8 ms·

iCloud is first and foremost just a bit of service glue to make the native email/calendar/etc apps 'work' without sending people to Google or assuming they have

by roc 14y ago

iCloud is first and foremost just a bit of service glue to make the native email/calendar/etc apps 'work' without sending people to Google or assuming they have a work Exchange account. In that capacity, it's as good as it needs to be. [1] Similarly the file sharing is just to set a third-party baseline so that file/save sync'ing between Apps on the mobile devices 'works' without sending people off to Dropbox. And in that capacity it also works just fine. Sure, it resists power-user use. But that's just because, in true Apple fashion, it's not built for it and doesn't care too much about it. But that only makes it 'shit' inasmuch as about 90% of Apple's services are 'shit' and places it distinctly outside the way Jobs defined 'shit'. [1] Though filtering this crude is cause to reassess that.

mikeash 14y ago
"True Apple fashion" has only recently been about resisting power users. Before about five years ago, they were all about enabling power users while still being friendly to regular people. This was much more compelling than their current direction. Remember, this is the company that built their OS on top of UNIX and shipped a terminal app with it standard. It all changed around when the iPhone came out, though.
- roc 14y ago
  While we're keeping history in context, let's also not forget this is also the company that was borderline irrelevant prior to their current direction.
  - mikeash 14y ago
    I won't dispute that they're far more relevant today, but I disagree that they were borderline irrelevant circa 2005. They were quite successful selling Macs and had a credible alternative to the Windows monopoly. The iOS stuff certainly moved them to a whole new plane of success, but I don't have to like it.
    - roc 14y ago
      As a power user I don't 'like' it either. But I don't 'hate' it. I just use third party services when Apple's offerings don't fit. The only bit I took issue with, is holding up Apple as having 'failed' simply because their focus is on other types of users. Particularly when they're serving those users at least as well as any alternative. And when those users are far, far more numerous than users like myself and their needs far, far easier to meet in an engineering and support sense.
  - skore 14y ago
    I got a 17" Macbook Pro in 2009 (when they were still riding the wave of the iPhone) because it was a solid piece of hardware and gave me a sweet spot of down-the-road-choice (I exchanged the cd bay with another hdd, added Ram, installed Linux). I was looking forward to buying further Macbooks in the future. All that was shattered with their new Macbook lineup (which are pretty much just beefier MB Airs). They flat out killed the 17" (which I still consider the perfect on-the-go workstation). I considered Apple very relevant around the iPhone release. The current direction is not the iPhone direction. It is the iPad direction. That's when they started to go somewhat batshit on driving away professional users. They could have maintained both camps pretty handily in my opinion. Both camps were quite happy and got along great. Why they decided to kill off one is beyond me. Sure, there is more money in everyday clients, but I doubt they were actually hurting their business with power users. Consider this: When I - a staunch defender of FOSS, user of Kubuntu, Free Software programmer, ardent antagonist of everything Microsoft - got my Macbook, I actually started recommending Macs as a choice to others. It actually did seem to me a better choice than going with Microsoft Windows. These days, I recommend Windows 7. That's what they have accomplished.
    - pivo 14y ago
      I also got a 17" MacBook Pro around the time you did. I really wish I hadn't though, it's way too heavy to really be useful for anything but using around my apartment. I've tried to travel with it a few times and really regretted it. While I don't relish the idea of a non-upgradable system, I do appreciate Apple trying to shave off every last possible gram from their laptops. My next laptop will probably be a 13" Air for that reason.
    - sixothree 14y ago
      My boss and I both had Early 2008 MBP 15". He spilled a large cup of coffee into the keyboard. He turned the machine upside down and it was pouring out. I sprung into action and opened that machine up and started dousing all of the parts with distilled water then drying them. I didn't need any special tools or even a service manual. That generation MBP had the most beautiful design inside and out that I have ever seen. It was the pinnacle of geekdom beauty and it only lasted a year or two.
  - Recoil42 14y ago
    >While we're keeping history in context, let's also not forget this is also the company that was borderline irrelevant prior to their current direction. You're retconning. Apple hasn't been 'borderline irrelevant' since before they launched the iPod in 2001. There's a six year gap there in between the iPod and the iPhone, and imho they didn't really change their direction until 2010 or 2011, with the release of OSX Lion, neglect of the Mac Pro, and the killing off of the 17" MBP.
    - beedogs 14y ago
      No one bought the iPod until about 2004, when they started selling them for PCs. http://www.michikono.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/03/windowslivewritermacsalesdoubledsinceyearago-23f400px-ipod-sales.svg4.png http://www.michikono.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/03/windowsl...
    - fpgeek 14y ago
      I partially agree with you, but I'd like to point out that, from some points of view, launching the iPod was Apple's first step in their current direction.
      - seanmcdirmid 14y ago
        I would venture to say that launching the iMac was turning point A, the iPod was turning point B, and the iPhone was turning point C. The TiBook was also quite nice, though I wouldn't call it as significant as the iMac in pushing Apple toward stylish and well designed consumer devices.
  - sixothree 14y ago
    And I would argue that the very OS he just described (combined with the switch to Intel) is what set them on the path towards relevancy.
- dman 14y ago
  Can you point out an OS that did not come with a terminal app standard?
  - mikeash 14y ago
    Mac OS, prior to Mac OS X.
    - scholia 14y ago
      That was when Mac users used to mock Windows for being a GUI perched on top of a character-based operating system. They generally dropped that line when Mac OS X became a GUI perched on top of a character-based operating system. Oddly, Mac users have also stopped mocking Windows users for having Intel processors, for not using SCSI and whatever else made Macs special before they turned into a variant of Windows PCs.... ;-)
      - mturmon 14y ago
        Every OS has chauvinistic users, but there's nothing to be gained by trotting them out for strawman arguments.
        scholia 14y ago
        Sense of humor failure?
        deleted 14y ago
        [deleted]
        skore 14y ago
        No, this is HN, where you have to be careful with your Godwin's Law. Particularly when it comes to humor wrapping a weak point.
        mturmon 14y ago
        I don't think so. I just believe, from long observation, that this line of thinking goes nowhere, but generates a lot of words on the way. (e.g., look around this thread ;-)
- rayiner 14y ago
  Counter narrative: nothing has changed. Apple has just expanded their business. If Apple made toasters, whether they were locked down or not wouldn't affect my opinion of what was likely to happen to my Mac. iPhones are toasters, not computers.
  - gonzo 14y ago
    I think the idea is that GP computers are trucks, iOS devices are cars, and not everyone needs a truck.
  - mikeash 14y ago
    I can buy the idea that iOS being locked down doesn't tell you what's likely to happen to your Mac. But once Apple started bringing iOS-like features across, then it becomes pretty reasonable to compare the two to guess at what they might do next.
    - rayiner 14y ago
      OS X and iOS share a lot of the same core code base, so of course there is going to be cross-pollination features-wise. Why should the migration of features to solve problems common to both platforms indicate you should start worrying about Apple locking down the Mac? Guess what: when Macs get touch screens, more Launchpad is going to make more sense, and full screen is going to be even better. That doesn't mean that Apple is going to start locking down the Mac. Indeed, as time goes on and their less technical users migrate to iOS instead, they have even less incentive to further lock down the Mac.
      - mikeash 14y ago
        When one of the features they migrate makes it so that the default state of a Mac is to obstruct running any software not approved by Apple, it starts to make sense to think in this direction. Full screen/launchpad are irrelevant.
        derefr 14y ago
- bpatrianakos 14y ago
  I don't see how power users have been left out. If you mean they try to keep you out of the OS itself I wouldn't consider that being unfriendly to power users. That's just how they've always been. If you mean the whole dumbing down of the UI, I'd say that's pretty irrelevant. As a power user there's no reason why you couldn't just turn certain stuff back on. Plus it's still the same BSD underneath and they still give you the terminal. I keep hearing that they're being unfriendly to power users but power user's are the ones who don't really need friends. I've been using Macs since 10.4 and since that time each time the OS is upgraded it's maybe a little annoying for an hour but then I remember I'm a power user and I know how to open a terminal window and do whatever the hell it is I want to do.
  - bad_user 14y ago
    My iPad disallows me to do tethering, functionality that's available on the iPad but that can be enabled/disabled by the career. My Android phone, from the same career, allows me to do pretty much whatever I want. iOS doesn't have a terminal. And considering the recent moves with the Mac app store, how long before terminals will stop shipping with OS X?
    - bpatrianakos 14y ago
      Seriously? iOS doesn't have a terminal? What are you going to do with a terminal on an iPad? Run operations on the non-existent file system? The iPad is not meant for computing. It's an entertainment device. That statement is almost like saying "TV manufacturers are forgetting about the power users! My new Sony flatscreen doesn't even come with a terminal so I could... uhh... adjust the picture, color, brightness, etc. from the command line instead of just using the real simple buttons on the side". The Mac App Store doesn't really have any relationship with the terminal. There's no reason to believe that its in Apple's interest in any way to take away the terminal. It's still Unix underneath, they still provide developer tools, and they still need developers to write applications for them. In addtion Macs are still huge in the design/developer community because they're well suited to graphic design work with their appearance, focus on large screens and high resolutions, and performance. They're pretty big in the developer community too as you get a great "point and click" kind of OS with full and easy access to the terminal and most of the goodies you get with a full-fledged Linux machine. Finally, your argument is that Apple is ignoring power users but you use an example where it's actually your carrier that's stopping you, not Apple. You said it yourself, the iPad does support tethering but your carrier is the one who enables/disables it. Seems more like your carrier is against power users, not Apple. In the end, just because Apple makes the OS more "point and click" friendly and comes with a pretty opinionated set of defaults for non-power users doesn't mean they're trying to keep power users out. By definition, if you're a power user, these things they're doing should be a minor annoyance when you get a new Mac and after a couple of hours you should have your machine how you like it because... drumroll please... you're a power user and know how to do that stuff! I personally don't see much difference between OS X and some of the more "user-friendly" Linux distros. They've both got the same underlying tools and are working hard to make it so your grandma can pick it up and get emails of her grandchildren within an hour. What I think the real problem people have, which maybe they just don't see, is that they just don't like change in general. New versions of OS X come out and they hid an option somewhere and everyone goes nuts and says "Who moved my cheese! This is the worst computer ever!"
- beedogs 14y ago
  OS X is going down the same path as iOS, too: Mountain Lion scolds users for downloading apps without going through the App Store; this can be disabled by digging around in the system settings, but I can envision a day where you'll need to open a terminal to set a system property from the command line, and then a day when they simply disable unsigned binaries from running altogether.
  - bitcartel 14y ago
    Sadly, there's a very real possibility that this could happen as Nanny Computing (anyone coined a better term?) is proving to be quite profitable.
    - beedogs 14y ago
      The switch from x86 to ARM for their entire computing line -- if it happens, as has been rumored -- will be what closes the door on power users.
      - TillE 14y ago
        What is Apple going to use for their own work? Their developers and designers are power users. It's certainly possible that the Macbook Air would switch to ARM in the next few years, but until you can write software for an iPad on an iPad, there's no getting away from OS X and serious processors.
      - gcr 14y ago
        Why? What makes an architecture (ARM) more suited "for the elite" than another slightly more complex architecture (x86)? If anything, power users can just recompile their open-source software for ARM and that will be that.
      - emilv 14y ago
        I see your pun: since ARM uses less power the power users will in fact not be power users anymore!
guelo 14y ago
My girlfriend's iPhone has been complaining about iCloud storage being full with some cryptic lockscreen message and she has no idea what it's complaining about or how to fix it. The "just works" narrative is a lie.
- nthj 14y ago
  And my microwave door handle fell off the other day. That doesn't mean GE needs to include a disclaimer for that edge case in every 30 second advertisement, nor that they're liars because they fail to do so.
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
  - chollida1 14y ago
    Wow that analogy is way off in left field:). The two things are very, very different. Running out of storage is an expected occurance. Your microwave door falling off is not expected to happen:)
- smackfu 14y ago
  If it's anything like my friend, it's because their phone has every single photo they've ever taken, it's set to do an iCloud backup, and it's over 5 GB. Very easy to do.
  - badgar 14y ago
    If the default behavior is to keep uploading photos until shit hits the fan, then it doesn't "just work" does it? You need to be told when to start cleaning up photos from your iCloud and how to do that properly (eg without deleting photos from your phone, so you can still show them to your friends).
  - robryan 14y ago
    Or it is possible if someone gets a new phone and doesn't restore off the current backup in iCloud it will make a separate one which will go over 5gig. To be fair most services have to force you to do something one you have ran through your free space.
lorenzfx 14y ago
Are the people at Apple actually using their own services? I cannot really imagine them using these dumbed down interfaces...
shawn-butler 14y ago
iCloud is also way to communicate bits of data between apps running on different devices for same user. Which works well as available/reliable key-value store without rolling your own. Read book on iPad at page 20. Open book on macbook or iPhone and book left open at page 5 when last exit turns to 20.

by roc 14y ago

mikeash 14y ago

"True Apple fashion" has only recently been about resisting power users. Before about five years ago, they were all about enabling power users while still being friendly to regular people. This was much more compelling than their current direction. Remember, this is the company that built their OS on top of UNIX and shipped a terminal app with it standard. It all changed around when the iPhone came out, though.

roc 14y ago
While we're keeping history in context, let's also not forget this is also the company that was borderline irrelevant prior to their current direction.
- mikeash 14y ago
  I won't dispute that they're far more relevant today, but I disagree that they were borderline irrelevant circa 2005. They were quite successful selling Macs and had a credible alternative to the Windows monopoly. The iOS stuff certainly moved them to a whole new plane of success, but I don't have to like it.
  - roc 14y ago
    As a power user I don't 'like' it either. But I don't 'hate' it. I just use third party services when Apple's offerings don't fit. The only bit I took issue with, is holding up Apple as having 'failed' simply because their focus is on other types of users. Particularly when they're serving those users at least as well as any alternative. And when those users are far, far more numerous than users like myself and their needs far, far easier to meet in an engineering and support sense.
- skore 14y ago
  I got a 17" Macbook Pro in 2009 (when they were still riding the wave of the iPhone) because it was a solid piece of hardware and gave me a sweet spot of down-the-road-choice (I exchanged the cd bay with another hdd, added Ram, installed Linux). I was looking forward to buying further Macbooks in the future. All that was shattered with their new Macbook lineup (which are pretty much just beefier MB Airs). They flat out killed the 17" (which I still consider the perfect on-the-go workstation). I considered Apple very relevant around the iPhone release. The current direction is not the iPhone direction. It is the iPad direction. That's when they started to go somewhat batshit on driving away professional users. They could have maintained both camps pretty handily in my opinion. Both camps were quite happy and got along great. Why they decided to kill off one is beyond me. Sure, there is more money in everyday clients, but I doubt they were actually hurting their business with power users. Consider this: When I - a staunch defender of FOSS, user of Kubuntu, Free Software programmer, ardent antagonist of everything Microsoft - got my Macbook, I actually started recommending Macs as a choice to others. It actually did seem to me a better choice than going with Microsoft Windows. These days, I recommend Windows 7. That's what they have accomplished.
  - pivo 14y ago
    I also got a 17" MacBook Pro around the time you did. I really wish I hadn't though, it's way too heavy to really be useful for anything but using around my apartment. I've tried to travel with it a few times and really regretted it. While I don't relish the idea of a non-upgradable system, I do appreciate Apple trying to shave off every last possible gram from their laptops. My next laptop will probably be a 13" Air for that reason.
  - sixothree 14y ago
    My boss and I both had Early 2008 MBP 15". He spilled a large cup of coffee into the keyboard. He turned the machine upside down and it was pouring out. I sprung into action and opened that machine up and started dousing all of the parts with distilled water then drying them. I didn't need any special tools or even a service manual. That generation MBP had the most beautiful design inside and out that I have ever seen. It was the pinnacle of geekdom beauty and it only lasted a year or two.
- Recoil42 14y ago
  >While we're keeping history in context, let's also not forget this is also the company that was borderline irrelevant prior to their current direction. You're retconning. Apple hasn't been 'borderline irrelevant' since before they launched the iPod in 2001. There's a six year gap there in between the iPod and the iPhone, and imho they didn't really change their direction until 2010 or 2011, with the release of OSX Lion, neglect of the Mac Pro, and the killing off of the 17" MBP.
  - beedogs 14y ago
    No one bought the iPod until about 2004, when they started selling them for PCs. http://www.michikono.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/03/windowslivewritermacsalesdoubledsinceyearago-23f400px-ipod-sales.svg4.png http://www.michikono.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/03/windowsl...
  - fpgeek 14y ago
    I partially agree with you, but I'd like to point out that, from some points of view, launching the iPod was Apple's first step in their current direction.
    - seanmcdirmid 14y ago
      I would venture to say that launching the iMac was turning point A, the iPod was turning point B, and the iPhone was turning point C. The TiBook was also quite nice, though I wouldn't call it as significant as the iMac in pushing Apple toward stylish and well designed consumer devices.
- sixothree 14y ago
  And I would argue that the very OS he just described (combined with the switch to Intel) is what set them on the path towards relevancy.
dman 14y ago
Can you point out an OS that did not come with a terminal app standard?
- mikeash 14y ago
  Mac OS, prior to Mac OS X.
  - scholia 14y ago
    That was when Mac users used to mock Windows for being a GUI perched on top of a character-based operating system. They generally dropped that line when Mac OS X became a GUI perched on top of a character-based operating system. Oddly, Mac users have also stopped mocking Windows users for having Intel processors, for not using SCSI and whatever else made Macs special before they turned into a variant of Windows PCs.... ;-)
    - mturmon 14y ago
      Every OS has chauvinistic users, but there's nothing to be gained by trotting them out for strawman arguments.
      - scholia 14y ago
        Sense of humor failure?
        deleted 14y ago
        [deleted]
        skore 14y ago
        No, this is HN, where you have to be careful with your Godwin's Law. Particularly when it comes to humor wrapping a weak point.
        mturmon 14y ago
        I don't think so. I just believe, from long observation, that this line of thinking goes nowhere, but generates a lot of words on the way. (e.g., look around this thread ;-)
rayiner 14y ago
Counter narrative: nothing has changed. Apple has just expanded their business. If Apple made toasters, whether they were locked down or not wouldn't affect my opinion of what was likely to happen to my Mac. iPhones are toasters, not computers.
- gonzo 14y ago
  I think the idea is that GP computers are trucks, iOS devices are cars, and not everyone needs a truck.
- mikeash 14y ago
  I can buy the idea that iOS being locked down doesn't tell you what's likely to happen to your Mac. But once Apple started bringing iOS-like features across, then it becomes pretty reasonable to compare the two to guess at what they might do next.
  - rayiner 14y ago
    OS X and iOS share a lot of the same core code base, so of course there is going to be cross-pollination features-wise. Why should the migration of features to solve problems common to both platforms indicate you should start worrying about Apple locking down the Mac? Guess what: when Macs get touch screens, more Launchpad is going to make more sense, and full screen is going to be even better. That doesn't mean that Apple is going to start locking down the Mac. Indeed, as time goes on and their less technical users migrate to iOS instead, they have even less incentive to further lock down the Mac.
    - mikeash 14y ago
      When one of the features they migrate makes it so that the default state of a Mac is to obstruct running any software not approved by Apple, it starts to make sense to think in this direction. Full screen/launchpad are irrelevant.
      - derefr 14y ago
bpatrianakos 14y ago
I don't see how power users have been left out. If you mean they try to keep you out of the OS itself I wouldn't consider that being unfriendly to power users. That's just how they've always been. If you mean the whole dumbing down of the UI, I'd say that's pretty irrelevant. As a power user there's no reason why you couldn't just turn certain stuff back on. Plus it's still the same BSD underneath and they still give you the terminal. I keep hearing that they're being unfriendly to power users but power user's are the ones who don't really need friends. I've been using Macs since 10.4 and since that time each time the OS is upgraded it's maybe a little annoying for an hour but then I remember I'm a power user and I know how to open a terminal window and do whatever the hell it is I want to do.
- bad_user 14y ago
  My iPad disallows me to do tethering, functionality that's available on the iPad but that can be enabled/disabled by the career. My Android phone, from the same career, allows me to do pretty much whatever I want. iOS doesn't have a terminal. And considering the recent moves with the Mac app store, how long before terminals will stop shipping with OS X?
  - bpatrianakos 14y ago
    Seriously? iOS doesn't have a terminal? What are you going to do with a terminal on an iPad? Run operations on the non-existent file system? The iPad is not meant for computing. It's an entertainment device. That statement is almost like saying "TV manufacturers are forgetting about the power users! My new Sony flatscreen doesn't even come with a terminal so I could... uhh... adjust the picture, color, brightness, etc. from the command line instead of just using the real simple buttons on the side". The Mac App Store doesn't really have any relationship with the terminal. There's no reason to believe that its in Apple's interest in any way to take away the terminal. It's still Unix underneath, they still provide developer tools, and they still need developers to write applications for them. In addtion Macs are still huge in the design/developer community because they're well suited to graphic design work with their appearance, focus on large screens and high resolutions, and performance. They're pretty big in the developer community too as you get a great "point and click" kind of OS with full and easy access to the terminal and most of the goodies you get with a full-fledged Linux machine. Finally, your argument is that Apple is ignoring power users but you use an example where it's actually your carrier that's stopping you, not Apple. You said it yourself, the iPad does support tethering but your carrier is the one who enables/disables it. Seems more like your carrier is against power users, not Apple. In the end, just because Apple makes the OS more "point and click" friendly and comes with a pretty opinionated set of defaults for non-power users doesn't mean they're trying to keep power users out. By definition, if you're a power user, these things they're doing should be a minor annoyance when you get a new Mac and after a couple of hours you should have your machine how you like it because... drumroll please... you're a power user and know how to do that stuff! I personally don't see much difference between OS X and some of the more "user-friendly" Linux distros. They've both got the same underlying tools and are working hard to make it so your grandma can pick it up and get emails of her grandchildren within an hour. What I think the real problem people have, which maybe they just don't see, is that they just don't like change in general. New versions of OS X come out and they hid an option somewhere and everyone goes nuts and says "Who moved my cheese! This is the worst computer ever!"
beedogs 14y ago
OS X is going down the same path as iOS, too: Mountain Lion scolds users for downloading apps without going through the App Store; this can be disabled by digging around in the system settings, but I can envision a day where you'll need to open a terminal to set a system property from the command line, and then a day when they simply disable unsigned binaries from running altogether.
- bitcartel 14y ago
  Sadly, there's a very real possibility that this could happen as Nanny Computing (anyone coined a better term?) is proving to be quite profitable.
  - beedogs 14y ago
    The switch from x86 to ARM for their entire computing line -- if it happens, as has been rumored -- will be what closes the door on power users.
    - TillE 14y ago
      What is Apple going to use for their own work? Their developers and designers are power users. It's certainly possible that the Macbook Air would switch to ARM in the next few years, but until you can write software for an iPad on an iPad, there's no getting away from OS X and serious processors.
    - gcr 14y ago
      Why? What makes an architecture (ARM) more suited "for the elite" than another slightly more complex architecture (x86)? If anything, power users can just recompile their open-source software for ARM and that will be that.
    - emilv 14y ago
      I see your pun: since ARM uses less power the power users will in fact not be power users anymore!

guelo 14y ago

My girlfriend's iPhone has been complaining about iCloud storage being full with some cryptic lockscreen message and she has no idea what it's complaining about or how to fix it. The "just works" narrative is a lie.

nthj 14y ago
And my microwave door handle fell off the other day. That doesn't mean GE needs to include a disclaimer for that edge case in every 30 second advertisement, nor that they're liars because they fail to do so.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- chollida1 14y ago
  Wow that analogy is way off in left field:). The two things are very, very different. Running out of storage is an expected occurance. Your microwave door falling off is not expected to happen:)
smackfu 14y ago
If it's anything like my friend, it's because their phone has every single photo they've ever taken, it's set to do an iCloud backup, and it's over 5 GB. Very easy to do.
- badgar 14y ago
  If the default behavior is to keep uploading photos until shit hits the fan, then it doesn't "just work" does it? You need to be told when to start cleaning up photos from your iCloud and how to do that properly (eg without deleting photos from your phone, so you can still show them to your friends).
- robryan 14y ago
  Or it is possible if someone gets a new phone and doesn't restore off the current backup in iCloud it will make a separate one which will go over 5gig. To be fair most services have to force you to do something one you have ran through your free space.

lorenzfx 14y ago

Are the people at Apple actually using their own services? I cannot really imagine them using these dumbed down interfaces...

shawn-butler 14y ago

iCloud is also way to communicate bits of data between apps running on different devices for same user. Which works well as available/reliable key-value store without rolling your own. Read book on iPad at page 20. Open book on macbook or iPhone and book left open at page 5 when last exit turns to 20.