5 ms·

a) Does it matter what the "intent" was, if the result is very offensive and advocates rape? Edit: Intent matters, but knowing the computer meant something else

by beering 14y ago

a) Does it matter what the "intent" was, if the result is very offensive and advocates rape? Edit: Intent matters, but knowing the computer meant something else doesn't change the meaning of this item for a lot of people. b) Your examples are offensive, and I don't appreciate people who carelessly use the word "rape" like that. You might think it's OK in some twisted way, but it's probably worse than calling random things "gay" even though they have nothing to do with homosexuality.

will_brown 14y ago
>You might think it's OK in some twisted way, but it's probably worse than calling random things "gay" even though they have nothing to do with homosexuality. I never said it was OK - I simply asked how does anyone know which definition an algorithm selected and does it matter? I thought you gave an insightful answer noting intent matters, but in this case you feel it does not because either use is offensive. I did give the examples of how I have heard rape used in non-sexual contexts, and I am sorry if you were offended - but more importantly it is you who personally gets offensive by saying I am OK with that usage in some "twisted way". Did I ever say I was OK with it? No. In fact I go out of my way to explain that is how I have heard it used, but that is not enough you go on to say my being OK with using the word rape in a non-sexual context (which I don't) is worse than some form of homophobia where one calls things "gay". Please do not make up behvior I do NOT engage in and then compare it to other forms of behavior I do not engage in. Finally, you may have unknowingly brought up real insight to who you are, because even if I or others were to call something "gay" who is not to say it is being done using the traditional definition of gay meaning "happy or joyous"? Are you offended the same way when people use "gay" to describe something as "happy or joyous" having nothing to do with homosexuality, the same way you get offended when others use "rape" in a non-sexual context?
- mlent 14y ago
  Rape does not have a non-sexual context.
  - samuellevy 14y ago
    Except for when it's a plant (canola, a.k.a. Rape/Rape-seed). I get your point, though, but it was clearly generated by a computer, as are all the other shirts in that companies "KEEP CALM AND ______ ON" line. Most of them don't make any sense whatsoever. The computer doesn't "mean" any particular use of the word, because it's a computer, and couldn't tell the contextual difference between "rape" and "yell" or "run". The fault here is a poorly (or not at all) checked pool of words, and no human interaction between "generate slogan" and "submit to Amazon"
  - will_brown 14y ago
    http://www.thefreedictionary.com/_/dict.aspx?word=raping http://www.thefreedictionary.com/_/dict.aspx?word=raping The dictionary gives 3 examples of rape in a non-sexual context. Again, know that I am not saying the t-shirt was not offensive or in bad taste generally, I certainly would never buy it or wear it if given to me (no one I know would give it to me). At the same time, in a hypothetical where an automated Google car hit someone, would it make sense to yell and the Google car and say watch where you are going? See in this exagerated example, it becomes clear I am soliciting insight to human interaction to an automated system that did not have intent.
  - angersock 14y ago
    I suspect that the English "rape" has its roots in the Latin "rapio", which is very much not about sexual conduct--though the meaning clearly could be mutated over time (as it seems to have been) to mean forced intercourse. http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/rapio http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/rapio EDIT: For a further stack trace, consider "enrapture", derived from "rapture", itself derived from the future form of "rapio": http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/rapture http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/rapture . And people say that a classical education and liberal arts is useless. :)
    - KC8ZKF 14y ago
      "The rape of the Sabine women", to give an example. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rape_of_the_Sabine_Women http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rape_of_the_Sabine_Women
- Steuard 14y ago
  It's hard for me to read your original post in a way that does not imply, "This would not be as troubling if the word 'rape' was not intended to refer to forced intercourse." That may not be equivalent to saying, "This usage is OK", but its certainly suggests that you'd see less reason for concern if a (supposedly) non-sexual definition were intended. If that wasn't your intent, I think your original post was rather unclear. As for your final paragraph here, I'm pretty sure that you know perfectly well what the previous poster meant. Nobody actually confuses my grandmother happily exclaiming, "Oh, the decorations in this room are so gay!" (true story) with a seventh grader dismissively saying, "Social studies is so gay!" Discussions like this one proceed far more smoothly when everyone avoids deliberately misconstruing each other's words.
  - will_brown 14y ago
    > Nobody actually confuses my grandmother happily exclaiming, "Oh, the decorations in this room are so gay!" (true story) Notice how you had to qualify your hypothetical statement with "grandmother", re-read your own statement without your qualifier: "the decorations in this room are so gay!"? Still think "nobody" would confuse that? Honestly, if you change your qualifier it only becomes more confusing what that statement means or which definition is intended: 1. What about your hypothetical seventh grader what would it mean if the seventh grader said, "the decorations in this room are so gay!"? Does it automatically become offensive unlike your grandmother saying it? What if the seventh grader was LGBT? 2. Finally, please tell me what an algorithm means when it automates the same statement, "the decorations in this room are so gay!"? Is the algorithm your grandmother or the seventh-grader?
    - Dylan16807 14y ago
      The key words are 'happily' and 'dismissively'. If an algorithm is saying something then check its tone. If it's using text to make a statement have it add some smilies. Smiles are great for non-native speakers.
monochromatic 14y ago
I'm not sure intent even does matter, when we're talking about something a computer wrote.
jaynos 14y ago
The Fantasticks ran off-broadway for over 40 years with a song about rape (using the definition that means "abduction, kidnapping"): http://www.allmusicals.com/lyrics/fantasticksthe/itdependsonwhatyoupay.htm http://www.allmusicals.com/lyrics/fantasticksthe/itdependson... I saw the show in 2001 and still remember how hard it was to not cringe at that word even though the context was clearly different and the show was comedy. I am not saying that a shirt advocating more kidnapping would be appropriate, but thought you might appreciate the alternate use of the word from a historical perspective.

by beering 14y ago

will_brown 14y ago

>You might think it's OK in some twisted way, but it's probably worse than calling random things "gay" even though they have nothing to do with homosexuality. I never said it was OK - I simply asked how does anyone know which definition an algorithm selected and does it matter? I thought you gave an insightful answer noting intent matters, but in this case you feel it does not because either use is offensive. I did give the examples of how I have heard rape used in non-sexual contexts, and I am sorry if you were offended - but more importantly it is you who personally gets offensive by saying I am OK with that usage in some "twisted way". Did I ever say I was OK with it? No. In fact I go out of my way to explain that is how I have heard it used, but that is not enough you go on to say my being OK with using the word rape in a non-sexual context (which I don't) is worse than some form of homophobia where one calls things "gay". Please do not make up behvior I do NOT engage in and then compare it to other forms of behavior I do not engage in. Finally, you may have unknowingly brought up real insight to who you are, because even if I or others were to call something "gay" who is not to say it is being done using the traditional definition of gay meaning "happy or joyous"? Are you offended the same way when people use "gay" to describe something as "happy or joyous" having nothing to do with homosexuality, the same way you get offended when others use "rape" in a non-sexual context?

mlent 14y ago
Rape does not have a non-sexual context.
- samuellevy 14y ago
  Except for when it's a plant (canola, a.k.a. Rape/Rape-seed). I get your point, though, but it was clearly generated by a computer, as are all the other shirts in that companies "KEEP CALM AND ______ ON" line. Most of them don't make any sense whatsoever. The computer doesn't "mean" any particular use of the word, because it's a computer, and couldn't tell the contextual difference between "rape" and "yell" or "run". The fault here is a poorly (or not at all) checked pool of words, and no human interaction between "generate slogan" and "submit to Amazon"
- will_brown 14y ago
  http://www.thefreedictionary.com/_/dict.aspx?word=raping http://www.thefreedictionary.com/_/dict.aspx?word=raping The dictionary gives 3 examples of rape in a non-sexual context. Again, know that I am not saying the t-shirt was not offensive or in bad taste generally, I certainly would never buy it or wear it if given to me (no one I know would give it to me). At the same time, in a hypothetical where an automated Google car hit someone, would it make sense to yell and the Google car and say watch where you are going? See in this exagerated example, it becomes clear I am soliciting insight to human interaction to an automated system that did not have intent.
- angersock 14y ago
  I suspect that the English "rape" has its roots in the Latin "rapio", which is very much not about sexual conduct--though the meaning clearly could be mutated over time (as it seems to have been) to mean forced intercourse. http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/rapio http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/rapio EDIT: For a further stack trace, consider "enrapture", derived from "rapture", itself derived from the future form of "rapio": http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/rapture http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/rapture . And people say that a classical education and liberal arts is useless. :)
  - KC8ZKF 14y ago
    "The rape of the Sabine women", to give an example. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rape_of_the_Sabine_Women http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rape_of_the_Sabine_Women
Steuard 14y ago
It's hard for me to read your original post in a way that does not imply, "This would not be as troubling if the word 'rape' was not intended to refer to forced intercourse." That may not be equivalent to saying, "This usage is OK", but its certainly suggests that you'd see less reason for concern if a (supposedly) non-sexual definition were intended. If that wasn't your intent, I think your original post was rather unclear. As for your final paragraph here, I'm pretty sure that you know perfectly well what the previous poster meant. Nobody actually confuses my grandmother happily exclaiming, "Oh, the decorations in this room are so gay!" (true story) with a seventh grader dismissively saying, "Social studies is so gay!" Discussions like this one proceed far more smoothly when everyone avoids deliberately misconstruing each other's words.
- will_brown 14y ago
  > Nobody actually confuses my grandmother happily exclaiming, "Oh, the decorations in this room are so gay!" (true story) Notice how you had to qualify your hypothetical statement with "grandmother", re-read your own statement without your qualifier: "the decorations in this room are so gay!"? Still think "nobody" would confuse that? Honestly, if you change your qualifier it only becomes more confusing what that statement means or which definition is intended: 1. What about your hypothetical seventh grader what would it mean if the seventh grader said, "the decorations in this room are so gay!"? Does it automatically become offensive unlike your grandmother saying it? What if the seventh grader was LGBT? 2. Finally, please tell me what an algorithm means when it automates the same statement, "the decorations in this room are so gay!"? Is the algorithm your grandmother or the seventh-grader?
  - Dylan16807 14y ago
    The key words are 'happily' and 'dismissively'. If an algorithm is saying something then check its tone. If it's using text to make a statement have it add some smilies. Smiles are great for non-native speakers.

monochromatic 14y ago

I'm not sure intent even does matter, when we're talking about something a computer wrote.

jaynos 14y ago

The Fantasticks ran off-broadway for over 40 years with a song about rape (using the definition that means "abduction, kidnapping"): http://www.allmusicals.com/lyrics/fantasticksthe/itdependsonwhatyoupay.htm http://www.allmusicals.com/lyrics/fantasticksthe/itdependson... I saw the show in 2001 and still remember how hard it was to not cringe at that word even though the context was clearly different and the show was comedy. I am not saying that a shirt advocating more kidnapping would be appropriate, but thought you might appreciate the alternate use of the word from a historical perspective.