5 ms·

Blaming google for seo spam is not productive - spammers are legion and in constant battle to game google's ranking system, whatever it currently is. This won't

Blaming google for seo spam is not productive - spammers are legion and in constant battle to game google's ranking system, whatever it currently is. This won't change as long as google is used to search for things. There is a solution to his particular problem: better forum software. I don't want to trivialize the problem of writing spam-resistant forum software but it's not such an insurmontable problem (this forum being a proof positive for that). For the reference: I've been running a fairly popular forum (http://forums.fofou.org/sumatrapdf http://forums.fofou.org/sumatrapdf) for several years, using forum software that I wrote. I don't even require the user to log in, I don't require moderation for posts and yet I had zero automatic spam (I attribute this to my unusual captcha http://blog.kowalczyk.info/article/16fw/Best-captcha-is-exotic-captcha.html http://blog.kowalczyk.info/article/16fw/Best-captcha-is-exot...). I occasionally get human spam i.e. someone writes a post with the only purpose of linking to some other website. I just hellban them after I see the post in my rss reader. And I didn't even write any special anti-spam code (other than hell-banning), because I'm lazy. I can easily come up with simple ideas e.g. putting all posts that contain links in moderation queue. To reiterate: his problems were caused by a crappy forum software that didn't do much to protect from seo spam. I don't really know how current best off-the-shelf forums fare in this respect. I would rather not spend my time maintaining my own forum software so I have high hopes for http://www.discourse.org http://www.discourse.org. I'm sure StackOverflow had plenty of spam problems so discourse people should understand the problem.

greggman 14y ago
I'd attribute it to your custom software. Break phpBB and you can infect thousands of sites. Break your custom software you get to infect 1 site. I ran a forum using SimpleMachines. Turned on all the spam fighting stuff. Didn't matter. Bots or Mechanical Turks made 10-30 new accounts a day. I tried moderating the accounts but who wants to spend time every day to delete the fefRFGR34@foobar.com account. I gave up and shut it down.
- skore 14y ago
  To be fair, though, SimpleMachines is a very atrocious piece of software (not to mention their equally atrocious licensing, although it seems they're in the process of changing that[0]...), so it's no wonder. I could say similar things about phpBB, but that's quite a dead horse to beat (hey, at least they use a proper license). [0] http://www.simplemachines.org/about/opensource.php http://www.simplemachines.org/about/opensource.php
- JoshTriplett 14y ago
  If you see Mechanical Turk used for spam like that, you could report it to Amazon as abuse and get the account(s) paying for it shut down. I also wonder if Amazon has a content filter, to block URL patterns in Turk tasks. As for bots, IP banning goes a long way.
  - disgruntledphd2 14y ago
    Not if they really want your site. A place I used to work for was massively targeted by them, and literally the head IT guy gave up banning because they just rented new servers and continued the same stuff. Essentially, like Jesus and the poor, spam we will always have with us (as long as there's an incentive).
- muppetman 14y ago
  I use modsecurity on my Drupal forum. At the moment it stops pretty much everything that gets thrown at it, and the rest is stopped with Bad Behaviour and Mollom. Legit posts still turn up no worries. All the crap just falls away. I also have fail2ban rules in, so those that trigger modsecurity too many times get added and iptabled. Helps cut down on the repeat attempts. I don't think it's hard to block spam. I do agree it's time consuming though, keeping everything up to date.
Fizzer 14y ago
This really only works if you have a very small site. No offense, but Alexa's rank for fofou.org is over a million. No spammer is going to spend time writing custom logic to break your captcha. I bet you don't even need a captcha -- just having custom forum software is enough to stop all automated spam. If your site was in the top 1,000, you'd have a different experience since the spammers would be adapting to every one of your exotic captchas no matter how many times you change it.
- kkowalczyk 14y ago
  No offense taken. 2 comments, though: 1. fofou.org hosts the forum for my SumatraPDF site, which is 33,279 in Alexa. I think that's enough of a target, more than most forums out there. 2. I don't think it's productive to bring top 1000 websites into this particular discussion. OP's forum wasn't that popular and most forums, by definition, won't be either. Once you're there you're playing a completely different game and at that level you should have resources to win it. I don't see spam on Wikipedia, StackExchange, Quora, HN etc. When there's will, there's a way to fight spam.
  - nmridul 14y ago
    There are Human captcha breakers that you can buy for less than $10 for 1000+ captcha breaking. There are software / plugins that provide you direct access to these people. Once the plugin detects a captcha in a form, it just passes it on to these people. Your software solutions can do only so much. Wikipedia, StackExchange etc has Human monitoring (volunteers who report spam) in addition to automated stuff. Its tough keeping up with spam.
  - ash 14y ago
    I think you have the advantage of hosting the forum on the low ranking site. The forum would be more tasty target if it was on (higher ranking) SumatraPDF site. P.S. Thank you for SumatraPDF!
  - DanBC 14y ago
    Spammers target HN. If you have showdead turned on you see a variety of obvious spam (handbags and shoes) and non-obvious spam. And there have been some aggressive voting rings.
krichman 14y ago
I think better software would help but I also don't think Discourse is that software. I'm sure they understand spam but they don't seem to understand how humans communicate.
bradleyjg 14y ago
He's not blaming google for the original blog spam, he's blaming google for the deluge of emails requesting link removal. Since they are directly encouraging these emails by holding out the hope of rehabilitation they are responsible. Short of evidence that the blog spam was malicious and unaffiliated with the site, there should be no rehabilitation. If the site has valuable content the owner can move it to a new domain and try again. This time without being a scumbag.

greggman 14y ago

I'd attribute it to your custom software. Break phpBB and you can infect thousands of sites. Break your custom software you get to infect 1 site. I ran a forum using SimpleMachines. Turned on all the spam fighting stuff. Didn't matter. Bots or Mechanical Turks made 10-30 new accounts a day. I tried moderating the accounts but who wants to spend time every day to delete the fefRFGR34@foobar.com account. I gave up and shut it down.

skore 14y ago
To be fair, though, SimpleMachines is a very atrocious piece of software (not to mention their equally atrocious licensing, although it seems they're in the process of changing that[0]...), so it's no wonder. I could say similar things about phpBB, but that's quite a dead horse to beat (hey, at least they use a proper license). [0] http://www.simplemachines.org/about/opensource.php http://www.simplemachines.org/about/opensource.php
JoshTriplett 14y ago
If you see Mechanical Turk used for spam like that, you could report it to Amazon as abuse and get the account(s) paying for it shut down. I also wonder if Amazon has a content filter, to block URL patterns in Turk tasks. As for bots, IP banning goes a long way.
- disgruntledphd2 14y ago
  Not if they really want your site. A place I used to work for was massively targeted by them, and literally the head IT guy gave up banning because they just rented new servers and continued the same stuff. Essentially, like Jesus and the poor, spam we will always have with us (as long as there's an incentive).
muppetman 14y ago
I use modsecurity on my Drupal forum. At the moment it stops pretty much everything that gets thrown at it, and the rest is stopped with Bad Behaviour and Mollom. Legit posts still turn up no worries. All the crap just falls away. I also have fail2ban rules in, so those that trigger modsecurity too many times get added and iptabled. Helps cut down on the repeat attempts. I don't think it's hard to block spam. I do agree it's time consuming though, keeping everything up to date.

Fizzer 14y ago

This really only works if you have a very small site. No offense, but Alexa's rank for fofou.org is over a million. No spammer is going to spend time writing custom logic to break your captcha. I bet you don't even need a captcha -- just having custom forum software is enough to stop all automated spam. If your site was in the top 1,000, you'd have a different experience since the spammers would be adapting to every one of your exotic captchas no matter how many times you change it.

kkowalczyk 14y ago
No offense taken. 2 comments, though: 1. fofou.org hosts the forum for my SumatraPDF site, which is 33,279 in Alexa. I think that's enough of a target, more than most forums out there. 2. I don't think it's productive to bring top 1000 websites into this particular discussion. OP's forum wasn't that popular and most forums, by definition, won't be either. Once you're there you're playing a completely different game and at that level you should have resources to win it. I don't see spam on Wikipedia, StackExchange, Quora, HN etc. When there's will, there's a way to fight spam.
- nmridul 14y ago
  There are Human captcha breakers that you can buy for less than $10 for 1000+ captcha breaking. There are software / plugins that provide you direct access to these people. Once the plugin detects a captcha in a form, it just passes it on to these people. Your software solutions can do only so much. Wikipedia, StackExchange etc has Human monitoring (volunteers who report spam) in addition to automated stuff. Its tough keeping up with spam.
- ash 14y ago
  I think you have the advantage of hosting the forum on the low ranking site. The forum would be more tasty target if it was on (higher ranking) SumatraPDF site. P.S. Thank you for SumatraPDF!
- DanBC 14y ago
  Spammers target HN. If you have showdead turned on you see a variety of obvious spam (handbags and shoes) and non-obvious spam. And there have been some aggressive voting rings.

krichman 14y ago

I think better software would help but I also don't think Discourse is that software. I'm sure they understand spam but they don't seem to understand how humans communicate.

bradleyjg 14y ago

He's not blaming google for the original blog spam, he's blaming google for the deluge of emails requesting link removal. Since they are directly encouraging these emails by holding out the hope of rehabilitation they are responsible. Short of evidence that the blog spam was malicious and unaffiliated with the site, there should be no rehabilitation. If the site has valuable content the owner can move it to a new domain and try again. This time without being a scumbag.