20 ms·

LayerVault Sends DMCA Takedown Letter re Flat-UI

• SmeelBe 14y ago
  I not see any resemblance between layervault project and Flat UI, colors are different, icons too... explain please guys what is the problem?
  • free652 14y ago
    I checked the colors and they're different. They may look the same, also square/flat interface is part of Windows 8.
    • jeremyjh 14y ago
      I'm pretty sure colors cannot be protected by copyright.
      • shabble 14y ago
        Whilst (afaik) unrelated to the DCMA claim at hand, it is possible to trademark a specific colour, with plenty of examples at [1], and there have been controversial suits over 'infringement' in the past. My recollection is that colour trademarks are much more restrictive in their coverage than other forms, although I may be wrong there. Edit: Emphasise the trademark-ability, not copyright-ability, of particular colours/palettes. [1] http://www.businessinsider.com/colors-that-are-trademarked-2012-9?op=1 http://www.businessinsider.com/colors-that-are-trademarked-2...
        • FootballMuse 14y ago
          Trademark infringement and copyright infringement are different things. The DMCA only deals with copyright. Plus, it is actually fairly difficult to trademark a color.
          • shabble 14y ago
            > Trademark infringement and copyright infringement are different things. Yes, I'm aware of that, and have edited original comment emphasise it. I had vaguely thought there was some provision in the DMCA for remedies for other types of IP infringement as well as copyright, but haven't really looked into it that much. Then again, given how much easier it is to (potentially) infringe some trademarks, the severity of the remedy (immediate takedown, with perhaps later return) does seem like overkill. I wasn't arguing that it was easy, merely possible. The examples all do seem to be large companies with significant legal budgets and generally strong or exclusive brands though, which does indicate it being quite rare.
  • keesj 14y ago
    Maybe if you compare them side by side, I don't know. When I first saw UI Kit however I immediately thought LayerVault had 'open sourced' their design as it looked so similar. I later learned the kit was created by a 3rd party.
• mnicole 14y ago
  Am I understanding this right; that LayerVault is trying to claim that they are the sole owners of the flat UI trend? I'm sorry Allan, I've been a fan of yours since before LayerVault was even launched, but this is really low. And if I'm remembering correctly, this isn't the first time you guys have harassed someone about using "your" aesthetic.
  • iconfinder 14y ago
    Layervault are going after Microsoft now with their "Metro style"... those copycats!
  • JCB_K 14y ago
    What he said is that he is "the exclusive rights holder for the artwork contained within Flat UI". Presumably he's referring to Flat UI the UI Kit, not Flat UI the general trend.
    • sergiotapia 14y ago
      _BUT_ as mentioned in the Github thread, FlatUI framework does NOT use any artwork from LayerVault. All of their assets were created in-house by DesginModo's designers..
      • drharris 14y ago
        Well, that remains to be seen. Looking at both websites, it's difficult to tell what they are talking about. Flat-UI doesn't seem to have any assets that mirror anything on LayerVault's. They need to be more specific.
        • tobyjsullivan 14y ago
          > Flat-UI doesn't seem to have any assets that mirror anything on LayerVault's. I would say that is the issue in a nutshell. LayerVault is claiming they are the exclusive rights-holders, yet absolutely nothing in Flat-UI is the same as anything on LayerVault's public site. The only possible angle remaining would be if LayerVault had a bunch of these elements behind their paywall... something tells me that's not the case. Edit: Alright, I admit the colour Turquoise is used on both pages. Still, I'm fairly confident turquoise boxes (of differing shapes!) are not copyrightable.
• linceme 14y ago
  LayerVault are greedy :)
• Duhck 14y ago
  Maybe Hacker News should send you a take down notice for copying HN with "Designer News" aka DN? https://news.layervault.com/stories https://news.layervault.com/stories
  • adamkochanowicz 14y ago
    Ha, this is totally a bubbly rip off of HN
    • SmeelBe 14y ago
      Absolutely!
  • Orva 14y ago
    Takedown notice was also (briefly) in that site too http://imgur.com/a/u0ez8 http://imgur.com/a/u0ez8
• bluetidepro 14y ago
  Whether this is true or false, I see this hurting LayerVault more than it's worth fighting. It will be interesting to see this play out.
  • arkitaip 14y ago
    Agreed. Imagine if LayerVault had taken a more transparent and community oriented approach and said: hey guys, the flat gui project is really cool and we're delighted that it got inspired by our stuff, namely x, y, z (comparison screenshots).
  • AJ007 14y ago
    It makes them look incompetent when it comes to internet law. Any one want to test their "unlimited storage" claim?
• SmeelBe 14y ago
  true tweet! - https://twitter.com/iconfinder/status/309337478207262720 https://twitter.com/iconfinder/status/309337478207262720
  • rustc 14y ago
    Looks like it was deleted. What was it?
    • SmeelBe 14y ago
      here is screenshot - http://i.imm.io/Ynhs.png http://i.imm.io/Ynhs.png
      • BaconJuice 14y ago
        imgur please. Only one I can view at work =/
    • sp332 14y ago
      It's basically this https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5331891 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5331891 which is unconstructive.
    • iconfinder 14y ago
      Hi. We deleted it, but posted a much better comment here: http://bruun.co/2013/03/06/who-owns-flat http://bruun.co/2013/03/06/who-owns-flat The blog is our CTO's.
• timrpeterson 14y ago
  IP doesn't exist anymore, get over it.
• throwaway420 14y ago
  Without some extraordinary explanation by Layer Vault detailing an actual theft of files or copying of their actual work, it sounds like Layer Vault just did a major scumbag move that harms designers everywhere. And that's a shame because I like Layer Vault a lot.
• ajross 14y ago
  Can someone please summarize for those of us not plugged in to the web UI framework (or whatever this is) community? I'm seeing entities like "LayerVault" and "Flat UI" and products (?) named "trend" that I've never heard of. Is this an abuse of process I should actually care about or is it just a "who did what?" spit between estranged developers?
  • bencevans 14y ago
    Flat UI (http://designmodo.github.com/Flat-UI/ http://designmodo.github.com/Flat-UI/) in an open source project along the same lines as Twitter Bootstrap. or another bootstrappable interface framework. LayerVault (https://layervault.com/ https://layervault.com/) are a company that provide a version control system for design work.
    • ajross 14y ago
      Thanks. This isn't directed at you personally, more at the community mindpool: And did Flat UI derive artwork from LayerVault? Is there a connection between the developers? Did they work with the same artist? Certainly some of the icons on the two sites look similar, though I don't see any obvious duplication. A critically important step in any hot blooded DMCA freakout is verifying whether or not infringement took place. The letter (frustratingly) doesn't point to any specifics but it does at least allege infringement. I can't find a clear denial in the linked thread. So again: should I be upset about this?
      • Sujan 14y ago
        I don't have the answers to these questions, but I'm happy I'm not the only one that wants these answered before I jump to conclusions and bash LayerFaul OR the Flat UI people.
      • nchlswu 14y ago
        To add some context, LayerVault posted a blog post outlining "The Flat Design Era"[1]. While the term has been used before in various context, to me, the post seemed to ignite a lot of discussion in the tech/design community about flat design (and by relation, skeumorphs, etc.,) LayerVault is a vocal proponent of the "Flat UI" approach and uses it almost as a signature look and feel for their product. In the follow up discussions, the blog post author has said that no post or discussion fully understands what he meant [2]. I can't read the takedown letter or discussion where I am (for some reason github is blocked). But based on what I've seen, the kit is similar to LayerVault's approach to employing Flat UI. That combined with the blogpost, I wouldn't be surprised if LayerVault felt that their look and feel was infringed upon. Obviously, this doesn't mean that they actually were infringed upon in the eye of the law, even if the kit was derived from LayerVault. As a designer, I can sympathize with LayerVault's issue with the kit (I'm making assumptions), but with such a design, I really wonder how valid their complaint is within the law. [1]http://layervault.tumblr.com/post/32267022219/flat-interface-design http://layervault.tumblr.com/post/32267022219/flat-interface... [2]Designer News thread that I have no link to at the moment.
• saiko-chriskun 14y ago
  anyone manage to clone the repo?
  • bwsewell 14y ago
    I found a link to it... please only use for investigative purposes: http://ge.tt/19rXMGa/v/0?c http://ge.tt/19rXMGa/v/0?c
    • Metapony 14y ago
      Thank you. I had the github page open for 2 days, but hadn't cloned the repo, then found out it was DMCA'd! I've been hunting around looking for someone who had mirrored it.
  • fuddle 14y ago
    http://designmodo.com/flat-free/ http://designmodo.com/flat-free/
• Pyramids 14y ago
  Filing a counter notification is extremely straightforward, and moves this to a court dispute, which will almost undoubtedly never happen. You can use Chilling Effects Counter-Notification generator to automate the process: http://www.chillingeffects.org/dmca/counter512.pdf http://www.chillingeffects.org/dmca/counter512.pdf For those who are unfamiliar with DMCA notices, in short: 1. Content Provider Receives DMCA 2. Content Provider must act 'expeditiously' to remove content which is claimed to be infringing 3. Individual has an opportunity to submit a counter notification to their content provider, in which case the content can be reinstated after 10 business days regardless of the other parties claims. (Unless an injunction is obtained.) 4. Any further action is only by legal means (court injunction) Disclaimer: IANAL (yet)
  • rustc 14y ago
    Curious: What happens if the individual in question is NOT in the US? Can this still be done?
    • BaconJuice 14y ago
      By the looks of it, I don't think they are. But I think Github will take it down since its hosted in the US?
    • Pyramids 14y ago
      EDIT: After rereading your question, I'm assuming you're referring to a situation similar to my third example scenario, that might best address it. Generally: - If the content provider is outside of the United States, DMCA is not valid whatsoever. However, some organizations, especially in English speaking countries, will honor it simply as a notice of infringement. - If the individual sending the complaint is outside the United States, but the content provider is within the US, usually the content provider will cooperate anyway to protect themselves from legal obligation under Safe Harbor provisions. - If the end user receiving the complaint is outside the United States and the content provider is within the US then the content provider should still honor the counter notice and would be covered by Safe Harbor provisions. I'm not sure on the specifics of this, however you must at minimum consent to the jurisdiction of US Federal Law for any further actions. For the most part, the content provider / hosting company will do what is in their best interest to legally safeguard themselves, with little regard for end user rights. Generally speaking, the larger the company the moreso this applies. Github seems like a reasonable organization, and if you submit a counter notification in valid format they should act accordingly. Also, I see the Chilling Effects URL is getting hammered, here's a static version which you can modify: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Terrorism/form-letter.html http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Terrorism/form-letter.html While unrelated to this issue specifically, something which is interesting to note is that in a several year old paper from Vanderbilt University, they specifically mention a provision dealing with enforcing the DMCA on foreign websites. While this provision has never been used to my knowledge it does exist and is quite scary considering the implications: While direct action against a foreign site is not possible in U.S. courts, the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (“DMCA”) allows courts to order the blocking of infringing sites. Section 512(j)(1)(B)(ii) (the “Foreign Site Provision”) permits an order to restrain an Internet service provider (“ISP”) from providing access to a “specific, identified, online location outside the United States.” Therefore this provision, with some limitations, may be used to block U.S. access to infringing foreign sites.
• LukeFrost 14y ago
  Designmodo's reaction - http://designmodo.com/flat-free/#comment-38290 http://designmodo.com/flat-free/#comment-38290 Designmodo are the best UI's makers! Don't hit these guys!
• SmeelBe 14y ago
  True! - https://twitter.com/awmichel/status/309341548980625409 https://twitter.com/awmichel/status/309341548980625409
• justjimmy 14y ago
  This is why we can't have nice things. Even Apple didn't even go after others when rounded corners, glassy/glossy, gradient buttons was the trend. (Yes, Apple didn't invent those, just as LV didn't invent flat UI or the art work - which btw, is just a flat color. Glad Pantone isn't going around with LV's mentality.) Just speechless.
  • pixl97 14y ago
    Apple does go after other designs that are similar to theirs, but (big BUT), they don't use DMCA unless there was an actual copy of their artwork/software. They file an injunction with a judge to stop sales of the product and/or sue them in civil court.
• ck2 14y ago
  I thought "look and feel" lawsuits over UI were settled long ago? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lotus_Software#.22Look_and_feel.22_lawsuits http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lotus_Software#.22Look_and_feel...
  • Sujan 14y ago
    From the DMCA takedown letter: > I am the exclusive rights holder for the artwork contained within Flat UI That's quite a difference to "look and feel". Right now, there is just not enough information to know what this is all about.
    • ck2 14y ago
      Not sure what "artwork" was copied if any. If it was icons, I think a court said recently icons cannot be copyrighted? Ah maybe it was thumbnails cannot be copyrighted.
• Slashiki 14y ago
  Twitter reaction to this announcement - https://twitter.com/search/realtime?q=LayerVault&src=typd https://twitter.com/search/realtime?q=LayerVault&src=typ...
• creullin 14y ago
  Coders Twitter account https://twitter.com/iurevych https://twitter.com/iurevych
• jbverschoor 14y ago
  Damn.. I think I'll send myself a DMCA notice, post it on HN and get lots of traffic and noise around my brand
  • saiko-chriskun 14y ago
    this is not good noise :/
    • orangethirty 14y ago
      Of course it is. A DMCA take down has people look at their content and download it. Any reasonably good business person would be able to twist this into sales.
    • mrgoldenbrown 14y ago
      I think he is looking at it as good from the the side getting the notice, not giving it.
• deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
• 3amOpsGuy 14y ago
  The designmodo logo is quite debian-esque. Maybe too close to debian's i'd think. EDIT: https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/7d9027189b18855f5f2ddeb7db62311c.jpg https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/7d9027189b18855f5f2ddeb7d...
  • DanBC 14y ago
    Eh, they're just logos. They're pretty different. Ignoring the colour (red on white VS white on blue) and the distressing of the Debian logo vs the cleanness of the designmodo logo there's the opening of the spiral - Debian curve starts at 6 o clock, while designmodo starts at 4:30 or 5 o clock. And the inside of the Debian loop goes further.
    • pyre 14y ago
      But they're similar. They were obviously copied with willful and malicious intent! DMCA sent! [ Note that the DN logo and the FlatUI newspaper icon that have been held up as examples by LV are about as similar as these two icons. ]
      • 3amOpsGuy 14y ago
        doesnt bother shaking head in dismay, just wanders off
    • 3amOpsGuy 14y ago
      >> Eh, they're just logos shakes head in dismay and wanders off
  • dictum 14y ago
    Both look like an inverted F-clef. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bass_clef#F-clefs http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bass_clef#F-clefs
• largesse 14y ago
  What are the penalties for a false DMCA claim?
  • saiko-chriskun 14y ago
    There really should be more penalties for this.
    • largesse 14y ago
      Apparently, the notices say "under penalty of perjury", but at the very least you should be able to sue abusers civilly. I'm just not sure that is a great recourse for open source. DMCA needs reform on this. There needs to be scale of fines for parties that issue takedowns based upon false copyright claims.
      • dangrossman 14y ago
        The part that's "under penalty of perjury" is only the statement that you are authorized to act on behalf of a copyright holder, not that your claims are true.
  • Pyramids 14y ago
    The actual content holder, and the content provider are then eligible to counter-sue whomever filed the false takedown notice, applicable examples of this include: OPG v. Diebold (2004): https://www.eff.org/press/archives/2004/10/15 https://www.eff.org/press/archives/2004/10/15 Lenz v. Universal Music Corp. (2007): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenz_v._Universal_Music_Corp http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenz_v._Universal_Music_Corp (Overview) https://www.eff.org/files/filenode/lenz_v_universal/lenzorder082008.pdf https://www.eff.org/files/filenode/lenz_v_universal/lenzorde... (Court Orders)
• SmeelBe 14y ago
  let me guess, the next one you're going to report is microsoft, or google?
• jcomis 14y ago
  The only thing that is not completely generic imo is the color scheme FlatUI picked, which is similar to the scheme on LayerVault. But it's not exactly the same (I checked, everything is quite close though). Don't think something like that warrants an action like this at all.
• michelslim 14y ago
  Hey! http://layervault.tumblr.com/post/32267022219/flat-interface-design http://layervault.tumblr.com/post/32267022219/flat-interface... "We certainly didn’t invent the flat style" whaaat? why you attack designmodo in this case????
• michelslim 14y ago
  Github discussion - https://github.com/github/dmca/commit/735e17614cca63102b8414ed2846c3effbfe9535#commitcomment-2750982 https://github.com/github/dmca/commit/735e17614cca63102b8414...
• lucaspiller 14y ago
  Anyone got a clone of flat-ui?
• aviraldg 14y ago
  Why don't we, as a community, collectively agree to boycott copyright trolls? (and teach them a lesson in the process) esp. when the target audience consists of developers/designers EDIT: I tried to cross-post this on Designer News, but it turns out they're invite-only. Can someone do me the honour?
  • saiko-chriskun 14y ago
    Yes, we need to create a new DN. LayerVault really has proven they are not the right entity to be running it.
    • aviraldg 14y ago
      I see no reason why hackers and designers can't mix :)
      • saiko-chriskun 14y ago
        this works too :)
      • meerita 14y ago
        ^this. They have proven to be an closed elitist circle and they go against the web openness nature of the web and development.
  • elemeno 14y ago
    We might want to see if they're actually trolls first. While I know it's pretty de rigueur on HN to assume that anyone who issues a DMCA takedown is evil/a troll/an idiot who doesn't understand the internet, it doesn't mean that some of them aren't being filed because their copyright is actually being violated. Until there's more evidence either from LayerVault that DesignModo has used their assets, or from DesignModo that they haven't - something beyond DesignModo just shouting "they're lying!" in any case, perhaps it's best to withhold judgement for the time being.
    • 14y ago
• andyl 14y ago
  I learned one thing: I will never use LayerVault's service, and discourage anyone I know from using it.
  • dzlobin 14y ago
    How about you look into the issue rather than making bold comments with no basis. https://twitter.com/Allan/status/309346292902014976 https://twitter.com/Allan/status/309346292902014976 https://twitter.com/Allan/status/309350351054716929 https://twitter.com/Allan/status/309350351054716929
    • pifflesnort 14y ago
      There's no proof. All they've said so far seems to demonstrate a lack of understanding about what copyright actually is, as well as a general case of business immaturity.
      • deleted 14y ago
        [deleted]
    • lowboy 14y ago
      Similarities in design doesn't warrant a DMCA takedown notice, period.
    • meh02 14y ago
      I don't think you understand. All design builds on other design. Maybe this guy was "inspired" by LayerVault, maybe not. The problem is that a DMCA takedown is like using a sledgehammer when you could have just asked nicely first. This is just bad PR for no reason.
    • nonamegiven 14y ago
      What he says sounds kind of reasonable. But then when I see the side by sides that have been posted here, even the things that have been taken down, I get a big "fuck off" stuck in my throat. Similar is not copy. Unless you want the same environment for copyright that we have right now with software patents.
• jgj 14y ago
  The founder of LayerVault is claiming it was specific illustrations which were stolen https://twitter.com/Allan/status/309346292902014976 https://twitter.com/Allan/status/309346292902014976 https://twitter.com/Allan/status/309350351054716929 https://twitter.com/Allan/status/309350351054716929
  • dzlobin 14y ago
    This needs to be the top comment here, rather than people insinuating that LV called for a DMCA takedown because 'they look alike'
    • tptacek 14y ago
      Bet on HN embarrassing itself every time on stories like this.
      • nicholassmith 14y ago
        HN posters being reactionary to hot topics like DMCA when all the facts aren't out? Say it ain't so.
        • andybak 14y ago
          Except I've read most of the comments and on the whole they seem a) correct (to my understanding of the DMCA) and b) reasonable and well thought out.
          • nicholassmith 14y ago
            The initial ones were very reactionary about boycotting Layer Vault and so on. The DMCA is super wishy washy, and I can't say whether this is a valid use or not because IANAL.
      • deleted 14y ago
        [deleted]
      • deleted 14y ago
• somontop 14y ago
  LayerVault discussion - https://news.layervault.com/stories/1992-layervault-whats-up-with-the-dmca https://news.layervault.com/stories/1992-layervault-whats-up... http://i.imm.io/YnAs.png http://i.imm.io/YnAs.png haha :)
  • deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
• largesse 14y ago
  Could a site have a policy where if you issue a DMCA takedown for something on the site they drop your content and ban you? It's sort of like the logic of GPL.
  • escaped_hn 14y ago
    I like that idea. The License to the OPUS codec uses it. If you sue another user of the opus codec, you must stop using opus. :)
• melvinmt 14y ago
  I like the way how Github handles DMCA requests by the way, everything's out in the open, including the lame claims people come up with.
• somontop 14y ago
  LayerVault copyrighted turquoise color? :)) so funny
• ryanAmurphy 14y ago
  Maybe they own a few hex codes.
• bzelip 14y ago
  so disappointing when our generation(s) act to limit the Internet. LayerVault please stop, we really dig ur stuff.
• timparker 14y ago
  Reply from LayerVault - https://news.layervault.com/stories/1992-layervault-whats-up-with-the-dmca https://news.layervault.com/stories/1992-layervault-whats-up...
• ebbv 14y ago
  Really glad I downloaded Flat UI yesterday before this crap started 'coz I'm gonna be using it for a project this weekend. Fortunately I only wanted the CSS. If an illustration was stolen (which seems unlikely, or at least it wasn't done with designmodo's knowledge), that won't affect me since I'm not using any of them.
  • mrkmcknz 14y ago
    Would you be kind enough to email me a copy. username at gmail
    • gurumx 14y ago
      You could just download it by inspecting http://designmodo.github.com/Flat-UI/ http://designmodo.github.com/Flat-UI/
      • kennethlove 14y ago
        That's a 404. I'd love a copy too, actually. Just the CSS. username @gmail.com as well, if you'd be so kind.
  • seakun 14y ago
    Hi! Could I please also get a copy? sskung at cmu dot edu
  • steven-yang 14y ago
    Might you send me the sass files? I want to use it in a recent project too. s at zenhacks.org
• mrmaddog 14y ago
  And here's a reply from Allan: https://news.layervault.com/stories/1992-layervault-whats-up-with-the-dmca https://news.layervault.com/stories/1992-layervault-whats-up... Looks like the pitchforks are out over on HN. It was pretty straightforward. Our reaction was "Cool, a flat UI theme" to "Wait, this looks familiar" to "Wait, are those our illustrations?". I contacted the designmodo people over email, because that's the right way to handle this. The owner was being stubborn at first and refused to admit wrongdoing. At that point, I submitted the DMCA request. Eventually, he removed the most blatant icons which (in my eyes) is an admission of guilt. They even managed to kinda lift the old DN icon :) http://imgur.com/3zoKuvH http://imgur.com/3zoKuvH If you have some intimiate knowledge of LayerVault's UI (which their designer apparently does), the similarities are a bit more than striking. That's not a huge issue until you release everything together - the icons, the colors, the UI elements, whatever. We give a lot of our stuff away for free. We put a lot of our projects on cosmos.layervault.com, we write about interesting concepts we've come up with and include the code on our blog, whatever. This isn't about thinking we own "Flat Design" or being mad that there's some other design out there with a similar aesthetic.
  • beseku 14y ago
    The 'old DN icon' ... http://thenounproject.com/noun/newspaper/#icon-No6346 http://thenounproject.com/noun/newspaper/#icon-No6346
    • tptacek 14y ago
      Huh? Not the same.
      • beseku 14y ago
        Now I don't know what icon is in the Flat UI pack, but to cite the DMCA's icon as being 'kinda lifted' from theirs[1] when it is so similar to a number of CC-licenced icons on The Noun Project seems like a poor argument in my eyes. [1] http://imgur.com/3zoKuvH http://imgur.com/3zoKuvH
        • 14y ago
• deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
• recoiledsnake 14y ago
  Someone please lend LayerVault some contrast. http://i.imgur.com/jfSuxcK.png http://i.imgur.com/jfSuxcK.png http://i.imgur.com/cMO4lxA.png http://i.imgur.com/cMO4lxA.png http://i.imgur.com/JnaZdN7.png http://i.imgur.com/JnaZdN7.png I cannot believe a "top notch" design house can get this so wrong. Edit: Designer News seems to suffer from the same affliction. https://news.layervault.com/ https://news.layervault.com/ A lot of sites that are HN these days seem to lack contrast, what's up with that?
  • alexwright 14y ago
    Eyes that aren't bleeding are so overrated.
  • cooldeal 14y ago
    My best guess is that most designers are young ones(contrast perception decreases with age) using (retina) Macs (which make fonts look thicker than in Windows). They then assume it looks good everywhere(or plain just don't care about Windows/Linux users users and/or older folks).Also, I think this design trend was started or made popular by Apple.
    • ricardobeat 14y ago
      Apple caused the trend of embossed text + gray backgrounds, but they never went low-contrast; in fact their home page still uses a quite dated top menu, and sharp black on white text. Colorful, pastel, monotone and low-contrast UIs are just a general trend along with "flat" design, I don't think it's roots can be pinpointed.
      • cooldeal 14y ago
        The web App Store descriptions and reviews appear to be low contrast to me. For example: https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/wordament/id580935508?mt=8 https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/wordament/id580935508?mt=8
  • jfoutz 14y ago
    It's what happens when you design a page in photoshop. take a step back, look at the whole page without trying to pick out any details, and the page is generally very attractive. The problem is, of course, a good page design should try to call out specific detail.
• HeyImAlex 14y ago
  I have the old pre-dmca Flat UI gitgub page from yesterday open in another window, and designmodo has apparently made a few changes since then. Just based on that, I'm going to guess that the problem was stemming from these. http://i.imgur.com/xDDULcG.png http://i.imgur.com/xDDULcG.png
  • drharris 14y ago
    This is the most helpful post here. Nobody else seemed to have tracked down what they were specifically talking about.
    • deleted 14y ago
      [deleted]
  • ajanuary 14y ago
    I can find icons that kinda look a bit like those that were removed (http://dribbble.com/shots/875799-Designer-News http://dribbble.com/shots/875799-Designer-News, http://dribbble.com/shots/800428-LayerVault-icon-set-for-delivery http://dribbble.com/shots/800428-LayerVault-icon-set-for-del...) but nothing that's a direct copy.
    • dubcanada 14y ago
      They look sort of the same? Three gears in a circle. A guy with a chat bubble in a kinda same style? You can't issue a DCMA based on sort of look a likes. Or everyone would be DCMAing everyone else. So the entire DCMA is invalid.
  • UnoriginalGuy 14y ago
    Any else can also see it for themselves by using Google's cache: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:designmodo.github.com/Flat-UI/ http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:designm...
• somontop 14y ago
  Interesting blog-post - http://bruun.co/2013/03/06/who-owns-flat http://bruun.co/2013/03/06/who-owns-flat
• sobering 14y ago
  For being a design oriented company, LayerVault can't choose type colors worth shit. I can barely read any of the body text on nearly every page of their site. They need to read up on W3's proposed contrast minimums: http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG/#visual-audio-contrast-contrast http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG/#visual-audio-contrast-contrast
• justjimmy 14y ago
  Does anyone have a active subscription to Layervault? Here's the Flat UI designs: http://designmodo.github.com/Flat-UI/ http://designmodo.github.com/Flat-UI/ LV is saying that illustrations/artwork was the reason for the notice so if anyone have artwork on the dashboard they can compare that'd be great (cause I can't find any copied artwork from their main site). Layervault https://layervault.com/ https://layervault.com/ The issue is artwork/illustration.
• somontop 14y ago
  mondrian - https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=mondrian&aq=0&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&authuser=0&ei=yoA3UZSgDPOW0QXmgIG4CA&biw=1682&bih=933&sei=zIA3UYHMJoPN0QWDjYHIDA https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=mondrian&aq=0&um=1...
• Daiz 14y ago
  What I personally don't understand is that if DesignModo did actually copy assets from LayerVault, why doesn't LV name said assets and possibly include screenshots or whatever in the DMCA claim? Or make a post about it. Or really, anything that would include the specific information so that people wouldn't be left guessing. As evident by the reactions, not being specific here only serves to make LV's claims seem unsubstantial. I'm personally rather doubtful about their validity for the same reason as well. Also, I think it's pretty ridiculous that a DMCA takedown can even be "valid" without specifying what exactly was infringed - "I am the exclusive rights holder for the artwork contained within Flat UI, Free Web User Interface Kit" isn't exactly saying much.
• dreamdu5t 14y ago
  Am I the only one here who sees nothing wrong with copying icons? Layer Vault doesn't own the things they freely display for others to imitate. I'm repulsed at the idea of "owning" a visual depiction of a fucking newspaper. And yes, I've worked for years of my life as a designer. I know what if feels like to have people copy you.
  • robmclarty 14y ago
    I'm not into people directly using the exact files I create myself (I mean, do your own work). But I don't think anybody owns the idea of "three cogs", "a newspaper that curls to the left", or "a head with a speech bubble". Don't get me started on things like Coke owning a particular part of the red light spectrum... Value comes from solving problems, not from a font, or a colour, or a texture, or a style.
    • robmclarty 14y ago
      EDIT: When I say i'm not into it, I don't mean I mind people using things I've made as building blocks for their own creations. I just think if you're going to use something, make something new/better out of it.
• mattwdelong 14y ago
  Does anyone notice a striking similarity between the "Debian swirl" and the e in Designmodo? It's obviously not a copy of it, but rather an "inspired version" of it. With that being said, it's definitely possible that designmodo didn't copy layervault, but rather was "inspired" by them. Not sure how that would stand up legally, but I would say that if I were designer, it would be "ethically annoying".
  • tobyjsullivan 14y ago
    Everything in design is inspired. This has been a basis for debate since the beginning of copyright law but it has been decided for a long time that inspiration alone is in no way infringement.
• Bitcodeing 14y ago
  I'd love to see the takedown notice they sent Microsoft, Vine , Google etc....
• aubreyrhodes 14y ago
  Seems like their complaining about the news icon. Here's the DN icon and the flat-ui icon side by side: https://acr-skitch.s3.amazonaws.com/news.png-20130306-130455.png https://acr-skitch.s3.amazonaws.com/news.png-20130306-130455...
• justjimmy 14y ago
  Complete Side by Side Comparison TLDR: Noun Project vs Layer Vault vs Flat UI http://imgur.com/IH1osAD http://imgur.com/IH1osAD If anyone notice other similar icons, I can update image with side by side comparison. Thanks to fellow HNers for the links to the images. I just stuck it all together side by side. Edit: Updated with more samples.
  • vicbrooker 14y ago
    There's arguably the talking heads as well: http://dribbble.com/shots/800428-LayerVault-icon-set-for-delivery http://dribbble.com/shots/800428-LayerVault-icon-set-for-del... http://i.imgur.com/xDDULcG.png http://i.imgur.com/xDDULcG.png
    • integraton 14y ago
      That talking head / speech bubble concept is generic: https://www.google.com/search?q=%22talking+head%22+bubble&hl=en&safe=off&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=Wpg3UciSMYWRrAGR8YCQDw&ved=0CAoQ_AUoAQ&biw=1361&bih=866 https://www.google.com/search?q=%22talking+head%22+bubble&#3... The Noun Project also has a profile speech version, though with curved lines instead of the bubble: http://thenounproject.com/noun/speech/#icon-No1202 http://thenounproject.com/noun/speech/#icon-No1202 Flat UI's version might have been partially inspired by LayerVault, but it's far from identical. In fact, the Flat UI head is very similar to the Noun Project's head, similar to how the LayerVault's newspaper is similar to the Noun Project's.
      • vicbrooker 14y ago
        I know that its a bit of a stretch but it wouldn't have surprised me if the head/bubble icon came up during the email conversation that preceded the DMCA being filed though. Doesn't mean I agree with it, but if you're going to have everything that potentially infringes LV's work you might as well put the stupid ones too. Plus it's now missing which makes it a bit suspicious (though the replacement is far better IMO which would explain the head's absence too)
  • SmeelBe 14y ago
• enra 14y ago
  When the Flat UI was released, I was waiting for Layervaults response. In their defence, the style, colors, some of the icons are very close to Layervaults, so I can understand their frustration. I have no doubt that designmodo had more than "inspiration" from Layervault. Probably they didn't break copyright, but basically they copied the style and made it a commodity (this is like the Svbtle thing all over again). Flat design is a trend, but I haven't seen similar site, with similar colors and style as Layervault. When you ripoff something almost 1:1 in design, necessarily it isn't illegal but it isn't honorable either. As a designer, you shouldn't do that to other designers.
  • craigching 14y ago
    I think that if they hadn't gone DMCA on Design Modo there would be a lot more sympathy here. Until LV shows that copyright was infringed (show us the exact copies), I'm on the side of "the DMCA was used incorrectly here and even maliciously."
• marcusy86 14y ago
  Take a look, here is good point view, and i think we have big problems if anybody can close accounts just with one letter... https://github.com/github/dmca/commit/735e17614cca63102b8414ed2846c3effbfe9535#commitcomment-2752431 https://github.com/github/dmca/commit/735e17614cca63102b8414...
• beatboxrevival 14y ago
  Always With Honor should go after LayerVault. Saul Bass should go after Always With Honor. Picasso should go after Saul Bass. Any designer that doesn't understand that design is an iterative process, shouldn't be a designer anymore.
• ender7 14y ago
  For the lazy, here's a summary of the claims that LV/DN is making: Some icons appear to be heavily inspired by LV. Here are three icons (circled) from Flat-UI: http://i.imgur.com/xDDULcG.png http://i.imgur.com/xDDULcG.png You can see that the gears and news icons do bear some similarity to LV's versions: http://dribbble.com/shots/800428-LayerVault-icon-set-for-delivery http://dribbble.com/shots/800428-LayerVault-icon-set-for-del... and http://imgur.com/rli5IVU http://imgur.com/rli5IVU (the latter via http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5332741 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5332741) In addition, LV claims that Flat-UI ripped off a number of other icons from dribble.com, such as this clock and map (Flat-UI above, originals below): http://cl.ly/image/3Q181w0b1u2K http://cl.ly/image/3Q181w0b1u2K (original dribble links: http://dribbble.com/shots/695458-Nasa-Playbook-Icons http://dribbble.com/shots/695458-Nasa-Playbook-Icons and http://dribbble.com/shots/877061-Map-2013 http://dribbble.com/shots/877061-Map-2013). Finally, the color schemes have been claimed to be identical: http://pixxel.co/feed/layervault-issues-dmca-takedown http://pixxel.co/feed/layervault-issues-dmca-takedown LV appears to be confused as to what constitutes copyright infringement. None of these icons are actually copies of the original, and even if they were LV would not have a right to issue a DMCA takedown for the ones they didn't own. This seems to be a massive PR blunder for the LV guys. They could have put up a blog post enumerating how many of their (and others') designs were ripped off (which is not the same thing as copyright infringement) and probably garnered some internet sympathy. Now, by misusing the much-hated DMCA takedown notice they've positioned themselves in the same camp with all the DMCA bullies we have grown to loathe.
  • vicbrooker 14y ago
    Colour schemes are irrelevant to the DCMA as they can't be copyrighted, though they can be trademarked in some circumstances. Either way there isn't a relevant infringement. Hope it wasn't the basis for the DMCA takedown...
  • ebbv 14y ago
    Bears a resemblance is not enough for DMCA. LV was stupid to file a DMCA on this. It was clearly a scare tactic and all it did was make them look like petulant children. If Flat UI had really stolen assets, that would be one thing. But aping a design isn't the same thing as stealing. See also: Apple v. Samsung.
• vicbrooker 14y ago
  I can't help but think this sort of thing is going to happen more and more as we move towards a flat/minimalist UI. I've read comments (not on HN) from people who have endorsed the DMCA takedown because of their personal ethics and morals rather than knowledge of the law. Particularly one who claimed that the similar colour palettes between LV and Flat UI justified the takedown - even though colour palettes themselves are currently not copyrightable subject matter. To win on those grounds you'd need a genius (and crazy) lawyer and a judge who is either asleep at the wheel or bribed. Then you'd lose on appeal anyway. Colours can be only trademarked. Using that colour is not a copyright violation. Hence no DMCA. It makes me sad that as we all move towards minimalist design startup founders will need to know IP law better than a few years ago. Some of this is due to trolling and some because of a mislead or otherwise naive understanding of the law like I mentioned above. It's just adding pressure on founders that we don't really need and more work for lawyers. A lot of us are doing whatever we're doing for the first time and that makes us (potentially) easy targets. A better knowledge of the law in this scenario might have prevented everything from blowing up like it has. But Flat UI and Layervault wouldn't have had as much energy put into the product and so everyone suffers. Then again I'm in law school right now so at least I know there's a job in all of this if i ever need it :-/ I guess I just wish we could stop bickering about stuff like this and get on with building cool stuff.
• etchalon 14y ago
  I'm not a massive fan of the most of the responses in this thread. Any designer would look at Flat UI and immediately realize that they drew inspiration from LayerVault. The similarities aren't minor, in either style, tone, or techniques. The three icons DesignModo removed were the most obvious offenders. And by obvious, I mean, "Yeah, you completely ripped those". So DesignModo has absolutely no right, in any sense, to be indignant. They produced unoriginal, lazy, copied work, and got called out on it. Within this thread, I see lots of idiotic bits such as "LayerVault doesn't own hex codes!", "You can't own a style!", etc etc. These type of comments miss the forest for the trees. Individually, no, LayerVault has no right to claim ownership of any specific color. But Flat UI's rip is the combination of a rip of all things together, not one thing in specific. Change the color scheme of the illustrations and you'd have less of a case. Change the shadow technique, or the general aesthetic of the icons. It's the COMBINATION of all of these factors which makes this a "rip". Now, what DesignModo did may not be illegal, but why is anyone rushing to defend them? In what terrible universe is being an insipid, unoriginal copier something any community champions? And why would anyone walk away with a negative opinion of LayerVault? Really? You don't think they should be slightly irked that DesignModo ripped off their distinctive style, and is _charging_ people for the chance to use it? It baffles the mind.
  • mkmkmmmmm 14y ago
    It's becaused they misused the DMCA to force removal of content that, while inspired by them, they actually don't own the copyright of. Vis., they are using the DMCA illegally to remove legal content.
    • etchalon 14y ago
      I'm not sure how they "misued" the DMCA. The law has specific mechanisms for notifying a hosted service of material which violates your copyright. If LV believes the work violates their copyright, they're well within their rights to request it be taken down. You might like the draconian nature of the laws mechanisms but it's not a "misuse". It's just "I don't like it when people use it."
• bratao 14y ago
  Anyone can provide a mirror ?
• kunai 14y ago
  What's kind of ridiculous is that LayerVault took a lot of inspiration (I repeat, A LOT) from Hacker News with regards to the design of their discussion site. From the URL, the minimalism, and the link design. Heck, even the name is copied -- Designer News? Really? I guess pg should send a DMCA takedown notice to them, then.
• beernutz 14y ago
  I don't care for the whole "flatUI" trend, but I REALLY can't stand this kind of blatant abuse of the DMCA (which itself can be argued to be an abuse of common sense).
• camworld 14y ago
  Congratulations to LayerVault on their biggest day of traffic ever. Whether this brew-ha-ha was intentional or not, a lot more people are now aware of them than before today. I like browsing their Designer News links on a daily basis, but I would think twice about signing up for a service run by people with questionable character and morals, which is the feeling I am coming away with after reading through this thread. This whole thing could have been handled a lot better and with far more professionalism.
• fuddle 14y ago
  It is still available for download on their site: http://designmodo.com/flat-free/ http://designmodo.com/flat-free/
• newishuser 14y ago
  You can't copyright a color pallet. You can't copyright an icon concept. Sending DMCA take-downs without full intent to prosecute and full conviction that your copyrights have been violated is not only illegal but shameful.
• stefanobernardi 14y ago
  The reality is that DesignModo is not new to this. I have been waiting for this to happen for a while. Their "Bricks UI" is an extremely blatant copy of Google Ventures' web site, and it's weird nothing happened there. http://www.googleventures.com/ http://www.googleventures.com/ http://designmodo.com/the-bricks-addons/ http://designmodo.com/the-bricks-addons/ I'm not on either side, but it's just painful to watch the reactions on HN. It seems like a lot of the commenters were just closed down somewhere waiting for the right occasion to blame some copyright enforcer.
• brendanobrien 14y ago
  I think this serves as a great testimony to just how homogenous / under-considered the "flat" aesthetic has become. For crying out loud, flatUI is a kit for replicating this appearance! I love the flat look, but as soon as kits for replicating a look start to grow in popularity, it's time to move on.
• deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
• mambodog 14y ago
  When you use an overly simplistic visual style, don't be surprised when it turns out to be very easy to rip off.
• binaryorganic 14y ago
  Now the "no design skills required" slogan from their site makes perfect sense.
• torbit 14y ago
  Nice color scheme. I just copied it to colourlovers.com. Now many can enjoy it.
• damncabbage 14y ago
  The DMCA counter-notice has been submitted: https://github.com/github/dmca/commit/6a33a213e04e7fc5e74ce3cab80fee778f641acc https://github.com/github/dmca/commit/6a33a213e04e7fc5e74ce3...
• DannoHung 14y ago
  If these layervault dickholes really believed so strongly in this, they'd issue a DMCA against designmodo's webhost. But then designmodo would absolutely be forced to defend itself and layervault would be liable in court. DMCA is a bunch of bullshit.