4 ms·

Hi, I'm a short-sighted anti-intellectual software nerd.. who has done a lot of hiring and programming, management, and/or analysis work with the people hired f

Hi, I'm a short-sighted anti-intellectual software nerd.. who has done a lot of hiring and programming, management, and/or analysis work with the people hired for years thereafter. IME, a PhD in the closest related subject to the job is a negative, but not a damning one. Some of these folks just seem to put their head down, ignore the things around them, and tend to take overly complex approaches to problems rather than tending to eliminating problems. I've guessed this comes from the mentality you have to be in to complete a PhD. That said.. I've known some pretty cool PhDs in the relevant subject too. My favorite candidates are actually PhD /dropouts/. I've really enjoyed people who were smart enough to get a PhD, but found going into one deep topic for years in academia wasn't for them. Also, PhDs from a different area seem cool too. They're smart, and the mere fact they're applying to something outside of what they mastered proves they're not the sort I'm afraid of.

jlees 18y ago
My favorite candidates are actually PhD /dropouts/. I've really enjoyed people who were smart enough to get a PhD, but found going into one deep topic for years in academia wasn't for them. As one of 'em, I obviously agree, but what I found surprising is the number of 'normal' people who do too. In academia, the very thought of leaving my PhD was unmentionable. I struggled for a long time coming to the final decision and was even referred to counselling to 'make sure' I was fully mentally stable (of course I wasn't! who is?). Since leaving I've had nothing but thumbs-up from people about it, and that's been a real surprise. So +1 to dropping out!
timr 18y ago
"Some of these folks just seem to put their head down, ignore the things around them, and tend to take overly complex approaches to problems rather than tending to eliminating problems." ...which is a true statement for all coders, not just those people with a PhD. In fact, I think you'd be hard-pressed to come up with a description that is more generally applicable to the autistic world of the software nerd. You can candy-coat it any way you like, but what you're doing here is making a generalization about a group of people based on their choice to pursue an advanced degree.
- plinkplonk 18y ago
  "You can candy-coat it any way you like, but what you're doing here is making a generalization about a group of people based on their choice to pursue an advanced degree" which is then one step away from generalizing about people on other attributes, like race or sex.
  - DanielBMarkham 18y ago
    Which is a good thing: we make generalizations because we don't have the cognitive ability to instantly assign a million variables to every stimulus. Generalization keeps us sane. When it becomes a bad thing is when we allow these mental shortcuts to take the place of sound reasoning, as in when we are looking at job applicants. Never think that stereotyping or generalizing is bad -- it's the way your brain works, and for good reason.
    - plinkplonk 18y ago
      "Which is a good thing" If this was a response to "generalizing about people on other attributes, like race or sex.", I have to disagree with you, since the context of discussion here is about selecting someone for a job. I have yet to see a valid generalization about sex or race providing an indicator about programming ability. "Never think that stereotyping or generalizing is bad -- it's the way your brain works," and unless overridden with logic, it is also the way prejudice (in this case racism and sexism ) operate. Just so we don't go round and round, my opinion on generalization from examples: generalization is neither good nor bad by itself - it depends on the quality of the data and the inference mechanism - it could lead to good or bad depending on what it results in. It is a facility of the brain certainly but being human means you are not blindly subject to your generalizations. All imho. Feel free to disgaree.
  - deleted 18y ago
    [deleted]
  - sdp 18y ago
    "which is then one step away from generalizing about people on other attributes, like race or sex." Since pursuing an advanced degree is a choice, rather than an attribute you're born with, it is much more akin to generalizing about a group of people based on their choice to pursue a degree at all.
deleted 18y ago
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- plinkplonk 18y ago
  "In other words, completing a PhD shows you can get complicated stuff done. It does not show that you can get stuff done quickly." By this logic, a masters or bachelors degree does not "show that you can get stuff done quickly" either, especially since most PhD students either have a masters degree already or they do the equivalent (of amsters degree) work before they start the work to "solve a single problem in excruciating detail". If you are saying that the degree is unimportant either way and you make your decisions on hiring on the basis of other things(say open source contributions or industry work experience) that is self consistent. Due Disclosure: I have no formal education of in Computer Science and no masters or PhD degrees of any kind. :-)
  - deleted 18y ago
    [deleted]
  - etal 18y ago
    As a PhD student, I get criticism for taking on tasks that are short, useful and possibly clever, but not novel. If it can't go into a published paper, it's a waste of time, apparently. And really, there are so many minor improvements that can be made in academic life -- like maintaining the public web server for an app or database you published a paper about, or getting source code documented and ready for release -- that if you take all of them on as they appear, you'll have almost no time for writing papers, grants and a dissertation. PhD students are trained to neglect the simple stuff in order to get through school. So I can see how a PhD dropout could be positive. The best coworkers are the ones that can either prioritize and take care of the simple stuff so quickly that it's not a problem, or can switch back into "get things done" mode when it's needed.

jlees 18y ago

My favorite candidates are actually PhD /dropouts/. I've really enjoyed people who were smart enough to get a PhD, but found going into one deep topic for years in academia wasn't for them. As one of 'em, I obviously agree, but what I found surprising is the number of 'normal' people who do too. In academia, the very thought of leaving my PhD was unmentionable. I struggled for a long time coming to the final decision and was even referred to counselling to 'make sure' I was fully mentally stable (of course I wasn't! who is?). Since leaving I've had nothing but thumbs-up from people about it, and that's been a real surprise. So +1 to dropping out!

timr 18y ago

"Some of these folks just seem to put their head down, ignore the things around them, and tend to take overly complex approaches to problems rather than tending to eliminating problems." ...which is a true statement for all coders, not just those people with a PhD. In fact, I think you'd be hard-pressed to come up with a description that is more generally applicable to the autistic world of the software nerd. You can candy-coat it any way you like, but what you're doing here is making a generalization about a group of people based on their choice to pursue an advanced degree.

plinkplonk 18y ago
"You can candy-coat it any way you like, but what you're doing here is making a generalization about a group of people based on their choice to pursue an advanced degree" which is then one step away from generalizing about people on other attributes, like race or sex.
- DanielBMarkham 18y ago
  Which is a good thing: we make generalizations because we don't have the cognitive ability to instantly assign a million variables to every stimulus. Generalization keeps us sane. When it becomes a bad thing is when we allow these mental shortcuts to take the place of sound reasoning, as in when we are looking at job applicants. Never think that stereotyping or generalizing is bad -- it's the way your brain works, and for good reason.
  - plinkplonk 18y ago
    "Which is a good thing" If this was a response to "generalizing about people on other attributes, like race or sex.", I have to disagree with you, since the context of discussion here is about selecting someone for a job. I have yet to see a valid generalization about sex or race providing an indicator about programming ability. "Never think that stereotyping or generalizing is bad -- it's the way your brain works," and unless overridden with logic, it is also the way prejudice (in this case racism and sexism ) operate. Just so we don't go round and round, my opinion on generalization from examples: generalization is neither good nor bad by itself - it depends on the quality of the data and the inference mechanism - it could lead to good or bad depending on what it results in. It is a facility of the brain certainly but being human means you are not blindly subject to your generalizations. All imho. Feel free to disgaree.
- deleted 18y ago
  [deleted]
- sdp 18y ago
  "which is then one step away from generalizing about people on other attributes, like race or sex." Since pursuing an advanced degree is a choice, rather than an attribute you're born with, it is much more akin to generalizing about a group of people based on their choice to pursue a degree at all.

deleted 18y ago

[deleted]

plinkplonk 18y ago
"In other words, completing a PhD shows you can get complicated stuff done. It does not show that you can get stuff done quickly." By this logic, a masters or bachelors degree does not "show that you can get stuff done quickly" either, especially since most PhD students either have a masters degree already or they do the equivalent (of amsters degree) work before they start the work to "solve a single problem in excruciating detail". If you are saying that the degree is unimportant either way and you make your decisions on hiring on the basis of other things(say open source contributions or industry work experience) that is self consistent. Due Disclosure: I have no formal education of in Computer Science and no masters or PhD degrees of any kind. :-)
- deleted 18y ago
  [deleted]
- etal 18y ago
  As a PhD student, I get criticism for taking on tasks that are short, useful and possibly clever, but not novel. If it can't go into a published paper, it's a waste of time, apparently. And really, there are so many minor improvements that can be made in academic life -- like maintaining the public web server for an app or database you published a paper about, or getting source code documented and ready for release -- that if you take all of them on as they appear, you'll have almost no time for writing papers, grants and a dissertation. PhD students are trained to neglect the simple stuff in order to get through school. So I can see how a PhD dropout could be positive. The best coworkers are the ones that can either prioritize and take care of the simple stuff so quickly that it's not a problem, or can switch back into "get things done" mode when it's needed.