11 ms·

Stanford Female CS Student: I Fight Impostor Syndrome

99 points by tarahmarie 14y ago

127001brewer 14y ago
... The good thing is you want to learn, and that’s all that matters. That's the best advice to anyone: never stop learning. Working hard isn't always fun, but it's - in my opinion - the best way to succeed.
stuff4ben 14y ago
I don't think this is limited to women. I suffer from this "syndrome" too. I went to work at one startup several years ago (geez almost a decade now) where I was surrounded by the most brilliant developers I had ever encountered. Definitely my experience wasn't up to par, but they hired me anyways. To combat the imposter syndrome, I worked my tail off learning all I could about their architecture and filling in my programming gaps. I'd like to say the imposter feeling goes away, but even today I get twangs of it when confronted by other brilliant developers (male and female BTW).
- fennecfoxen 14y ago
  Impostor syndrome as a new computer-science/engineering student is a sign that you have self-introspection and successfully recognize your limitations. It will be cured when you get a Real Job [tm] one day and realize that most programmers are as dumb as you are (or worse ;)
  - epochwolf 14y ago
    Worse. Definitely worse. ;)
    - S4M 14y ago
      Yep, the worst douches I ever met across programmers are the one who think they are really good, while producing some really really crappy code.
- binarymax 14y ago
  "Definitely my experience wasn't up to par, but they hired me anyways." Looks like you still seem to be suffering from said syndrome :)
- newnewnew 14y ago
  There's so much braggadocio in programming that it's easy to develop feelings of inadequacy for everyone. It' just not a "social problem" if you're a male victim.
  - slurgfest 14y ago
    To clarify, it is still a social problem for you. It just isn't an ideological cause, because you're male.
lbraasch 14y ago
I often hear beginner programmers state they cannot program, only write code that will work. I hear this commonly among Elec. and Mech. E fields, where coding is secondary in the education. It takes reading other peoples code to realize plenty of poor code has shipped and generated revenue. Yours may not be so bad.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
cantastoria 14y ago
I think the real imposters are the developers who act like they know what they are doing!
- tudorw 14y ago
  I like this comment, experts so rarely are :)
- dmethvin 14y ago
  That's the Dunning-Kruger Effect.
h2s 14y ago
This has absolutely nothing to do with anybody's X or Y chromosomes, genitalia, or gender identity. It's part of growing up and people of all university majors, professions, genders, shapes, colours and sizes experience it.
- pessimizer 14y ago
  It does. Women and minorities are primed to think that they suck anyway - and tech is a place where most of the ancient masters are white men. It takes a bit longer to learn to think of yourself as like those people, rather than a bargain replacement for them. Everybody can feel like an impostor when objectively competent; it could have been your parents or your older brother who primed you to think that any success you have comes from faking it, but that's not the same as saying that sex or race has "absolutely nothing" to do with it.
  - addlepate 14y ago
    It's amazing how people discussing this issue will completely elide class to harp on race, gender, and sexuality. The person writing this went to Stanford University and no one sees fit to bring into discussion all the advantages that went into making that possible. We simply refuse to talk about class, we simply refuse. Incredible.
  - smsm42 14y ago
    Impostor syndrom happens not because somebody was "primed", but because one knows one's own limits of competency and internal doubts better than anyone, but of course in others such things are not noticeable, so comparing oneself to others causes the person to self-doubt since everybody seems to be lacking internal struggles, deficiencies and doubts that are so clearly obvious to self. Of course, various "positive discrimination" programs won't help this too, since once one belongs to a group which such a program targets, one has yet another - in this case, externally validated - cause to doubt if one's achievements are of one's own merit or were just bestowed by somebody else due to the fact of belonging to the targeted identity group. In this case, if the identity group is gender- or race-specific, of course this component is very prominent.
saalweachter 14y ago
I personally find question-answering great for helping me feel like not-an-impostor. Answering questions helps you recognize both that you have valuable skills and knowledge and that your coworkers are not the brilliant godlings you think you're just impersonating. They're smart, capable people, just like you, who know some things and don't know other things. Now, you can't force people to ask you questions (although you can avoid discouraging it), but you can ask more questions. Even if you're stubbornly certain you can find the answer to your question if you only dig into the poorly documented codebase for another 45 minutes, occasionally giving up and asking one of your coworkers can (a) save you time, (b) maybe make them feel less like an impostor, and (c) make you more approachable so they'll come to you for help.
wuest 14y ago
This is a fascinating topic. I haven't heard of this in the past, but I certainly can relate. I hate talking about things I (do/have done) and usually tend to prefer to just wait and talk about things "once I actually do something worthwhile."
zeidrich 14y ago
I think that it's probably easier for women to feel this way. More specifically, I think it's probably easier for men to shed these feelings. As a guy, there are a lot of social opportunities as a CS student; from clubs to just friends. In my classes the ratio of women to men were something like 1 to 30, so I can imagine when a woman's hanging out with her girl friends, they're probably not CS majors. And when a woman is involved in a CS club, she's probably one of the only women, and feels a bit like an outsider anyways. I think that sort of feeling is helped along when you are recognized by your peers. If you feel like you are "Just a person learning to code" but you think your friend is an awesome programmer, and one day you're working on a project together, and you realize that actually, you write better code faster than he does, or he compliments you, or you solve a problem he has been stuck on; eventually you start to realize the people you thought were pros are really not any different than you. But if you never get that feedback, or if when you do get that feedback you feel like you are an exception to the group, it's harder to shed that yoke. If you go to girl friends, who have no experience with CS and they tell you "wow, you're really smart, I could never program." that's pretty meaningless. If you're in a club where you're the only girl in a group of guys, and a guy says "You did a really great job" you mentally affix "... for a girl" to the end, or you wonder about his sincerity. As more women take CS, and as more communities like the blog above develop, I think there will be more opportunities for women to find that confidence.
- enraged_camel 14y ago
  >>I think that it's probably easier for women to feel this way. More specifically, I think it's probably easier for men to shed these feelings. As a guy, there are a lot of social opportunities as a CS student; from clubs to just friends. More importantly, in male-dominated fields men receive praise and validation much more easily than women do, which makes it easier for them to get over their impostor syndrome. For women the situation is quite different. I work for a private software company and our owner and CEO is female. She once explained it like this: women in tech are not taken seriously until after they have become successful.
- newnewnew 14y ago
  I'm a man that started to code in my mid 20s, and it is hard to shake the feeling that I'm a decade behind the curve.
Spooky23 14y ago
You need to embrace that while you frequently feel like you have no idea what you are doing, most folks feel the same way. It takes time to become aware of what you know, and to know what you don't know. That's why true craftsmen take thousands of hours to master their craft. It's also why we build procedures and process -- it allows people with limited mastery to keep things going. My first day as a professional full time IT person was a DBA role about 3 days after my college graduation. The guy who hired me had left for another job, one person was on vacation, and the other was out sick due to a car accident. I got my HR paperwork done, found my cube, and someone dropped by to say "Oh, you're the new DBA, good. The system is down." Did I know what I was doing? Hell no. But we got an SA from another office on the phone and some helpdesk techs together, stepped through it, got things working and got things resolved in a few hours. The next time it happened, we restored service in about 15 minutes and found the root cause. The point is, you eventually know what you are doing. But you have to do stuff first.
- koshatnik 14y ago
  I had similar feelings when I started to use 'programmer' and 'developer' on my CV, and when I started my first IT contracting job. I had done programming in my previous job, but it was in no way acknowledged in my job description or grade. Similarly when I started to earn more than I had previously, I questioned whether I deserved it. The chicken-and-egg situation with job experience and employability makes it inevitable that you will be in positions where you 'don't know what you're doing'. But if you have the determination to seek out answers and fill the gaps in your knowledge, you'll become that expert you think you aren't.
addlepate 14y ago
Me too, it has nothing to do with my gender but could be related to the fact that I didn't go to Stanford. We all have different advantages.
benwgold 14y ago
I think I can relate... As I write this, I am sitting in the first class of my Compsci study abroad in Israel (Analysis of big data) which I now find out is mainly for master's students. So, I'm a 19 year old that looks closer to 16, surrounded by bearded, army-hardened Israeli's in their mid 20's. The class is also being taught in Hebrew and I don't speak a lick. 'Imposter Syndrome' is my life right now, but I kinda love it.
- tanglisha 14y ago
  Genuine question: How are you able to follow a class in which you don't speak the language? Are you just following the examples and the book?
rodly 14y ago
HN sure is one hell of a sampling bias, but it would seem everyone here has impostor syndrome. I think one important factor to feeling like you're an impostor who doesn't belong is being among others who are smarter and more experienced than you.
peripetylabs 14y ago
The Socratic paradox: "I know that I know nothing."
enraged_camel 14y ago
People who are saying this is not related to gender are wrong. It is very related. While both men and women can suffer from the impostor syndrome, men get over it much more quickly and easily than women. The reason is simple: in male-dominated fields men receive praise and validation much more easily than women do, which can help them overcome their feelings of self-doubt. For women the situation is quite different. I work for a private software company and our owner and CEO is female. She once explained it like this: women in tech are not taken seriously until after they have become successful.
- pm90 14y ago
  > women in tech are not taken seriously until after they have become successful. Neither are men, so I don't really see what you are getting at.
  - hackinthebochs 14y ago
    I'm sorry, but this just isn't true. (White) men in general are given the benefit of the doubt. They are assumed to be competent until proven otherwise. Women and minorities often times have to prove competence before being taken seriously. I have witnessed this first hand in many forms.
    - chc 14y ago
      > (White) men in general are given the benefit of the doubt. They are assumed to be competent until proven otherwise. Based on everything I have ever seen in my life, you are either completely off-base or overstating your case so wildly it's almost unrecognizable. If this were true, I could walk into any company around here that is hiring, tell them I'd like the job and instantly land it without so much as an interview because I'm white and male and thus "assumed to be competent." That is very much not the case. I have to prove competence first.
      - hackinthebochs 14y ago
        Are you being serious? Yes, when you're trying to get a job, you generally still have to prove competency (in tech fields at least). But the assumptions are still comparatively in your favor. What I'm referring to is more about casual settings, where there isn't already a process in place to judge competency. When people must make a snap judgement based on little or no information, a white man will have all the assumptions in his favor.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
danso 14y ago
I'll skip the gender issues in this discussion, not because they aren't central, just because I only have so much time in the day :) I'm not sure I agree with the OP on this: > So to all the girls learning how to code, and not sure where you stand: screw it, and just call yourself a developer already. Replace "girls" with "people" for now (again, I'm not saying gender is irrelevant, I'm just focusing on a tangent for now)...I know there is virtually no concept of "licensing" for the fields of "developer" or "hacker" in the way lawyers and doctors have it (i.e. you can't call yourself a lawyer just because you're reading case law for fun)...and that's a good thing. But there's something in me that wants to say, "Well, you have to have built something, and watched it either succeed or fail". It doesn't have to be something big. It just has to be something you invested your time in and that you put out there because you thought the world might be interested...at that point, even with a small project, you know what it's like to "ship" and be invested. To me, that's the difference between learning to code and calling yourself a developer. If I were to try learning guitar, does that make me a musician? If I read the works of George Carlin and think of one-liners of my own during the day, does that make me a comedian? I would argue 'no'. But once you practice and refined yourself to the point that you book a gig, or even do an open mic, then the labels of "musician" and "comedian" seem more applicable. --- OK, now for me to be really catty: Why does any modern blog (this is not the OP's fault, obviously), in this day and age, think it acceptable to use 13px as the body font for articles? Sorry, had to get that off my chest.
- tanglisha 14y ago
  I'm one of the owners of this blog, and genuinely interested in your input on the font size. I don't have great vision, and tend to browse everything at 110-120%, depending on the site. Is your complaint the specific pixel size, or do you think we should have used a different measurement? As for the developer argument, the problem is that there is no hard line. How big of a project must one complete before they're a developer? You said even a small one, but Hello World is a small "project" and certainly isn't enough. I completely agree that there is a difference between learning to code and calling yourself a developer. One problem here is that the industry uses developer, coder, and programmer interchangeably, although programmer seems to be currently falling out of favor. (I was once at a party where someone thought that I meant I was a "party programmer" or something.) Obviously they don't mean the same thing, but it's kind of like arguing over the difference between a geek and a nerd at this point.
johngalt 14y ago
How to fight feelings of impostor syndrome: 1. Look back rather than forward. Consider where you were even just 2-3 years ago. How much more you know now about X,Y,Z. The next goal will always stretch out in front of you. When looking forward so you'll never measure up to 'future you'. 'Past you' is a much easier comparison. 2. Look down rather than up. Consider how much you know about your domain. A Stanford CS student is probably in the top 0.0001% of people with CS knowledge. Don't compare yourself to the small number of people ahead of you, think of all the people who are behind. 3. Examine your track record. Remind yourself of all the challenges you've overcome, the hard problems you've solved. Think of how rarely (if ever) you've failed when the chips were down. Even if you can't solve [current problem X] right now, be confident that you will solve it. tl;dr Even if you're the slowest runner in the marathon, you can still run a marathon.
- stuff4ben 14y ago
  I found the following quote to be helpful, "I may not know what I'm doing, but at least I have no idea what's going on..."
RandallBrown 14y ago
Sheryl Sandberg, COO of Facebook gave a talk about this at the 2011 Grace Hopper conference. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMVCSrm65kg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMVCSrm65kg In my experience, lots of girls in CS feel this way. I convinced my ex girlfriend to major in computer science. She didn't think she could do it because she had never programmed or anything before college. I told her that it didn't matter, and that she had in fact programmed before. She used to love making myspace layouts. As she neared graduation, she was constantly telling me how she felt like she couldn't do it. That she was faking her way through all of her classes and that if anyone actually hired her she would be a miserable failure. Honestly, a lot of that feeling was probably my fault. I was a few years older and already out of college. The amount of help I gave her on assignments would probably be considered cheating at most universities. I always tried to make sure she understood what was happening though. So she really felt like a fraud. She had an internship writing code though, and even got a few raises while she was working there. I knew her coworkers and they never even hinted that she didn't know what she was doing. I just tried to keep encouraging her and telling her she knew what she was doing (even though I had doubts) So what happened? She's a developer at Amazon now. As far as I know, she's doing quite well.
- elisehein 14y ago
  That's so cool for your friend :) I hope you've taken some of the credit, encouragement is such a huge part of success. I'm a girl doing a CS degree and also often think that the amount of help I get from my boyfriend (who has graduated by now) borders on cheating which really makes me feel miserable from time to time, and constantly having someone next to you who you know can complete any task you have with so much less effort doesn't help a lot either. Other times, however, I acknowledge that as long as he isn't plainly handing the solutions over to me (which he never does) but just kind of acts as my rubber duck, all that can really be said is that it's just a fortunate situation where you constantly have someone to bounce ideas off of. It's also a question of not becoming dependent of that person -- at first I felt that he literally always knew the answer to whatever I was struggling with, but by now I've realised that it's simply about the ability to think out loud and make conclusions as you go along, and I know that I have all the potential to do that on my own as well. I guess it's kind of what the article is saying as well -- if you're used to someone being better than you and kind of like a mentor, it's difficult to adjust to a situation where you might just have caught up with them in terms of skill and expertise.
gtr32x 14y ago
"Imposter Syndrome", so I understand it, is not even an issue in any regard or form. This is the 'humbleness' that stereotypically exist among Asians. It is a trait that tells us to never be content with oneself and always be on the search for self betterment. The only place where I see this is an issue is if one decides that himself or herself is worse than other people and loses self-confidence. However, for people with real success and accomplishments I just really don't see this happening. They may deem their success to be lucky, but if they are aware that it was still a success, they will continue to try harder to make it 'not luck' the next time. Dismissing at the same time the false notion that he or she did not achieve. I would even go as far to call out that Imposter Syndrome exists mostly among perfectionists. They'll get this sort of feeling whenever they sense that someone else is better than them at one particular thing. Internally they try to achieve in all aspects of life. This might not necessarily be a good mental state since it diverges one's attention depending on the current social context one is in. However with a correct mindset then one should be able to utilize this trait to his or her advantage. The idea is to know there are things to learn, but not that I am worse than others. Therefore I know I have the 'Imposter Syndrome'. However I don't fight it, I use it.
ndonnellan 14y ago
I am reminded of this interesting talk by Amy Cuddy on body language: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ks-_Mh1QhMc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ks-_Mh1QhMc Most of it is not directly related (still worth watching!), but at about 15:42 in she gives her personal anecdote of impostor syndrome and "faking it til you make it". Which, incidentally, I think applies well to entrepreneurs.
tarahmarie 14y ago
I simply think that Vinamrata is particularly courageous to put her name and voice to an experience that all too many people of any variety are unable or unwilling to disclose.
tehwalrus 14y ago
I (male) had exactly the same experience when I started at a software company straight out of a Physics degree (only breif experience in Fortran..) I was asserting to (someone senior, can't remember meaningless job titles) that I was "not really a developer yet," and he told me off - "you sit at a desk and do developer-y things all day!" At that point, I got over the label, and when I left 2.5 years later I noticed I had put "developer" on my twitter profile - clearly my brain had accepted it by then!
will_brown 14y ago
What caught my attention in the article is the friend who always says, she is "learning to code" and people look down on her. This reminds me of the legal profession - when someone asks what a lawyer does, they should not respond with their title, I am a lawyer or attorney, rather explain that "they practice law". What does the HN community think about that? Would you respond to career questions by answering, "I practice computer coding"? As a non-tech it sounds professional and badass.
Mz 14y ago
I don't know if men have an easier time or not. But I am female and inherently am untrusting of most praise that comes from men. It usually comes across as a blatant pat on the head of a sort they wouldn't likely do to a man, which strikes me as belittling. Because it is delivered differently from what seems to be the norm between two men, it strikes me as either a form of tokenism/pity or makes me wonder if the real intent is to butter me up because he is attracted. Both are big problems, not any kind of leg up or meaningful assurance that I am perceived as competent. It is relatively rare for me to get backing of a sort which suggests to me that it is based on genuine esteem for my ability. Edit: My point is I can see that being a source of self doubt which men might experience less of in a male dominant environment. So I can see this being tough to overcome for a woman surrounded by men. (Not that I view myself as a woman in tech. I run a few websites. I do some freelance writing. I know a smidgeon of html and css. I have a certificate in GIS. But I am a former homemaker who paid insurance claims for about five years. My self image is not "woman in tech." I really do not know what professional label would currently fit me. It is quite irksome at times, though I suppose there is no need to drone on further about that detail.)
- tanglisha 14y ago
  I've experienced something similar to what you describe. There are times when I am new to a group, that I will be constantly told how very valuable to the group I am, how awesome I am, how happy they are to have me, etc; often before I've been in the office for an hour or written a line of code. After this sort of thing, I tend to be suspicious of praise from that group of people. Do they actually mean it? Did they even look at my code?
  - Mz 14y ago
    I have written a few blog posts about that sort of social dynamic. Some of them have gotten a tiny amount of attention on hn. I also had some interesting experiences in GIS school, which was 70% male. My male teachers seemed to have a little trouble with a woman being the strongest math person in the class. In one case, the professor asked me so often "how do you know that?" that a male student blurted in exasperation "she's obviously already worked it out in her head!" In another case, different professor, he bet me "lunch" that he was right and I was wrong. When he had to pay up, he thanked me for not letting him confuse the class. (He quietly gave me a twenty. I think he didn't want to eat lunch with a female student for fear it would look like a date.)
cupcake-unicorn 14y ago
I'm a female developer, and I fought this my whole career. It is real. I even bought several books on it, which are mostly outdated. It used to happen more in fields like law/medicine. I don't think I ever experienced outright sexism, but the group dynamic of all males often had to try adapt to be less abrupt/rude/direct, which was difficult for me to manage. And if you're going to post that I should have been the one adapting (and I was, in every way) - you don't get this post. It frustrates me to see many males posting here that this "doesn't exist". It's something you can't see or experience until you've been through it.
sakopov 14y ago
What Impostor Syndrome? We're talking about a CS freshman interviewing for their first internship. Be happy that your first internship interview had any challenging technical questions at all and stop belittling yourself. Heck, when i was a CS major in school, internships didn't even kick in until 3rd year. This has nothing to do with gender. As the top commenter says, it has everything to do with growing up.
slurgfest 14y ago
Something neglected in this discussion is the role of hostile interactions from others in this field. Impostor syndrome is not always something with a strictly internal origin. If people are dominating you and making you feel bad, and you become submissive, that is a pattern as old as primates and it shouldn't surprise us when it happens also when you are working with people who are extremely concerned with proving they or their clique are better than others. Which is super common in CS and a large part of why many women have a bad experience.

99 points by tarahmarie 14y ago

... The good thing is you want to learn, and that’s all that matters. That's the best advice to anyone: never stop learning. Working hard isn't always fun, but it's - in my opinion - the best way to succeed.

stuff4ben 14y ago

I don't think this is limited to women. I suffer from this "syndrome" too. I went to work at one startup several years ago (geez almost a decade now) where I was surrounded by the most brilliant developers I had ever encountered. Definitely my experience wasn't up to par, but they hired me anyways. To combat the imposter syndrome, I worked my tail off learning all I could about their architecture and filling in my programming gaps. I'd like to say the imposter feeling goes away, but even today I get twangs of it when confronted by other brilliant developers (male and female BTW).

fennecfoxen 14y ago
Impostor syndrome as a new computer-science/engineering student is a sign that you have self-introspection and successfully recognize your limitations. It will be cured when you get a Real Job [tm] one day and realize that most programmers are as dumb as you are (or worse ;)
- epochwolf 14y ago
  Worse. Definitely worse. ;)
  - S4M 14y ago
    Yep, the worst douches I ever met across programmers are the one who think they are really good, while producing some really really crappy code.
binarymax 14y ago
"Definitely my experience wasn't up to par, but they hired me anyways." Looks like you still seem to be suffering from said syndrome :)
newnewnew 14y ago
There's so much braggadocio in programming that it's easy to develop feelings of inadequacy for everyone. It' just not a "social problem" if you're a male victim.
- slurgfest 14y ago
  To clarify, it is still a social problem for you. It just isn't an ideological cause, because you're male.

lbraasch 14y ago

I often hear beginner programmers state they cannot program, only write code that will work. I hear this commonly among Elec. and Mech. E fields, where coding is secondary in the education. It takes reading other peoples code to realize plenty of poor code has shipped and generated revenue. Yours may not be so bad.

deleted 14y ago
[deleted]

cantastoria 14y ago

I think the real imposters are the developers who act like they know what they are doing!

tudorw 14y ago
I like this comment, experts so rarely are :)
dmethvin 14y ago
That's the Dunning-Kruger Effect.

h2s 14y ago

This has absolutely nothing to do with anybody's X or Y chromosomes, genitalia, or gender identity. It's part of growing up and people of all university majors, professions, genders, shapes, colours and sizes experience it.

pessimizer 14y ago
It does. Women and minorities are primed to think that they suck anyway - and tech is a place where most of the ancient masters are white men. It takes a bit longer to learn to think of yourself as like those people, rather than a bargain replacement for them. Everybody can feel like an impostor when objectively competent; it could have been your parents or your older brother who primed you to think that any success you have comes from faking it, but that's not the same as saying that sex or race has "absolutely nothing" to do with it.
- addlepate 14y ago
  It's amazing how people discussing this issue will completely elide class to harp on race, gender, and sexuality. The person writing this went to Stanford University and no one sees fit to bring into discussion all the advantages that went into making that possible. We simply refuse to talk about class, we simply refuse. Incredible.
- smsm42 14y ago
  Impostor syndrom happens not because somebody was "primed", but because one knows one's own limits of competency and internal doubts better than anyone, but of course in others such things are not noticeable, so comparing oneself to others causes the person to self-doubt since everybody seems to be lacking internal struggles, deficiencies and doubts that are so clearly obvious to self. Of course, various "positive discrimination" programs won't help this too, since once one belongs to a group which such a program targets, one has yet another - in this case, externally validated - cause to doubt if one's achievements are of one's own merit or were just bestowed by somebody else due to the fact of belonging to the targeted identity group. In this case, if the identity group is gender- or race-specific, of course this component is very prominent.

saalweachter 14y ago

I personally find question-answering great for helping me feel like not-an-impostor. Answering questions helps you recognize both that you have valuable skills and knowledge and that your coworkers are not the brilliant godlings you think you're just impersonating. They're smart, capable people, just like you, who know some things and don't know other things. Now, you can't force people to ask you questions (although you can avoid discouraging it), but you can ask more questions. Even if you're stubbornly certain you can find the answer to your question if you only dig into the poorly documented codebase for another 45 minutes, occasionally giving up and asking one of your coworkers can (a) save you time, (b) maybe make them feel less like an impostor, and (c) make you more approachable so they'll come to you for help.

wuest 14y ago

This is a fascinating topic. I haven't heard of this in the past, but I certainly can relate. I hate talking about things I (do/have done) and usually tend to prefer to just wait and talk about things "once I actually do something worthwhile."

zeidrich 14y ago

I think that it's probably easier for women to feel this way. More specifically, I think it's probably easier for men to shed these feelings. As a guy, there are a lot of social opportunities as a CS student; from clubs to just friends. In my classes the ratio of women to men were something like 1 to 30, so I can imagine when a woman's hanging out with her girl friends, they're probably not CS majors. And when a woman is involved in a CS club, she's probably one of the only women, and feels a bit like an outsider anyways. I think that sort of feeling is helped along when you are recognized by your peers. If you feel like you are "Just a person learning to code" but you think your friend is an awesome programmer, and one day you're working on a project together, and you realize that actually, you write better code faster than he does, or he compliments you, or you solve a problem he has been stuck on; eventually you start to realize the people you thought were pros are really not any different than you. But if you never get that feedback, or if when you do get that feedback you feel like you are an exception to the group, it's harder to shed that yoke. If you go to girl friends, who have no experience with CS and they tell you "wow, you're really smart, I could never program." that's pretty meaningless. If you're in a club where you're the only girl in a group of guys, and a guy says "You did a really great job" you mentally affix "... for a girl" to the end, or you wonder about his sincerity. As more women take CS, and as more communities like the blog above develop, I think there will be more opportunities for women to find that confidence.

enraged_camel 14y ago
>>I think that it's probably easier for women to feel this way. More specifically, I think it's probably easier for men to shed these feelings. As a guy, there are a lot of social opportunities as a CS student; from clubs to just friends. More importantly, in male-dominated fields men receive praise and validation much more easily than women do, which makes it easier for them to get over their impostor syndrome. For women the situation is quite different. I work for a private software company and our owner and CEO is female. She once explained it like this: women in tech are not taken seriously until after they have become successful.
newnewnew 14y ago
I'm a man that started to code in my mid 20s, and it is hard to shake the feeling that I'm a decade behind the curve.

Spooky23 14y ago

You need to embrace that while you frequently feel like you have no idea what you are doing, most folks feel the same way. It takes time to become aware of what you know, and to know what you don't know. That's why true craftsmen take thousands of hours to master their craft. It's also why we build procedures and process -- it allows people with limited mastery to keep things going. My first day as a professional full time IT person was a DBA role about 3 days after my college graduation. The guy who hired me had left for another job, one person was on vacation, and the other was out sick due to a car accident. I got my HR paperwork done, found my cube, and someone dropped by to say "Oh, you're the new DBA, good. The system is down." Did I know what I was doing? Hell no. But we got an SA from another office on the phone and some helpdesk techs together, stepped through it, got things working and got things resolved in a few hours. The next time it happened, we restored service in about 15 minutes and found the root cause. The point is, you eventually know what you are doing. But you have to do stuff first.

koshatnik 14y ago
I had similar feelings when I started to use 'programmer' and 'developer' on my CV, and when I started my first IT contracting job. I had done programming in my previous job, but it was in no way acknowledged in my job description or grade. Similarly when I started to earn more than I had previously, I questioned whether I deserved it. The chicken-and-egg situation with job experience and employability makes it inevitable that you will be in positions where you 'don't know what you're doing'. But if you have the determination to seek out answers and fill the gaps in your knowledge, you'll become that expert you think you aren't.

addlepate 14y ago

Me too, it has nothing to do with my gender but could be related to the fact that I didn't go to Stanford. We all have different advantages.

benwgold 14y ago

I think I can relate... As I write this, I am sitting in the first class of my Compsci study abroad in Israel (Analysis of big data) which I now find out is mainly for master's students. So, I'm a 19 year old that looks closer to 16, surrounded by bearded, army-hardened Israeli's in their mid 20's. The class is also being taught in Hebrew and I don't speak a lick. 'Imposter Syndrome' is my life right now, but I kinda love it.

tanglisha 14y ago
Genuine question: How are you able to follow a class in which you don't speak the language? Are you just following the examples and the book?

rodly 14y ago

HN sure is one hell of a sampling bias, but it would seem everyone here has impostor syndrome. I think one important factor to feeling like you're an impostor who doesn't belong is being among others who are smarter and more experienced than you.

peripetylabs 14y ago

The Socratic paradox: "I know that I know nothing."

enraged_camel 14y ago

People who are saying this is not related to gender are wrong. It is very related. While both men and women can suffer from the impostor syndrome, men get over it much more quickly and easily than women. The reason is simple: in male-dominated fields men receive praise and validation much more easily than women do, which can help them overcome their feelings of self-doubt. For women the situation is quite different. I work for a private software company and our owner and CEO is female. She once explained it like this: women in tech are not taken seriously until after they have become successful.

pm90 14y ago
> women in tech are not taken seriously until after they have become successful. Neither are men, so I don't really see what you are getting at.
- hackinthebochs 14y ago
  I'm sorry, but this just isn't true. (White) men in general are given the benefit of the doubt. They are assumed to be competent until proven otherwise. Women and minorities often times have to prove competence before being taken seriously. I have witnessed this first hand in many forms.
  - chc 14y ago
    > (White) men in general are given the benefit of the doubt. They are assumed to be competent until proven otherwise. Based on everything I have ever seen in my life, you are either completely off-base or overstating your case so wildly it's almost unrecognizable. If this were true, I could walk into any company around here that is hiring, tell them I'd like the job and instantly land it without so much as an interview because I'm white and male and thus "assumed to be competent." That is very much not the case. I have to prove competence first.
    - hackinthebochs 14y ago
      Are you being serious? Yes, when you're trying to get a job, you generally still have to prove competency (in tech fields at least). But the assumptions are still comparatively in your favor. What I'm referring to is more about casual settings, where there isn't already a process in place to judge competency. When people must make a snap judgement based on little or no information, a white man will have all the assumptions in his favor.

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

danso 14y ago

I'll skip the gender issues in this discussion, not because they aren't central, just because I only have so much time in the day :) I'm not sure I agree with the OP on this: > So to all the girls learning how to code, and not sure where you stand: screw it, and just call yourself a developer already. Replace "girls" with "people" for now (again, I'm not saying gender is irrelevant, I'm just focusing on a tangent for now)...I know there is virtually no concept of "licensing" for the fields of "developer" or "hacker" in the way lawyers and doctors have it (i.e. you can't call yourself a lawyer just because you're reading case law for fun)...and that's a good thing. But there's something in me that wants to say, "Well, you have to have built something, and watched it either succeed or fail". It doesn't have to be something big. It just has to be something you invested your time in and that you put out there because you thought the world might be interested...at that point, even with a small project, you know what it's like to "ship" and be invested. To me, that's the difference between learning to code and calling yourself a developer. If I were to try learning guitar, does that make me a musician? If I read the works of George Carlin and think of one-liners of my own during the day, does that make me a comedian? I would argue 'no'. But once you practice and refined yourself to the point that you book a gig, or even do an open mic, then the labels of "musician" and "comedian" seem more applicable. --- OK, now for me to be really catty: Why does any modern blog (this is not the OP's fault, obviously), in this day and age, think it acceptable to use 13px as the body font for articles? Sorry, had to get that off my chest.

tanglisha 14y ago
I'm one of the owners of this blog, and genuinely interested in your input on the font size. I don't have great vision, and tend to browse everything at 110-120%, depending on the site. Is your complaint the specific pixel size, or do you think we should have used a different measurement? As for the developer argument, the problem is that there is no hard line. How big of a project must one complete before they're a developer? You said even a small one, but Hello World is a small "project" and certainly isn't enough. I completely agree that there is a difference between learning to code and calling yourself a developer. One problem here is that the industry uses developer, coder, and programmer interchangeably, although programmer seems to be currently falling out of favor. (I was once at a party where someone thought that I meant I was a "party programmer" or something.) Obviously they don't mean the same thing, but it's kind of like arguing over the difference between a geek and a nerd at this point.

johngalt 14y ago

How to fight feelings of impostor syndrome: 1. Look back rather than forward. Consider where you were even just 2-3 years ago. How much more you know now about X,Y,Z. The next goal will always stretch out in front of you. When looking forward so you'll never measure up to 'future you'. 'Past you' is a much easier comparison. 2. Look down rather than up. Consider how much you know about your domain. A Stanford CS student is probably in the top 0.0001% of people with CS knowledge. Don't compare yourself to the small number of people ahead of you, think of all the people who are behind. 3. Examine your track record. Remind yourself of all the challenges you've overcome, the hard problems you've solved. Think of how rarely (if ever) you've failed when the chips were down. Even if you can't solve [current problem X] right now, be confident that you will solve it. tl;dr Even if you're the slowest runner in the marathon, you can still run a marathon.

stuff4ben 14y ago
I found the following quote to be helpful, "I may not know what I'm doing, but at least I have no idea what's going on..."

RandallBrown 14y ago

Sheryl Sandberg, COO of Facebook gave a talk about this at the 2011 Grace Hopper conference. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMVCSrm65kg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMVCSrm65kg In my experience, lots of girls in CS feel this way. I convinced my ex girlfriend to major in computer science. She didn't think she could do it because she had never programmed or anything before college. I told her that it didn't matter, and that she had in fact programmed before. She used to love making myspace layouts. As she neared graduation, she was constantly telling me how she felt like she couldn't do it. That she was faking her way through all of her classes and that if anyone actually hired her she would be a miserable failure. Honestly, a lot of that feeling was probably my fault. I was a few years older and already out of college. The amount of help I gave her on assignments would probably be considered cheating at most universities. I always tried to make sure she understood what was happening though. So she really felt like a fraud. She had an internship writing code though, and even got a few raises while she was working there. I knew her coworkers and they never even hinted that she didn't know what she was doing. I just tried to keep encouraging her and telling her she knew what she was doing (even though I had doubts) So what happened? She's a developer at Amazon now. As far as I know, she's doing quite well.

elisehein 14y ago
That's so cool for your friend :) I hope you've taken some of the credit, encouragement is such a huge part of success. I'm a girl doing a CS degree and also often think that the amount of help I get from my boyfriend (who has graduated by now) borders on cheating which really makes me feel miserable from time to time, and constantly having someone next to you who you know can complete any task you have with so much less effort doesn't help a lot either. Other times, however, I acknowledge that as long as he isn't plainly handing the solutions over to me (which he never does) but just kind of acts as my rubber duck, all that can really be said is that it's just a fortunate situation where you constantly have someone to bounce ideas off of. It's also a question of not becoming dependent of that person -- at first I felt that he literally always knew the answer to whatever I was struggling with, but by now I've realised that it's simply about the ability to think out loud and make conclusions as you go along, and I know that I have all the potential to do that on my own as well. I guess it's kind of what the article is saying as well -- if you're used to someone being better than you and kind of like a mentor, it's difficult to adjust to a situation where you might just have caught up with them in terms of skill and expertise.

gtr32x 14y ago

"Imposter Syndrome", so I understand it, is not even an issue in any regard or form. This is the 'humbleness' that stereotypically exist among Asians. It is a trait that tells us to never be content with oneself and always be on the search for self betterment. The only place where I see this is an issue is if one decides that himself or herself is worse than other people and loses self-confidence. However, for people with real success and accomplishments I just really don't see this happening. They may deem their success to be lucky, but if they are aware that it was still a success, they will continue to try harder to make it 'not luck' the next time. Dismissing at the same time the false notion that he or she did not achieve. I would even go as far to call out that Imposter Syndrome exists mostly among perfectionists. They'll get this sort of feeling whenever they sense that someone else is better than them at one particular thing. Internally they try to achieve in all aspects of life. This might not necessarily be a good mental state since it diverges one's attention depending on the current social context one is in. However with a correct mindset then one should be able to utilize this trait to his or her advantage. The idea is to know there are things to learn, but not that I am worse than others. Therefore I know I have the 'Imposter Syndrome'. However I don't fight it, I use it.

ndonnellan 14y ago

I am reminded of this interesting talk by Amy Cuddy on body language: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ks-_Mh1QhMc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ks-_Mh1QhMc Most of it is not directly related (still worth watching!), but at about 15:42 in she gives her personal anecdote of impostor syndrome and "faking it til you make it". Which, incidentally, I think applies well to entrepreneurs.

tarahmarie 14y ago

I simply think that Vinamrata is particularly courageous to put her name and voice to an experience that all too many people of any variety are unable or unwilling to disclose.

tehwalrus 14y ago

I (male) had exactly the same experience when I started at a software company straight out of a Physics degree (only breif experience in Fortran..) I was asserting to (someone senior, can't remember meaningless job titles) that I was "not really a developer yet," and he told me off - "you sit at a desk and do developer-y things all day!" At that point, I got over the label, and when I left 2.5 years later I noticed I had put "developer" on my twitter profile - clearly my brain had accepted it by then!

will_brown 14y ago

What caught my attention in the article is the friend who always says, she is "learning to code" and people look down on her. This reminds me of the legal profession - when someone asks what a lawyer does, they should not respond with their title, I am a lawyer or attorney, rather explain that "they practice law". What does the HN community think about that? Would you respond to career questions by answering, "I practice computer coding"? As a non-tech it sounds professional and badass.

Mz 14y ago

I don't know if men have an easier time or not. But I am female and inherently am untrusting of most praise that comes from men. It usually comes across as a blatant pat on the head of a sort they wouldn't likely do to a man, which strikes me as belittling. Because it is delivered differently from what seems to be the norm between two men, it strikes me as either a form of tokenism/pity or makes me wonder if the real intent is to butter me up because he is attracted. Both are big problems, not any kind of leg up or meaningful assurance that I am perceived as competent. It is relatively rare for me to get backing of a sort which suggests to me that it is based on genuine esteem for my ability. Edit: My point is I can see that being a source of self doubt which men might experience less of in a male dominant environment. So I can see this being tough to overcome for a woman surrounded by men. (Not that I view myself as a woman in tech. I run a few websites. I do some freelance writing. I know a smidgeon of html and css. I have a certificate in GIS. But I am a former homemaker who paid insurance claims for about five years. My self image is not "woman in tech." I really do not know what professional label would currently fit me. It is quite irksome at times, though I suppose there is no need to drone on further about that detail.)

tanglisha 14y ago
I've experienced something similar to what you describe. There are times when I am new to a group, that I will be constantly told how very valuable to the group I am, how awesome I am, how happy they are to have me, etc; often before I've been in the office for an hour or written a line of code. After this sort of thing, I tend to be suspicious of praise from that group of people. Do they actually mean it? Did they even look at my code?
- Mz 14y ago
  I have written a few blog posts about that sort of social dynamic. Some of them have gotten a tiny amount of attention on hn. I also had some interesting experiences in GIS school, which was 70% male. My male teachers seemed to have a little trouble with a woman being the strongest math person in the class. In one case, the professor asked me so often "how do you know that?" that a male student blurted in exasperation "she's obviously already worked it out in her head!" In another case, different professor, he bet me "lunch" that he was right and I was wrong. When he had to pay up, he thanked me for not letting him confuse the class. (He quietly gave me a twenty. I think he didn't want to eat lunch with a female student for fear it would look like a date.)

cupcake-unicorn 14y ago

I'm a female developer, and I fought this my whole career. It is real. I even bought several books on it, which are mostly outdated. It used to happen more in fields like law/medicine. I don't think I ever experienced outright sexism, but the group dynamic of all males often had to try adapt to be less abrupt/rude/direct, which was difficult for me to manage. And if you're going to post that I should have been the one adapting (and I was, in every way) - you don't get this post. It frustrates me to see many males posting here that this "doesn't exist". It's something you can't see or experience until you've been through it.

sakopov 14y ago

What Impostor Syndrome? We're talking about a CS freshman interviewing for their first internship. Be happy that your first internship interview had any challenging technical questions at all and stop belittling yourself. Heck, when i was a CS major in school, internships didn't even kick in until 3rd year. This has nothing to do with gender. As the top commenter says, it has everything to do with growing up.

slurgfest 14y ago

Something neglected in this discussion is the role of hostile interactions from others in this field. Impostor syndrome is not always something with a strictly internal origin. If people are dominating you and making you feel bad, and you become submissive, that is a pattern as old as primates and it shouldn't surprise us when it happens also when you are working with people who are extremely concerned with proving they or their clique are better than others. Which is super common in CS and a large part of why many women have a bad experience.