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This is the single most insightful comment in this thread. That's close to what the Economist said on that issue - the socialists have the political power to m

by guylhem 14y ago

This is the single most insightful comment in this thread. That's close to what the Economist said on that issue - the socialists have the political power to make such reports. These are centrist reforms - partly libertarian, partly social, but given the current status of France they are among the only possible solutions. Regarding immigration, it's not a problem when it's selected immigration like some country do - say Canada. Immigration is a problem if you are welcoming workers with little education, who come from social or religious group who holds their beliefs are superior and better than anyone else's, and are more likely to develop hatred towards the host country and grow that hate when they are forced into a social net they have no hope of escaping - and that'll also be forced on their kids due to racism etc. How good could it be for say Isreal to welcome immigration in open arms from say Iran ? I'm not talking of their nuclear scientists, remember- unselective immigration. IMHO, it wouldn't be good at all, which may be why they are not doing it :-)

seanmcdirmid 14y ago
>Immigration is a problem if you are welcoming workers with little education, who come from social or religious group who holds their beliefs are superior and better than anyone else's, and are more likely to develop hatred towards the host country and grow that hate when they are forced into a social net they have no hope of escaping - and that'll also be forced on their kids due to racism etc. Are you quoting Rush Limbaugh? >How good could it be for say Isreal to welcome immigration in open arms from say Iran ? This doesnt make sense, there were plenty of Iranian Jews who immigrated to Isreal. From what I understand, Isreal will take you if you are Jewish, they aren't very selective.
- guylhem 14y ago
  If Isreal will take you if you are Jewish, that seems selective. It doesn't seem to be than >50% of the Iranian population is Jewish. Maybe it means they will welcome people less "likely to develop hatred towards the host country" because of their preexisting beliefs and religion?
  - seanmcdirmid 14y ago
    I was just pointing put that your statement on Iran was obviously false. I never understood why France had such a hard time with muslim immigrants when they seem to completely integrate in the states within one generation. I'm sure it has to do more with the differences between Americans and French then...the immigrants themselves.
    - guylhem 14y ago
      Yeah, like there is no problem whatsoever in places as different as the Netherlands, and Australia. But you're right it seems to be working fine in the US for muslims. Something certainly related to the american culture and how open it is.
      - seanmcdirmid 14y ago
        I think Europeans are just not as open (read: non-racist) as they claim to be, while Americans are the opposite: they are not as closed as they appear to be, they just let all their anxiety out first and then just assimilate as normal. Or let's put it this way: the French go out of their way to push a "French" culture on their immigrants; whereas "American" culture isn't really defined and is very organic, meaning, like gravity, we all tend to just converge.
ckarmann 14y ago
Well, fortunately there is no country that is to France what Iran is to Israel. Or is it? :) A good part of the economic immigration today is from Africa, and they are a bit more educated and far more hard-working than one could believe (being a doctor in some African places is really not easy and you earn more washing a rich white man's dirty clothes). The problem with immigration in France seems more to have with second and third generations: kids born in France but that are not integrated in the society. They seem completely lost and without future and a lot of them evolve badly to either crime or religious extremism. If I had to point fingers, I would give a shared responsibility between public policies that have done nothing to integrate them (with school in suburbs filled with inexperienced teachers for example), racial prejudice and a lack of culture from the uneducated parents that are unable to show a good path to their kids. Selective immigration is not so easy. If they really want to, people will come, eventually. If you put hurdles in their path, you only make their integration more difficult. Speaking of the Canadian example, I am in Canada right now, and my wife being a recruiter for a call center, she hires a lot of smart immigrants who actually hold the equivalent of a Master or even a PhD. Their diploma was given in France or another European country, but it is not recognized in Canada (it is often the case for medical professions which are very locked up in Quebec). Now these doctors and researchers call people to sell them washing machines or baby diapers. That's a waste. Update: speaking of my wife and immigration, she is Romanian and had a lot of trouble finding a job in France, due to all the restrictions that Romanian nationals still suffer when they want to access the job market, and also her uncommon education path (she hold business degree from Romania and psychology degree for German university, which is great anywhere except in France when the culture of education is favoring people coming from one of the few elitist schools). One of our main reason to move to Canada was our bet that it would be easier for her there, Canadian being more open to people like her. It proved right, and she got jobs very easily. That's a huge loss for France, because she is a very smart woman! :)

by guylhem 14y ago

seanmcdirmid 14y ago

>Immigration is a problem if you are welcoming workers with little education, who come from social or religious group who holds their beliefs are superior and better than anyone else's, and are more likely to develop hatred towards the host country and grow that hate when they are forced into a social net they have no hope of escaping - and that'll also be forced on their kids due to racism etc. Are you quoting Rush Limbaugh? >How good could it be for say Isreal to welcome immigration in open arms from say Iran ? This doesnt make sense, there were plenty of Iranian Jews who immigrated to Isreal. From what I understand, Isreal will take you if you are Jewish, they aren't very selective.

guylhem 14y ago
If Isreal will take you if you are Jewish, that seems selective. It doesn't seem to be than >50% of the Iranian population is Jewish. Maybe it means they will welcome people less "likely to develop hatred towards the host country" because of their preexisting beliefs and religion?
- seanmcdirmid 14y ago
  I was just pointing put that your statement on Iran was obviously false. I never understood why France had such a hard time with muslim immigrants when they seem to completely integrate in the states within one generation. I'm sure it has to do more with the differences between Americans and French then...the immigrants themselves.
  - guylhem 14y ago
    Yeah, like there is no problem whatsoever in places as different as the Netherlands, and Australia. But you're right it seems to be working fine in the US for muslims. Something certainly related to the american culture and how open it is.
    - seanmcdirmid 14y ago
      I think Europeans are just not as open (read: non-racist) as they claim to be, while Americans are the opposite: they are not as closed as they appear to be, they just let all their anxiety out first and then just assimilate as normal. Or let's put it this way: the French go out of their way to push a "French" culture on their immigrants; whereas "American" culture isn't really defined and is very organic, meaning, like gravity, we all tend to just converge.

ckarmann 14y ago

Well, fortunately there is no country that is to France what Iran is to Israel. Or is it? :) A good part of the economic immigration today is from Africa, and they are a bit more educated and far more hard-working than one could believe (being a doctor in some African places is really not easy and you earn more washing a rich white man's dirty clothes). The problem with immigration in France seems more to have with second and third generations: kids born in France but that are not integrated in the society. They seem completely lost and without future and a lot of them evolve badly to either crime or religious extremism. If I had to point fingers, I would give a shared responsibility between public policies that have done nothing to integrate them (with school in suburbs filled with inexperienced teachers for example), racial prejudice and a lack of culture from the uneducated parents that are unable to show a good path to their kids. Selective immigration is not so easy. If they really want to, people will come, eventually. If you put hurdles in their path, you only make their integration more difficult. Speaking of the Canadian example, I am in Canada right now, and my wife being a recruiter for a call center, she hires a lot of smart immigrants who actually hold the equivalent of a Master or even a PhD. Their diploma was given in France or another European country, but it is not recognized in Canada (it is often the case for medical professions which are very locked up in Quebec). Now these doctors and researchers call people to sell them washing machines or baby diapers. That's a waste. Update: speaking of my wife and immigration, she is Romanian and had a lot of trouble finding a job in France, due to all the restrictions that Romanian nationals still suffer when they want to access the job market, and also her uncommon education path (she hold business degree from Romania and psychology degree for German university, which is great anywhere except in France when the culture of education is favoring people coming from one of the few elitist schools). One of our main reason to move to Canada was our bet that it would be easier for her there, Canadian being more open to people like her. It proved right, and she got jobs very easily. That's a huge loss for France, because she is a very smart woman! :)