7 ms·

A guy I know was in a similar situation when trying to enter Australia. 20+ years ago, when he was 18, he was arrested for the afternoon because of a student p

by sivers 14y ago

A guy I know was in a similar situation when trying to enter Australia. 20+ years ago, when he was 18, he was arrested for the afternoon because of a student protest. So now on the visa forms, when entering Australia on vacation, he was asked if he had ever been arrested. He checked yes. The border control people in Australia denied him entry, and put him on the next plane back home. When he told the border guy the full situation, the border guy said, "Next time, just check NO." Then, this interesting quote: "You give us the papers we want. We give you the papers you want." Meaning: make the papers (visa forms) look the way we want them to look, and we'll give you the papers (tourist visa) you want. I remember that rule of thumb when crossing borders, or filling out paperwork to open a new bank account in a foreign country. Luckily, I've never had to lie, but it sure helps to make the forms look the way they want them to look, instead of treating them as an opportunity to express your individual quirks.

noarchy 14y ago
Being arrested is way different from having been convicted of a crime, but it seems that border agents across the world don't want this pointed out. I've been asked a similar question often enough at the US-Canadian border("Have you ever been in front of a judge?"). Unfortunately, you do have to treat these encounters like you would police questioning. Don't volunteer information, and give very simple (yes/no) answers if you really need to answer.
justin66 14y ago
This highlights a problem which isn't unique to Australia. For example, if a potential employer (or whoever) asks you if you've ever been arrested and your record has been expunged or you've been pardoned, you are expected to lie and say "no". That is how the system works. It sucks, but learning how to deal with these sorts of things is part of the price one has to pay when they have a run-in with the law. I'm not sure it's analogous to the boat thing. The agent really was wrong to insist on processing the boat with the incorrect information.
- vacri 14y ago
  If the employer wants that information, they can stump for a police background check. My private life is my private life, and there's no way that a checkbox on a form photocopied by the hundreds is going to give a balanced view of any arrest of mine. I have never been arrested, but if the employer actually needs that level of employee security - perhaps handling client money? - then it's the employer's duty to protect themselves with more than a volunteered checkbox.
  - untog 14y ago
    Sure. But a lot of employers have no such security requirements, yet ask anyway.
- melvinmt 14y ago
  I'm wondering, isn't asking for your criminal history during job interviews the same as discriminating based on age or race? I mean, even if you were convicted, you've paid the price by doing your time and after that you should have equal opportunities at a job like anyone else, right? Maybe I'm just too idealistic but I never understood why we hardly give these people a second chance. And then people wonder why recidivism rates are so high.
  - rrreese 14y ago
    If I'm hiring an accountant I probably want to know if they have a history of dishonesty charges. You are free to give such a person a second chance, I'm less keen. I probably don't care if they had some drug charge 20 years ago though. Not sure how that's racist or ageist?
    - barrkel 14y ago
      Because the US justice system disproportionately punishes black crime, and older people are more likely to have had an encounter with the law.
  - nitrogen 14y ago
raintrees 14y ago
Or, just go with the flow. I remember a time I was leaving Boca Raton Florida, heading for Front Royal Virginia (field engineering work). I had a partial bottle of wine in my carry on (way before 9-11) and as I carefully set the bag on the conveyor for the x-ray device, I asked the security attendant if it was okay to have a partial bottle in the bag. She said "What?" in a heavy accent, so I asked again, she said "What?" again, and by this time my bag was at the bottom of the exit ramp of the conveyor. I said "Never mind, have a nice day" picked up my bag and made my flight.
- cecilpl 14y ago
  I wouldn't even ask in that situation. Always prefer asking for forgiveness over permission unless you're doing something irreversible.
smsm42 14y ago
99.99% of all paperwork is done to cover somebody's ass in case something goes wrong. So if the guy is fine, nobody cares. If the guy makes trouble in Australia, border control's ass is covered - they asked about if he's a criminal, and he lied, so they could do nothing, so no blame on them. If there were no such question, eventually somebody would say "oh, if only border control would ask the right questions, we could avoid that - so let's assign blame to them". To prevent that, they have a cover. If you tell the truth, and the truth requires them taking additional risk, they will dispose of this risk as quickly and efficiently as they can - i.e. in that case, by denying entry. This way, their ass stays covered.
- user24 14y ago
  But the problem with all these things is that if the guy had lied on the form and then got in any kind of trouble, suddenly it becomes a huge issue that he lied on the form. It makes the bureaucrats life easier at the expense of the rights of the people involved.
  - smsm42 14y ago
    Of course. That's the whole point of it.
raverbashing 14y ago
Absolutely true But I wouldn't risk this going into the US. On other countries, it's worth the risk, and it has worked for me already (not with something written, but spoken. I wasn't lying btw)
gadders 14y ago
It's like the US Customs form when they ask if you have ever visited a farm. I sort of live on a farm (a collection of converted farm buildings, neighbours are corporate types or also hobby farm). What happens if I say yes?
- UnoriginalGuy 14y ago
  They check your bags and feet for dried dirt, maybe have you stand in a tray with chemicals to destroy anything nasty on the bottom of your shoes, and check your country of origin against a list to see just how bad it could potentially be. US Customs generally speaking aren't that bad. It is US immigration which are authoritarian nutjobs (and the TSA). US Customs seem to be mostly interested in FACTS, immigration and the TSA seem to be mostly interested in if they like you as a person and if you treat them well.
  - gadders 14y ago
    I have to say I've never really had a bad experience with immigration (touch wood). US Customs did however once confiscate a Fortnum and Mason's pork pie from me that I was taking to an English friend in Seattle.
    - UnoriginalGuy 14y ago
      Was the pork pie cooked? They have a rule against raw meat but if it is cooked then it should have been allowed through.
      - gadders 14y ago
        Cooked and vacuum sealed, the rotters! :-)
      - maxerickson 14y ago
        https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/944/~/bringing-meat,-poultry-or-pork%2Fswine-products-into-the-u.s https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/944/~/bringing-.... (Says canned, cooked, shelf stable pork only. Must be in commercial packaging with labeling to that effect.)
nhangen 14y ago
It was the same way getting into the Army. 'Telling the truth on security forms is absolutely essential to being granted a security clearance now or in the future.' Then I'm told to lie about past mistakes, medical history, and anything else that leaves the application untidy.
- danielweber 14y ago
  Different bureaucracies are fighting over that form, and you are the ping pong ball caught between them.

by sivers 14y ago

noarchy 14y ago

Being arrested is way different from having been convicted of a crime, but it seems that border agents across the world don't want this pointed out. I've been asked a similar question often enough at the US-Canadian border("Have you ever been in front of a judge?"). Unfortunately, you do have to treat these encounters like you would police questioning. Don't volunteer information, and give very simple (yes/no) answers if you really need to answer.

justin66 14y ago

This highlights a problem which isn't unique to Australia. For example, if a potential employer (or whoever) asks you if you've ever been arrested and your record has been expunged or you've been pardoned, you are expected to lie and say "no". That is how the system works. It sucks, but learning how to deal with these sorts of things is part of the price one has to pay when they have a run-in with the law. I'm not sure it's analogous to the boat thing. The agent really was wrong to insist on processing the boat with the incorrect information.

vacri 14y ago
If the employer wants that information, they can stump for a police background check. My private life is my private life, and there's no way that a checkbox on a form photocopied by the hundreds is going to give a balanced view of any arrest of mine. I have never been arrested, but if the employer actually needs that level of employee security - perhaps handling client money? - then it's the employer's duty to protect themselves with more than a volunteered checkbox.
- untog 14y ago
  Sure. But a lot of employers have no such security requirements, yet ask anyway.
melvinmt 14y ago
I'm wondering, isn't asking for your criminal history during job interviews the same as discriminating based on age or race? I mean, even if you were convicted, you've paid the price by doing your time and after that you should have equal opportunities at a job like anyone else, right? Maybe I'm just too idealistic but I never understood why we hardly give these people a second chance. And then people wonder why recidivism rates are so high.
- rrreese 14y ago
  If I'm hiring an accountant I probably want to know if they have a history of dishonesty charges. You are free to give such a person a second chance, I'm less keen. I probably don't care if they had some drug charge 20 years ago though. Not sure how that's racist or ageist?
  - barrkel 14y ago
    Because the US justice system disproportionately punishes black crime, and older people are more likely to have had an encounter with the law.
- nitrogen 14y ago

raintrees 14y ago

Or, just go with the flow. I remember a time I was leaving Boca Raton Florida, heading for Front Royal Virginia (field engineering work). I had a partial bottle of wine in my carry on (way before 9-11) and as I carefully set the bag on the conveyor for the x-ray device, I asked the security attendant if it was okay to have a partial bottle in the bag. She said "What?" in a heavy accent, so I asked again, she said "What?" again, and by this time my bag was at the bottom of the exit ramp of the conveyor. I said "Never mind, have a nice day" picked up my bag and made my flight.

cecilpl 14y ago
I wouldn't even ask in that situation. Always prefer asking for forgiveness over permission unless you're doing something irreversible.

smsm42 14y ago

99.99% of all paperwork is done to cover somebody's ass in case something goes wrong. So if the guy is fine, nobody cares. If the guy makes trouble in Australia, border control's ass is covered - they asked about if he's a criminal, and he lied, so they could do nothing, so no blame on them. If there were no such question, eventually somebody would say "oh, if only border control would ask the right questions, we could avoid that - so let's assign blame to them". To prevent that, they have a cover. If you tell the truth, and the truth requires them taking additional risk, they will dispose of this risk as quickly and efficiently as they can - i.e. in that case, by denying entry. This way, their ass stays covered.

user24 14y ago
But the problem with all these things is that if the guy had lied on the form and then got in any kind of trouble, suddenly it becomes a huge issue that he lied on the form. It makes the bureaucrats life easier at the expense of the rights of the people involved.
- smsm42 14y ago
  Of course. That's the whole point of it.

raverbashing 14y ago

Absolutely true But I wouldn't risk this going into the US. On other countries, it's worth the risk, and it has worked for me already (not with something written, but spoken. I wasn't lying btw)

gadders 14y ago

It's like the US Customs form when they ask if you have ever visited a farm. I sort of live on a farm (a collection of converted farm buildings, neighbours are corporate types or also hobby farm). What happens if I say yes?

UnoriginalGuy 14y ago
They check your bags and feet for dried dirt, maybe have you stand in a tray with chemicals to destroy anything nasty on the bottom of your shoes, and check your country of origin against a list to see just how bad it could potentially be. US Customs generally speaking aren't that bad. It is US immigration which are authoritarian nutjobs (and the TSA). US Customs seem to be mostly interested in FACTS, immigration and the TSA seem to be mostly interested in if they like you as a person and if you treat them well.
- gadders 14y ago
  I have to say I've never really had a bad experience with immigration (touch wood). US Customs did however once confiscate a Fortnum and Mason's pork pie from me that I was taking to an English friend in Seattle.
  - UnoriginalGuy 14y ago
    Was the pork pie cooked? They have a rule against raw meat but if it is cooked then it should have been allowed through.
    - gadders 14y ago
      Cooked and vacuum sealed, the rotters! :-)
    - maxerickson 14y ago
      https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/944/~/bringing-meat,-poultry-or-pork%2Fswine-products-into-the-u.s https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/944/~/bringing-.... (Says canned, cooked, shelf stable pork only. Must be in commercial packaging with labeling to that effect.)

nhangen 14y ago

It was the same way getting into the Army. 'Telling the truth on security forms is absolutely essential to being granted a security clearance now or in the future.' Then I'm told to lie about past mistakes, medical history, and anything else that leaves the application untidy.

danielweber 14y ago
Different bureaucracies are fighting over that form, and you are the ping pong ball caught between them.