6 ms·

Microsoft sides with Oracle against Google in Java appeal

64 points by snydeq 14y ago

deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
kirarev 14y ago
kind of ridiculous that this even makes to court in the first place.... edit: Does anyone know much about the precedence (in court rulings) of ownership of programming languages?
- lostnet 14y ago
  I think you would have to separate out the different aspects of implementation, syntax and publicity into things that could be patented, copyrighted or trademarked. You could look at Loglan vs Logban for strongly related issues on what you can and can not copyright in language in general.
magicalist 14y ago
This article is trying to make hay out of various tech wars because it makes a nice narrative, but the key here is A copy of Microsoft's legal brief was not immediately available on the Federal Circuit's docket. All we know is that they filed a friend of the court brief. Oracle's appeal has a fairly diverse[1] spread of approaches to copyright and APIs in an attempt to make their case. Microsoft's brief could be equally sprawling or limited to a single aspect of Oracle's claims. We won't know until we can actually read it. [1] http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/02/on-appeal-oracle-insists-googles-android-copied-key-java-code/ http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/02/on-appeal-oracle-...
callumjones 14y ago
Does Microsoft actually have a vested interest specifically in the use of Java by Google, such as being upset that Google had free use of the Java APIs while itself was scolded for implementing their own JVM? Or is it basically "the enemy of my enemy is my friend"?
- OGinparadise 14y ago
  Guessing only: MS is a software company so they'd want to make it harder for others to copy (like whatever Google supposedly copied from java.) This, of course, is business for all involved, nothing personal.
  - stanleydrew 14y ago
    But that's a little strange, since Google is also a software company.
    - chii 14y ago
      Google is not a software company. Google is an advertising company that uses (massively intelligent) software.
      - cromwellian 14y ago
        This is a common refrain, sometimes used as a slight, as if Google is just another Don Draper firm, that just happens to have some tech in its portfolio. As a rank-and-file Googler, my personal experience is that most Google engineers perceive that we are a technology company and advertising is often off in the edges of their mind. Yes, advertising is the majority revenue product, but like many startups, the people working on moonshots are not thinking about the business model, they are thinking about the problem to be solved. When most people go work on a 20% project, some of which become top Google services, they don't start out thinking, for example, "How can I increase ad revenue by making voice recognition better."
        OGinparadise 14y ago
        they don't start out thinking, for example, "How can I increase ad revenue by making voice recognition better." No offense, yet ad revenue magically it increase quarter after quarter after quarter. Surprise? FYI: You are an ad company, a cutthroat and an annoying one too (I am about to use adblock.) Yes, advertising is the majority revenue product Consider the "moonshots" as HR advertising and to get Google press. Virtually all your earnings are because you twist things to get people to click on those expensive and annoying ads and you also buy politicians. You cannot have your cake and eat it too. Have you mined those asteroids yet? Sure got a lot of press out of it
jebblue 14y ago
Considering where .Net and C# came from (as in heavily, heavily, heavily influenced by) and we have to forget those pictures of Bill Gates chumming around with then President Clinton riding around in golf carts; it seems clear why Microsoft would take the stance they did..."Android is the best-selling smartphone operating system around the world.".
camus 14y ago
I guess they dont understand why they lost in court with Sun and why Google did not with Oracle. And an android legal "takedown" would be very beneficial to MSFT ,since they try to sell phoneOS too.
- slurry 14y ago
  Microsoft had licensed Java code under a trade agreement and was found to have violated the terms of that trade agreement. Google had not licensed Java code, and was sued under patent law. Totally different kind of case.
  - caf 14y ago
    Oracle made both patent and copyright claims against Google. The patent claims were pretty bog-standard, but the copyright claim (the loss of which is what Oracle is appealing) was quite... novel.
- mtgx 14y ago
  I find it pretty sad that Microsoft are lowering themselves to trying to kill competition through lawsuits, lobbying for anti-trust, and paying for hate and FUD campaigns against them lately. On the other hand all this stuff is not exactly strange to Microsoft. Just continuing the legacy.
  - tsotha 14y ago
    Microsoft was on the receiving end of a lot of these kinds of campaigns as well, so you can hardly blame them.
z3phyr 14y ago
If anytime I have to use a 'managed' language, I go for python and haskell. Though, most of the time, I work on my video game renderer engine in evergreen C/C++ , I am quite satisfied and productive :) There is no use of C#, Java or VB for my work, and for good reasons ;)
- berlinbrown 14y ago
  So you as the sole developer have decided that python and haskell are good for you. Well I am convinced. Sure, you aren't dealing with 30 year old databases. Or 100s of developers with millions of code. But that shouldn't matter.
  - Locke1689 14y ago
    The original post was off-topic and useless. There's no need to draw the entire conversation off-topic.
Egregore 14y ago
As a good in my opinion (but unfortunatelly improbable) move from Google, will be to switch from Java to Haxe in next versions, because it compiles both to native Android and to Java and looks similar to Java, on the first view.

64 points by snydeq 14y ago

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

kind of ridiculous that this even makes to court in the first place.... edit: Does anyone know much about the precedence (in court rulings) of ownership of programming languages?

lostnet 14y ago
I think you would have to separate out the different aspects of implementation, syntax and publicity into things that could be patented, copyrighted or trademarked. You could look at Loglan vs Logban for strongly related issues on what you can and can not copyright in language in general.

magicalist 14y ago

This article is trying to make hay out of various tech wars because it makes a nice narrative, but the key here is A copy of Microsoft's legal brief was not immediately available on the Federal Circuit's docket. All we know is that they filed a friend of the court brief. Oracle's appeal has a fairly diverse[1] spread of approaches to copyright and APIs in an attempt to make their case. Microsoft's brief could be equally sprawling or limited to a single aspect of Oracle's claims. We won't know until we can actually read it. [1] http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/02/on-appeal-oracle-insists-googles-android-copied-key-java-code/ http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/02/on-appeal-oracle-...

callumjones 14y ago

Does Microsoft actually have a vested interest specifically in the use of Java by Google, such as being upset that Google had free use of the Java APIs while itself was scolded for implementing their own JVM? Or is it basically "the enemy of my enemy is my friend"?

OGinparadise 14y ago
Guessing only: MS is a software company so they'd want to make it harder for others to copy (like whatever Google supposedly copied from java.) This, of course, is business for all involved, nothing personal.
- stanleydrew 14y ago
  But that's a little strange, since Google is also a software company.
  - chii 14y ago
    Google is not a software company. Google is an advertising company that uses (massively intelligent) software.
    - cromwellian 14y ago
      This is a common refrain, sometimes used as a slight, as if Google is just another Don Draper firm, that just happens to have some tech in its portfolio. As a rank-and-file Googler, my personal experience is that most Google engineers perceive that we are a technology company and advertising is often off in the edges of their mind. Yes, advertising is the majority revenue product, but like many startups, the people working on moonshots are not thinking about the business model, they are thinking about the problem to be solved. When most people go work on a 20% project, some of which become top Google services, they don't start out thinking, for example, "How can I increase ad revenue by making voice recognition better."
      - OGinparadise 14y ago
        they don't start out thinking, for example, "How can I increase ad revenue by making voice recognition better." No offense, yet ad revenue magically it increase quarter after quarter after quarter. Surprise? FYI: You are an ad company, a cutthroat and an annoying one too (I am about to use adblock.) Yes, advertising is the majority revenue product Consider the "moonshots" as HR advertising and to get Google press. Virtually all your earnings are because you twist things to get people to click on those expensive and annoying ads and you also buy politicians. You cannot have your cake and eat it too. Have you mined those asteroids yet? Sure got a lot of press out of it

jebblue 14y ago

Considering where .Net and C# came from (as in heavily, heavily, heavily influenced by) and we have to forget those pictures of Bill Gates chumming around with then President Clinton riding around in golf carts; it seems clear why Microsoft would take the stance they did..."Android is the best-selling smartphone operating system around the world.".

camus 14y ago

I guess they dont understand why they lost in court with Sun and why Google did not with Oracle. And an android legal "takedown" would be very beneficial to MSFT ,since they try to sell phoneOS too.

slurry 14y ago
Microsoft had licensed Java code under a trade agreement and was found to have violated the terms of that trade agreement. Google had not licensed Java code, and was sued under patent law. Totally different kind of case.
- caf 14y ago
  Oracle made both patent and copyright claims against Google. The patent claims were pretty bog-standard, but the copyright claim (the loss of which is what Oracle is appealing) was quite... novel.
mtgx 14y ago
I find it pretty sad that Microsoft are lowering themselves to trying to kill competition through lawsuits, lobbying for anti-trust, and paying for hate and FUD campaigns against them lately. On the other hand all this stuff is not exactly strange to Microsoft. Just continuing the legacy.
- tsotha 14y ago
  Microsoft was on the receiving end of a lot of these kinds of campaigns as well, so you can hardly blame them.

z3phyr 14y ago

If anytime I have to use a 'managed' language, I go for python and haskell. Though, most of the time, I work on my video game renderer engine in evergreen C/C++ , I am quite satisfied and productive :) There is no use of C#, Java or VB for my work, and for good reasons ;)

berlinbrown 14y ago
So you as the sole developer have decided that python and haskell are good for you. Well I am convinced. Sure, you aren't dealing with 30 year old databases. Or 100s of developers with millions of code. But that shouldn't matter.
- Locke1689 14y ago
  The original post was off-topic and useless. There's no need to draw the entire conversation off-topic.

Egregore 14y ago

As a good in my opinion (but unfortunatelly improbable) move from Google, will be to switch from Java to Haxe in next versions, because it compiles both to native Android and to Java and looks similar to Java, on the first view.