6 ms·

The Super Supercapacitor [video]

124 points by gilli 14y ago

mpweiher 14y ago
Very cool tech, and the manufacturing process looks doable as well. :-) Except for us poor mac-heads, how is iTunes going to make me some Graphene?? I was a bit disappointed that there weren't any numbers in the film, so I looked them up: http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/122763-graphene-supercapacitors-are-20-times-as-powerful-can-be-made-with-a-dvd-burner http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/122763-graphene-supercapa... Energy density (storage capacity) does seem to be in range of Lithium Ion batteries, better than some, but still around a factor 7 or so worse than the highest density there (but slowest to discharge). Considering the extra effort managing the batteries (Boeing, Tesla,...) you might just come out ahead already. On the other hand, Graphene apparently also makes Lithium-Ion batteries significantly better: http://www.extremetech.com/computing/105343-graphene-improves-lithium-ion-battery-capacity-and-recharge-rate-by-10x http://www.extremetech.com/computing/105343-graphene-improve...
- hwillis 14y ago
  There also exist hybrid supercapacitors, which use a chemical reaction but act like capacitors. The best use of high-power capacitors is not as a replacement, its as a supplement. Current technology is not quite sufficient, but ideally it would mean that anything under a 20 minute drive could run off just the capacitor, which could(with sufficient infrastructure) charge in under a minute. It's not quite filling up on gas, but its closer. I would like to see more investigation into turbine powered cars again, it may be more feasible now to build a car like we build trains (A prime mover generates energy for locomotive motors). I think the best way to transition from gasoline to electric would be to take advantage of existing infrastructure and make hot-swappable battery units. For medium drives you use batteries, which can be switched in a garage with a capacitor bank for short drives, or a unit with a small battery, a helicopter turbojet and a gas tank (Which, ideally, would run at a higher efficiency than an ICE). The reason we haven't used turbines in the past as far as I know is mostly the start-up times and inability to idle. They don't really slow down, so sitting in stop and go traffic you engine is basically still on full blast. Ameliorate that with a battery and you're good to go, hopefully.
  - jws 14y ago
    I believe turbines have efficiency problems as you scale them down. Ah yes, graph here… http://www.dg.history.vt.edu/images/image5_2.gif http://www.dg.history.vt.edu/images/image5_2.gif which is from http://www.dg.history.vt.edu/ch5/turbines.html http://www.dg.history.vt.edu/ch5/turbines.html And then notice that the smallest turbine on the plot is about two orders of magnitude larger than you need in a small car.
    - Retric 14y ago
      The graph relates to intended use not just physical limitations. Backup generators are generally more concerned with cost and matinace issues than efficecy. So they tend to be simpler and have much lower tolerances. That said, the automotive market is huge so if they ever became popular for say plug in hybrids something in the 30-40% range is vary possible even at 100hp.
  - CapitalistCartr 14y ago
    Chrysler made a turbine powered car in the Sixties. It would run on nearly anything. Unfortunately, Chrysler never pushed it to mass production, then the oil embargo put paid to that idea. But it was one of those beautiful futures of the Sixties. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysler_Turbine_Car http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysler_Turbine_Car
    - ableal 14y ago
      Fascinating. At the end there's a link to an earlier Fiat I did not know had existed: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_Turbina http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_Turbina (the photo reminded me of something familiar, took me a bit to figure out it was a guppy fish ;-)
    - rootedbox 14y ago
      Turbines are not fuel efficient for vehicles that are stationary as they idle at 20k rpm. Also the exhaust is highly polluting.
- deadairspace 14y ago
  >Energy-wise, we’re talking about 1.36 milliwatt-hours per cm3, about twice the density of activated carbon, and comparable to a high-power lithium-ion battery. That's not really comparable to any "high-power lithium-ion battery" at all - Wikipedia quotes 250–730 Wh per litre for Li-ion (so 250-730 mWh/cm^3), and a quick calculation with a laptop battery I have on hand agrees - 84 Wh stated in 27x4x2cm = 388 mWh/cm^3.
acd 14y ago
Combine the graphene supercapacitor with Korea Advanced Institute of Science and Technology OLEV and we would soon have clean transportation in the cities. Imagine what that would do for air quality! Say that you build inductive charging points in the lanes before stop lights. The car/bus stops and charges the supercapitor. EV battery problem solved with little extra weight needed by the car. Sure a range extending hybrid car with a engine would be needed in the start until more charging points would be available on the country side. OLEV http://txchnologist.com/post/43160353907/wireless-electricity-transmission-being-deployed-to http://txchnologist.com/post/43160353907/wireless-electricit... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsEYped_gZc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsEYped_gZc
- jws 14y ago
  How about catapults, like an aircraft carrier, instead of inductive chargers? You get all your kinetic energy to road speed plus you can regeneratively charge to the limits of tire/road traction. You get the energy for at least two stops and all you need is a little someplace on the bottom of the car for the hook to engage. I'll bet intersections are more efficient too when the intersection can fire off the waiting traffic in short order. You'll need a little faith that the intersection software won't launch you into cross traffic or pedestrians. And I'll bet you don't need red light cameras anymore once there is the threat of having a Prius launched into your driver's side door at 30mph.
  - stcredzero 14y ago
    I chuckle at the thought of a Prius becoming catapult ammo. Ingeniously bad and funny idea.
  - mikeash 14y ago
    With some cheap ramps, you could get rid of the stops altogether. Have the catapult run cross traffic up to the proper speed, and then jump over the other street and land safely(?) on the other side. I've long thought that the third dimension was woefully underused in smoothing the flow of traffic through intersections.
DanWaterworth 14y ago
I haven't seen any mention of the efficiency. Does anyone have any numbers comparing a regular battery to a graphene supercapacitor?
- lutusp 14y ago
  They won't know until they process this first step into a working device with conductors and all the essential elements of a real storage device. But in principle, a capacitor is a much better storage device than a battery -- no chemical conversions, no limit to charge-discharge cycles, many similar advantages.
  - meaty 14y ago
    They aren't magic. They have a relatively high self-discharge (or leakage depending on how you measure it) compared to say Li-ion/NiMh cells which means basically they piss capacity away slowly. Don't expect your wonderful supercap car to actually be charged if you leave it sitting there for a few hours.
    - lutusp 14y ago
      > They have a relatively high self-discharge (or leakage depending on how you measure it) compared to say Li-ion/NiMh cells which means basically they piss capacity away slowly. Your claim is premature -- they haven't chosen an insulator yet. The graphene sheets are the conducting surfaces, not the insulating layer. Your claims are about the properties of the insulating layer between graphene sheets, which hasn't been selected yet. It looks like this: Graphene (+) --------------------------------- Insulator ------------------------------------ Graphene (-) ---------------------------------
      - meaty 14y ago
        Charge leaks through the conductors as well into the connecting circuits, through the packaging and the adhesives. No insulator doesn't leak.
ksec 14y ago
Sounds like Cheap and Powerful, So what is stopping this from mass production? My Phone could help with a charging time of less then a minutes!.
- olympus 14y ago
  From what I understand, it's fairly expensive. It's tough to make a profit on a phone when the battery costs $500. Costs are surely coming down but I think we'll have to wait before it hits the mass markets. From the wikipedia page on graphene [1]: "On the other hand, the price of epitaxial graphene on SiC is dominated by the substrate price, which is approximately $100/cm2 as of 2009." [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphene#Occurrence_and_production http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphene#Occurrence_and_product...
  - chime 14y ago
    I would pay $500 extra if I could charge my phone in 1 minute. I would pay $2000 extra if my laptop could do the same.
gil 14y ago
Shiny movie and very easy to understand but forgive me if I'm skeptic about something without any supporting numbers or scientific background
glabifrons 14y ago
Previous discussion (same video, on hackaday): http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4958875 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4958875 Another: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3723943 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3723943 And another: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3710054 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3710054 All 3 are linked to different articles.
Egregore 14y ago
In the video they show that graphene can be thrown away in compost bin safely, how is it related to all the warnings we have about nanomaterials being dangerous?
- lutusp 14y ago
  The warnings about nanomaterials are about their applications, not their mere existence. (The rational warnings, anyway.) Graphene is just a form of carbon, like graphite or diamond, neither of which is thought to be particularly hazardous. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphene http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphene
  - glogla 14y ago
    True, but for example carbon nanotubes are also just "form of carbon" and they are great for lot of uses, but have about the same effect on human bodies as Asbestos, [1] so asking about this is legimitate. You're right that Graphene is ok, though. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_nanotube#Toxicity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_nanotube#Toxicity
  - btilly 14y ago
    Not necessarily true. As http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=carbon-nanotube-danger http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=carbon-nano... explains, the impact that asbestos has on our lungs is a mechanical process, and will be caused by any kind of hard object about the same size. A lot of nanomaterials have the potential for creating dust in this size, including ones made of pure carbon.
    - lutusp 14y ago
      Yes, but this isn't a property unique to nanomaterials -- it's a generic risk common to all materials that can produce fine, abrasive dust. My point is this doesn't represent a nanomaterial risk, it's an ordinary risk in which the source happens to be a nanomaterial. Otherwise asbestos could be classed as a nanomaterial risk after the fact. Is lunar surface material a nanomaterial? It's certainly nasty stuff and it gets everywhere. It's regarded as one of the primary risks in lunar colonization. Does that make it a nanomaterial?
brokentone 14y ago
I got my dad an ultracapacitor flashlight (http://www.ohgizmo.com/2008/11/10/ultracapacitor-flashlight-recharges-in-90-seconds/ http://www.ohgizmo.com/2008/11/10/ultracapacitor-flashlight-...) a few years back and he loved it till it got stolen. Really quick recharge time, decent "battery" life. Interestingly this flashlight was discontinued, and I don't see any new ones on 5.11 tactical's website. I wonder why? I'm really interested in any increases in these types of technology, love to see what comes of this.
achy 14y ago
Having a better conducting, higher surface area electrode is a huge step. BUT it doesn't really change the fact that a carbon based supercapacitor requires an electrolyte to form the double layer, and all existing electrolytes have a breakdown voltage below 5V. What we need is a better electrolyte. In calculating energy storage in a capacitor, the energy increases exponentially with voltage, while linearly with capacitance.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
icoder 14y ago
Very cool and batteries 2.0 would definitely change the world. But this vid is a bit one sided. To charge something in an instance means a lot of electricity has to run through the wire in a very short time. Also, being able to quickly discharge might just be as much of a problem as it is a blessing. Imagine all stored power inside a electric cars capacitor system to discharge all at once..
- learc83 14y ago
  >Imagine all stored power inside a electric cars capacitor system to discharge all at once.. True, but right now we drive cars sitting on top gallons of gasoline that's much more energy dense than supercapacitors.
ChuckMcM 14y ago
At some point this will be pretty killer tech. One of my favorite applications is to put large capacitors into the foundation of a house with solar panels. Back when Maxell was showing of 4.2F car battery sized capacitors we did the math and figured that a house with a 1500 sq ft base foot print could support enough charge to carry it overnight, assuming that you were in a moderate climate (California worked, Minnesota didn't). Once you can go 'off grid' without battery maintenance worries it will become a lot more common I suspect.
Aardwolf 14y ago
This is on a page about Films, Festivals and Directors. Is this fact or fiction? Is this a film about a fictive discovery, or real?

124 points by gilli 14y ago

Very cool tech, and the manufacturing process looks doable as well. :-) Except for us poor mac-heads, how is iTunes going to make me some Graphene?? I was a bit disappointed that there weren't any numbers in the film, so I looked them up: http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/122763-graphene-supercapacitors-are-20-times-as-powerful-can-be-made-with-a-dvd-burner http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/122763-graphene-supercapa... Energy density (storage capacity) does seem to be in range of Lithium Ion batteries, better than some, but still around a factor 7 or so worse than the highest density there (but slowest to discharge). Considering the extra effort managing the batteries (Boeing, Tesla,...) you might just come out ahead already. On the other hand, Graphene apparently also makes Lithium-Ion batteries significantly better: http://www.extremetech.com/computing/105343-graphene-improves-lithium-ion-battery-capacity-and-recharge-rate-by-10x http://www.extremetech.com/computing/105343-graphene-improve...

hwillis 14y ago
There also exist hybrid supercapacitors, which use a chemical reaction but act like capacitors. The best use of high-power capacitors is not as a replacement, its as a supplement. Current technology is not quite sufficient, but ideally it would mean that anything under a 20 minute drive could run off just the capacitor, which could(with sufficient infrastructure) charge in under a minute. It's not quite filling up on gas, but its closer. I would like to see more investigation into turbine powered cars again, it may be more feasible now to build a car like we build trains (A prime mover generates energy for locomotive motors). I think the best way to transition from gasoline to electric would be to take advantage of existing infrastructure and make hot-swappable battery units. For medium drives you use batteries, which can be switched in a garage with a capacitor bank for short drives, or a unit with a small battery, a helicopter turbojet and a gas tank (Which, ideally, would run at a higher efficiency than an ICE). The reason we haven't used turbines in the past as far as I know is mostly the start-up times and inability to idle. They don't really slow down, so sitting in stop and go traffic you engine is basically still on full blast. Ameliorate that with a battery and you're good to go, hopefully.
- jws 14y ago
  I believe turbines have efficiency problems as you scale them down. Ah yes, graph here… http://www.dg.history.vt.edu/images/image5_2.gif http://www.dg.history.vt.edu/images/image5_2.gif which is from http://www.dg.history.vt.edu/ch5/turbines.html http://www.dg.history.vt.edu/ch5/turbines.html And then notice that the smallest turbine on the plot is about two orders of magnitude larger than you need in a small car.
  - Retric 14y ago
    The graph relates to intended use not just physical limitations. Backup generators are generally more concerned with cost and matinace issues than efficecy. So they tend to be simpler and have much lower tolerances. That said, the automotive market is huge so if they ever became popular for say plug in hybrids something in the 30-40% range is vary possible even at 100hp.
- CapitalistCartr 14y ago
  Chrysler made a turbine powered car in the Sixties. It would run on nearly anything. Unfortunately, Chrysler never pushed it to mass production, then the oil embargo put paid to that idea. But it was one of those beautiful futures of the Sixties. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysler_Turbine_Car http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysler_Turbine_Car
  - ableal 14y ago
    Fascinating. At the end there's a link to an earlier Fiat I did not know had existed: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_Turbina http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_Turbina (the photo reminded me of something familiar, took me a bit to figure out it was a guppy fish ;-)
  - rootedbox 14y ago
    Turbines are not fuel efficient for vehicles that are stationary as they idle at 20k rpm. Also the exhaust is highly polluting.
deadairspace 14y ago
>Energy-wise, we’re talking about 1.36 milliwatt-hours per cm3, about twice the density of activated carbon, and comparable to a high-power lithium-ion battery. That's not really comparable to any "high-power lithium-ion battery" at all - Wikipedia quotes 250–730 Wh per litre for Li-ion (so 250-730 mWh/cm^3), and a quick calculation with a laptop battery I have on hand agrees - 84 Wh stated in 27x4x2cm = 388 mWh/cm^3.

acd 14y ago

Combine the graphene supercapacitor with Korea Advanced Institute of Science and Technology OLEV and we would soon have clean transportation in the cities. Imagine what that would do for air quality! Say that you build inductive charging points in the lanes before stop lights. The car/bus stops and charges the supercapitor. EV battery problem solved with little extra weight needed by the car. Sure a range extending hybrid car with a engine would be needed in the start until more charging points would be available on the country side. OLEV http://txchnologist.com/post/43160353907/wireless-electricity-transmission-being-deployed-to http://txchnologist.com/post/43160353907/wireless-electricit... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsEYped_gZc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsEYped_gZc

jws 14y ago
How about catapults, like an aircraft carrier, instead of inductive chargers? You get all your kinetic energy to road speed plus you can regeneratively charge to the limits of tire/road traction. You get the energy for at least two stops and all you need is a little someplace on the bottom of the car for the hook to engage. I'll bet intersections are more efficient too when the intersection can fire off the waiting traffic in short order. You'll need a little faith that the intersection software won't launch you into cross traffic or pedestrians. And I'll bet you don't need red light cameras anymore once there is the threat of having a Prius launched into your driver's side door at 30mph.
- stcredzero 14y ago
  I chuckle at the thought of a Prius becoming catapult ammo. Ingeniously bad and funny idea.
- mikeash 14y ago
  With some cheap ramps, you could get rid of the stops altogether. Have the catapult run cross traffic up to the proper speed, and then jump over the other street and land safely(?) on the other side. I've long thought that the third dimension was woefully underused in smoothing the flow of traffic through intersections.

DanWaterworth 14y ago

I haven't seen any mention of the efficiency. Does anyone have any numbers comparing a regular battery to a graphene supercapacitor?

lutusp 14y ago
They won't know until they process this first step into a working device with conductors and all the essential elements of a real storage device. But in principle, a capacitor is a much better storage device than a battery -- no chemical conversions, no limit to charge-discharge cycles, many similar advantages.
- meaty 14y ago
  They aren't magic. They have a relatively high self-discharge (or leakage depending on how you measure it) compared to say Li-ion/NiMh cells which means basically they piss capacity away slowly. Don't expect your wonderful supercap car to actually be charged if you leave it sitting there for a few hours.
  - lutusp 14y ago
    > They have a relatively high self-discharge (or leakage depending on how you measure it) compared to say Li-ion/NiMh cells which means basically they piss capacity away slowly. Your claim is premature -- they haven't chosen an insulator yet. The graphene sheets are the conducting surfaces, not the insulating layer. Your claims are about the properties of the insulating layer between graphene sheets, which hasn't been selected yet. It looks like this: Graphene (+) --------------------------------- Insulator ------------------------------------ Graphene (-) ---------------------------------
    - meaty 14y ago
      Charge leaks through the conductors as well into the connecting circuits, through the packaging and the adhesives. No insulator doesn't leak.

ksec 14y ago

Sounds like Cheap and Powerful, So what is stopping this from mass production? My Phone could help with a charging time of less then a minutes!.

olympus 14y ago
From what I understand, it's fairly expensive. It's tough to make a profit on a phone when the battery costs $500. Costs are surely coming down but I think we'll have to wait before it hits the mass markets. From the wikipedia page on graphene [1]: "On the other hand, the price of epitaxial graphene on SiC is dominated by the substrate price, which is approximately $100/cm2 as of 2009." [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphene#Occurrence_and_production http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphene#Occurrence_and_product...
- chime 14y ago
  I would pay $500 extra if I could charge my phone in 1 minute. I would pay $2000 extra if my laptop could do the same.

gil 14y ago

Shiny movie and very easy to understand but forgive me if I'm skeptic about something without any supporting numbers or scientific background

glabifrons 14y ago

Previous discussion (same video, on hackaday): http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4958875 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4958875 Another: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3723943 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3723943 And another: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3710054 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3710054 All 3 are linked to different articles.

Egregore 14y ago

In the video they show that graphene can be thrown away in compost bin safely, how is it related to all the warnings we have about nanomaterials being dangerous?

lutusp 14y ago
The warnings about nanomaterials are about their applications, not their mere existence. (The rational warnings, anyway.) Graphene is just a form of carbon, like graphite or diamond, neither of which is thought to be particularly hazardous. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphene http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphene
- glogla 14y ago
  True, but for example carbon nanotubes are also just "form of carbon" and they are great for lot of uses, but have about the same effect on human bodies as Asbestos, [1] so asking about this is legimitate. You're right that Graphene is ok, though. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_nanotube#Toxicity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_nanotube#Toxicity
- btilly 14y ago
  Not necessarily true. As http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=carbon-nanotube-danger http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=carbon-nano... explains, the impact that asbestos has on our lungs is a mechanical process, and will be caused by any kind of hard object about the same size. A lot of nanomaterials have the potential for creating dust in this size, including ones made of pure carbon.
  - lutusp 14y ago
    Yes, but this isn't a property unique to nanomaterials -- it's a generic risk common to all materials that can produce fine, abrasive dust. My point is this doesn't represent a nanomaterial risk, it's an ordinary risk in which the source happens to be a nanomaterial. Otherwise asbestos could be classed as a nanomaterial risk after the fact. Is lunar surface material a nanomaterial? It's certainly nasty stuff and it gets everywhere. It's regarded as one of the primary risks in lunar colonization. Does that make it a nanomaterial?

brokentone 14y ago

I got my dad an ultracapacitor flashlight (http://www.ohgizmo.com/2008/11/10/ultracapacitor-flashlight-recharges-in-90-seconds/ http://www.ohgizmo.com/2008/11/10/ultracapacitor-flashlight-...) a few years back and he loved it till it got stolen. Really quick recharge time, decent "battery" life. Interestingly this flashlight was discontinued, and I don't see any new ones on 5.11 tactical's website. I wonder why? I'm really interested in any increases in these types of technology, love to see what comes of this.

achy 14y ago

Having a better conducting, higher surface area electrode is a huge step. BUT it doesn't really change the fact that a carbon based supercapacitor requires an electrolyte to form the double layer, and all existing electrolytes have a breakdown voltage below 5V. What we need is a better electrolyte. In calculating energy storage in a capacitor, the energy increases exponentially with voltage, while linearly with capacitance.

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

icoder 14y ago

Very cool and batteries 2.0 would definitely change the world. But this vid is a bit one sided. To charge something in an instance means a lot of electricity has to run through the wire in a very short time. Also, being able to quickly discharge might just be as much of a problem as it is a blessing. Imagine all stored power inside a electric cars capacitor system to discharge all at once..

learc83 14y ago
>Imagine all stored power inside a electric cars capacitor system to discharge all at once.. True, but right now we drive cars sitting on top gallons of gasoline that's much more energy dense than supercapacitors.

ChuckMcM 14y ago

At some point this will be pretty killer tech. One of my favorite applications is to put large capacitors into the foundation of a house with solar panels. Back when Maxell was showing of 4.2F car battery sized capacitors we did the math and figured that a house with a 1500 sq ft base foot print could support enough charge to carry it overnight, assuming that you were in a moderate climate (California worked, Minnesota didn't). Once you can go 'off grid' without battery maintenance worries it will become a lot more common I suspect.

Aardwolf 14y ago

This is on a page about Films, Festivals and Directors. Is this fact or fiction? Is this a film about a fictive discovery, or real?