8 ms·

This is the first good article I've found that shows parallels between corruption or monopolistic/oligopolistic behavior in developing nations and the current U

This is the first good article I've found that shows parallels between corruption or monopolistic/oligopolistic behavior in developing nations and the current U.S. system, written by an old IMF practitioner: -banks too big in size -banks influence policy (treasury officials are often former bankers) -advice on what happens when developing nations wreck their financial system and what is usually necessary to heal -argument for why nationalization of banks makes sense Who could provide better advice than an organization that routinely deals with these kinds of failures? It turns out, this kind of stuff happens all the time... just not here in the U.S.

anamax 18y ago
> Who could provide better advice than an organization that routinely deals with these kinds of failures? How about an organization that SUCCESSFULLY deals with these kinds of failures? > -banks too big in size When/where did the IMF dealt with any banks approaching the size of Wachovia, let alone Citigroup? > -banks influence policy (treasury officials are often former bankers) Since the IMF is filled with bankers.... I note that the current Treasury Secretary was IMF. I've heard that his Indonesian work caused horrific damage.
- christofd 18y ago
  Granted, I don't know enough about the track record of the IMF. Them sort of being the 'Emergency Room' staff for failed nations does give them insights into typical reasons for malfunction. I don't really have a grip (and most people don't) on how these huge sums here in the U.S., e.g. 4-5 trillion dollars estimated in bad assets on the books, add up. Reading Krugman/ de Long/ Cowen/ Kedrovsky etc. still hasn't given me enough perspective. So I'd like to see some input from people that know all the angles on how crooks get away with money! Their experience from developing nations is helpful.
  - anamax 18y ago
    > Them sort of being the 'Emergency Room' staff for failed nations does give them insights into typical reasons for malfunction. Which doesn't help, and may hurt, because we're not failing for "typical reasons". > So I'd like to see some input from people that know all the angles on how crooks get away with money! Their experience from developing nations is helpful. If that's your reason for thinking that the IMF will help, it's almost certainly wrong. Think of it this way. Does skill at catching shoplifters help if you're trying to stop murderers? Note that the bulk of the IMF's activities are "development", which often ends up bankrupting the country.... That's not to say that such countries wouldn't have failed anyway or that contries don't fail without IMF help, just that IMF involvement doesn't necessarily end up with ponies and kittens. Don't take my criticism of the IMF as support for the current batch of US folks - it isn't. (Pretty much every one of Fed Chairman Bernake's predictions has been horrifically wrong.) I'm just pointing out that it's quite possible for the IMF to be even worse. Remember, that it's always possible to make things worse. (Better and worse are both changes.)
    - christofd 18y ago
      Well, I was hoping for a fresh outside perspective. We here in the U.S. have been shafted for so long that we've got 'Stockholm Syndrome'. It's time for some wrath - nothing better than an institution that deals with 3rd world dictators to call out breaches of law. You could call it 'ethical awareness' that an outside perspective can contribute. Granted, given actual policy, the U.S. situation is unique and therefore the IMF's experience might not directly apply, e.g. I don't think that too many developing nations failed because of 'credit default swaps'. However, many bankers currently (and in the past) are in policy positions, and suddenly the lessons from corruption and aggregation of power in 3rd world countries apply.
      - anamax 18y ago
        > It's time for some wrath - nothing better than an institution that deals with 3rd world dictators to call out breaches of law. The IMF doesn't "deal with" 3rd world dictators or "call out breaches of law". > You could call it 'ethical awareness' that an outside perspective can contribute. And you could call it a pony for all the good it would do. "Outside" doesn't tell you anything about the value of a perspective. > However, many bankers currently (and in the past) are in policy positions, and suddenly the lessons from corruption and aggregation of power in 3rd world countries apply. If you're arguing that "IMF bankers will fix things", you're ignoring the fact that IMF bankers are what got us into this and we're currently using IMF bankers. (Guess where the current treasury secretary used to work.) If you're arguing that the IMF is used to dealing with corrupt bankers, you're simply wrong. And, if you're arguing that the US has problems because of corrupt bankers, you don't know anything useful about said problems. > Well, I was hoping for a fresh outside perspective. Hope is not a plan. Change is not necessary good. And an outside perspective isn't necessarily relevant. (Different can be good or bad.) And, it's not "fresh". > We here in the U.S. have been shafted for so long that we've got 'Stockholm Syndrome'. One of the symptoms is grasping at anything, without regard for whether it actually helps or is even relevant. So, to end on a positive note, it's likely that you've accurately explained why you're thrashing around uselessly.

anamax 18y ago

> Who could provide better advice than an organization that routinely deals with these kinds of failures? How about an organization that SUCCESSFULLY deals with these kinds of failures? > -banks too big in size When/where did the IMF dealt with any banks approaching the size of Wachovia, let alone Citigroup? > -banks influence policy (treasury officials are often former bankers) Since the IMF is filled with bankers.... I note that the current Treasury Secretary was IMF. I've heard that his Indonesian work caused horrific damage.

christofd 18y ago
Granted, I don't know enough about the track record of the IMF. Them sort of being the 'Emergency Room' staff for failed nations does give them insights into typical reasons for malfunction. I don't really have a grip (and most people don't) on how these huge sums here in the U.S., e.g. 4-5 trillion dollars estimated in bad assets on the books, add up. Reading Krugman/ de Long/ Cowen/ Kedrovsky etc. still hasn't given me enough perspective. So I'd like to see some input from people that know all the angles on how crooks get away with money! Their experience from developing nations is helpful.
- anamax 18y ago
  > Them sort of being the 'Emergency Room' staff for failed nations does give them insights into typical reasons for malfunction. Which doesn't help, and may hurt, because we're not failing for "typical reasons". > So I'd like to see some input from people that know all the angles on how crooks get away with money! Their experience from developing nations is helpful. If that's your reason for thinking that the IMF will help, it's almost certainly wrong. Think of it this way. Does skill at catching shoplifters help if you're trying to stop murderers? Note that the bulk of the IMF's activities are "development", which often ends up bankrupting the country.... That's not to say that such countries wouldn't have failed anyway or that contries don't fail without IMF help, just that IMF involvement doesn't necessarily end up with ponies and kittens. Don't take my criticism of the IMF as support for the current batch of US folks - it isn't. (Pretty much every one of Fed Chairman Bernake's predictions has been horrifically wrong.) I'm just pointing out that it's quite possible for the IMF to be even worse. Remember, that it's always possible to make things worse. (Better and worse are both changes.)
  - christofd 18y ago
    Well, I was hoping for a fresh outside perspective. We here in the U.S. have been shafted for so long that we've got 'Stockholm Syndrome'. It's time for some wrath - nothing better than an institution that deals with 3rd world dictators to call out breaches of law. You could call it 'ethical awareness' that an outside perspective can contribute. Granted, given actual policy, the U.S. situation is unique and therefore the IMF's experience might not directly apply, e.g. I don't think that too many developing nations failed because of 'credit default swaps'. However, many bankers currently (and in the past) are in policy positions, and suddenly the lessons from corruption and aggregation of power in 3rd world countries apply.
    - anamax 18y ago
      > It's time for some wrath - nothing better than an institution that deals with 3rd world dictators to call out breaches of law. The IMF doesn't "deal with" 3rd world dictators or "call out breaches of law". > You could call it 'ethical awareness' that an outside perspective can contribute. And you could call it a pony for all the good it would do. "Outside" doesn't tell you anything about the value of a perspective. > However, many bankers currently (and in the past) are in policy positions, and suddenly the lessons from corruption and aggregation of power in 3rd world countries apply. If you're arguing that "IMF bankers will fix things", you're ignoring the fact that IMF bankers are what got us into this and we're currently using IMF bankers. (Guess where the current treasury secretary used to work.) If you're arguing that the IMF is used to dealing with corrupt bankers, you're simply wrong. And, if you're arguing that the US has problems because of corrupt bankers, you don't know anything useful about said problems. > Well, I was hoping for a fresh outside perspective. Hope is not a plan. Change is not necessary good. And an outside perspective isn't necessarily relevant. (Different can be good or bad.) And, it's not "fresh". > We here in the U.S. have been shafted for so long that we've got 'Stockholm Syndrome'. One of the symptoms is grasping at anything, without regard for whether it actually helps or is even relevant. So, to end on a positive note, it's likely that you've accurately explained why you're thrashing around uselessly.