4 ms·

>Oh, Haskell qualifies, it's just not in wide(ish) use yet. Seems to be more widely used than clojure. >Also, I don't know whether it supports mutable concurr

>Oh, Haskell qualifies, it's just not in wide(ish) use yet. Seems to be more widely used than clojure. >Also, I don't know whether it supports mutable concurrent constructs Yeah, Control.Concurrent.STM has vars, queues, channels, etc.

mtrimpe 14y ago
Clojure runs on the JVM which means that it's 'politically usable' in many more places than Haskell
- papsosouid 14y ago
  Yes, that is certainly the theory. Have you seen that actually happen in practice? Java shops almost exclusively continue to use java, and refuse to allow the dozens of other jvm languages. Every measure I can find shows haskell is more widely used than either clojure or erlang.
  - tlack 14y ago
    Can you share your Haskell vs. Erlang data?
    - papsosouid 14y ago
      Just the usual suspects (redmonk, langpop, tiobe).
      - deleted 14y ago
        [deleted]
  - banachtarski 14y ago
    As a professional practictioner of all 3, haskell is emphatically not used more widely than clojure or erlang.
    - papsosouid 14y ago
      How does being a "professional practictioner of all 3" qualify one to make that assertion? And how do you reconcile that with the fact that every objective measure available shows otherwise?
      - banachtarski 14y ago
        Link to the objective measures? The qualification is admittedly subjective but Haskell is not as practical for use in many use cases, whereas Erlang fits a niche very well, and the others (scala, clojure) are more general purpose. My assertion is based on what I know all my peers in the industry to be working on, and the sizes of the projects they are working on. If you have more data than this empirical data set, I'm all ears. Edit, I see you reference tiobe and langpop. This is a horrible* way of assessing industry usage, just fyi. Niche languages for example, may see relatively small general usage, but may be the de facto answer to a particularly type of problem. Many people use Erlang to solve their concurrency problems. Few use haskell (although that part is improving and I love haskell a lot).
        papsosouid 14y ago
        >but Haskell is not as practical for use in many use cases Except that is entirely nonsense. Your misconceptions about the languages in question do not imply a particular amount of usage from other people. >the others (scala, clojure) are more general purpose I can't even imagine how one could make such an absurd statement. All that demonstrates is that you have not actually used haskell as you claim, or you only used it 20 years ago. > My assertion is based on what I know all my peers in the industry to be working on Which is ridiculous, just like claiming haskell is more widely used than C by only looking at the financial industry. >This is a horrible* way of assessing industry usage, It is a poor way, but it is infinitely superior to the "cause I said so" method you are employing. Erlang and haskell rate close together in all of them, so it certainly makes no sense to pretend one is more widely used than the other. Clojure rates miles behind both, and it is equally absurd to pretend it is so far behind in every measure but is actually ahead based on nothing.
- robertfw 14y ago
  it will also be dead simple to integrate with spacebase, which is java
- regularfry 14y ago
  I don't dispute that this is true, but I still don't understand it. How have we got to a state where native code isn't politically acceptable?
  - seanmcdirmid 14y ago
    Native code is just too expensive to write/maintain and is not justified unless you need the extra constant factor performance it gives you, which is quite unrelated to scalability. In this case, at least, industry seems to be doing it right. C++ is reserved for the industries that really need it (gaming, embedded) and enterprise work focuses more on programmer productivity instead.
    - regularfry 14y ago
      So Haskell is damned with C++'s brush despite being safer than Java...
      - seanmcdirmid 14y ago
        Haskell is completely managed, its not very native at all. They have a garbage collector right? Since everyone is compiling to native instructions these days, GC (and the memory safety required for it) is about the main difference. At the end of the day, each one of your VMs are running on hardware, the point about Clojure being JVM-friendly is more about ecosystem and interop then some efficient execution concerns. You could say Haskell is interoperable with everything and nothing, and be right on both counts.
        regularfry 14y ago
        > the point about Clojure being JVM-friendly is more about ecosystem and interop then some efficient execution concerns. If you had only written that, you wouldn't have been downvoted. Almost everything else you've written here is wrong.

mtrimpe 14y ago

Clojure runs on the JVM which means that it's 'politically usable' in many more places than Haskell

papsosouid 14y ago
Yes, that is certainly the theory. Have you seen that actually happen in practice? Java shops almost exclusively continue to use java, and refuse to allow the dozens of other jvm languages. Every measure I can find shows haskell is more widely used than either clojure or erlang.
- tlack 14y ago
  Can you share your Haskell vs. Erlang data?
  - papsosouid 14y ago
    Just the usual suspects (redmonk, langpop, tiobe).
    - deleted 14y ago
      [deleted]
- banachtarski 14y ago
  As a professional practictioner of all 3, haskell is emphatically not used more widely than clojure or erlang.
  - papsosouid 14y ago
    How does being a "professional practictioner of all 3" qualify one to make that assertion? And how do you reconcile that with the fact that every objective measure available shows otherwise?
    - banachtarski 14y ago
      Link to the objective measures? The qualification is admittedly subjective but Haskell is not as practical for use in many use cases, whereas Erlang fits a niche very well, and the others (scala, clojure) are more general purpose. My assertion is based on what I know all my peers in the industry to be working on, and the sizes of the projects they are working on. If you have more data than this empirical data set, I'm all ears. Edit, I see you reference tiobe and langpop. This is a horrible* way of assessing industry usage, just fyi. Niche languages for example, may see relatively small general usage, but may be the de facto answer to a particularly type of problem. Many people use Erlang to solve their concurrency problems. Few use haskell (although that part is improving and I love haskell a lot).
      - papsosouid 14y ago
        >but Haskell is not as practical for use in many use cases Except that is entirely nonsense. Your misconceptions about the languages in question do not imply a particular amount of usage from other people. >the others (scala, clojure) are more general purpose I can't even imagine how one could make such an absurd statement. All that demonstrates is that you have not actually used haskell as you claim, or you only used it 20 years ago. > My assertion is based on what I know all my peers in the industry to be working on Which is ridiculous, just like claiming haskell is more widely used than C by only looking at the financial industry. >This is a horrible* way of assessing industry usage, It is a poor way, but it is infinitely superior to the "cause I said so" method you are employing. Erlang and haskell rate close together in all of them, so it certainly makes no sense to pretend one is more widely used than the other. Clojure rates miles behind both, and it is equally absurd to pretend it is so far behind in every measure but is actually ahead based on nothing.
robertfw 14y ago
it will also be dead simple to integrate with spacebase, which is java
regularfry 14y ago
I don't dispute that this is true, but I still don't understand it. How have we got to a state where native code isn't politically acceptable?
- seanmcdirmid 14y ago
  Native code is just too expensive to write/maintain and is not justified unless you need the extra constant factor performance it gives you, which is quite unrelated to scalability. In this case, at least, industry seems to be doing it right. C++ is reserved for the industries that really need it (gaming, embedded) and enterprise work focuses more on programmer productivity instead.
  - regularfry 14y ago
    So Haskell is damned with C++'s brush despite being safer than Java...
    - seanmcdirmid 14y ago
      Haskell is completely managed, its not very native at all. They have a garbage collector right? Since everyone is compiling to native instructions these days, GC (and the memory safety required for it) is about the main difference. At the end of the day, each one of your VMs are running on hardware, the point about Clojure being JVM-friendly is more about ecosystem and interop then some efficient execution concerns. You could say Haskell is interoperable with everything and nothing, and be right on both counts.
      - regularfry 14y ago
        > the point about Clojure being JVM-friendly is more about ecosystem and interop then some efficient execution concerns. If you had only written that, you wouldn't have been downvoted. Almost everything else you've written here is wrong.