to be getting from the tech community. You're very bad at crafting illuminating tales.
    • wpietri 14y ago
• nailer 14y ago
  As assessments of body parts the men's behavior and the Sendgrid developer evangelists's tweets are more offensive to men who are being objectified based on their dongles. The lesser issue still exists, though, of creating a 'sexual environment' where mentions of sex may make people who believe others may wish to engage them in sexual relations may feel threatened.
  • rdtsc 14y ago
    Come to think of it, Twisted also makes me uncomfortable. Quick, call Jesse Noller and security and escort Glyph out of the building.
    • mr-hank 14y ago
      To be fair to PSF Jesse Noller was not involved, and we were not escorted out of the building. Their accounting of the issue can be found here: http://pycon.blogspot.com/2013/03/pycon-response-to-inappropriate.html http://pycon.blogspot.com/2013/03/pycon-response-to-inapprop...
      • rdtsc 14y ago
        It was a response to the grandparent who was making a point about how some things should not be tolerated and how the work place can become sexualized. (from gp) > The lesser issue still exists, though, of creating a 'sexual environment' where mentions of sex may make people who believe others may wish to engage them in sexual relations may feel threatened. I was just saying that Twisted makes me feel this way ;-) On a serious note: There is another, more subtle issue at hand and that is that in the past PyCon has dealt with someone who was sent out over something inappropriate (and rightly so). After a that a strongly worded statement was issued about how organizers will be very sensitive to such issues in the future. I think that didn't escape Adria's attention. This year, at a moment's notice she saw an opportunity to go from 0 to 100 in terms of popularity. Given her position she will end up profiting handsomely from this. She also made penis jokes previously on Twitter, and called you guys ass clowns in a world wide forum (twitter) -- your kids will end up seeing that picture some day. I think Jesse Noller (or whoever on the PSF side) should apologize to you. You were also PyCon attendees and sponsors and you had that happen to you. I am sorry. Twitter should remove your photo. Adria shouldn't be welcomed to PyCon anymore. I think you should know that many in the community feel it was terribly unfair what happened. I hope you have a job offer lined up soon and maybe this will open an opportunity for you. The best of luck. EDIT: Spelling + clarification
• deleted 14y ago
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• stephengillie 14y ago
  That "these jokes are sexist or offensive to women" was an axiom (in the logic sense) in my parents' religious household. It's incredibly confusing to see good and respectable people (like your friend) so eager to debase themselves with this humor.
  • ldh 14y ago
    It's not exactly great humor, but I'm confused as to why this is offensive to women specifically (let alone an axiom of sexism). Because it references male organs? They're not referring to females at all. Not to be too reductionist, but that leaves me thinking of two possible conclusions: 1. women are too delicate to handle any references to anatomy or 2. the "jokes" were simply crude and, while off-putting to anyone with a developed sense of humor, nothing to write (tweet?) home about with regards to being offensive
    • hkolek 14y ago
      3. Penis Envy.
    • deleted 14y ago
      [deleted]
  • glass_of_water 14y ago
    How are they "debasing themselves with this humor"?
    • deleted 14y ago
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    • Joeboy 14y ago
      My reading of stephen's comment was that he probably recognises that it's a matter of cultural difference, rather than absolute truth. In some cultures, for a woman to tell those kinds of jokes would be debasing. In ours, not so much I guess.
      • 14y ago
• katbyte 14y ago
  exactly, i have female friends that make far worse joke like that, and male friends who are greatly bothered by them.
  • deleted 14y ago
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  • RougeFemme 14y ago
    I would not have reacted as she did. I would have either ignored it or said something directly to them. But. . .I have male friends who are offended by discussions of some of the things that we females say. And when I'm around them, I'll tone it down a bit. Not completely, both sides compromise. . .I say a little less than I normally would and they tolerate a little more than they normally would.
    • katbyte 14y ago
      Thats how most of I (female) and my friends would react too. Everyone is different and to get along we all must understand and compromise.
• jasonlotito 14y ago
  In a professional setting, you should apply the "would I tell this joke to my mother" rule. It might not be your mother, but someone else, like your grand parent or a situation where lewd jokes are inappropriate, like a job interview or a new client. > In fact a female friend texted me one about an hour ago. A friend. Being female has nothing to do with it.
  • Joeboy 14y ago
    > A friend. Being female has nothing to do with it. Yes, that's kind of my point. Some people obviously have a problem with these kinds of jokes, some people don't. It's a cultural thing. This morning on Facebook, a friend posted a picture of the cover of "Cockhandler" magazine, a supposed magazine about chicken farming (as it happens, it's fake). This has so far been "liked" by six women and two men. I don't know all the women, but the three I do know are pretty hardcore feminists. I just don't think women as a whole are bothered. For the ones who are, I don't think it's particularly because they're women. I agree with you about sensible public conduct, in the same way that I think it's good to be aware that some cultures have taboos about eg. displaying the soles of your feet. If you think you might be among such people, it's a good idea to avoid doing that, even if it seems kind of weird.
    • jasonlotito 14y ago
      > I don't think it's particularly because they're women. Beautifully put. I'm going to remember how you eloquently put that. =)
• crucialfelix 14y ago
  The interesting thing here is that the joke wasn't really: dongle as childish sexual innuendo. What they found funny is that they were sitting at pycon making an obviously childish joke. It's only funny because its so obviously stupid. It's a signifier between two friends that they are relaxed enough to make retarded jokes. So they weren't being childish, it's normal behavior for sophisticated people to occasionally deliberately make stupid jokes.
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• JPKab 14y ago
  It wasn't offensive. I see a lot of cases of ACTUAL, OFFENSIVE sexism on HN. This isn't it. This is an attention addict using whatever means at her disposal to get attention, without a thought as to the cost to those she uses as pawns. We all have encountered both males and females that are real victims, and we have also all encountered people who pretend to be offended for attention. I use to work in the deep south, and down there, the classic "always offended for attention" group are (ok, I'm stereotyping, but its true) are a subset of white, evangelical Christians. They will make a point of becoming offended at ANYTHING, just to show superiority and get attention from their chosen peer group at the same time.
  • mtrimpe 14y ago
    Now if that's not an ad-hominem I don't know what is. Adria got pissed at overhearing some inappropriate jokes, snapped a picture and tweeted her indignation. It might not have been the wisest thing to do, but she didn't fire that guy; she just got offended. It's her right to get offended here and it's the other guy's right to (accidentally) offend her. The only dicks here are a) Playhaven unless, like I suspect, the other guy had a track record of this sort of stuff. b) the anonymous cowards of the lynch mob that's pouring a deluge of hatred out over Adria. And yes, Adria might be a flaming attention seeking self-centered bitch (not that I have any indication of that) but even if she were, that still doesn't warrant the lynch mob that has assembled here, which is the real issue we should be discussing.
    • seivan 14y ago
      IT IS NOT HER RIGHT TO GET OFFENDED. Now you're probably wondering why I used all caps. I really don't have a good explanation for that. Because once I read your post, that's the first thing that sprung to my mind.. in Helvetica-Neu, bold 38px.
      • mtrimpe 14y ago
        Thank you for so beautifully making my true point: that these issues bring a lot of deep-seated emotions to the surface that we often don't even consciously understand or are aware of and that that is the real topic we should be discussing.
• JohnBooty 14y ago
  > Indeed, I am really puzzled as to why these > "jokes" are supposed to be offensive to women. The difference between the PyCon incident and your female friend texting you a joke is that she is your friend, and you have a rapport, and in your friendly relationship with her you two have a understanding that that kind of joke is okay! That's a lot different from a person being subjected to sexualized jokes and comments from strangers. Your friend gets to choose what kind of friendship she has with you; a woman on a train or at a conference does not get to choose what kind of sexualized comments she hears from strangers. Surely this is something we can all understand. A lot of guys (me included) will say really rank things to their close friends - explicitly letting their friends know when they're getting fat, jokes about sleeping with their friends' wives and mothers, and so forth. That's all totally cool (and often hilarious) but surely you can agree: it would be a completely different story if a stranger or your boss started making remarks about your weight or how many times he's slept with your wife, correct? That's kind of what it's like for women when they hear unwanted sexualized jokes and comments from strangers, with the added factors of being minorities in their own industries and living in a largely male-dominated world. Did you know that even in America, a woman has roughly a 20% chance of being raped in her lifetime? (source: http://www.cdc.gov/ViolencePrevention/pdf/SV-DataSheet-a.pdf http://www.cdc.gov/ViolencePrevention/pdf/SV-DataSheet-a.pdf) Here's the key thing, though: it's actually not about what you feel. Whether you don't understand, or you do understand and simply think women who feel this way are being dumb, the fact is that a lot of women feel that way. You can respect their wishes and make them feel welcome in our community, or you can choose not to. My personal opinion is that the more of us who choose the former, the better - for us and for our industry.