6 ms·

It isn't a police state. And in recent years, it has been shown that it isn't corruption-free either.

by hboon 14y ago

batgaijin 14y ago
http://www.state.gov/j/drl/rls/hrrpt/2007/100537.htm http://www.state.gov/j/drl/rls/hrrpt/2007/100537.htm You get caned if you overstay your 90 days.
- venus 14y ago
  And? How does that have any bearing on the story at hand whatsoever? As an entrepreneur who has seriously considered moving to singapore in the past I am much more interested in what can happen when you do obey their (quite reasonable) laws.
  - batgaijin 14y ago
    I think we all know if you're in asia stay as legal as possible. I'm just saying don't make an exception for Singapore.
    - venus 14y ago
      Fair enough. Good advice. I'm trying not to come across as some pro-authoritarianism masochist in this thread but am I really alone in thinking that there's some merit in deciding a set of laws, then enforcing them? Overstay your visa? Is that really a minor crime? Does that happen by accident? When was the last time you "accidentally" stayed more than 90 days in a foreign country? In my country, Australia, you'd be "punished" by being flown home at our expense. Wow. What a deterrent. That'll stop them .. er, using the same passport the next time they try. There are a lot of things to love about western society but the blind adherence to this 1970s "never harm the child" ideology is fucking crap. Corporal punishment works. It's as simple as that. We have dispensed with it in western culture - without an effective alternative - to our loss.
      - jlgreco 14y ago
        Are you familiar with what caning, as performed as intended in Singapore, actually entails? It is not merely the infliction of pain, not some glorified form of spanking, but rather the infliction of bodily injury so severe that it requires immediate medical attention. It is barbaric, there is no nicer way to put it. Any reasonable human would consider it torture. Suggesting that it could ever be a suitable punishment for violating the terms of a visa is ludicrous. If that is the sort of thing that you want to buy into, then I guess all I can say is that the rest of western society is better off without your perspective.
        venus 14y ago
        You exaggerate. It's not a slap on the wrist, no, but calling it torture is a very long stretch indeed. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caning_in_Singapore#Medical_treatment_and_the_effects http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caning_in_Singapore#Medical_tre...
        jlgreco 14y ago
        It is torture. It would be in clear violation of United Nations Convention Against Torture, but Singapore has not signed that. http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=3c9_1304013159 http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=3c9_1304013159 Tell you what, if you think that isn't torture, then you go get caned. If you can tell me it isn't torture afterwards, provided you are not in shock, then I'll take it all back. But if not, then I get to watch you attempt to cram your apologetics up your ruined ass.
        venus 14y ago
        > Tell you what, if you think that isn't torture, then you go get caned Yeah man. Why don't you say "Tell you what, if you think prison isn't inhumane, you go spend 25 years in prison" Way to demand an unreasonable precondition to progress in an argument. Is there a name for this fallacy? Anyway, that video is hard to watch, and I would be sympathetic to an appeal to reduce cane size and weight.
    - olalonde 14y ago
      FWIW, I overstayed my Chinese visa by one day and had to pay a ~90$ fine. I was on my way 5 minutes later.
homosaur 14y ago
Really, then what exactly would you call it? You are essentially subject to all manner of ridiculous punishment for what would be considered minor or non-offenses in most free countries. Most of their elections are uncontested. You can dress it up because their streets are clean and safe, but it's still facism.
- venus 14y ago
  > You are essentially subject to all manner of ridiculous punishment for what would be considered minor or non-offenses in most free countries Like vandalism and petty theft. And just look at how successful those "free countries" have been in addressing those categories of crime! What you call "ridiculous" is simply what you have been conditioned to think, no more. Elsewhere in the world it might be called "effective".
  - homosaur 14y ago
    Fascism is very effective. It's about values and freedom. If you don't care about that, safety is easy.
    - venus 14y ago
      Corporal punishment of petty crimes == fascism. Is that your thesis? I believe you to be quite misinformed in your understanding of fascism, freedom, and everything else. As far as I can see, the only "freedom" on offer in the society you hint at is the freedom to not be punished effectively for your crimes. Please, Americans: if you have to mention the word "freedom" in your argument then you are probably talking shit. Think about it.
      - jlgreco 14y ago
        Are you familiar with Sinclair? I've long been a fan of his definition of the term. As he puts it, fascism is one part capitalism and one part brutality (if I recall correctly I believe he specifies murder, but I think the relation and general sentiment is clear.)
flexie 14y ago
Oh, but Singapore is a police state (a state where the government exercises rigid and oppressive laws). It is also a dictatorship. It may not be the worst of its kind in that it actually has (the thin conception of the) rule of law, but it's not a free country and it lacks decent human rights. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_of_law_doctrine_in_Singapore http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_of_law_doctrine_in_Singapo...
- sleepyhead 14y ago
  You are painting a very dark picture of a country which in practice works better and has less problems than the US.
- lgieron 14y ago
  I think everyone agrees that dictatorship is superior to democracy IF the dictator is (and remains in the future) competent and also a decent human being. Maybe that's the state in Singapore right now?
  - flexie 14y ago
    I don't agree. I'd rather have the - sometimes - incompetent, corrupt and selfish democratically elected politicians of the US or Europe, than the 'benevolent dictator' (even if he existed). I really like the idea of democracy that much. It's not that I don't see your point. Often democracies are inefficient. I just still prefer democracy.
  - sigkill 14y ago
    You're right. I'm listening to the History of Rome, and even they had a dictator appointed during war to 'cut the crap and get on with things' in times of emergency. Time and again, it has been proven that a single benevolent dictator is much better for the country than a democratic system. The only problem is that it's hard to find someone who does not fall into the 'absolute power corrupts absolutely' category, which is why we as a society are rather uncomfortable with the idea of a dictator.
DigitalTurk 14y ago
Well, you don't have free press (the ST is a joke) and you're not allowed to criticize politicians by name. I don't know if it's a police state, but it definitely isn't a free country either.
- ValentineC 14y ago
  There are numerous internet publications where politicians are criticised by name, though many publications self-censor because politicians have often initiated (and won/settled) defamation lawsuits [1]. There have been numerous allegations on the independence and impartiality of the judiciary when it comes to said lawsuits, however [2]. It is true that no printed newspapers may be published in Singapore without a permit [3]. [1] http://therealsingapore.com/content/history-defamation-suits-and-other-similar-actions-singapore http://therealsingapore.com/content/history-defamation-suits... [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judicial_independence_in_Singapore#Defamation_suits http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judicial_independence_in_Singap... [3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Media_of_Singapore#Newspapers http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Media_of_Singapore#Newspapers

It isn't a police state. And in recent years, it has been shown that it isn't corruption-free either.

by hboon 14y ago

It isn't a police state. And in recent years, it has been shown that it isn't corruption-free either.

http://www.state.gov/j/drl/rls/hrrpt/2007/100537.htm http://www.state.gov/j/drl/rls/hrrpt/2007/100537.htm You get caned if you overstay your 90 days.

venus 14y ago
And? How does that have any bearing on the story at hand whatsoever? As an entrepreneur who has seriously considered moving to singapore in the past I am much more interested in what can happen when you do obey their (quite reasonable) laws.
- batgaijin 14y ago
  I think we all know if you're in asia stay as legal as possible. I'm just saying don't make an exception for Singapore.
  - venus 14y ago
    Fair enough. Good advice. I'm trying not to come across as some pro-authoritarianism masochist in this thread but am I really alone in thinking that there's some merit in deciding a set of laws, then enforcing them? Overstay your visa? Is that really a minor crime? Does that happen by accident? When was the last time you "accidentally" stayed more than 90 days in a foreign country? In my country, Australia, you'd be "punished" by being flown home at our expense. Wow. What a deterrent. That'll stop them .. er, using the same passport the next time they try. There are a lot of things to love about western society but the blind adherence to this 1970s "never harm the child" ideology is fucking crap. Corporal punishment works. It's as simple as that. We have dispensed with it in western culture - without an effective alternative - to our loss.
    - jlgreco 14y ago
      Are you familiar with what caning, as performed as intended in Singapore, actually entails? It is not merely the infliction of pain, not some glorified form of spanking, but rather the infliction of bodily injury so severe that it requires immediate medical attention. It is barbaric, there is no nicer way to put it. Any reasonable human would consider it torture. Suggesting that it could ever be a suitable punishment for violating the terms of a visa is ludicrous. If that is the sort of thing that you want to buy into, then I guess all I can say is that the rest of western society is better off without your perspective.
      - venus 14y ago
        You exaggerate. It's not a slap on the wrist, no, but calling it torture is a very long stretch indeed. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caning_in_Singapore#Medical_treatment_and_the_effects http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caning_in_Singapore#Medical_tre...
        jlgreco 14y ago
        It is torture. It would be in clear violation of United Nations Convention Against Torture, but Singapore has not signed that. http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=3c9_1304013159 http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=3c9_1304013159 Tell you what, if you think that isn't torture, then you go get caned. If you can tell me it isn't torture afterwards, provided you are not in shock, then I'll take it all back. But if not, then I get to watch you attempt to cram your apologetics up your ruined ass.
        venus 14y ago
        > Tell you what, if you think that isn't torture, then you go get caned Yeah man. Why don't you say "Tell you what, if you think prison isn't inhumane, you go spend 25 years in prison" Way to demand an unreasonable precondition to progress in an argument. Is there a name for this fallacy? Anyway, that video is hard to watch, and I would be sympathetic to an appeal to reduce cane size and weight.
  - olalonde 14y ago
    FWIW, I overstayed my Chinese visa by one day and had to pay a ~90$ fine. I was on my way 5 minutes later.

homosaur 14y ago

Really, then what exactly would you call it? You are essentially subject to all manner of ridiculous punishment for what would be considered minor or non-offenses in most free countries. Most of their elections are uncontested. You can dress it up because their streets are clean and safe, but it's still facism.

venus 14y ago
> You are essentially subject to all manner of ridiculous punishment for what would be considered minor or non-offenses in most free countries Like vandalism and petty theft. And just look at how successful those "free countries" have been in addressing those categories of crime! What you call "ridiculous" is simply what you have been conditioned to think, no more. Elsewhere in the world it might be called "effective".
- homosaur 14y ago
  Fascism is very effective. It's about values and freedom. If you don't care about that, safety is easy.
  - venus 14y ago
    Corporal punishment of petty crimes == fascism. Is that your thesis? I believe you to be quite misinformed in your understanding of fascism, freedom, and everything else. As far as I can see, the only "freedom" on offer in the society you hint at is the freedom to not be punished effectively for your crimes. Please, Americans: if you have to mention the word "freedom" in your argument then you are probably talking shit. Think about it.
    - jlgreco 14y ago
      Are you familiar with Sinclair? I've long been a fan of his definition of the term. As he puts it, fascism is one part capitalism and one part brutality (if I recall correctly I believe he specifies murder, but I think the relation and general sentiment is clear.)

flexie 14y ago

Oh, but Singapore is a police state (a state where the government exercises rigid and oppressive laws). It is also a dictatorship. It may not be the worst of its kind in that it actually has (the thin conception of the) rule of law, but it's not a free country and it lacks decent human rights. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_of_law_doctrine_in_Singapore http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_of_law_doctrine_in_Singapo...

sleepyhead 14y ago
You are painting a very dark picture of a country which in practice works better and has less problems than the US.
lgieron 14y ago
I think everyone agrees that dictatorship is superior to democracy IF the dictator is (and remains in the future) competent and also a decent human being. Maybe that's the state in Singapore right now?
- flexie 14y ago
  I don't agree. I'd rather have the - sometimes - incompetent, corrupt and selfish democratically elected politicians of the US or Europe, than the 'benevolent dictator' (even if he existed). I really like the idea of democracy that much. It's not that I don't see your point. Often democracies are inefficient. I just still prefer democracy.
- sigkill 14y ago
  You're right. I'm listening to the History of Rome, and even they had a dictator appointed during war to 'cut the crap and get on with things' in times of emergency. Time and again, it has been proven that a single benevolent dictator is much better for the country than a democratic system. The only problem is that it's hard to find someone who does not fall into the 'absolute power corrupts absolutely' category, which is why we as a society are rather uncomfortable with the idea of a dictator.

DigitalTurk 14y ago

Well, you don't have free press (the ST is a joke) and you're not allowed to criticize politicians by name. I don't know if it's a police state, but it definitely isn't a free country either.

ValentineC 14y ago
There are numerous internet publications where politicians are criticised by name, though many publications self-censor because politicians have often initiated (and won/settled) defamation lawsuits [1]. There have been numerous allegations on the independence and impartiality of the judiciary when it comes to said lawsuits, however [2]. It is true that no printed newspapers may be published in Singapore without a permit [3]. [1] http://therealsingapore.com/content/history-defamation-suits-and-other-similar-actions-singapore http://therealsingapore.com/content/history-defamation-suits... [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judicial_independence_in_Singapore#Defamation_suits http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judicial_independence_in_Singap... [3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Media_of_Singapore#Newspapers http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Media_of_Singapore#Newspapers