6 ms·

Starting your first business in France? Here are the steps, and some great tips

111 points by wesselkooyman 14y ago

tucson 14y ago
Thanks for the post. What I find annoying is that to simply test a business idea where you need to store subscriber's email addresses you normally need to register at the CNIL for which you need a registered company which requires what is described in the article. It feels backwards somehow: you need to register a company (with all the paperwork involved) before you even know if it can work.
- jclos 14y ago
  I think that this sort of stuff is why a lot of people are afraid to create start-ups in France. Yes, there are huge taxes, but huge taxes provide a benefit (living in a decent society). This on the other hand is just an artifact from the past that nobody has bothered changing, much like how universities ask students for photocopies of every degree they got every damned year, or how much physical paper is used for trivial stuff that should be computerized. (just to clarify, I am not against the CNIL, just against the hoop-jumping mentality)
raverbashing 14y ago
Good tips Well, the bank thing seems exaggerated. Did they pick one of the main banks or one tiny one? Yes, I have had an account on France. Sure, mine was a personal account, but it was pretty straightforward. Online banking worked fine (true, I haven't done transfers) The weirdest thing (for me) about the French banking system (apart from cheques that rip from the widest margin of the book) is what they call a RIB (Releve d'Identité Bancaire), it's something that comes in your statements and is the 'key' for service providers to set up a direct debt to your account. Yes, they need that piece of paper. Public offices are weird as well, they are sometimes a row of unmarked doors, so you just have to guess, or figure it out from some faded indications and voilà
- thibaut_barrere 14y ago
  Agreed on the banks: read my comment on the article, we pay 15€/mo for top notch service (used to pay more for sub-par service). Pick a bank that is entrepreneur-friendly, not all are interested.
  - raverbashing 14y ago
    Ah, you're using Credit Agricole. Mine was BNP Paribas, not sure which one the person in the article is using.
    - thibaut_barrere 14y ago
      I can relate to what he wrote since initially I was at the CIC, which historically was good for entrepreneurs, but jumped the shark at some point, starting to sell me Virgin mobile phones etc instead of focusing on their core job. Switching was easy and totally worth it!
  - rietta 14y ago
    Paying fees for basic banking accounts is really foreign to me personally as an entrepreneur. In the U.S., the big banks all charge fees, but it has been a point of pride for me to figure out how to get the banking services needed without paying any fees. A smaller, local bank for the corporation and a credit union for my household.
- thibaut_barrere 14y ago
  Also: this is a must-read for anyone willing to start a company in France: http://www.rsi.fr//change-user/pied-de-page/espace-telechargement/brochures-thematiques/creation-dentreprise.html http://www.rsi.fr//change-user/pied-de-page/espace-telecharg... It compares the various kind of company structures, how taxes will work for each case etc, with simulations.
Jacqued 14y ago
Amazing summary, I will bookmark this even though I am french. With my co-founders, we've been looking to chose a bank and an accountant to officially start the company for some time now, and have been baffled by how much the banks charge charge for little to no service. The same holds true for accountants, although to a lesser degree as we're at the very beginning. Also, debating about the 'statuts' has been a real pain. However, this is the only part in all this process that is of actual use, since it forces the founders to agree on a lot of important ownership and processes issues from the start.
davidw 14y ago
0. Hop on a train and do it in London instead? Is that realistic, especially if you're unsure of success and don't want to go through all the bureaucracy?
- thenomad 14y ago
  With the current British government angling to leave the EU at present, that's a decision that might have unpleasant consequences in a few years for any French entrepreneur that tried this, even assuming it's practical now.
  - yummyfajitas 14y ago
    Even if Britain leaves the EU, is it really likely that they will leave the EEC? The French entrepreneur cares about free trade, not much else. And I can't see Britain or Europe shutting down trade, regardless of whether Britain sticks around or leaves.
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    - arethuza 14y ago
      My understanding is that the EEC merged into the EC which then became the EU - so I don't think the UK has the option to stay part of the EEC and leave the EU. Certainly EEC isn't a term that you here very often these days. NB Perhaps you mean EFTA rather than the EEC? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Free_Trade_Association http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Free_Trade_Association
      - _delirium 14y ago
        Yes, the EEC/EC was officially abolished with the Lisbon treaty in 2009 (though it was mostly merged into the EU even before then). However, it's still possible for non-EU members to be part of the EU's common market via the EEA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Economic_Area http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Economic_Area). EEA membership is pretty close to de-facto EU membership, though, including legislative harmonization on almost everything except agriculture/fisheries (which is what suits Norway about it), and a "voluntary" contribution that de-facto replaces EU dues. Would that satisfy UK politicians' reasons for pulling out of the EU, if they still had to pay dues and harmonize most of their legislation anyway, only without getting a vote in return? It's not clear to me they would join the EEA under those terms. And in the other direction, there's a lot of uncertainty over what they'd even have the option to join, since there's a real possibility some EU members would veto an agreement to give them an intermediate status.
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kpao 14y ago
When I read things like this, I'm glad that I was in the US at the time I had the opportunity to create my app business (flight sim app for mobile). My school mates who are still in France are having a hard time with all the overhead of french bureaucracy when doing anything... most of them are thinking of moving abroad at some point. The whole process in the US was so easy, finding a bank was a total non issue.
- thibaut_barrere 14y ago
  I don't know really; I started my company 8 years ago and it didn't appear to be that much of a hassle to be honest. I could find 3 banks willing to take us onboard in an afternoon. And I only pay 140€/mo for the whole family health-care extension :P
  - rietta 14y ago
    Okay, thanks for sharing that perspective. Perhaps its the case of different cities having different business cultures within France? Not unlike how doing a high tech startup is going to look somewhat different in the bay area of California vs in Macon, Georgia?
    - thibaut_barrere 14y ago
      There are different cultures in different cities for sure. That said I, like a growing number of people I know, do everything "online" from a very rural place of France (both doing consulting for heavily technical startups or regular companies, and launching a SaaS product), and meet entrepreneurs and technical people once per year at conferences etc. Then again I don't have employees (we're 2 cofounders as a couple), so being remote is probably easier!
eps 14y ago
Can anyone comment on what it's like to run a startup or a smaller high-tech outlet in France? Taxes, social insurance / humangous vacations, bureaucracy matters - the boring day to day stuff. I'm sure I'm not the only one playing with an idea of moving to Europe, so a first hand account would be much appreciated.
- pilooch 14y ago
  Sure. Low (or even no) taxes on yearly income if you locate your startup well (e.g. put it in an area that gets subventions or tax cuts, checkout so-called ZFU aka Zone Franche Urbaine). If you're innovating (which is, really, an administrative term, that you can put anything under), you'll get tax rebate on the salary mass that you dedicate to R&D. Even further, your startup can be labeled as a 'young innovating company' (JEI, aka Jeune Entreprise Innovante) and you get even more benefits. I (with others) operate a startup with entities both in France and in the US. It is cheaper for us to leave R&D in France because of the subventions mentioned above. Sure, you'll still get plenty of taxes and the euro is strong, which may be good or bad depending on your activities. PM me if you need more details.
jkldotio 14y ago
I've set up a business in Australia, average 2 days, and in Austria where the average is 25 days (and it went way over that for me) and I am not sure I'd do it again in Europe besides perhaps the UK. It's not so much the time and frustration, which is indeed wasted going to I think it was 4 different locations in 7 or 8 trips, but the shocking hostility of the process and people. It made me feel very unwelcome. There is also a dearth of funding and a much smaller culture of philanthropy. Although those two are not really relevant to my project, jkl.io, as I am not taking funding and looking for philanthropy from places other than Austria.
- contingencies 14y ago
  Even though I regularly meet French who whinge about their culture bureaucratique, I don't think they have anything on Asia (China, India, etc.)! I'm Aussie/Kiwi/European and have set up wholly foreign-owned businesses in China (9 months) and Hong Kong (2 hours). I believe AU+NZ are pretty damn straightforward. Have to mention: this article reads so obviously like an American wrote it, it's kind of amusing .. impatient, US spelling, notion of a 'check book'. Come on! Welcome to Europe, you're in the developed world now. We have online banking that actually functions... at minor or no cost across the whole region. We don't generally use cheques. Even China's consumer banking system is more efficient than America's, in my experience. You will learn to love it in Europe :)
  - jkldotio 14y ago
    It took me almost as long as setting up a business in Austria to get just a business visa for India so I agree with you on that point. AU+NZ (check out the coverage of NZ on my site, what do you think?) are the models to follow for business registration I think. Given they've proven it can be done in one or two days I am not sure how the other countries can justify the delays.
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guylhem 14y ago
Some incorrections here and there in the article, I want to add some fixes: - I wouldn't say the exigence of having a bank account is humiliating for a company. The process of opening one can be, however. But you can pick up any bank you want in any EU country you want. They can't "discriminate" against say a Luxembourg bank if you think this bank will serve you better. That's the EU market- same currency, and they can't change you fees for sending/receiving money from/to EU countries. I have a french bank, and I really like the idea of a conseiller - I want a single person I can talk to. Previously I had a bank which worked differently - I basically saw a different person every 6 month, while I had complex stuff that needed to be done and lost time reexplaining everything again and again. Now I have had one person for the last 3 years, that get things done by email, fax or phone. I like that. And when I decided to take my business to some other bank because it worked even better (phone service 24/7, with a limited number of person handling your case because you conseiller can't work around the clock) I never even had to go there in person- did that while travelling abroad, sending scans of my ID documents, having the account ready 24h later, having the paperwork they sent in return waiting for my signature at home since they just wanted a physical signature too. BTW you know why there's so much red tape with french bank? bankers are legally responsible if you launder money using their services and if they didn't ask you basic questions designed to flag such cases. Some take risks, some don't. If you see a bank involved in a big scandal, pick it - it usually means it has less red tape, serves customers better, but some con men abuse it. If you don't care about the reputation of your bank (I don't) you get efficiency. - the address fees depend on the company you create. For some corporate types it will be fully free to change your address as much as you want, and you can "upgrade" your startup to any type. You may want to start as a Autoentrepreneur (personally liable), then switch to a EURL, then a SARL, then a SAS - you'll pay almost nothing for the first 3 types. EDIT: someone posted this link to compare them: http://www.rsi.fr//change-user/pied-de-page/espace-telechargement/brochures-thematiques/creation-dentreprise.html http://www.rsi.fr//change-user/pied-de-page/espace-telecharg... - for the step 2 and 3, I'm sorry to disagree here, but why didn't you file online instead? That's usually simpler - there are also what is called "unified" centers usually within ursaff offices to do everything in one place, with civil servants who know their job and can even check and fix basic mistakes in your file - for free! The whole process exist so that you can get the legal numbers (for tax, payroll, vat) within a day!! - accountants sucks, and there's worse- whether you do your accounting or whether they do it, any mistake there is - it's your responsibility. The taxman will go after you anyway, it might be a good idea to learn the basics yourself, if only to avoid poor service. If you take an accountant you get a tax break (especially for the less complicated corporate forms) but take some "for dummies" guide and you're ready to go. I'm french, and I wouldn't say the process is overtly complicated when you have some experience doing it. It's sometimes quite efficient - I have one person in the tax office who knows my file and cell number, who I can call if I have any specific question, and who can call me back if there is any problem. Also we have great laws: for ex, between companies, an exchange of emails can constitute proof of contract, like a signature. You don't need as much paperwork if you know the law. The real problem is the corporate environment - your company may work with french company and customers. Most of them are not even worth the euros they'll bring. Make sure you add the customary letters at the end of each bill, reminding them that any overdelayed payment will result on late fees + interest. Personally, unless I personally know the guys or the company that need my services, I don't take french clients anymore. Been burnt too many times on too many technicalities. I've had the pleasure to bill a HN company (hello there if you read this!) - a pleasure to deal with. EDIT : some corrections All things considered, I should let you know I am examining the corporate situation in Canada, to have a place where hiring (and firing if needed) might be less problematic, along with companies that may be more pleasant to work with when I need outside help, or as clients. Hiring in France is taking a real risk. You don't want to hire in France - you don't want to hire any one, at any salary. Just don't do it, trust me. Also, Europe has some new demons recently- there's a lot of hate going on there, especially in France, now with casual aggression too (not even for the money) etc. When I visit mainland France, I play a game with friends, sitting at a cafe terrace : we watch people shop etc, and we make bets: mine usually is whether we would see someone getting beat up within 1 hour - and I won every single time, in the center of Toulouse - (in)famous city, last year at the same time a guy was shooting down schoolchildren and their teacher, because they were jewish. My mom was attacked twice these last 2 years - with a knife, in the city center. A cop got the guy - well, two of them, because the one who caught it was stabbed 13 times and was sent to the hospital. The guy was released from jail because of a technicality in the prosecution. Racism and hatred are rampant, cops are giving up on some neighbourhoods, etc. I'm not talking about hearsay here, but from a personal account. I trust my mom. Now she has had a new passport made - one that doesn't say "France" on it, and might get used if the situation gets too bad. Some compare the situation in France to NYC of the 1980, prior to the introduction of tougher laws. I don't really know how to understand it. It's complicated. There are basically groups of people growing apart from each other, and hating eachother more and more - a bad recipe for any country. If physicial safety is something you value, try to spend 6 month there first, to see if it is something you can live with - especially if you are a female founder considering any big city suburbs (cheaper rend, tax breaks for ZFU, etc). I added these little warnings after proofreading my text, because I realized I was painting maybe a too rosy picture: there is no paradise on earth, and creating your company in France won't be as complicated as some make it sounds, if you like french food you'll love it there, but for what I value life is much better on the other side of the atlantic. You are free not to trust a single word of what I say - just go live there and try to make a decision by yourself.
ctek 14y ago
Can anyone explain European rubber stamp-fetishism? Has there ever been a study done showing that rubber stamping practically everything (20 euro purchase at an electronics store) is effective in preventing forging of documents? To an outsider visiting continental Europe the practice looks redundant and almost comical.
- TelmoMenezes 14y ago
  I think it's a mix of several things: - A bloated public sector that is protective of it's jobs and represents a large percentage of the electorate (also very motivated to go on a massive strike if you even think about reducing the complexity of the system) - An aversion towards real capitalism. Europe is still pretty much a class system. It's ok to want to have a better education and job than your parents, but wanting to do something more spectacular is almost equated with "being up to no good" - You cannot be fired from a public sector job, so you have absolutely no incentive to care (some people still do, but they're not the norm)
- fhars 14y ago
  Getting the stamp on the 20 euro electronics purchase is in the customer's best interest as it is a proof that he purchased the item there and so can get warranty service from the seller (I don't know if "warranty" is the correct term here, in German we have two words for two concepts that wikipedia both links to the English "warranty" and that most people confuse anyway: "Garantie" (cognate to "warranty") which is a voluntary service offered by the producer, and "Gewährleistung", which is a legally mandated service by the seller. The stamp documents your right to get "Gewährleistung" from the seller who puts his stamp on your receipt, and usually the producer's "Garantie" requires that stamp, too).
  - ctek 14y ago
    It is more difficult to forge a stamped receipt, true. As to whether it proves that you purchased the item is debatable because both a receipt and a stamped receipt can be easily forged. The question is: is it necessary? Tally up all the man-hours a country spends stamping receipts. Could that time be put to better use? North America seems to function fine without them. Perhaps we've come to realize them as redundant - or are we too gullible to not demand rubber stamped receipts in the first place?
juskrey 14y ago
Thanks for the article. And thanks God, nowadays we can open business in nearly any country, just be sure to have some coins for air ticket..
patrickaljord 14y ago
Just don't start a company in France, at least not if you can avoid it which is the case for most startups (just go to Luxembourg or whatever). Not for the one week hassle, but because if you're looking for investors or if you want to sell it later, you and they'll have to pay close to 70% taxes so it will be a tough sell. Also, if you need to hire employees you will have to go through the expensive hell that is managing/hiring/firing employees and the crazy expensive taxes. Just not worth it. The only case where you could start a company is if you're a one man shop freelancing startup (or a non-startup that needs to start a company for physical reasons such as a grocery store etc). Just my two-cents.
TelmoMenezes 14y ago
Dealing with banks in France is a humiliating experience even if you're not a company. They have way too much unchecked power and, ultimately, treat you like a criminal. For example, if you do an international bank transfer, you might get a phone call to explain it. If they don't like the explanation, they will freeze your account. They even freeze accounts if you get an unusual bonus from your employer and they find it odd for some reason. French people seem to find it all normal because they grew up in this system, but people that come from abroad quickly learn to be terrified of French banks.
- rtpg 14y ago
  that's funny because I've had the opposite experience with my bank (Societe Generale). I've been able to call them up for most anything and they've been super reactive. Maybe it's all the fees I pay
rietta 14y ago
Wow! I read through this entire article and the thing that struck home is even how painful this process sounds vs my experience incorporating businesses in my home State in the United States. Even banking wasn't as big of a problem due to the level of competition among banks and that the local smaller banks still even offer free basic checking to business accounts.
tigrish 14y ago
Starting your business in France? Step 1, register it in the UK...
- mcansky 14y ago
  not entirely true : if you are a french resident Dual Taxes Treaty apply ... If you work from France or do business with French companies you'll end up paying some taxes to France. if anyone got more details on this topic I'm interested, please pm.
ckarmann 14y ago
I have been there, done that. In my experience, the problems do not end after the business creation. If you are like I was, an unemployed guy trying to start its own business with a few equally unemployed associates, you applied for the ACCRE subvention which was, at that time (2005) the worst piece of bureaucratic form I ever experienced. Then you get a load of accounting obligations. The "siege social" was at my own address and I had to move after a while, which produced another round of bureaucracy hoopla to change the business address. It took some time and the post office was refusing to give me my mail as long as I couldn't give a Kbis with the new address. I haven't had the chance to have employees before the business collapsed, but what I've read about what to do when you hire people and the risk you take was very untempting. Now the things has apparently been better, and a new very simplified status has been created for one-person businesses (the "auto-entrepreneur"). It is my status right now and it is quite fine. But if I start earning too much money (more than 30K euros a year) I'm forced to change my status and go trough all this again.
andyl 14y ago
Great article, but doesn't cover the mother of all French bureaucratic challenges - employment law!
a3_nm 14y ago
> the Internet interface will only let you do small amounts, and only to pre-entered recipients. Who enters those recipients? You guessed it – your conseiller! I do not think this is true. With my French bank account, I can add recipients for online recipients without interacting with my conseiller. I do need a confirmation code sent through SMS to confirm additions (a poor man's two-factor authentication) but that's it.
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Aloisius 14y ago
Out of curiosity, how hard is it to get a visa to start a startup in France as a US citizen? I've toyed with the idea of starting something in Paris. There appears to be ample opportunity even if all you want to do is create a French version of some other successful product.

111 points by wesselkooyman 14y ago

Thanks for the post. What I find annoying is that to simply test a business idea where you need to store subscriber's email addresses you normally need to register at the CNIL for which you need a registered company which requires what is described in the article. It feels backwards somehow: you need to register a company (with all the paperwork involved) before you even know if it can work.

jclos 14y ago
I think that this sort of stuff is why a lot of people are afraid to create start-ups in France. Yes, there are huge taxes, but huge taxes provide a benefit (living in a decent society). This on the other hand is just an artifact from the past that nobody has bothered changing, much like how universities ask students for photocopies of every degree they got every damned year, or how much physical paper is used for trivial stuff that should be computerized. (just to clarify, I am not against the CNIL, just against the hoop-jumping mentality)

raverbashing 14y ago

Good tips Well, the bank thing seems exaggerated. Did they pick one of the main banks or one tiny one? Yes, I have had an account on France. Sure, mine was a personal account, but it was pretty straightforward. Online banking worked fine (true, I haven't done transfers) The weirdest thing (for me) about the French banking system (apart from cheques that rip from the widest margin of the book) is what they call a RIB (Releve d'Identité Bancaire), it's something that comes in your statements and is the 'key' for service providers to set up a direct debt to your account. Yes, they need that piece of paper. Public offices are weird as well, they are sometimes a row of unmarked doors, so you just have to guess, or figure it out from some faded indications and voilà

thibaut_barrere 14y ago
Agreed on the banks: read my comment on the article, we pay 15€/mo for top notch service (used to pay more for sub-par service). Pick a bank that is entrepreneur-friendly, not all are interested.
- raverbashing 14y ago
  Ah, you're using Credit Agricole. Mine was BNP Paribas, not sure which one the person in the article is using.
  - thibaut_barrere 14y ago
    I can relate to what he wrote since initially I was at the CIC, which historically was good for entrepreneurs, but jumped the shark at some point, starting to sell me Virgin mobile phones etc instead of focusing on their core job. Switching was easy and totally worth it!
- rietta 14y ago
  Paying fees for basic banking accounts is really foreign to me personally as an entrepreneur. In the U.S., the big banks all charge fees, but it has been a point of pride for me to figure out how to get the banking services needed without paying any fees. A smaller, local bank for the corporation and a credit union for my household.
thibaut_barrere 14y ago
Also: this is a must-read for anyone willing to start a company in France: http://www.rsi.fr//change-user/pied-de-page/espace-telechargement/brochures-thematiques/creation-dentreprise.html http://www.rsi.fr//change-user/pied-de-page/espace-telecharg... It compares the various kind of company structures, how taxes will work for each case etc, with simulations.

Jacqued 14y ago

Amazing summary, I will bookmark this even though I am french. With my co-founders, we've been looking to chose a bank and an accountant to officially start the company for some time now, and have been baffled by how much the banks charge charge for little to no service. The same holds true for accountants, although to a lesser degree as we're at the very beginning. Also, debating about the 'statuts' has been a real pain. However, this is the only part in all this process that is of actual use, since it forces the founders to agree on a lot of important ownership and processes issues from the start.

davidw 14y ago

0. Hop on a train and do it in London instead? Is that realistic, especially if you're unsure of success and don't want to go through all the bureaucracy?

thenomad 14y ago
With the current British government angling to leave the EU at present, that's a decision that might have unpleasant consequences in a few years for any French entrepreneur that tried this, even assuming it's practical now.
- yummyfajitas 14y ago
  Even if Britain leaves the EU, is it really likely that they will leave the EEC? The French entrepreneur cares about free trade, not much else. And I can't see Britain or Europe shutting down trade, regardless of whether Britain sticks around or leaves.
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  - arethuza 14y ago
    My understanding is that the EEC merged into the EC which then became the EU - so I don't think the UK has the option to stay part of the EEC and leave the EU. Certainly EEC isn't a term that you here very often these days. NB Perhaps you mean EFTA rather than the EEC? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Free_Trade_Association http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Free_Trade_Association
    - _delirium 14y ago
      Yes, the EEC/EC was officially abolished with the Lisbon treaty in 2009 (though it was mostly merged into the EU even before then). However, it's still possible for non-EU members to be part of the EU's common market via the EEA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Economic_Area http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Economic_Area). EEA membership is pretty close to de-facto EU membership, though, including legislative harmonization on almost everything except agriculture/fisheries (which is what suits Norway about it), and a "voluntary" contribution that de-facto replaces EU dues. Would that satisfy UK politicians' reasons for pulling out of the EU, if they still had to pay dues and harmonize most of their legislation anyway, only without getting a vote in return? It's not clear to me they would join the EEA under those terms. And in the other direction, there's a lot of uncertainty over what they'd even have the option to join, since there's a real possibility some EU members would veto an agreement to give them an intermediate status.

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kpao 14y ago

When I read things like this, I'm glad that I was in the US at the time I had the opportunity to create my app business (flight sim app for mobile). My school mates who are still in France are having a hard time with all the overhead of french bureaucracy when doing anything... most of them are thinking of moving abroad at some point. The whole process in the US was so easy, finding a bank was a total non issue.

thibaut_barrere 14y ago
I don't know really; I started my company 8 years ago and it didn't appear to be that much of a hassle to be honest. I could find 3 banks willing to take us onboard in an afternoon. And I only pay 140€/mo for the whole family health-care extension :P
- rietta 14y ago
  Okay, thanks for sharing that perspective. Perhaps its the case of different cities having different business cultures within France? Not unlike how doing a high tech startup is going to look somewhat different in the bay area of California vs in Macon, Georgia?
  - thibaut_barrere 14y ago
    There are different cultures in different cities for sure. That said I, like a growing number of people I know, do everything "online" from a very rural place of France (both doing consulting for heavily technical startups or regular companies, and launching a SaaS product), and meet entrepreneurs and technical people once per year at conferences etc. Then again I don't have employees (we're 2 cofounders as a couple), so being remote is probably easier!

eps 14y ago

Can anyone comment on what it's like to run a startup or a smaller high-tech outlet in France? Taxes, social insurance / humangous vacations, bureaucracy matters - the boring day to day stuff. I'm sure I'm not the only one playing with an idea of moving to Europe, so a first hand account would be much appreciated.

pilooch 14y ago
Sure. Low (or even no) taxes on yearly income if you locate your startup well (e.g. put it in an area that gets subventions or tax cuts, checkout so-called ZFU aka Zone Franche Urbaine). If you're innovating (which is, really, an administrative term, that you can put anything under), you'll get tax rebate on the salary mass that you dedicate to R&D. Even further, your startup can be labeled as a 'young innovating company' (JEI, aka Jeune Entreprise Innovante) and you get even more benefits. I (with others) operate a startup with entities both in France and in the US. It is cheaper for us to leave R&D in France because of the subventions mentioned above. Sure, you'll still get plenty of taxes and the euro is strong, which may be good or bad depending on your activities. PM me if you need more details.

jkldotio 14y ago

I've set up a business in Australia, average 2 days, and in Austria where the average is 25 days (and it went way over that for me) and I am not sure I'd do it again in Europe besides perhaps the UK. It's not so much the time and frustration, which is indeed wasted going to I think it was 4 different locations in 7 or 8 trips, but the shocking hostility of the process and people. It made me feel very unwelcome. There is also a dearth of funding and a much smaller culture of philanthropy. Although those two are not really relevant to my project, jkl.io, as I am not taking funding and looking for philanthropy from places other than Austria.

contingencies 14y ago
Even though I regularly meet French who whinge about their culture bureaucratique, I don't think they have anything on Asia (China, India, etc.)! I'm Aussie/Kiwi/European and have set up wholly foreign-owned businesses in China (9 months) and Hong Kong (2 hours). I believe AU+NZ are pretty damn straightforward. Have to mention: this article reads so obviously like an American wrote it, it's kind of amusing .. impatient, US spelling, notion of a 'check book'. Come on! Welcome to Europe, you're in the developed world now. We have online banking that actually functions... at minor or no cost across the whole region. We don't generally use cheques. Even China's consumer banking system is more efficient than America's, in my experience. You will learn to love it in Europe :)
- jkldotio 14y ago
  It took me almost as long as setting up a business in Austria to get just a business visa for India so I agree with you on that point. AU+NZ (check out the coverage of NZ on my site, what do you think?) are the models to follow for business registration I think. Given they've proven it can be done in one or two days I am not sure how the other countries can justify the delays.
- deleted 14y ago
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guylhem 14y ago

Some incorrections here and there in the article, I want to add some fixes: - I wouldn't say the exigence of having a bank account is humiliating for a company. The process of opening one can be, however. But you can pick up any bank you want in any EU country you want. They can't "discriminate" against say a Luxembourg bank if you think this bank will serve you better. That's the EU market- same currency, and they can't change you fees for sending/receiving money from/to EU countries. I have a french bank, and I really like the idea of a conseiller - I want a single person I can talk to. Previously I had a bank which worked differently - I basically saw a different person every 6 month, while I had complex stuff that needed to be done and lost time reexplaining everything again and again. Now I have had one person for the last 3 years, that get things done by email, fax or phone. I like that. And when I decided to take my business to some other bank because it worked even better (phone service 24/7, with a limited number of person handling your case because you conseiller can't work around the clock) I never even had to go there in person- did that while travelling abroad, sending scans of my ID documents, having the account ready 24h later, having the paperwork they sent in return waiting for my signature at home since they just wanted a physical signature too. BTW you know why there's so much red tape with french bank? bankers are legally responsible if you launder money using their services and if they didn't ask you basic questions designed to flag such cases. Some take risks, some don't. If you see a bank involved in a big scandal, pick it - it usually means it has less red tape, serves customers better, but some con men abuse it. If you don't care about the reputation of your bank (I don't) you get efficiency. - the address fees depend on the company you create. For some corporate types it will be fully free to change your address as much as you want, and you can "upgrade" your startup to any type. You may want to start as a Autoentrepreneur (personally liable), then switch to a EURL, then a SARL, then a SAS - you'll pay almost nothing for the first 3 types. EDIT: someone posted this link to compare them: http://www.rsi.fr//change-user/pied-de-page/espace-telechargement/brochures-thematiques/creation-dentreprise.html http://www.rsi.fr//change-user/pied-de-page/espace-telecharg... - for the step 2 and 3, I'm sorry to disagree here, but why didn't you file online instead? That's usually simpler - there are also what is called "unified" centers usually within ursaff offices to do everything in one place, with civil servants who know their job and can even check and fix basic mistakes in your file - for free! The whole process exist so that you can get the legal numbers (for tax, payroll, vat) within a day!! - accountants sucks, and there's worse- whether you do your accounting or whether they do it, any mistake there is - it's your responsibility. The taxman will go after you anyway, it might be a good idea to learn the basics yourself, if only to avoid poor service. If you take an accountant you get a tax break (especially for the less complicated corporate forms) but take some "for dummies" guide and you're ready to go. I'm french, and I wouldn't say the process is overtly complicated when you have some experience doing it. It's sometimes quite efficient - I have one person in the tax office who knows my file and cell number, who I can call if I have any specific question, and who can call me back if there is any problem. Also we have great laws: for ex, between companies, an exchange of emails can constitute proof of contract, like a signature. You don't need as much paperwork if you know the law. The real problem is the corporate environment - your company may work with french company and customers. Most of them are not even worth the euros they'll bring. Make sure you add the customary letters at the end of each bill, reminding them that any overdelayed payment will result on late fees + interest. Personally, unless I personally know the guys or the company that need my services, I don't take french clients anymore. Been burnt too many times on too many technicalities. I've had the pleasure to bill a HN company (hello there if you read this!) - a pleasure to deal with. EDIT : some corrections All things considered, I should let you know I am examining the corporate situation in Canada, to have a place where hiring (and firing if needed) might be less problematic, along with companies that may be more pleasant to work with when I need outside help, or as clients. Hiring in France is taking a real risk. You don't want to hire in France - you don't want to hire any one, at any salary. Just don't do it, trust me. Also, Europe has some new demons recently- there's a lot of hate going on there, especially in France, now with casual aggression too (not even for the money) etc. When I visit mainland France, I play a game with friends, sitting at a cafe terrace : we watch people shop etc, and we make bets: mine usually is whether we would see someone getting beat up within 1 hour - and I won every single time, in the center of Toulouse - (in)famous city, last year at the same time a guy was shooting down schoolchildren and their teacher, because they were jewish. My mom was attacked twice these last 2 years - with a knife, in the city center. A cop got the guy - well, two of them, because the one who caught it was stabbed 13 times and was sent to the hospital. The guy was released from jail because of a technicality in the prosecution. Racism and hatred are rampant, cops are giving up on some neighbourhoods, etc. I'm not talking about hearsay here, but from a personal account. I trust my mom. Now she has had a new passport made - one that doesn't say "France" on it, and might get used if the situation gets too bad. Some compare the situation in France to NYC of the 1980, prior to the introduction of tougher laws. I don't really know how to understand it. It's complicated. There are basically groups of people growing apart from each other, and hating eachother more and more - a bad recipe for any country. If physicial safety is something you value, try to spend 6 month there first, to see if it is something you can live with - especially if you are a female founder considering any big city suburbs (cheaper rend, tax breaks for ZFU, etc). I added these little warnings after proofreading my text, because I realized I was painting maybe a too rosy picture: there is no paradise on earth, and creating your company in France won't be as complicated as some make it sounds, if you like french food you'll love it there, but for what I value life is much better on the other side of the atlantic. You are free not to trust a single word of what I say - just go live there and try to make a decision by yourself.

ctek 14y ago

Can anyone explain European rubber stamp-fetishism? Has there ever been a study done showing that rubber stamping practically everything (20 euro purchase at an electronics store) is effective in preventing forging of documents? To an outsider visiting continental Europe the practice looks redundant and almost comical.

TelmoMenezes 14y ago
I think it's a mix of several things: - A bloated public sector that is protective of it's jobs and represents a large percentage of the electorate (also very motivated to go on a massive strike if you even think about reducing the complexity of the system) - An aversion towards real capitalism. Europe is still pretty much a class system. It's ok to want to have a better education and job than your parents, but wanting to do something more spectacular is almost equated with "being up to no good" - You cannot be fired from a public sector job, so you have absolutely no incentive to care (some people still do, but they're not the norm)
fhars 14y ago
Getting the stamp on the 20 euro electronics purchase is in the customer's best interest as it is a proof that he purchased the item there and so can get warranty service from the seller (I don't know if "warranty" is the correct term here, in German we have two words for two concepts that wikipedia both links to the English "warranty" and that most people confuse anyway: "Garantie" (cognate to "warranty") which is a voluntary service offered by the producer, and "Gewährleistung", which is a legally mandated service by the seller. The stamp documents your right to get "Gewährleistung" from the seller who puts his stamp on your receipt, and usually the producer's "Garantie" requires that stamp, too).
- ctek 14y ago
  It is more difficult to forge a stamped receipt, true. As to whether it proves that you purchased the item is debatable because both a receipt and a stamped receipt can be easily forged. The question is: is it necessary? Tally up all the man-hours a country spends stamping receipts. Could that time be put to better use? North America seems to function fine without them. Perhaps we've come to realize them as redundant - or are we too gullible to not demand rubber stamped receipts in the first place?

juskrey 14y ago

Thanks for the article. And thanks God, nowadays we can open business in nearly any country, just be sure to have some coins for air ticket..

patrickaljord 14y ago

Just don't start a company in France, at least not if you can avoid it which is the case for most startups (just go to Luxembourg or whatever). Not for the one week hassle, but because if you're looking for investors or if you want to sell it later, you and they'll have to pay close to 70% taxes so it will be a tough sell. Also, if you need to hire employees you will have to go through the expensive hell that is managing/hiring/firing employees and the crazy expensive taxes. Just not worth it. The only case where you could start a company is if you're a one man shop freelancing startup (or a non-startup that needs to start a company for physical reasons such as a grocery store etc). Just my two-cents.

TelmoMenezes 14y ago

Dealing with banks in France is a humiliating experience even if you're not a company. They have way too much unchecked power and, ultimately, treat you like a criminal. For example, if you do an international bank transfer, you might get a phone call to explain it. If they don't like the explanation, they will freeze your account. They even freeze accounts if you get an unusual bonus from your employer and they find it odd for some reason. French people seem to find it all normal because they grew up in this system, but people that come from abroad quickly learn to be terrified of French banks.

rtpg 14y ago
that's funny because I've had the opposite experience with my bank (Societe Generale). I've been able to call them up for most anything and they've been super reactive. Maybe it's all the fees I pay

rietta 14y ago

Wow! I read through this entire article and the thing that struck home is even how painful this process sounds vs my experience incorporating businesses in my home State in the United States. Even banking wasn't as big of a problem due to the level of competition among banks and that the local smaller banks still even offer free basic checking to business accounts.

tigrish 14y ago

Starting your business in France? Step 1, register it in the UK...

mcansky 14y ago
not entirely true : if you are a french resident Dual Taxes Treaty apply ... If you work from France or do business with French companies you'll end up paying some taxes to France. if anyone got more details on this topic I'm interested, please pm.

ckarmann 14y ago

I have been there, done that. In my experience, the problems do not end after the business creation. If you are like I was, an unemployed guy trying to start its own business with a few equally unemployed associates, you applied for the ACCRE subvention which was, at that time (2005) the worst piece of bureaucratic form I ever experienced. Then you get a load of accounting obligations. The "siege social" was at my own address and I had to move after a while, which produced another round of bureaucracy hoopla to change the business address. It took some time and the post office was refusing to give me my mail as long as I couldn't give a Kbis with the new address. I haven't had the chance to have employees before the business collapsed, but what I've read about what to do when you hire people and the risk you take was very untempting. Now the things has apparently been better, and a new very simplified status has been created for one-person businesses (the "auto-entrepreneur"). It is my status right now and it is quite fine. But if I start earning too much money (more than 30K euros a year) I'm forced to change my status and go trough all this again.

andyl 14y ago

Great article, but doesn't cover the mother of all French bureaucratic challenges - employment law!

a3_nm 14y ago

> the Internet interface will only let you do small amounts, and only to pre-entered recipients. Who enters those recipients? You guessed it – your conseiller! I do not think this is true. With my French bank account, I can add recipients for online recipients without interacting with my conseiller. I do need a confirmation code sent through SMS to confirm additions (a poor man's two-factor authentication) but that's it.

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Aloisius 14y ago

Out of curiosity, how hard is it to get a visa to start a startup in France as a US citizen? I've toyed with the idea of starting something in Paris. There appears to be ample opportunity even if all you want to do is create a French version of some other successful product.