7 ms·
Wow... that is beyond weird. From what I've read I always thought Singapore was quite the corrupt-free police state.
by batgaijin 14y ago
Wow... that is beyond weird. From what I've read I always thought Singapore was quite the corrupt-free police state.
- hboon 14y agoIt isn't a police state. And in recent years, it has been shown that it isn't corruption-free either.
- batgaijin 14y agohttp://www.state.gov/j/drl/rls/hrrpt/2007/100537.htm http://www.state.gov/j/drl/rls/hrrpt/2007/100537.htm You get caned if you overstay your 90 days.
- venus 14y agoAnd? How does that have any bearing on the story at hand whatsoever? As an entrepreneur who has seriously considered moving to singapore in the past I am much more interested in what can happen when you do obey their (quite reasonable) laws.
- batgaijin 14y agoI think we all know if you're in asia stay as legal as possible. I'm just saying don't make an exception for Singapore.
- venus 14y agoFair enough. Good advice. I'm trying not to come across as some pro-authoritarianism masochist in this thread but am I really alone in thinking that there's some merit in deciding a set of laws, then enforcing them? Overstay your visa? Is that really a minor crime? Does that happen by accident? When was the last time you "accidentally" stayed more than 90 days in a foreign country? In my country, Australia, you'd be "punished" by being flown home at our expense. Wow. What a deterrent. That'll stop them .. er, using the same passport the next time they try. There are a lot of things to love about western society but the blind adherence to this 1970s "never harm the child" ideology is fucking crap. Corporal punishment works. It's as simple as that. We have dispensed with it in western culture - without an effective alternative - to our loss.
- jlgreco 14y agoAre you familiar with what caning, as performed as intended in Singapore, actually entails? It is not merely the infliction of pain, not some glorified form of spanking, but rather the infliction of bodily injury so severe that it requires immediate medical attention. It is barbaric, there is no nicer way to put it. Any reasonable human would consider it torture. Suggesting that it could ever be a suitable punishment for violating the terms of a visa is ludicrous. If that is the sort of thing that you want to buy into, then I guess all I can say is that the rest of western society is better off without your perspective.
- venus 14y agoYou exaggerate. It's not a slap on the wrist, no, but calling it torture is a very long stretch indeed. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caning_in_Singapore#Medical_treatment_and_the_effects http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caning_in_Singapore#Medical_tre...
- jlgreco 14y agoIt is torture. It would be in clear violation of United Nations Convention Against Torture, but Singapore has not signed that. http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=3c9_1304013159 http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=3c9_1304013159 Tell you what, if you think that isn't torture, then you go get caned. If you can tell me it isn't torture afterwards, provided you are not in shock, then I'll take it all back. But if not, then I get to watch you attempt to cram your apologetics up your ruined ass.
- venus 14y ago> Tell you what, if you think that isn't torture, then you go get caned Yeah man. Why don't you say "Tell you what, if you think prison isn't inhumane, you go spend 25 years in prison" Way to demand an unreasonable precondition to progress in an argument. Is there a name for this fallacy? Anyway, that video is hard to watch, and I would be sympathetic to an appeal to reduce cane size and weight.
- olalonde 14y agoFWIW, I overstayed my Chinese visa by one day and had to pay a ~90$ fine. I was on my way 5 minutes later.
- homosaur 14y agoReally, then what exactly would you call it? You are essentially subject to all manner of ridiculous punishment for what would be considered minor or non-offenses in most free countries. Most of their elections are uncontested. You can dress it up because their streets are clean and safe, but it's still facism.
- venus 14y ago> You are essentially subject to all manner of ridiculous punishment for what would be considered minor or non-offenses in most free countries Like vandalism and petty theft. And just look at how successful those "free countries" have been in addressing those categories of crime! What you call "ridiculous" is simply what you have been conditioned to think, no more. Elsewhere in the world it might be called "effective".
- homosaur 14y agoFascism is very effective. It's about values and freedom. If you don't care about that, safety is easy.
- venus 14y agoCorporal punishment of petty crimes == fascism. Is that your thesis? I believe you to be quite misinformed in your understanding of fascism, freedom, and everything else. As far as I can see, the only "freedom" on offer in the society you hint at is the freedom to not be punished effectively for your crimes. Please, Americans: if you have to mention the word "freedom" in your argument then you are probably talking shit. Think about it.
- jlgreco 14y agoAre you familiar with Sinclair? I've long been a fan of his definition of the term. As he puts it, fascism is one part capitalism and one part brutality (if I recall correctly I believe he specifies murder, but I think the relation and general sentiment is clear.)
- flexie 14y agoOh, but Singapore is a police state (a state where the government exercises rigid and oppressive laws). It is also a dictatorship. It may not be the worst of its kind in that it actually has (the thin conception of the) rule of law, but it's not a free country and it lacks decent human rights. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_of_law_doctrine_in_Singapore http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_of_law_doctrine_in_Singapo...
- sleepyhead 14y agoYou are painting a very dark picture of a country which in practice works better and has less problems than the US.
- lgieron 14y agoI think everyone agrees that dictatorship is superior to democracy IF the dictator is (and remains in the future) competent and also a decent human being. Maybe that's the state in Singapore right now?
- flexie 14y agoI don't agree. I'd rather have the - sometimes - incompetent, corrupt and selfish democratically elected politicians of the US or Europe, than the 'benevolent dictator' (even if he existed). I really like the idea of democracy that much. It's not that I don't see your point. Often democracies are inefficient. I just still prefer democracy.
- sigkill 14y agoYou're right. I'm listening to the History of Rome, and even they had a dictator appointed during war to 'cut the crap and get on with things' in times of emergency. Time and again, it has been proven that a single benevolent dictator is much better for the country than a democratic system. The only problem is that it's hard to find someone who does not fall into the 'absolute power corrupts absolutely' category, which is why we as a society are rather uncomfortable with the idea of a dictator.
- DigitalTurk 14y agoWell, you don't have free press (the ST is a joke) and you're not allowed to criticize politicians by name. I don't know if it's a police state, but it definitely isn't a free country either.
- ValentineC 14y agoThere are numerous internet publications where politicians are criticised by name, though many publications self-censor because politicians have often initiated (and won/settled) defamation lawsuits [1]. There have been numerous allegations on the independence and impartiality of the judiciary when it comes to said lawsuits, however [2]. It is true that no printed newspapers may be published in Singapore without a permit [3]. [1] http://therealsingapore.com/content/history-defamation-suits-and-other-similar-actions-singapore http://therealsingapore.com/content/history-defamation-suits... [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judicial_independence_in_Singapore#Defamation_suits http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judicial_independence_in_Singap... [3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Media_of_Singapore#Newspapers http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Media_of_Singapore#Newspapers
- throwawaysnipe 14y agoSome replies to parent dispute the 'police state' moniker. Decide for yourself: (Source: http://www.hrw.org/world-report/2013/country-chapters/singapore http://www.hrw.org/world-report/2013/country-chapters/singap... . Points below are all direct quotes) * Singapore's Internal Security Act (ISA) and Criminal Law (Temporary Provisions) Act permit the authorities to arrest and detain suspects for virtually unlimited periods of time without charge or judicial review. * The Misuse of Drugs Act permits the authorities to confine suspected drug users in "rehabilitation" centers for up to three years without trial. * Outdoor gatherings of five or more persons still require police permits. The city-state's Speakers Corner -- where people may demonstrate, perform, and hold exhibitions -- remains the only outdoor space where uncensored speech is allowed in the country. * The Singaporean government and senior government officials have frequently brought charges of "scandalizing the court," criminal and civil defamation, and sedition to silence and even bankrupt its critics. * Singapore's 208,000 foreign domestic workers are still excluded from the Employment Act and key labor protections, such as limits on daily work hours. * Human rights defenders in Singapore risk being fined, imprisoned, bankrupted, and banned from traveling outside the country without government approval.
- wilfra 14y agoWhile these aren't good, they don't refute the commonly held belief that Singapore is essentially free from corruption. Human rights is another issue and on this they do very badly. They are among the worst places in the World to get arrested for basically anything and they have harsh laws that restrict all sorts of personal freedoms. But that's not corruption.
- PeterisP 14y agoWell, the article in no way actually implies corruption. If the men in power decided that Shane's death needed to be covered up, and the men in uniforms followed orders - then that is exactly how a non-corrupt police state works; you have strict order but that order doesn't neccessarily favor the people. A corrupt state would have the relevant police officer be bribed individually and/or extracting favors from the relatives; corruption requires weak structure, where the system is centralised in theory but decentralised in practice, as decisions are made or changed by corrupt officials. But if the authority decides to do an evil thing and the system executes it without question - then that's a perfect example of an efficient, noncorrupt police state that achieves it's goals and spits at the costs.
- aerique 14y agoI do not think it possible to have a corrupt-free police state.
- PeterisP 14y agoNot trying to invoke Godwin's law, but AFAIK both Stalin and Hitler had police states with rather little corruption; certainly far less corruption than nowadays Russia or mid-Africa.
- homosaur 14y agoBut those aren't police states at all, Russia and Central Africa. They are very poorly organized and great parts of the countries are lawless. They may have authoritarian governments but those governments have limited authority to enact things. And with Stalin/Hitler, you'd also have to look at the neighboring historical eras. For all you know Germany historically was also very non-corrupt. (not a challenge, if you do know, please speak!)
- znowi 14y ago> They may have authoritarian governments but those governments have limited authority to enact things. Corruption is an integral part of the system in those countries. It is not that respective governments have limited authority (quite otherwise in actuality) - they allow this to happen. It is how they function. What you perceive as lawlessness is a normal (desired) state of affairs. If, for instance, you're a honest law enforcement official or a dutiful member of the parliament, you will not fit in and will have to either accept the rules of the system or be expelled (imprisoned or killed if you're stubborn).
- st0p 14y ago> And with Stalin/Hitler, you'd also have to look at the neighboring historical eras. For all you know Germany historically was also very non-corrupt. (not a challenge, if you do know, please speak!) Doesn't matter, this still refutes the original statement.
- 14y ago
- epsylon 14y agoThis isn't corruption if they're following orders from above.
- _quasimodo 14y agoI think they are just corrupt on a much higher level. Sure, you might not have everyday bribery, but if a big company chooses to fuck you they will not have a problem with closing both eyes for a minute.