10 ms·

The Serenity of a 5pm Bedtime

237 points by ngokevin 14y ago

t0 14y ago
I've also been doing this for the past few months. Only difference is I have to get 10-12 hours for some reason. So it turns out to be either 12pm-12am, 3pm-3am or 5pm-5am. All of which are great. I think the greatest merit of doing this is not being tired when you start your day. When you wake up at 8am and go to class or work at 9am, your brain just hasn't had enough time to wake up. I've failed many exams for this reason. Now when I take my exam, I've already been up 8 hours and I even get all that extra time to study.
- wuest 14y ago
  This is true! It also helps the work(/school?)day go by much quicker, since the first half isn't dragging due to grogginess and the second half isn't suffering from the poor mood the dragging first half generated.
mtkd 14y ago
Quite coincidentally - I've just come back from the butchers, who shared with me his opinion that 3am was the optimal time to wake up and 'get stuff done before people start getting in the way'.
- personlurking 14y ago
  When I have too much on my mind and I wake up around 3 or 4am (and don't go back to bed), I realize it's awesome to have that extra time before the day starts. However, when I've done jobs where I must get up at 5am, I almost need to be forced out of bed. I've got an uncle who, for over a decade, has woken up at 3am, though he doesn't go to bed until 10pm. It makes me wonder if just doing it makes one better at it since we're talking about something we've done our whole lives. My personal sleep pattern (12-7/7:30) hasn't changed since the early 90s.
- joonix 14y ago
  Unless you are able to exist on < 8 hrs of sleep, how is this practical? Sleeping at 7PM every day?
onemorepassword 14y ago
There is a serious disconnect if you suggest that there is very little distracting content being generated and at the same time note that your day starts at the same time as your coworkers in the UK. But then again the whole thing suggests total isolation from anything other then work and study, with the alternative rhythm just being a way of making that easier. This is a story about someone socially isolating themselves, the 5pm bedtime thing might just as well be "living on the north pole".
- ngokevin 14y ago
  With school and two part-times, I had not much purely social time reserved during weekdays, sleep schedule aside. The experimental sleep schedule is temporary until I finish school. But given the fickle nature of sleep schedules, this will not likely last that long regardless. But for now, I don't mind it!
  - thoughtcriminal 14y ago
    I admire what you're doing, and the post was well written btw. Continue to follow your own rules, most great people in history do. And if ever you feel like you need to tweak your social life, you'll know what to do.
    - ngokevin 14y ago
      Thanks for the encouragement! And yes, it might need a tweak :)
wuest 14y ago
At work I'm known for having a weird sleep schedule (usually 18:00-02:00, though circumstance can push that out occasionally). I've similarly found that my days tend to be more relaxing and more productive since adopting this schedule. I suspect that the value of this schedule is inversely proportionate to the number of those who adopt it.
aw3c2 14y ago
That would throw me into deep depression from loneliness since my social activities outside work are in the evenings (since that is when other people do that kind of thing).
- TheBoff 14y ago
  Yeah, whilst he mentions work and school, there's nowhere to just be social with people in that schedule. What do you do if you want to go to the cinema or the theatre, or just the pub?
hdra 14y ago
isn't it lonely? i tried similar schedule, even though not intentionally few years ago, and i find it hard to find time to catch up with friends,
- ngokevin 14y ago
  Yes, it can be. But with school and work, I have the same amount of social time as I did before. It is not too bad as much of my social network are classmates and coworkers. I have been doing it for a week so far, but I expect on dropping it once I graduate and once time frees up.
  - cevaris 14y ago
    I would have to agree. Most of my social activities are with my classmates and coworkers, all between 10am-5pm. I code better after a good nights rest. Totally going to give this a shot.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
AlexDanger 14y ago
I always considered myself a night owl. I'd stay up until 2-3am for the night time serenity. My partner and others disapproved and considered it unhealthy. Now I wake around 3-4 am and get the same night time serenity. But the perception of this patten is different. I'm considered an early riser - disciplined and driven. I've noticed my concentration is much better under the new early rising regime. Here's my schedule: - 4 am. Wake up. Depending on my mood and deadlines I'll either jump straight into work or take some leisure time surfing the web. - 5 am. Dog wakes up and makes it clear that we're going for a walk. So we go to the park and play. The park is empty at this early hour so its good for training. - 7am. If I havent done so already I start work to coincide with my team on the other side of the country. - 3pm. Start winding down. Have a beer. - 5pm. Parter comes home from work and we go to the park with the dog. Lots of dogs at this time and its great fun for all. - 7pm. Dinner. - 8pm. Bed. - 4am. Wake. Does my social life suffer? Well i've found that its a case of diminishing returns. I used to be the guy who partied until 3am. Now I party until 10pm. And I've discovered I'm having just as much fun. It would seem socialising is a case of diminishing returns for me. I also avoid the shattering hangover.
- ngokevin 14y ago
  Hm, if I just get a dog, the social weakness in the schedule is solved! Walking the dog at 5am in the park sounds really peaceful. 8pm-4am sounds a lot better. Shifting my schedule later a few hours would be a good compromise. I still get up early, but I don't sacrifice that evening.
  - loopdoend 14y ago
    I tried getting a dog to solve the same issue. It did not work out so well. If you can put up with all the whining, barking, vet visits, 3 months of basically chasing around a pooping, peeing toddler, then go for it. It is not as simple as being the "pack leader". Getting a dog is likely not going to solve your problems and you should fully investigate the myriad negative consequences of getting a dog, including robbing you of your freedom. Also, if you don't live in a house where the dog has free access to a backyard I strongly recommend against it. Your are going to need to socialize it as a puppy. Going out on walks at 5 am does not sound like a good socialization opportunity. And what is the dog going to do while you're at school?
dfc 14y ago
Dec-Feb is the only time that the sun sets at 5pm. I think this schedule would be next to impossible for me Mar-Nov when it is still light out well past 5pm. The lack of social interaction would make it terroibly hard Dec-Feb.
- ngokevin 14y ago
  I agree, it would become difficult to maintain this schedule as days become longer, and the lack of social interaction is a glaring flaw. Maybe it'd be better for someone that lived in Alaska.
fxthea 14y ago
I've done this once and I think it's a pretty good idea especially if you work a 9 to 5 and are moonlighting. The most productive hours of the day (the hours that you have the most energy because you just woke up) are yours and then the hours that you are more tired are for your 9 to 5.
dfc 14y ago
Its also worth noting that after college a 5pm bedtime is going to put a serious damper on your sex life.
- rgbrgb 14y ago
  And, presumably, in college.
  - dfc 14y ago
    Presumably? "An undergraduate computer science student at Oregon State University"[1] [1] http://ngokevin.com/about/ http://ngokevin.com/about/
- graue 14y ago
  That seems like a silly generalization. Surely it depends who your partner happens to be and what schedule they follow.
  - dfc 14y ago
    To be honest my generalization has less to do with schedules/who your partner is and more to do with the supply of partners. I think that (in the US at least) in college sex is less dependent on one partner compared to later in life. I read your profile and appreciate the sentiment re: votes. I am not trying to be crude. Within this context this is my best effort at a thoughtful response.
    - graue 14y ago
      Y'know, maybe I'm off base, but my perception is that for people not in a committed relationship, college sex was basically like this: 1. Go to party 2. Get wasted 3. ???? 4. Wake up hungover: "What, I'm really in bed with this person? WTF, how did that happen?" Anyone disciplined enough to maintain an unconventional sleep schedule, probably isn't doing that to begin with. And doesn't it fall under the general "lack of social interaction" complaint? But I don't know if this is a particularly productive line of discussion. I'm only here because there were no posts about Haskell on the front page. :)
dave1619 14y ago
I would imagine one of the weaknesses of this kind of schedule is the variations that occur when you have an evening function that you just need to go to, ie., birthday party of your best friend. And what happens when you have a few evening functions you need to go to in a week? I would imagine that would mess up one's rhythm. Sure, you could try to get back to your schedule with diligence and effort, but I can't imagine it's that simple. Over time, that might become draining. But it seems like you get so much stuff done from midnight to 8am, maybe it's worth skipping the evening functions altogether or if you need to go just re-adjusting to your schedule (even being a bit groggy) because of the huge productivity gains you're seeing. One of the interesting things from the blog post was how it's easier to concentrate when the Internet slows down. I find that 9am to 5pm on weekdays there's just so much content being published everywhere, and so much of that content is interesting, that I find myself easily distracted during the day. I've had to hack my own system of focused goals, pomodoro work sessions, and other homemade hacks to get the productivity I need during the day. So, I can totally see how someone can get tons of stuff done during the middle of the night while everyone else is sleeping. Btw, Kevin - how long have you been doing this schedule?
- ngokevin 14y ago
  I agree, this sleep schedule is not very sustainable due to can't-miss evening functions. But it is working out very well for me for now because it is late in my school quarter. I spend a lot of time studying and working, and I haven't had any things come up during the evening. Since I'm in school, my rhythm gets messed up easily regardless. Another productivity hack, I use LeechBlock during the day so I limit my Internet breaks. I find myself compulsively visiting distracting websites. There's self-control, but why not delegate it to the browser. I have only been doing it for a week and continue to keep it up for at least the next week. I think I plan on tweaking it towards something slightly more normal, like 8pm-4am.
  - dave1619 14y ago
    I was also thinking it might be difficult to keep up a 5pm sleep time during the summer months when the sun sets later. But if you had a sound-proof bedroom that was pitch dark (some crazy shades that blocked all light), then I would imagine that would help a lot. An 8pm-4am sleep time sounds more manageable... although the 5pm-midnight sleep schedule is such a talking point. :)
jeggers5 14y ago
I'm uncertain of why anybody would do this to their life. You lay out some advantages: 1) The rest of the internet is "asleep", there's not much content being generated and so you are less distracted. 2) You get the gym to yourself. 3) No alarm clock Admittedly, all three are good things. But, I'm uncertain if it's a good trade off. I mean, I'd go crazy if I did what you do on a daily basis. For one, going to sleep at 5pm would completely cut me off from any after-work/school social aspect of my life. It just seems silly to do that just for the ability to make it easier for yourself to work at night. I for one, find it much better to just not mess around on HN/Facebook all day and just do what I have to do (use SelfControl). Just do it. My gym is very empty early, at about 8am, infact thinging about it now, your sleep timetable doesn't help you have an empty gym. Most people get up that early anyway for work. I just don't get why you need to change your sleeping habits to something so backward that cuts you off from so many of the social aspects of life that aren't mingled in with work/school. Not having to use an alarm clock, though, is good.
- nwh 14y ago
  > The rest of the internet is "asleep", there's not much content being generated and so you are less distracted. Thanks to the zones, that never happens.
  - Fargren 14y ago
    This happens because there are time zones that are significantly more active than others on the parts of the internet one tends to use. Sure, there's content being uploaded when it's 10:00 in Japan or China, but except for what's coming from Australia (not really much), I'm unlikely to be browsing any of that.
taylorbuley 14y ago
For the very productive, I think there's a tendency to think oneself exempt from the rules of sleep. But only for "a small group of people—perhaps just 1% to 3% of the population" is sleep a waste of time according to researchers. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703712504576242701752957910.html http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405274870371250457624...
AndrewKemendo 14y ago
The author mentions it at the end but this schedule is really only good for the asocial. I submit that unless you truly have a aversion to social interaction, it will get lonely. I know this because I used to work night shifts and pretty much had this schedule. You end up losing the period of socialization which is typically 4-10PM, where people go to dance classes, have dinners with friends, go get drinks etc... and things feel lonely.
- javascripter9 14y ago
  I think it works for maker's who take a long term view of returns on social investments. Sacrificing friends of a certain quality today in order to put in the work it takes to make friends with the people one admires, but doesn't currently know, and whom can raise their stock in life, so to speak, has a higher relative return than being present with his college bar crowd. I'm not suggesting friendship should be a business move only, but that one doesn't miss out on all that much by forgoing the maintenance of superficial connections in the present to focus on their goals. Of course not all college age friendships are superficial, and some can last throughout life, but these are the minority, whereas the majority are much more ephemeral.
  - lukehorvat 14y ago
    Hilarious.
biafra 14y ago
At least in Berlin, you would have no problem on weekends to find a party between 1am and 5pm. :-)
joshualastdon 14y ago
For a long time, I used to have a "night owl" schedule and I thought I was very productive until I switched to 12am-5:30am sleep schedule. I sleep at most 1-1:30am, but if I ever stay awake past 2:30am, I don't go to sleep anynmore. I also take a 15 minute nap during the day at about 3pm, after which if I would be very refreshed for the rest of the day. I think the early-to-rise sleep pattern is very productive and best even for some people that consider themselves night owls now. Most times, a lot of people think they are night owls from their late night sleep schedule from their teenage years. There are some exceptions, however.
dysoco 14y ago
Sounds interesting, I love the night: however my problem is that I have school from 7am to 5pm , which is kind of the full day for me.
jh3 14y ago
Why would you want to have this kind of schedule while you're in school?
f1codz 14y ago
The best part i like about your schedule is resting immediately after a full days work. This gap (of rest) between your work day and the time you aside for yourself to do some parttime learning/work is very appealing.
umjames 14y ago
I came up with the same idea a while ago, except I would fit dinner in either after work/before bed or after waking up/before the day job. I never got to try it out though, because when you live with others who are on a regular sleep schedule, there will be plenty of conflicts. I'm still itching to try this if/when I ever get my own place. It's basically a normal day with the sleep and personal time portions swapped. It's easy to come up with the idea since it's the only flexibility possible when your work time is non-adjustable.
bliker 14y ago
when do you eat dinner?
- ngokevin 14y ago
  Probably in the afternoon.
logn 14y ago
I tend to sleep from 5am - 10am and take a 3 hour nap during the day, say 1pm - 4pm. It's a bit degenerate but I work from home and can do this. The advantages are I fulfill all my night-owl hacking needs and have a good social life. And I can make any morning meetings by adjusting my first sleep to 4am - 8am. Apparently before the invention of the light bulb, most people divided their sleep into two sections. The details are sketchy but there's widespread reference of "second sleep" throughout history. I think it was the sort of thing they went to bed at 9pm - 1am and then 4am - 8am.
- AlexDanger 14y ago
  I wasnt aware of this 'second sleep' phenomenon. Sort of a reverse siesta?
  - logn 14y ago
    It basically is the siesta model. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Segmented_sleep http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Segmented_sleep
shalmanese 14y ago
My most productive period was when I was waking up at 8pm, grabbing dinner and drinks with friends from 9pm to midnight (I would drink water), hacking at the lab from 12:30am to 8:30am, run errands from 8:30 to 10 and then sleep from 10am to 8pm.
- jthol 14y ago
  This worked pretty well for me in my final year of school when the only time the lab was open for our project was midnight to 8am. Weird having an end of the day beer at 10:30 in the morning though :)
theologic 14y ago
While many comments bring up the anti-social aspects, I think it interesting to use the thread to think about one of the biggest, and often overlooked personal productivity attributes: making sure that your body gets a good dose of sleep every day. Good sleep means better cognitive behavior, less accidents, lower bodyfat, lower inflammation, and many other benefits. Sleep has a long list of very positive effects, and I might suggest reading Coren's "The Sleep Thieves" to get a full idea of this. One of the central cores of getting a good night's sleep is "sleep hygiene," which includes having a regular schedule. In other words, get to a schedule and stick to it. Also, exposure to light seems to keep the schedule synced. As many have written, 5pm hardly seems to be reinforcing of the above points.
- AlexDanger 14y ago
  I couldnt agree more. Dont hesitate to see a doctor if you think your sleep is low quality. There are a number of non-obvious medical issues that can impact your sleep. I'm not talking about getting a prescription for sleeping tablets. Personally they make me feel like shit when I wake up.
tobeportable 14y ago
I did this same thing for the exams of my last year only. Had I known before .... Here's the pattern : while exams{ 0. Study 1. Go to the exam 2. succeed 3. Come back, get fresh a go to sleep [... idle ... forget everything ... reboot ...] 4. Wake up, get fresh & back to 0. for next exam } Here's some advantages : - when you wake up you actually have plenty of time till the exam - you don't have to calculate how much sleep you will get or when to squeeze it - your going to arrive fresh at the exam and not fall asleep on your sheet-keyboard
- eertami 14y ago
  I switch to this pretty much every exam period, mostly because I hate doing anything when I've only just woken up, nevermind take an exam. The rest of the year however, there are far too many things to do between 5pm-1am that make this viable. Instead I flip it and go for the 5am-1pm which I think works well as a University student.
hakaaaaak 14y ago
Sleeping from 5-midnight is taking the "early to bed, early to rise" thing a little too seriously. Napoleon woke at 4am each morning to get the jump on everyone else, but that didn't help him in the end. I think that the most natural thing is to (1) sleep when it gets dark and wake when it's light, and (2) not live to close to the parts of the world where that doesn't work because of the length of days and nights.
networked 14y ago
A few select previous stories on sleep: – Good sleep, good learning, good life -- https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5244619 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5244619 – How Little Sleep Can You Get Away With? -- https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2548665 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2548665 – How to Naturally Reset Your Sleep Cycle In One Night -- https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=739213 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=739213 – Sleep Deficit: The Performance Killer -- https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3367789 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3367789 – Why Entrepreneurs Can't Sleep -- https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3017740 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3017740 – Small areas of the brain go to sleep when we're up too late -- https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2491603 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2491603 – The importance of sleep in a startup -- https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3556102 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3556102 – Poll: How much sleep do you get per night? -- https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3479410 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3479410 – The myth of the eight-hour sleep -- https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3620742 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3620742 Wikipedia articles I'd recommend reading: – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circadian_rhythm_sleep_disorder https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circadian_rhythm_sleep_disorde... – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-24-hour_sleep-wake_disorder https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-24-hour_sleep-wake_disorde...
n3rdy 14y ago
It looks like you didn't get the memo. Those of us who embrace this magical nocturnal world don't praise it to the day walkers. It gives them the terrible idea that it may be good for them to try. If this pattern were to continue, our reign over the darkness would surely end. Do be more careful in the future. Thanks.
- InformalRelief 14y ago
  Night gathers, and now my watch begins
jspiros 14y ago
I experimented with this exact sleep schedule when I went from working entirely remotely for 8 years to working in an office for a year and a half. I found that physically going to an office would exhaust me anyway to the point that I couldn't accomplish much after coming home, so this schedule was great for optimizing the time where I'd be most productive anyway, and putting me to sleep when I'd otherwise be useless anyway. I'm introverted enough that the social interaction I had at the office was sufficient for the day, so I wouldn't be going out afterwards anyway. I'm also a night-owl and find myself much more productive at night.
rexreed 14y ago
I like this schedule as well. Benjamin Franklin is well-quoted as saying "early to bed, early to rise, makes a man healthy, wealthy, and wise". In particular, the 1am to 8am work cycle can be highly productive since email and other distractions are generally quiet then.
- qu4z-2 14y ago
  I believe the counter to that quote is "Early to rise and early to bed makes a man healthy but socially dead."
rco8786 14y ago
This is cool as long as you have no friends or social calendar?
mcartyem 14y ago
What the author does is something people used to do in the past. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Segmented_sleep http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Segmented_sleep http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/feb/24/sleep-twice-a-night-anxiety http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/feb/24/sleep-tw...
yoos 14y ago
I've noticed the same kind of distraction-free productivity in the wee hours and thought about starting my day at midnight, but usually I have a hard time taking my hands off whatever task is on hand. Consequently, I am usually a night owl who wakes up nearly at noon (I'm a student, as well), and when I actually need to be somewhere in the morning, I power through with a few bags of black tea. I admit the 5pm bedtime schedule is a lot healthier and syncs with the 9-to-5 work schedule nicely, though.
javascripter9 14y ago
This was my schedule too, but it kept shifting 1 hour forward until it circled back to a normal 10pm-6am schedule, though my partner did appreciate not having to listen to my laptop's abnormally loud mouse button's clicking sound all night.
philco 14y ago
Upvoted for the title. Reading the post now.
jrockway 14y ago
I wish I could work a 7 hour day and magically be in my bed 0 seconds after it ended.
mistermcgruff 14y ago
Having three young boys, all this discussion is rendered meaningless. I wake when they jump on my face.
cpsales 14y ago
As living in your next door - Stop right now and stop that noise during the nights! everyone hates you
Wump 14y ago
This sounds isolating, and you'll lose a few hours of sunlight in spring/summer months. To quote Seinfeld: Serenity now, insanity later.
namuol 14y ago
This is great if you're happy to forego all social activity outside professional/academic endeavors...
jmt7les 14y ago
Everything here revolves around the sun, literally. If you're depriving yourself of the natural energy you naturally attempt to get I can only imagine you'll have to turn to artificial energy eventually (a lot of it). Just seems too unnatural to me to fight what your body was made to do.

237 points by ngokevin 14y ago

t0 14y ago

I've also been doing this for the past few months. Only difference is I have to get 10-12 hours for some reason. So it turns out to be either 12pm-12am, 3pm-3am or 5pm-5am. All of which are great. I think the greatest merit of doing this is not being tired when you start your day. When you wake up at 8am and go to class or work at 9am, your brain just hasn't had enough time to wake up. I've failed many exams for this reason. Now when I take my exam, I've already been up 8 hours and I even get all that extra time to study.

wuest 14y ago
This is true! It also helps the work(/school?)day go by much quicker, since the first half isn't dragging due to grogginess and the second half isn't suffering from the poor mood the dragging first half generated.

mtkd 14y ago

Quite coincidentally - I've just come back from the butchers, who shared with me his opinion that 3am was the optimal time to wake up and 'get stuff done before people start getting in the way'.

personlurking 14y ago
When I have too much on my mind and I wake up around 3 or 4am (and don't go back to bed), I realize it's awesome to have that extra time before the day starts. However, when I've done jobs where I must get up at 5am, I almost need to be forced out of bed. I've got an uncle who, for over a decade, has woken up at 3am, though he doesn't go to bed until 10pm. It makes me wonder if just doing it makes one better at it since we're talking about something we've done our whole lives. My personal sleep pattern (12-7/7:30) hasn't changed since the early 90s.
joonix 14y ago
Unless you are able to exist on < 8 hrs of sleep, how is this practical? Sleeping at 7PM every day?

onemorepassword 14y ago

There is a serious disconnect if you suggest that there is very little distracting content being generated and at the same time note that your day starts at the same time as your coworkers in the UK. But then again the whole thing suggests total isolation from anything other then work and study, with the alternative rhythm just being a way of making that easier. This is a story about someone socially isolating themselves, the 5pm bedtime thing might just as well be "living on the north pole".

ngokevin 14y ago
With school and two part-times, I had not much purely social time reserved during weekdays, sleep schedule aside. The experimental sleep schedule is temporary until I finish school. But given the fickle nature of sleep schedules, this will not likely last that long regardless. But for now, I don't mind it!
- thoughtcriminal 14y ago
  I admire what you're doing, and the post was well written btw. Continue to follow your own rules, most great people in history do. And if ever you feel like you need to tweak your social life, you'll know what to do.
  - ngokevin 14y ago
    Thanks for the encouragement! And yes, it might need a tweak :)

wuest 14y ago

At work I'm known for having a weird sleep schedule (usually 18:00-02:00, though circumstance can push that out occasionally). I've similarly found that my days tend to be more relaxing and more productive since adopting this schedule. I suspect that the value of this schedule is inversely proportionate to the number of those who adopt it.

aw3c2 14y ago

That would throw me into deep depression from loneliness since my social activities outside work are in the evenings (since that is when other people do that kind of thing).

TheBoff 14y ago
Yeah, whilst he mentions work and school, there's nowhere to just be social with people in that schedule. What do you do if you want to go to the cinema or the theatre, or just the pub?

hdra 14y ago

isn't it lonely? i tried similar schedule, even though not intentionally few years ago, and i find it hard to find time to catch up with friends,

ngokevin 14y ago
Yes, it can be. But with school and work, I have the same amount of social time as I did before. It is not too bad as much of my social network are classmates and coworkers. I have been doing it for a week so far, but I expect on dropping it once I graduate and once time frees up.
- cevaris 14y ago
  I would have to agree. Most of my social activities are with my classmates and coworkers, all between 10am-5pm. I code better after a good nights rest. Totally going to give this a shot.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]

AlexDanger 14y ago

I always considered myself a night owl. I'd stay up until 2-3am for the night time serenity. My partner and others disapproved and considered it unhealthy. Now I wake around 3-4 am and get the same night time serenity. But the perception of this patten is different. I'm considered an early riser - disciplined and driven. I've noticed my concentration is much better under the new early rising regime. Here's my schedule: - 4 am. Wake up. Depending on my mood and deadlines I'll either jump straight into work or take some leisure time surfing the web. - 5 am. Dog wakes up and makes it clear that we're going for a walk. So we go to the park and play. The park is empty at this early hour so its good for training. - 7am. If I havent done so already I start work to coincide with my team on the other side of the country. - 3pm. Start winding down. Have a beer. - 5pm. Parter comes home from work and we go to the park with the dog. Lots of dogs at this time and its great fun for all. - 7pm. Dinner. - 8pm. Bed. - 4am. Wake. Does my social life suffer? Well i've found that its a case of diminishing returns. I used to be the guy who partied until 3am. Now I party until 10pm. And I've discovered I'm having just as much fun. It would seem socialising is a case of diminishing returns for me. I also avoid the shattering hangover.

ngokevin 14y ago
Hm, if I just get a dog, the social weakness in the schedule is solved! Walking the dog at 5am in the park sounds really peaceful. 8pm-4am sounds a lot better. Shifting my schedule later a few hours would be a good compromise. I still get up early, but I don't sacrifice that evening.
- loopdoend 14y ago
  I tried getting a dog to solve the same issue. It did not work out so well. If you can put up with all the whining, barking, vet visits, 3 months of basically chasing around a pooping, peeing toddler, then go for it. It is not as simple as being the "pack leader". Getting a dog is likely not going to solve your problems and you should fully investigate the myriad negative consequences of getting a dog, including robbing you of your freedom. Also, if you don't live in a house where the dog has free access to a backyard I strongly recommend against it. Your are going to need to socialize it as a puppy. Going out on walks at 5 am does not sound like a good socialization opportunity. And what is the dog going to do while you're at school?

dfc 14y ago

Dec-Feb is the only time that the sun sets at 5pm. I think this schedule would be next to impossible for me Mar-Nov when it is still light out well past 5pm. The lack of social interaction would make it terroibly hard Dec-Feb.

ngokevin 14y ago
I agree, it would become difficult to maintain this schedule as days become longer, and the lack of social interaction is a glaring flaw. Maybe it'd be better for someone that lived in Alaska.

fxthea 14y ago

I've done this once and I think it's a pretty good idea especially if you work a 9 to 5 and are moonlighting. The most productive hours of the day (the hours that you have the most energy because you just woke up) are yours and then the hours that you are more tired are for your 9 to 5.

dfc 14y ago

Its also worth noting that after college a 5pm bedtime is going to put a serious damper on your sex life.

rgbrgb 14y ago
And, presumably, in college.
- dfc 14y ago
  Presumably? "An undergraduate computer science student at Oregon State University"[1] [1] http://ngokevin.com/about/ http://ngokevin.com/about/
graue 14y ago
That seems like a silly generalization. Surely it depends who your partner happens to be and what schedule they follow.
- dfc 14y ago
  To be honest my generalization has less to do with schedules/who your partner is and more to do with the supply of partners. I think that (in the US at least) in college sex is less dependent on one partner compared to later in life. I read your profile and appreciate the sentiment re: votes. I am not trying to be crude. Within this context this is my best effort at a thoughtful response.
  - graue 14y ago
    Y'know, maybe I'm off base, but my perception is that for people not in a committed relationship, college sex was basically like this: 1. Go to party 2. Get wasted 3. ???? 4. Wake up hungover: "What, I'm really in bed with this person? WTF, how did that happen?" Anyone disciplined enough to maintain an unconventional sleep schedule, probably isn't doing that to begin with. And doesn't it fall under the general "lack of social interaction" complaint? But I don't know if this is a particularly productive line of discussion. I'm only here because there were no posts about Haskell on the front page. :)

dave1619 14y ago

I would imagine one of the weaknesses of this kind of schedule is the variations that occur when you have an evening function that you just need to go to, ie., birthday party of your best friend. And what happens when you have a few evening functions you need to go to in a week? I would imagine that would mess up one's rhythm. Sure, you could try to get back to your schedule with diligence and effort, but I can't imagine it's that simple. Over time, that might become draining. But it seems like you get so much stuff done from midnight to 8am, maybe it's worth skipping the evening functions altogether or if you need to go just re-adjusting to your schedule (even being a bit groggy) because of the huge productivity gains you're seeing. One of the interesting things from the blog post was how it's easier to concentrate when the Internet slows down. I find that 9am to 5pm on weekdays there's just so much content being published everywhere, and so much of that content is interesting, that I find myself easily distracted during the day. I've had to hack my own system of focused goals, pomodoro work sessions, and other homemade hacks to get the productivity I need during the day. So, I can totally see how someone can get tons of stuff done during the middle of the night while everyone else is sleeping. Btw, Kevin - how long have you been doing this schedule?

ngokevin 14y ago
I agree, this sleep schedule is not very sustainable due to can't-miss evening functions. But it is working out very well for me for now because it is late in my school quarter. I spend a lot of time studying and working, and I haven't had any things come up during the evening. Since I'm in school, my rhythm gets messed up easily regardless. Another productivity hack, I use LeechBlock during the day so I limit my Internet breaks. I find myself compulsively visiting distracting websites. There's self-control, but why not delegate it to the browser. I have only been doing it for a week and continue to keep it up for at least the next week. I think I plan on tweaking it towards something slightly more normal, like 8pm-4am.
- dave1619 14y ago
  I was also thinking it might be difficult to keep up a 5pm sleep time during the summer months when the sun sets later. But if you had a sound-proof bedroom that was pitch dark (some crazy shades that blocked all light), then I would imagine that would help a lot. An 8pm-4am sleep time sounds more manageable... although the 5pm-midnight sleep schedule is such a talking point. :)

jeggers5 14y ago

I'm uncertain of why anybody would do this to their life. You lay out some advantages: 1) The rest of the internet is "asleep", there's not much content being generated and so you are less distracted. 2) You get the gym to yourself. 3) No alarm clock Admittedly, all three are good things. But, I'm uncertain if it's a good trade off. I mean, I'd go crazy if I did what you do on a daily basis. For one, going to sleep at 5pm would completely cut me off from any after-work/school social aspect of my life. It just seems silly to do that just for the ability to make it easier for yourself to work at night. I for one, find it much better to just not mess around on HN/Facebook all day and just do what I have to do (use SelfControl). Just do it. My gym is very empty early, at about 8am, infact thinging about it now, your sleep timetable doesn't help you have an empty gym. Most people get up that early anyway for work. I just don't get why you need to change your sleeping habits to something so backward that cuts you off from so many of the social aspects of life that aren't mingled in with work/school. Not having to use an alarm clock, though, is good.

nwh 14y ago
> The rest of the internet is "asleep", there's not much content being generated and so you are less distracted. Thanks to the zones, that never happens.
- Fargren 14y ago
  This happens because there are time zones that are significantly more active than others on the parts of the internet one tends to use. Sure, there's content being uploaded when it's 10:00 in Japan or China, but except for what's coming from Australia (not really much), I'm unlikely to be browsing any of that.

taylorbuley 14y ago

For the very productive, I think there's a tendency to think oneself exempt from the rules of sleep. But only for "a small group of people—perhaps just 1% to 3% of the population" is sleep a waste of time according to researchers. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703712504576242701752957910.html http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405274870371250457624...

AndrewKemendo 14y ago

The author mentions it at the end but this schedule is really only good for the asocial. I submit that unless you truly have a aversion to social interaction, it will get lonely. I know this because I used to work night shifts and pretty much had this schedule. You end up losing the period of socialization which is typically 4-10PM, where people go to dance classes, have dinners with friends, go get drinks etc... and things feel lonely.

javascripter9 14y ago
I think it works for maker's who take a long term view of returns on social investments. Sacrificing friends of a certain quality today in order to put in the work it takes to make friends with the people one admires, but doesn't currently know, and whom can raise their stock in life, so to speak, has a higher relative return than being present with his college bar crowd. I'm not suggesting friendship should be a business move only, but that one doesn't miss out on all that much by forgoing the maintenance of superficial connections in the present to focus on their goals. Of course not all college age friendships are superficial, and some can last throughout life, but these are the minority, whereas the majority are much more ephemeral.
- lukehorvat 14y ago
  Hilarious.

biafra 14y ago

At least in Berlin, you would have no problem on weekends to find a party between 1am and 5pm. :-)

joshualastdon 14y ago

For a long time, I used to have a "night owl" schedule and I thought I was very productive until I switched to 12am-5:30am sleep schedule. I sleep at most 1-1:30am, but if I ever stay awake past 2:30am, I don't go to sleep anynmore. I also take a 15 minute nap during the day at about 3pm, after which if I would be very refreshed for the rest of the day. I think the early-to-rise sleep pattern is very productive and best even for some people that consider themselves night owls now. Most times, a lot of people think they are night owls from their late night sleep schedule from their teenage years. There are some exceptions, however.

dysoco 14y ago

Sounds interesting, I love the night: however my problem is that I have school from 7am to 5pm , which is kind of the full day for me.

jh3 14y ago

Why would you want to have this kind of schedule while you're in school?

f1codz 14y ago

The best part i like about your schedule is resting immediately after a full days work. This gap (of rest) between your work day and the time you aside for yourself to do some parttime learning/work is very appealing.

umjames 14y ago

I came up with the same idea a while ago, except I would fit dinner in either after work/before bed or after waking up/before the day job. I never got to try it out though, because when you live with others who are on a regular sleep schedule, there will be plenty of conflicts. I'm still itching to try this if/when I ever get my own place. It's basically a normal day with the sleep and personal time portions swapped. It's easy to come up with the idea since it's the only flexibility possible when your work time is non-adjustable.

bliker 14y ago

when do you eat dinner?

ngokevin 14y ago
Probably in the afternoon.

logn 14y ago

I tend to sleep from 5am - 10am and take a 3 hour nap during the day, say 1pm - 4pm. It's a bit degenerate but I work from home and can do this. The advantages are I fulfill all my night-owl hacking needs and have a good social life. And I can make any morning meetings by adjusting my first sleep to 4am - 8am. Apparently before the invention of the light bulb, most people divided their sleep into two sections. The details are sketchy but there's widespread reference of "second sleep" throughout history. I think it was the sort of thing they went to bed at 9pm - 1am and then 4am - 8am.

AlexDanger 14y ago
I wasnt aware of this 'second sleep' phenomenon. Sort of a reverse siesta?
- logn 14y ago
  It basically is the siesta model. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Segmented_sleep http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Segmented_sleep

shalmanese 14y ago

My most productive period was when I was waking up at 8pm, grabbing dinner and drinks with friends from 9pm to midnight (I would drink water), hacking at the lab from 12:30am to 8:30am, run errands from 8:30 to 10 and then sleep from 10am to 8pm.

jthol 14y ago
This worked pretty well for me in my final year of school when the only time the lab was open for our project was midnight to 8am. Weird having an end of the day beer at 10:30 in the morning though :)

theologic 14y ago

While many comments bring up the anti-social aspects, I think it interesting to use the thread to think about one of the biggest, and often overlooked personal productivity attributes: making sure that your body gets a good dose of sleep every day. Good sleep means better cognitive behavior, less accidents, lower bodyfat, lower inflammation, and many other benefits. Sleep has a long list of very positive effects, and I might suggest reading Coren's "The Sleep Thieves" to get a full idea of this. One of the central cores of getting a good night's sleep is "sleep hygiene," which includes having a regular schedule. In other words, get to a schedule and stick to it. Also, exposure to light seems to keep the schedule synced. As many have written, 5pm hardly seems to be reinforcing of the above points.

AlexDanger 14y ago
I couldnt agree more. Dont hesitate to see a doctor if you think your sleep is low quality. There are a number of non-obvious medical issues that can impact your sleep. I'm not talking about getting a prescription for sleeping tablets. Personally they make me feel like shit when I wake up.

tobeportable 14y ago

I did this same thing for the exams of my last year only. Had I known before .... Here's the pattern : while exams{ 0. Study 1. Go to the exam 2. succeed 3. Come back, get fresh a go to sleep [... idle ... forget everything ... reboot ...] 4. Wake up, get fresh & back to 0. for next exam } Here's some advantages : - when you wake up you actually have plenty of time till the exam - you don't have to calculate how much sleep you will get or when to squeeze it - your going to arrive fresh at the exam and not fall asleep on your sheet-keyboard

eertami 14y ago
I switch to this pretty much every exam period, mostly because I hate doing anything when I've only just woken up, nevermind take an exam. The rest of the year however, there are far too many things to do between 5pm-1am that make this viable. Instead I flip it and go for the 5am-1pm which I think works well as a University student.

hakaaaaak 14y ago

Sleeping from 5-midnight is taking the "early to bed, early to rise" thing a little too seriously. Napoleon woke at 4am each morning to get the jump on everyone else, but that didn't help him in the end. I think that the most natural thing is to (1) sleep when it gets dark and wake when it's light, and (2) not live to close to the parts of the world where that doesn't work because of the length of days and nights.

networked 14y ago

A few select previous stories on sleep: – Good sleep, good learning, good life -- https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5244619 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5244619 – How Little Sleep Can You Get Away With? -- https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2548665 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2548665 – How to Naturally Reset Your Sleep Cycle In One Night -- https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=739213 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=739213 – Sleep Deficit: The Performance Killer -- https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3367789 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3367789 – Why Entrepreneurs Can't Sleep -- https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3017740 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3017740 – Small areas of the brain go to sleep when we're up too late -- https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2491603 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2491603 – The importance of sleep in a startup -- https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3556102 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3556102 – Poll: How much sleep do you get per night? -- https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3479410 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3479410 – The myth of the eight-hour sleep -- https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3620742 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3620742 Wikipedia articles I'd recommend reading: – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circadian_rhythm_sleep_disorder https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circadian_rhythm_sleep_disorde... – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-24-hour_sleep-wake_disorder https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-24-hour_sleep-wake_disorde...

n3rdy 14y ago

It looks like you didn't get the memo. Those of us who embrace this magical nocturnal world don't praise it to the day walkers. It gives them the terrible idea that it may be good for them to try. If this pattern were to continue, our reign over the darkness would surely end. Do be more careful in the future. Thanks.

InformalRelief 14y ago
Night gathers, and now my watch begins

jspiros 14y ago

I experimented with this exact sleep schedule when I went from working entirely remotely for 8 years to working in an office for a year and a half. I found that physically going to an office would exhaust me anyway to the point that I couldn't accomplish much after coming home, so this schedule was great for optimizing the time where I'd be most productive anyway, and putting me to sleep when I'd otherwise be useless anyway. I'm introverted enough that the social interaction I had at the office was sufficient for the day, so I wouldn't be going out afterwards anyway. I'm also a night-owl and find myself much more productive at night.

rexreed 14y ago

I like this schedule as well. Benjamin Franklin is well-quoted as saying "early to bed, early to rise, makes a man healthy, wealthy, and wise". In particular, the 1am to 8am work cycle can be highly productive since email and other distractions are generally quiet then.

qu4z-2 14y ago
I believe the counter to that quote is "Early to rise and early to bed makes a man healthy but socially dead."

rco8786 14y ago

This is cool as long as you have no friends or social calendar?

mcartyem 14y ago

What the author does is something people used to do in the past. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Segmented_sleep http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Segmented_sleep http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/feb/24/sleep-twice-a-night-anxiety http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/feb/24/sleep-tw...

yoos 14y ago

I've noticed the same kind of distraction-free productivity in the wee hours and thought about starting my day at midnight, but usually I have a hard time taking my hands off whatever task is on hand. Consequently, I am usually a night owl who wakes up nearly at noon (I'm a student, as well), and when I actually need to be somewhere in the morning, I power through with a few bags of black tea. I admit the 5pm bedtime schedule is a lot healthier and syncs with the 9-to-5 work schedule nicely, though.

javascripter9 14y ago

This was my schedule too, but it kept shifting 1 hour forward until it circled back to a normal 10pm-6am schedule, though my partner did appreciate not having to listen to my laptop's abnormally loud mouse button's clicking sound all night.

philco 14y ago

Upvoted for the title. Reading the post now.

jrockway 14y ago

I wish I could work a 7 hour day and magically be in my bed 0 seconds after it ended.

mistermcgruff 14y ago

Having three young boys, all this discussion is rendered meaningless. I wake when they jump on my face.

cpsales 14y ago

As living in your next door - Stop right now and stop that noise during the nights! everyone hates you

Wump 14y ago

This sounds isolating, and you'll lose a few hours of sunlight in spring/summer months. To quote Seinfeld: Serenity now, insanity later.

namuol 14y ago

This is great if you're happy to forego all social activity outside professional/academic endeavors...

jmt7les 14y ago

Everything here revolves around the sun, literally. If you're depriving yourself of the natural energy you naturally attempt to get I can only imagine you'll have to turn to artificial energy eventually (a lot of it). Just seems too unnatural to me to fight what your body was made to do.