5 ms·

Really, then what exactly would you call it? You are essentially subject to all manner of ridiculous punishment for what would be considered minor or non-offens

Really, then what exactly would you call it? You are essentially subject to all manner of ridiculous punishment for what would be considered minor or non-offenses in most free countries. Most of their elections are uncontested. You can dress it up because their streets are clean and safe, but it's still facism.

venus 14y ago
> You are essentially subject to all manner of ridiculous punishment for what would be considered minor or non-offenses in most free countries Like vandalism and petty theft. And just look at how successful those "free countries" have been in addressing those categories of crime! What you call "ridiculous" is simply what you have been conditioned to think, no more. Elsewhere in the world it might be called "effective".
- homosaur 14y ago
  Fascism is very effective. It's about values and freedom. If you don't care about that, safety is easy.
  - venus 14y ago
    Corporal punishment of petty crimes == fascism. Is that your thesis? I believe you to be quite misinformed in your understanding of fascism, freedom, and everything else. As far as I can see, the only "freedom" on offer in the society you hint at is the freedom to not be punished effectively for your crimes. Please, Americans: if you have to mention the word "freedom" in your argument then you are probably talking shit. Think about it.
    - jlgreco 14y ago
      Are you familiar with Sinclair? I've long been a fan of his definition of the term. As he puts it, fascism is one part capitalism and one part brutality (if I recall correctly I believe he specifies murder, but I think the relation and general sentiment is clear.)
    - homosaur 14y ago
      I was hoping after editing this reply like 5 times, you were going to come up with something here... So you only address the punishment issue, but you don't say a thing about the sham elections. And yes, I'd prefer to step in gum once a year than have some 20 year old kid get beaten because they didn't conform to my narrow societal goals. This is the difference between the west and the east. It is a chasm in philosophy that will never be bridged.
      - venus 14y ago
        Sham elections? What are you talking about? Corporal punishment and sham elections go hand in hand? And have it your way. I'd prefer to ride in clean, non-vandalised trains, and the 20 year old would-be vandal was beaten after their first indiscretion, and never did it again. Seems to be it's less an unbridgeable chasm between east and west, and more a chasm between lazy Berkeley ideology and pragmatism.
        homosaur 14y ago
        Since you're resorting to catty little twat comments, this discussion is over. Just so you know, I come from dirt farmer immigrants in the Midwest, but keep assuming stuff. It's cute when people like you try to claim some sort of superiority due to your VASTLY superior logic. TL;DR: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pc0mxOXbWIU http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pc0mxOXbWIU
        deleted 14y ago
        [deleted]
        homosaur 14y ago
        Such amazing, relevant points being driven home in this. When is your book coming out? Can I write the foreword? Also, nice homophobia, "foreigner." I lived for a year and a half in Taiwan, so I've maaaaaaaybe had more experience than you think. P.S. Elitism is an ism too. You may learn that if you grow up at some point.
      - 14y ago
    - anigbrowl 14y ago
      Petty crimes such as vandalism and littering are offenses against property. corporal punishment is an attack upon the person. Most people don't consider injury to property to justify injury to the person.
      - homosaur 14y ago
        Large parts of the East consider injury to property, especially "public" property the same as an injury to society. Like apparently the fellow I'm debating with up here.
    - bluedanieru 14y ago
      Okay okay, we get it, you're an autocrat. You love power and the powerful. You wrap your lips around the cock of the state. Nice work.
  - jleader 14y ago
    I don't know much about Singapore, but I think it's worth pointing out that while sometimes Facism can be effective, more commonly Facism claims to be very effective, and punishes those who publicly say otherwise.
    - lostlogin 14y ago
      Like every political system. I suppose that the way I see it is that a fascist systems punishes in a way that is worse than the character assassination and innuendo that western democracy offers.
- jacques_chester 14y ago
  > And just look at how successful those "free countries" have been in addressing those categories of crime! The crime rate in Western countries, including the US, has been falling steadily since the 90s. Given the differences in cultures and legal frameworks ... nobody is really certain why.
  - vellum 14y ago
    One theory that's been gaining some attention is less lead = less crime. http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2013/01/lead-crime-link-gasoline http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2013/01/lead-crime-li...
    - jacques_chester 14y ago
      That's one I've seen. But there are quite a few -- long period of economic growth, the rise of video games, changing diets, changing weather, changing incarceration rates, changing police policy ...
agilord 14y ago
I've visited Singapore just for a few days, but based on that experiment, the western media is overdoing this Singapore-bashing. I'd strongly suggest to visit the country, or at least get familiar with its history, its surrounding neighbors, theirs relationships, theirs relative cultural and economical differences. After that you will understand them better, and you will realize that its not that black-and-white as the media would like to suggest. Heh, this gets downvoted for what? Oh well, feel free to stay in your bubble, and don't ask questions that will contradict your beliefs.
- philh 14y ago
  > I've visited Singapore just for a few days, but based on that experiment I spent a couple of weeks in the US, and never ran afoul of bad cops or drug laws. I conclude very little from this, because even if things are as bad as reddit says, I would not expect to run afoul of those things in such a short time if I'm not breaking any major laws. What bad things would you expect to see in just a few days, if the western media's Singapore bashing is not overblown?
  - gurkendoktor 14y ago
    I'm not sure if the grandparent post really meant it that way. It's not that you don't see anything bad while you are in Singapore, it's that you get a feeling for Singapore's situation. I've only been in Singapore for a short bit and I've met ethnic Chinese who were plenty happy to live in safe Singapore now, and not in the neighboring countries anymore (e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_13_Incident http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_13_Incident)
- michaelgrafl 14y ago
  You start off by telling us that you've been to Singapore just a few days and go on claiming superior insight into the country's cultural and political landscape. Then you wind up with a trite statement that contains a bunch of vague terms, is free of any meaning, and condescending to boot. You're free to stay in your bubble, too.
  - 14y ago
buster 14y ago
I'd describe Singapore strict laws just as effective and strict but in exchange you get a very safe and clean country, no drugs, no garbage, no theft. That's ok with me if (and only if) those laws are not exploited by the government. i don't think this is really the case in Singapore, at least not more then in the U.S. or european countries. Compared to the surrounding countries Singapore is like _the_ safe place and not the other way around.
- homosaur 14y ago
  I don't think their laws are necessarily brutal, but their enforcement of those laws is. They view people who break the taboo of law as people who should be handled with the full force of the state. And personally I like drugs.
  - buster 14y ago
    Ah well, just because you like the "freedom" of doing illegal things and the reassurance that if you're caught there will be virtually no consequences, doesn't make it right. There are people out there that say "And personally i like to beat my wife and kids" and there are societies where this is accepted behaviour. After being in Malaysia and Indonesia i felt very safe in Singapore and had not the impression of a state the oppresses its people. In short words: Every country has its rules to live by. Singapore may have strict laws but gains a lot in terms of overall safety.
    - white_devil 14y ago
      > There are people out there that say "And personally i like to beat my wife and kids" and there are societies where this is accepted behaviour. Don't equate smoking marijuana to beating another human being. I've never even tried it, for the record, but I don't see anything wrong with getting high if you want to, as long as you don't cause harm to others.
      - buster 14y ago
        I certainly don't equate marijuana to beating people (where did that word marijuana came from? It was about drugs. What about Krok? [1] Besides, you could count the victims of the drug scene, the mafia, gangs and everything that is behind drugs, bribe, weapons or prostitution. Buying drugs sponsors crime). Anyway, back to topic. The point is that Singapore has one of the lowest crime rates in the world [2], that doesn't come ouf of nowhere and is bought with very strict laws. Actually i was trying to make a point to not equate your own understanding of legality with another. We are all bound by certain laws and what we take for granted may sound very strange to others. For example, i find it very, very strange that, in the U.S., people are allowed to carry guns. Can't get it in my head. But well... [1] http://io9.com/5859291/krokodil-russias-designer-drug-that-will-eat-your-flesh http://io9.com/5859291/krokodil-russias-designer-drug-that-w... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Singapore https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Singapore

venus 14y ago

> You are essentially subject to all manner of ridiculous punishment for what would be considered minor or non-offenses in most free countries Like vandalism and petty theft. And just look at how successful those "free countries" have been in addressing those categories of crime! What you call "ridiculous" is simply what you have been conditioned to think, no more. Elsewhere in the world it might be called "effective".

homosaur 14y ago
Fascism is very effective. It's about values and freedom. If you don't care about that, safety is easy.
- venus 14y ago
  Corporal punishment of petty crimes == fascism. Is that your thesis? I believe you to be quite misinformed in your understanding of fascism, freedom, and everything else. As far as I can see, the only "freedom" on offer in the society you hint at is the freedom to not be punished effectively for your crimes. Please, Americans: if you have to mention the word "freedom" in your argument then you are probably talking shit. Think about it.
  - jlgreco 14y ago
    Are you familiar with Sinclair? I've long been a fan of his definition of the term. As he puts it, fascism is one part capitalism and one part brutality (if I recall correctly I believe he specifies murder, but I think the relation and general sentiment is clear.)
  - homosaur 14y ago
    I was hoping after editing this reply like 5 times, you were going to come up with something here... So you only address the punishment issue, but you don't say a thing about the sham elections. And yes, I'd prefer to step in gum once a year than have some 20 year old kid get beaten because they didn't conform to my narrow societal goals. This is the difference between the west and the east. It is a chasm in philosophy that will never be bridged.
    - venus 14y ago
      Sham elections? What are you talking about? Corporal punishment and sham elections go hand in hand? And have it your way. I'd prefer to ride in clean, non-vandalised trains, and the 20 year old would-be vandal was beaten after their first indiscretion, and never did it again. Seems to be it's less an unbridgeable chasm between east and west, and more a chasm between lazy Berkeley ideology and pragmatism.
      - homosaur 14y ago
        Since you're resorting to catty little twat comments, this discussion is over. Just so you know, I come from dirt farmer immigrants in the Midwest, but keep assuming stuff. It's cute when people like you try to claim some sort of superiority due to your VASTLY superior logic. TL;DR: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pc0mxOXbWIU http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pc0mxOXbWIU
        deleted 14y ago
        [deleted]
        homosaur 14y ago
        Such amazing, relevant points being driven home in this. When is your book coming out? Can I write the foreword? Also, nice homophobia, "foreigner." I lived for a year and a half in Taiwan, so I've maaaaaaaybe had more experience than you think. P.S. Elitism is an ism too. You may learn that if you grow up at some point.
    - 14y ago
  - anigbrowl 14y ago
    Petty crimes such as vandalism and littering are offenses against property. corporal punishment is an attack upon the person. Most people don't consider injury to property to justify injury to the person.
    - homosaur 14y ago
      Large parts of the East consider injury to property, especially "public" property the same as an injury to society. Like apparently the fellow I'm debating with up here.
  - bluedanieru 14y ago
    Okay okay, we get it, you're an autocrat. You love power and the powerful. You wrap your lips around the cock of the state. Nice work.
- jleader 14y ago
  I don't know much about Singapore, but I think it's worth pointing out that while sometimes Facism can be effective, more commonly Facism claims to be very effective, and punishes those who publicly say otherwise.
  - lostlogin 14y ago
    Like every political system. I suppose that the way I see it is that a fascist systems punishes in a way that is worse than the character assassination and innuendo that western democracy offers.
jacques_chester 14y ago
> And just look at how successful those "free countries" have been in addressing those categories of crime! The crime rate in Western countries, including the US, has been falling steadily since the 90s. Given the differences in cultures and legal frameworks ... nobody is really certain why.
- vellum 14y ago
  One theory that's been gaining some attention is less lead = less crime. http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2013/01/lead-crime-link-gasoline http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2013/01/lead-crime-li...
  - jacques_chester 14y ago
    That's one I've seen. But there are quite a few -- long period of economic growth, the rise of video games, changing diets, changing weather, changing incarceration rates, changing police policy ...

agilord 14y ago

I've visited Singapore just for a few days, but based on that experiment, the western media is overdoing this Singapore-bashing. I'd strongly suggest to visit the country, or at least get familiar with its history, its surrounding neighbors, theirs relationships, theirs relative cultural and economical differences. After that you will understand them better, and you will realize that its not that black-and-white as the media would like to suggest. Heh, this gets downvoted for what? Oh well, feel free to stay in your bubble, and don't ask questions that will contradict your beliefs.

philh 14y ago
> I've visited Singapore just for a few days, but based on that experiment I spent a couple of weeks in the US, and never ran afoul of bad cops or drug laws. I conclude very little from this, because even if things are as bad as reddit says, I would not expect to run afoul of those things in such a short time if I'm not breaking any major laws. What bad things would you expect to see in just a few days, if the western media's Singapore bashing is not overblown?
- gurkendoktor 14y ago
  I'm not sure if the grandparent post really meant it that way. It's not that you don't see anything bad while you are in Singapore, it's that you get a feeling for Singapore's situation. I've only been in Singapore for a short bit and I've met ethnic Chinese who were plenty happy to live in safe Singapore now, and not in the neighboring countries anymore (e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_13_Incident http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_13_Incident)
michaelgrafl 14y ago
You start off by telling us that you've been to Singapore just a few days and go on claiming superior insight into the country's cultural and political landscape. Then you wind up with a trite statement that contains a bunch of vague terms, is free of any meaning, and condescending to boot. You're free to stay in your bubble, too.
- 14y ago

buster 14y ago

I'd describe Singapore strict laws just as effective and strict but in exchange you get a very safe and clean country, no drugs, no garbage, no theft. That's ok with me if (and only if) those laws are not exploited by the government. i don't think this is really the case in Singapore, at least not more then in the U.S. or european countries. Compared to the surrounding countries Singapore is like _the_ safe place and not the other way around.

homosaur 14y ago
I don't think their laws are necessarily brutal, but their enforcement of those laws is. They view people who break the taboo of law as people who should be handled with the full force of the state. And personally I like drugs.
- buster 14y ago
  Ah well, just because you like the "freedom" of doing illegal things and the reassurance that if you're caught there will be virtually no consequences, doesn't make it right. There are people out there that say "And personally i like to beat my wife and kids" and there are societies where this is accepted behaviour. After being in Malaysia and Indonesia i felt very safe in Singapore and had not the impression of a state the oppresses its people. In short words: Every country has its rules to live by. Singapore may have strict laws but gains a lot in terms of overall safety.
  - white_devil 14y ago
    > There are people out there that say "And personally i like to beat my wife and kids" and there are societies where this is accepted behaviour. Don't equate smoking marijuana to beating another human being. I've never even tried it, for the record, but I don't see anything wrong with getting high if you want to, as long as you don't cause harm to others.
    - buster 14y ago
      I certainly don't equate marijuana to beating people (where did that word marijuana came from? It was about drugs. What about Krok? [1] Besides, you could count the victims of the drug scene, the mafia, gangs and everything that is behind drugs, bribe, weapons or prostitution. Buying drugs sponsors crime). Anyway, back to topic. The point is that Singapore has one of the lowest crime rates in the world [2], that doesn't come ouf of nowhere and is bought with very strict laws. Actually i was trying to make a point to not equate your own understanding of legality with another. We are all bound by certain laws and what we take for granted may sound very strange to others. For example, i find it very, very strange that, in the U.S., people are allowed to carry guns. Can't get it in my head. But well... [1] http://io9.com/5859291/krokodil-russias-designer-drug-that-will-eat-your-flesh http://io9.com/5859291/krokodil-russias-designer-drug-that-w... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Singapore https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Singapore