6 ms·

I Resent My Cofounder

20 points by anotherfork 14y ago

I've written and deleted this post more than once, and I've worked very hard to not be judgmental and make invalid assumptions, but today I just couldn't stop writing, and I think it's finally time to sit on the therapy couch that is HN. I've been working with my co-founder for a number of years. We're great friends, and we have a lot in common. We both have passion for what we do and for our road ahead. I don't think I'd be where I am today without her, but at the same time, I'm starting to see we're not the same people we used to be. I put in around 60-70 hours/week on our startup. She puts in maybe 60-70% of that. I obsess over it 24/7. She seems content to let me do that. When we have new ideas, they are always mine. There are many times I've thought about holding them back in order to build them on my own. That alone tells me I need to do something about it. I have to constantly pull, nag, and guilt my cf into putting in more time and effort, and it's wearing me down. I don't like being a bitch. At our current pace it will take years of this pace in order to achieve our goals. I don't have years to drag someone along, and my family is already tired of watching it happen. My gut says I need to increase my salary and reduce hers, cutting back equity at the same time. Maybe even find someone else to bring on that can contribute equal to the cuts I make. But I'm worried that it would damage our relationship to a point of no coming back. I feel like this startup is my best chance for making it, and I absolutely refuse to let it go in order to move on. So the question is, do I just deal with the resentment and be grateful for what I have, make some sort of monetary change, or fire them all together and rebuild the team? Surely this resentment will boil into something even more negative, and I want to act before it gets to that point.

anotherfork 14y ago
I want to comment and mention that yes, we have talked about this problem before, and when we do, it does get heated. Her position isn't going to change much, not without me constantly cracking a whip and building equal resentment on the other side.
- Lisa2000 14y ago
  Then check your shareholding agreement, talk to your lawyer, and move carefully.
- Cardeck1 14y ago
  If you need a 3rd party to give you feedback, analyze the situation and solve your problem I might know someone who can help you although he is rather helping high profile startups.Leave a mail on your profile if you want some help anyway.
Lisa2000 14y ago
My first reaction is to tell you to act on the shareholder agreement and change the equity. Buy her out if you can. You build a new team. You have already waited too long.Great friends do not make great partners. However, you may be better served by having a trusted advisor speak with both of you individually, then together, to mediate. There may be more going on here than you know, and if there is a chance to clear the air and start afresh, you should find that. Finding cofounders is hard. You must have a trusted advisor that can do this for you -- it's part of why we have advisors, no?
daemonl 14y ago
From my limited understanding of startups, that's quite normal. I'd suggest first trying to really 'get' that it's perfect just the way it is. No really, it's perfect. And it's perfect that you want to do something about it. Then you will be in a space to choose if you WANT it to work like it is, or find a new co-founder, or have it work a completely new way.
phyalow 14y ago
It sounds like your under resourced... Years for achieving your goals? Time to rethink your entire organisational route.
- anotherfork 14y ago
  We're not yet funded. I basically funded our business with my savings and a little client work. We're looking for a seed round on top of all this, with me doing most of the hunting.
  - chris_dcosta 14y ago
    Financially speaking this is your baby, but it sounds like you never set out what the ownership / responsibility split would be from the beginning. This is your biggest problem, and is what is causing you to resent the arrangement, not necessarily the person. I'm not sure if your startup is making money yet (you mention salary) but I'm guessing it's 50/50 all the way. Someone here has suggested talking to a lawyer, but that's a big step for friends especially as this is the start. Another suggested getting in a third party. This is a good start, and you should offer some small equity in the process. Firstly that allows you to renegotiate your share, secondly, it changes the power balance, and thirdly (and perhaps more strategically so keep this as the ace hand) you can plant the seed of walking. This last point is very important because it communicates that you are prepared to take a project that you appear to have built, elsewhere, and that they will end up having to do everything if they want to continue as competitor.
zaidf 14y ago
It is natural to have week to week ebb and flow in performance but the first step to fixing it is agreeing to observe it. One solution is getting an independent party, ideally someone you both trust, and get him to review both your performances and give you each feedback on a regular basis. We do this at our start-up by doing quick review calls participated by each of the 3 founders along with a fourth independent party who gives his honest feedback on our day to day performance. Sure, you put in 60-70 hours and you feel she puts in 60-70% of that, but a bigger question is, is that all needed? You are assuming that your thinking about your start-up 24/7 and constantly being concerned about it is automatically adding more value than her. I know because I've been in your shoes. The answer is not always that you are fully correct.
- anotherfork 14y ago
  You're right, I've thought about this a lot. I work a lot because I like it, but also because we're not in the black yet. If we were, I'd probably relax at least a bit, but I've already experienced a time when the clock ran out and the money dried up. I'm doing everything in my power to prevent it this time. I do like your idea about getting an independent party, but we're not in the same region so our mutual acquaintances are few. I need to think on that a bit. Edit: Curious, was there any resistance when this was implemented with your team? How did the conversation go?
  - niggler 14y ago
    "I work a lot because I like it, but also because we're not in the black yet. " Did you address this issue with her? Maybe she doesn't feel the same urgency for profitability. If profitability is a big concern for you, communicate that
    - anotherfork 14y ago
      Yes, many times. She says she gets it, and says all the right things, but nothing really changes. It's almost as if her income was being subsidized. That or she's happy being broke.
krmmalik 14y ago
I wrote a really long winded reply from my mobile app but the app crashed. So here's a TL;DR version 1. Never dwell on number of hrs or ideas as measure of commitment. 2. She probably resents you too. Fear of vulnerability causes an absence of trust which results in reduced commitment. 3. Call it quits and build a new team where you're happy with the work ethic of your team
- anotherfork 14y ago
  Thanks for taking the time to reply, twice even. Can't say I haven't thought about #3, but I'm concerned about our customers and what I'd leave behind. I really love our business.
  - krmmalik 14y ago
    Trust me. They'll live. 60/70 hrs a week plus heated debates is not healthy. You need to slow down.
jamesntoy 14y ago
I'm a solo founder and I love it. I don't have the issues you have, but I do often feel the pressure to take on a co-founder just to check that box. Way back, I founded a startup with a co-founder, and it didn't work out because our commitment levels were different. Company failed for that and other reasons. But my current startup that is launching this week (PlayPozz) has an outsourced technical team of about ten people. They work hard and are very experienced, and I haven't felt handicapped at all. I guess the drawback is that you have to pay them from day one so you need funding. I'm not against having a co-founder, but I personally wouldn't settle for anyone who wasn't a near-perfect match. I say go solo for a while.
- anotherfork 14y ago
  For some reason, I've always felt the need to have a founder when starting a new venture, but regardless of what happens here, I do think that's the way I'll proceed next time.
trevelyan 14y ago
Are you sure your resentment is really frustration at her and not frustration at the state of the business? Your lack of salary or funding? Or how difficult you are finding it to reach customers? It sounds like she is putting in the equivalent of a fulltime job. So while its easy to transfer your frustrations onto her ("these problems would be solved if you put in 70 hours like me"), you might want to be careful you aren't giving in to wishful thinking. Certainly, if you are putting in 70 hours and that isn't solving these issues asking her to do the same is not necessarily the right approach. You need to be able to think clearly about why you are feeling what you are feeling, and look outside yourself to figure out if the demands you are putting on yourself and other people are really reasonable.
jacquesm 14y ago
It is par for the course that not everybody puts in an exactly equal amount of time. Have you agreed upfront that you both were going to work exactly the same hours? Have you agreed on a specific number of hours? 70% of 60 to 70 hours is still pretty good, it's not like she's doing nothing. I've been in your situation and it took me a while to realize that not everybody is like me. It could very well be that you spend a lot of time but achieve little and that they spend relatively little time but achieve lots. Step back for a bit and try to objectively judge not the hours you put in but the amount of output you generate and whether or not this is more or less than what you agreed upon at the outset. What you definitely need to do is to establish what exactly it is that you're expecting of each other.
- anotherfork 14y ago
  Thanks for the comment. It's good to know that others have been in my place. I'm pondering your thoughts before replying fully, but I did want to say that I had the same thoughts on output, so I've been measuring it for the past several months. Subjective I'm sure, but I'm shipping 5-10x more code, judging by our repo, and on top of that I'm managing the bizdev side 100%. When I say it like that, it actually sound like our business is one-sided, but it isn't. Maybe I should find some way to measure value qualitatively.
orangethirty 14y ago
What is the state of the business? Profitable, barely profitable, zombie or nothing?
- anotherfork 14y ago
  The product is still catching up to consulting revenue, but in the red by about 50% without consulting after salaries. Have a runway of about 4-5 months. The reason for the salaries is that we both quit our jobs to do this full-time and have families to support.
tatvamasi 14y ago
I would really stress the importance of having an open one-on-one conversation with her and resolve these issues. Seems like you already tried that and it turned into a heated discussion, here is some advice on how to approach it. 1. Have the conversation in a public place where professionals meet. For example, coffee shops. If you in the bay area, it would be best to have it in coffee shops known for startup discussions, such as Coupa Coffee in Palo Alto. Just choosing the right place for the conversation will make sure that the discussion does not go out of hand. 2. Come to the discussion with an open frame of mind. There may be some issues that she is feeling - you should be willing to listen. 3. Alert her in advance about the general topic you want to talk about. So that she is not surprised and is mentally prepared. 4. During the discussion, make sure to lay out specific behaviors/situations/examples that you find objectionable, and listen to what she has to say. Again, be open - perhaps there is another piece of the puzzle here that you have thought about fully, and she explains it to you. Example: "I put in 60-70 hours per week" is a very general statement. A specific statement would be "Last week, we launched feature F. I did X, Y, Z tasks over night to make the launch successful. However, you contribution over that week was only implementing a simple bug fix B. I would like to listen to you to know how can I help you contribute more to the project." 5. You may have some counterpoints to the arguments she makes. Be specific and encourage her to be specific. Hopefully after some time you'll sort it out amicably and you both have a good understanding of how each other works. 6. Contrary to what others have said, I would not bring a third-party to the discussion. You need to own resolving this problem. Getting third-party involved too quickly can be detrimental - they don't know the situation as much as both of you do. Most problems like these can be solved by honest and open communication. Good luck!
thsiao 14y ago
Have you asked her whether she is truly happy either? Maybe she just needs an out too but because of the time she has vested, can't bring herself to do it either...but instead her passion and engagement has waned?
nicholas73 14y ago
Remember that the marginal utility of dollars and success decreases. That means your first priority is to make the start up work, as the downside is failure and possibly having to take a job. With this in mind, think about whether any unfairness is actually worth jeopardizing the chance of success. Once you have enough money, and +/- a million means much less. The only question is whether your partner is essential to the company. Instead of directly fighting with salary and equity cuts, have a candid conversation about her goals and expectations. Understand her point of view. And maybe her balanced lifestyle is actually better in the long run.
oceanician 14y ago
60% of 60 hours would still be pretty much full time. You have a salary???? You have money??? Both unknowns to me. Maybe cut both your salaries and employ some more people, that can help put more of your ideas into action. You need to work less hours yourself. Delegate more. Spend some time on a hobby / interest / go to the cinema / anything.
intellegacy 14y ago
Just because you work more hours doesn't mean you are contributing more value to the company. That said, if you really do contribute 70% of the value into the company in it's early stages I might discuss with the cofounder a 70/30 split in equity.

20 points by anotherfork 14y ago

anotherfork 14y ago

I want to comment and mention that yes, we have talked about this problem before, and when we do, it does get heated. Her position isn't going to change much, not without me constantly cracking a whip and building equal resentment on the other side.

Lisa2000 14y ago
Then check your shareholding agreement, talk to your lawyer, and move carefully.
Cardeck1 14y ago
If you need a 3rd party to give you feedback, analyze the situation and solve your problem I might know someone who can help you although he is rather helping high profile startups.Leave a mail on your profile if you want some help anyway.

Lisa2000 14y ago

My first reaction is to tell you to act on the shareholder agreement and change the equity. Buy her out if you can. You build a new team. You have already waited too long.Great friends do not make great partners. However, you may be better served by having a trusted advisor speak with both of you individually, then together, to mediate. There may be more going on here than you know, and if there is a chance to clear the air and start afresh, you should find that. Finding cofounders is hard. You must have a trusted advisor that can do this for you -- it's part of why we have advisors, no?

daemonl 14y ago

From my limited understanding of startups, that's quite normal. I'd suggest first trying to really 'get' that it's perfect just the way it is. No really, it's perfect. And it's perfect that you want to do something about it. Then you will be in a space to choose if you WANT it to work like it is, or find a new co-founder, or have it work a completely new way.

phyalow 14y ago

It sounds like your under resourced... Years for achieving your goals? Time to rethink your entire organisational route.

anotherfork 14y ago
We're not yet funded. I basically funded our business with my savings and a little client work. We're looking for a seed round on top of all this, with me doing most of the hunting.
- chris_dcosta 14y ago
  Financially speaking this is your baby, but it sounds like you never set out what the ownership / responsibility split would be from the beginning. This is your biggest problem, and is what is causing you to resent the arrangement, not necessarily the person. I'm not sure if your startup is making money yet (you mention salary) but I'm guessing it's 50/50 all the way. Someone here has suggested talking to a lawyer, but that's a big step for friends especially as this is the start. Another suggested getting in a third party. This is a good start, and you should offer some small equity in the process. Firstly that allows you to renegotiate your share, secondly, it changes the power balance, and thirdly (and perhaps more strategically so keep this as the ace hand) you can plant the seed of walking. This last point is very important because it communicates that you are prepared to take a project that you appear to have built, elsewhere, and that they will end up having to do everything if they want to continue as competitor.

zaidf 14y ago

It is natural to have week to week ebb and flow in performance but the first step to fixing it is agreeing to observe it. One solution is getting an independent party, ideally someone you both trust, and get him to review both your performances and give you each feedback on a regular basis. We do this at our start-up by doing quick review calls participated by each of the 3 founders along with a fourth independent party who gives his honest feedback on our day to day performance. Sure, you put in 60-70 hours and you feel she puts in 60-70% of that, but a bigger question is, is that all needed? You are assuming that your thinking about your start-up 24/7 and constantly being concerned about it is automatically adding more value than her. I know because I've been in your shoes. The answer is not always that you are fully correct.

anotherfork 14y ago
You're right, I've thought about this a lot. I work a lot because I like it, but also because we're not in the black yet. If we were, I'd probably relax at least a bit, but I've already experienced a time when the clock ran out and the money dried up. I'm doing everything in my power to prevent it this time. I do like your idea about getting an independent party, but we're not in the same region so our mutual acquaintances are few. I need to think on that a bit. Edit: Curious, was there any resistance when this was implemented with your team? How did the conversation go?
- niggler 14y ago
  "I work a lot because I like it, but also because we're not in the black yet. " Did you address this issue with her? Maybe she doesn't feel the same urgency for profitability. If profitability is a big concern for you, communicate that
  - anotherfork 14y ago
    Yes, many times. She says she gets it, and says all the right things, but nothing really changes. It's almost as if her income was being subsidized. That or she's happy being broke.

krmmalik 14y ago

I wrote a really long winded reply from my mobile app but the app crashed. So here's a TL;DR version 1. Never dwell on number of hrs or ideas as measure of commitment. 2. She probably resents you too. Fear of vulnerability causes an absence of trust which results in reduced commitment. 3. Call it quits and build a new team where you're happy with the work ethic of your team

anotherfork 14y ago
Thanks for taking the time to reply, twice even. Can't say I haven't thought about #3, but I'm concerned about our customers and what I'd leave behind. I really love our business.
- krmmalik 14y ago
  Trust me. They'll live. 60/70 hrs a week plus heated debates is not healthy. You need to slow down.

jamesntoy 14y ago

I'm a solo founder and I love it. I don't have the issues you have, but I do often feel the pressure to take on a co-founder just to check that box. Way back, I founded a startup with a co-founder, and it didn't work out because our commitment levels were different. Company failed for that and other reasons. But my current startup that is launching this week (PlayPozz) has an outsourced technical team of about ten people. They work hard and are very experienced, and I haven't felt handicapped at all. I guess the drawback is that you have to pay them from day one so you need funding. I'm not against having a co-founder, but I personally wouldn't settle for anyone who wasn't a near-perfect match. I say go solo for a while.

anotherfork 14y ago
For some reason, I've always felt the need to have a founder when starting a new venture, but regardless of what happens here, I do think that's the way I'll proceed next time.

trevelyan 14y ago

Are you sure your resentment is really frustration at her and not frustration at the state of the business? Your lack of salary or funding? Or how difficult you are finding it to reach customers? It sounds like she is putting in the equivalent of a fulltime job. So while its easy to transfer your frustrations onto her ("these problems would be solved if you put in 70 hours like me"), you might want to be careful you aren't giving in to wishful thinking. Certainly, if you are putting in 70 hours and that isn't solving these issues asking her to do the same is not necessarily the right approach. You need to be able to think clearly about why you are feeling what you are feeling, and look outside yourself to figure out if the demands you are putting on yourself and other people are really reasonable.

jacquesm 14y ago

It is par for the course that not everybody puts in an exactly equal amount of time. Have you agreed upfront that you both were going to work exactly the same hours? Have you agreed on a specific number of hours? 70% of 60 to 70 hours is still pretty good, it's not like she's doing nothing. I've been in your situation and it took me a while to realize that not everybody is like me. It could very well be that you spend a lot of time but achieve little and that they spend relatively little time but achieve lots. Step back for a bit and try to objectively judge not the hours you put in but the amount of output you generate and whether or not this is more or less than what you agreed upon at the outset. What you definitely need to do is to establish what exactly it is that you're expecting of each other.

anotherfork 14y ago
Thanks for the comment. It's good to know that others have been in my place. I'm pondering your thoughts before replying fully, but I did want to say that I had the same thoughts on output, so I've been measuring it for the past several months. Subjective I'm sure, but I'm shipping 5-10x more code, judging by our repo, and on top of that I'm managing the bizdev side 100%. When I say it like that, it actually sound like our business is one-sided, but it isn't. Maybe I should find some way to measure value qualitatively.

orangethirty 14y ago

What is the state of the business? Profitable, barely profitable, zombie or nothing?

anotherfork 14y ago
The product is still catching up to consulting revenue, but in the red by about 50% without consulting after salaries. Have a runway of about 4-5 months. The reason for the salaries is that we both quit our jobs to do this full-time and have families to support.

tatvamasi 14y ago

I would really stress the importance of having an open one-on-one conversation with her and resolve these issues. Seems like you already tried that and it turned into a heated discussion, here is some advice on how to approach it. 1. Have the conversation in a public place where professionals meet. For example, coffee shops. If you in the bay area, it would be best to have it in coffee shops known for startup discussions, such as Coupa Coffee in Palo Alto. Just choosing the right place for the conversation will make sure that the discussion does not go out of hand. 2. Come to the discussion with an open frame of mind. There may be some issues that she is feeling - you should be willing to listen. 3. Alert her in advance about the general topic you want to talk about. So that she is not surprised and is mentally prepared. 4. During the discussion, make sure to lay out specific behaviors/situations/examples that you find objectionable, and listen to what she has to say. Again, be open - perhaps there is another piece of the puzzle here that you have thought about fully, and she explains it to you. Example: "I put in 60-70 hours per week" is a very general statement. A specific statement would be "Last week, we launched feature F. I did X, Y, Z tasks over night to make the launch successful. However, you contribution over that week was only implementing a simple bug fix B. I would like to listen to you to know how can I help you contribute more to the project." 5. You may have some counterpoints to the arguments she makes. Be specific and encourage her to be specific. Hopefully after some time you'll sort it out amicably and you both have a good understanding of how each other works. 6. Contrary to what others have said, I would not bring a third-party to the discussion. You need to own resolving this problem. Getting third-party involved too quickly can be detrimental - they don't know the situation as much as both of you do. Most problems like these can be solved by honest and open communication. Good luck!

thsiao 14y ago

Have you asked her whether she is truly happy either? Maybe she just needs an out too but because of the time she has vested, can't bring herself to do it either...but instead her passion and engagement has waned?

nicholas73 14y ago

Remember that the marginal utility of dollars and success decreases. That means your first priority is to make the start up work, as the downside is failure and possibly having to take a job. With this in mind, think about whether any unfairness is actually worth jeopardizing the chance of success. Once you have enough money, and +/- a million means much less. The only question is whether your partner is essential to the company. Instead of directly fighting with salary and equity cuts, have a candid conversation about her goals and expectations. Understand her point of view. And maybe her balanced lifestyle is actually better in the long run.

oceanician 14y ago

60% of 60 hours would still be pretty much full time. You have a salary???? You have money??? Both unknowns to me. Maybe cut both your salaries and employ some more people, that can help put more of your ideas into action. You need to work less hours yourself. Delegate more. Spend some time on a hobby / interest / go to the cinema / anything.

intellegacy 14y ago

Just because you work more hours doesn't mean you are contributing more value to the company. That said, if you really do contribute 70% of the value into the company in it's early stages I might discuss with the cofounder a 70/30 split in equity.