9 ms·

Like another commenter on this thread, I've lived in the Haight for the past nine years. And while the article is interesting and informative, it doesn't quite

by dewitt 14y ago

Like another commenter on this thread, I've lived in the Haight for the past nine years. And while the article is interesting and informative, it doesn't quite paint a full picture (literally—the pictures aren't representative, that girl is not a typical street kid by a long shot, she hasn't slept a day outside in her life. Think camo and combat boots and pit bulls, not peace signs and hacky sacks) of the underside of the street kid scene. There is also a quite a bit of violence and a lot of negativity to be had, both to each other, and to the community that they're visiting. I see the street kids as guests in our extended home. When everyone is peaceful and respectful I don't really have an issue. But when they are violent, or a health risk (defecation on the sidewalk and on the stoops is a real concern, and it happens all day every day), or harass my family or my neighbors, I do take issue, and believe we need to set and enforce limits for the safety of everyone. As far as it being a lifestyle _choice_ for some. Indeed it is. But not for all. It's a spectrum. Overall it's a good article, but it's not the whole story. Edit: And to the author, try walking around and doing those interviews after dark some night. The perspective would be ... different.

dewitt 14y ago
And judging from the other comments, people who have no first-hand exposure to this enviroment are simply eating the article up, believing they have the full story. I'd invite anyone who is prepared to generalize about street kid culture based on this one article alone to spend just one /evening/ walking around Haight and Stanyan. Head into the park a ways. You don't have to go more than 50 yards. I guarantee you take back many of the things you've said on this thread.
- yid 14y ago
  Reading the article, I pretty much had the exact same thoughts. It really seemed like the writer had a particular feel-good story in mind ("hippies still live in the Haight!") and went out there trying to find it. The error in the article is casting the entire scene as the same slice of peace-n-love that is espoused in the story, leaving aside -- as you say -- the things that happen after dark. Serious mental illness, the sexual risks inherent in being homeless, run-ins with gangs, disease and the worsening of any future prospects as the "tree of life" is embraced. I was once similarly enamored with the hippy scene and dated a flower child for quite some time, even visited the commune in Lake county that she grew up in, etc. There is a distinctly darker side of the whole experience whose surface is not even scratched by this article.
  - barce 14y ago
    I think the point of the article is that it's not as bad, or their word, "Dickensian," as people think. The article is missing some hard numbers: how many are choosing the lifestyle? How many of those that do are engaging in criminal / disruptive activity? It's pretty cool you got to check out a commune in Lake county.
    - yid 14y ago
      > It's pretty cool you got to check out a commune in Lake county. It was a little creepy, to be honest. They have pictorial banners up in the woods, without any words. I was only allowed into the bookshop, and every single book and CD was by the commune leader. Every single one. Edit: I'll add some detail here since people seem to be interested. Lake County is a very, very remote area a few hours north of San Francisco. The commune has been functional since the 60s, sucking up its members' wealth in exchange for living under the direction of a charismatic leader. While a generation lived under this leader's direction, their children suffered the brunt of the eccentricity and thoughtlessness that the era inculcated. The one incident that I recall hearing about is when several children (including the person I was dating) in the 8-12 age range were randomly ordered to live with different parents on a whim, and the families complied. A significant fraction of the kids of that generation are somewhat screwed up, with causes ranging from heroin addiction to the effects of sexual abuse as children. It put a very dark tint on the rainbow of the 60s for me.
      - php_on_rails2 14y ago
        It's really easy to get into one of those communes. There are tons of messageboards if you know where to look. For all their back to nature blather, they love their resource-sucking smartphones as much as you and I. The best argument for their "conservation" is really selfishness in disguise. Let's save this unraped land for future generations... to exploit for rare earth minerals. Honestly, outer space is the only way out.
  - wyclif 14y ago
    Whenever I read the good, realist observations of the dark underbelly of hippy culture, I always think of the movie "Easy Rider" which explored some of that effectively.
- php_on_rails2 14y ago
  And how! San Francisco has huge problems with drug addiction, open your eyes people. Really painful seeing kids from good families living without hope. Homelessness is a big problem. And it stinks. The bus can't get here soon enough some days.
rdouble 14y ago
The writer was duped. There is quite a chasm between the flower child from Novato coming down for the weekend to trade peace patches for shrooms and the addict gutter punk types who live there permanently.
- redwood 14y ago
  True tho perhaps you need some folks closer to the edge to ensure the avail of substances people further out won't touch en masse. Ultimately some edge players are needed to give everyone access which ensures the greater scene. Legalize and this wouldn't need to be the case
- juan_juarez 14y ago
  Those people are scary. The writer might have actually had to work at getting his story, rather than collecting anecdotes from those that have romanticized the lifestyle.
  - php_on_rails2 14y ago
    Why are they allowed on the sidewalk? If these gutter trash want to clog up the streets, they can take their chances in Oakland. SF passed a sit-lie measure a few years ago specifically to target this problem. Guess they got the "lie" part right.
moxie 14y ago
I'm curious to know why you see them as a guest in your home, rather than the other way around?
- dewitt 14y ago
  Are you genuinely curious, or trolling? I'll answer sincerely if you don't understand.
  - nkurz 14y ago
    Hi Dewitt -- I presume Moxie's genuine. I'm not quite sure how to interpret his question, but I'd like to hear more of your thoughts. --nate
    - dewitt 14y ago
      Hey Nate! The way I see it is that we're all guests in any new environment when we first get there. Over time, after investing love blood sweat energy tears, these places gradually become our homes. Sometimes it feels like it happens fast, sometimes it feels like it takes forever. Sometimes we are embraced by whomever is there before. Sometimes we're not and we displace (ask me how I felt moving to Avenue D back in the day). Sometimes we're not and we're the ones displaced. For me personally, the Haight didn't start feeling at all like home for quite a long time. Years. But over time I started recognizing the shopowners. Getting to know them, their names, where they lived, what was on their mind. And my neighbors (those that stay long enough to get to know). And the cops (on the rare occasion you saw one). And the postal carrier. And the street cleaning crew. Etc. And, especially relevant to this thread, I began to recognize the local transients. I might see a handful guys over and over again who have been walking the streets of our neighborhood for a decade or more. (Which I guess technically makes them in-transient, but they're likely not under the same roof every night like I am.) This is their home, too. But what I don't see is the same faces among the street kids. I see new kids every day. They're here one day, gone the next. It's rare that I'd see a kid last a week. Maybe a handful I've seen come back after a year or two. But that's the exception, not the norm. So my point about it being "our extended home" is that, after these many years, love or hate the Haight, it has become my home, and it is the home for the others that have invested something of their lives in our neighborhood. For most of these street kids, the ones the author is writing about, the ones that I see every day, they don't consider it home. They don't treat it as their home. But I do. And so do my neighbors. Does that explain it a bit better? Edit: Moxie in another comment mentions the (true) squatter scene, which is a very important (and itself diverse) subculture to recognize. I agree completely. I'd suggest that the Haight is also their home as much as it is mine. Hell, a million times moreso if we're talking actual blood sweat and tears.
hindsightbias 14y ago
Relevant: http://www.hanc-sf.org/next-meeting/the-homeless-bill-of-rights.html http://www.hanc-sf.org/next-meeting/the-homeless-bill-of-rig... Tonight.
- SilasX 14y ago
  "The bill helps protect homeless people from discrimination in employment, ..." |face-palm|
  - bcoates 14y ago
    There appears to be some goofy stuff in there, but giving them somewhere to defecate so they don't do it where I'd like to walk would be worth every penny. This is basic public health stuff.
    - spitx 14y ago
      We're rivaling some sub-continental regions in open defecation densities. The Mission comes a close third to the Haight and the Tenderloin. Perhaps Mr. Dorsey is attending to the wrong neighborhoods. https://twitter.com/jack/status/289809936421109760 https://twitter.com/jack/status/289809936421109760
njudah 14y ago
I'm also a long time resident of the neighborhood, and agree with my neighbors sentiments - the article is interesting and informative, but in no way speaks to the day to day (or more importantly, night to night) life of interactions between the local homeless and the rest of the community. As an example, the sit/lie measure was in part prompted by a violent attack on a local resident. And if you've every walked down Haight with a woman (or are one yourself), the obscenities and outright harassment that the less flowery members of the homeless community will offer will shock you.
php_on_rails 14y ago
Wow! This article really hits home. I had never seen (or smelled!) a homeless person before moving from Nebraska to SF. But here it seems like they are everywhere! I stay out of the Tenderloin at night, hope they move the symphony someplace safe. Are these the people responsible for the shootings in the Mission? Really scared about how these kids are in gangs and have turf wars. They don't look like the media's portrayal of gangbangers, not that I trust the news. Does anyone know if there are any black people left in SF? I know there are some left in Hunters Point, but I heard the housing projects are getting bulldozed soon. Why waste such valuable property on poor people/freeloaders?
php_on_rails2 14y ago
So right about SF after dark. Are these street kids responsible for all the shootings in the Mission? Wouldn't be surprised what these kids will do for drugs. Sad. I had never seen (or smelled!) a homeless person until I moved from my dumb one-stoplight town in Nebraska out to SF. But this place is crawling with them! Free advice to anyone thinking working in high tech is all roses. Kind of surprised that there aren't more black people around. Heard they were a problem in the 60s. So where did they go? I heard there were some housing projects in Hunters Point, but they're getting bulldozed soon. Why waste such valuable property on freeloading poor people? Oakland is a scary place. Hope this "street problem" isn't the start of a slippery slope.
specialist 14y ago
From the OP: "But they all stayed for the same reason: They found a community..." Ridiculous. As a youth, I had a lot of contact with homeless teens. (I was bounced around a lot, but not quite homeless.) Many were kicked out (homosexual), many more were escaping (domestic violence, pedophilia, rape), a few were "free spirits" (or merely didn't feel the need to share their stories). My SO volunteers at a local homeless teen shelter. The kids she encounters have had terrible lives thus far. Not many happy stories there. My city tries to do more than the norm for homeless people. Women, children, teens, vets, mentally ill. It's an uphill battle. The ones that are just down on their luck have the tools and resources to bounce back. The rest aren't so fortunate. In addition to your suggestion, the author should volunteer at a shelter or mission. As a rule, the people we see are just a fraction of the homeless, the panhandlers an even smaller percentage.

by dewitt 14y ago

dewitt 14y ago

And judging from the other comments, people who have no first-hand exposure to this enviroment are simply eating the article up, believing they have the full story. I'd invite anyone who is prepared to generalize about street kid culture based on this one article alone to spend just one /evening/ walking around Haight and Stanyan. Head into the park a ways. You don't have to go more than 50 yards. I guarantee you take back many of the things you've said on this thread.

yid 14y ago
Reading the article, I pretty much had the exact same thoughts. It really seemed like the writer had a particular feel-good story in mind ("hippies still live in the Haight!") and went out there trying to find it. The error in the article is casting the entire scene as the same slice of peace-n-love that is espoused in the story, leaving aside -- as you say -- the things that happen after dark. Serious mental illness, the sexual risks inherent in being homeless, run-ins with gangs, disease and the worsening of any future prospects as the "tree of life" is embraced. I was once similarly enamored with the hippy scene and dated a flower child for quite some time, even visited the commune in Lake county that she grew up in, etc. There is a distinctly darker side of the whole experience whose surface is not even scratched by this article.
- barce 14y ago
  I think the point of the article is that it's not as bad, or their word, "Dickensian," as people think. The article is missing some hard numbers: how many are choosing the lifestyle? How many of those that do are engaging in criminal / disruptive activity? It's pretty cool you got to check out a commune in Lake county.
  - yid 14y ago
    > It's pretty cool you got to check out a commune in Lake county. It was a little creepy, to be honest. They have pictorial banners up in the woods, without any words. I was only allowed into the bookshop, and every single book and CD was by the commune leader. Every single one. Edit: I'll add some detail here since people seem to be interested. Lake County is a very, very remote area a few hours north of San Francisco. The commune has been functional since the 60s, sucking up its members' wealth in exchange for living under the direction of a charismatic leader. While a generation lived under this leader's direction, their children suffered the brunt of the eccentricity and thoughtlessness that the era inculcated. The one incident that I recall hearing about is when several children (including the person I was dating) in the 8-12 age range were randomly ordered to live with different parents on a whim, and the families complied. A significant fraction of the kids of that generation are somewhat screwed up, with causes ranging from heroin addiction to the effects of sexual abuse as children. It put a very dark tint on the rainbow of the 60s for me.
    - php_on_rails2 14y ago
      It's really easy to get into one of those communes. There are tons of messageboards if you know where to look. For all their back to nature blather, they love their resource-sucking smartphones as much as you and I. The best argument for their "conservation" is really selfishness in disguise. Let's save this unraped land for future generations... to exploit for rare earth minerals. Honestly, outer space is the only way out.
- wyclif 14y ago
  Whenever I read the good, realist observations of the dark underbelly of hippy culture, I always think of the movie "Easy Rider" which explored some of that effectively.
php_on_rails2 14y ago
And how! San Francisco has huge problems with drug addiction, open your eyes people. Really painful seeing kids from good families living without hope. Homelessness is a big problem. And it stinks. The bus can't get here soon enough some days.

rdouble 14y ago

The writer was duped. There is quite a chasm between the flower child from Novato coming down for the weekend to trade peace patches for shrooms and the addict gutter punk types who live there permanently.

redwood 14y ago
True tho perhaps you need some folks closer to the edge to ensure the avail of substances people further out won't touch en masse. Ultimately some edge players are needed to give everyone access which ensures the greater scene. Legalize and this wouldn't need to be the case
juan_juarez 14y ago
Those people are scary. The writer might have actually had to work at getting his story, rather than collecting anecdotes from those that have romanticized the lifestyle.
- php_on_rails2 14y ago
  Why are they allowed on the sidewalk? If these gutter trash want to clog up the streets, they can take their chances in Oakland. SF passed a sit-lie measure a few years ago specifically to target this problem. Guess they got the "lie" part right.

moxie 14y ago

I'm curious to know why you see them as a guest in your home, rather than the other way around?

dewitt 14y ago
Are you genuinely curious, or trolling? I'll answer sincerely if you don't understand.
- nkurz 14y ago
  Hi Dewitt -- I presume Moxie's genuine. I'm not quite sure how to interpret his question, but I'd like to hear more of your thoughts. --nate
  - dewitt 14y ago
    Hey Nate! The way I see it is that we're all guests in any new environment when we first get there. Over time, after investing love blood sweat energy tears, these places gradually become our homes. Sometimes it feels like it happens fast, sometimes it feels like it takes forever. Sometimes we are embraced by whomever is there before. Sometimes we're not and we displace (ask me how I felt moving to Avenue D back in the day). Sometimes we're not and we're the ones displaced. For me personally, the Haight didn't start feeling at all like home for quite a long time. Years. But over time I started recognizing the shopowners. Getting to know them, their names, where they lived, what was on their mind. And my neighbors (those that stay long enough to get to know). And the cops (on the rare occasion you saw one). And the postal carrier. And the street cleaning crew. Etc. And, especially relevant to this thread, I began to recognize the local transients. I might see a handful guys over and over again who have been walking the streets of our neighborhood for a decade or more. (Which I guess technically makes them in-transient, but they're likely not under the same roof every night like I am.) This is their home, too. But what I don't see is the same faces among the street kids. I see new kids every day. They're here one day, gone the next. It's rare that I'd see a kid last a week. Maybe a handful I've seen come back after a year or two. But that's the exception, not the norm. So my point about it being "our extended home" is that, after these many years, love or hate the Haight, it has become my home, and it is the home for the others that have invested something of their lives in our neighborhood. For most of these street kids, the ones the author is writing about, the ones that I see every day, they don't consider it home. They don't treat it as their home. But I do. And so do my neighbors. Does that explain it a bit better? Edit: Moxie in another comment mentions the (true) squatter scene, which is a very important (and itself diverse) subculture to recognize. I agree completely. I'd suggest that the Haight is also their home as much as it is mine. Hell, a million times moreso if we're talking actual blood sweat and tears.

hindsightbias 14y ago

Relevant: http://www.hanc-sf.org/next-meeting/the-homeless-bill-of-rights.html http://www.hanc-sf.org/next-meeting/the-homeless-bill-of-rig... Tonight.

SilasX 14y ago
"The bill helps protect homeless people from discrimination in employment, ..." |face-palm|
- bcoates 14y ago
  There appears to be some goofy stuff in there, but giving them somewhere to defecate so they don't do it where I'd like to walk would be worth every penny. This is basic public health stuff.
  - spitx 14y ago
    We're rivaling some sub-continental regions in open defecation densities. The Mission comes a close third to the Haight and the Tenderloin. Perhaps Mr. Dorsey is attending to the wrong neighborhoods. https://twitter.com/jack/status/289809936421109760 https://twitter.com/jack/status/289809936421109760

njudah 14y ago

I'm also a long time resident of the neighborhood, and agree with my neighbors sentiments - the article is interesting and informative, but in no way speaks to the day to day (or more importantly, night to night) life of interactions between the local homeless and the rest of the community. As an example, the sit/lie measure was in part prompted by a violent attack on a local resident. And if you've every walked down Haight with a woman (or are one yourself), the obscenities and outright harassment that the less flowery members of the homeless community will offer will shock you.

php_on_rails 14y ago

Wow! This article really hits home. I had never seen (or smelled!) a homeless person before moving from Nebraska to SF. But here it seems like they are everywhere! I stay out of the Tenderloin at night, hope they move the symphony someplace safe. Are these the people responsible for the shootings in the Mission? Really scared about how these kids are in gangs and have turf wars. They don't look like the media's portrayal of gangbangers, not that I trust the news. Does anyone know if there are any black people left in SF? I know there are some left in Hunters Point, but I heard the housing projects are getting bulldozed soon. Why waste such valuable property on poor people/freeloaders?

php_on_rails2 14y ago

So right about SF after dark. Are these street kids responsible for all the shootings in the Mission? Wouldn't be surprised what these kids will do for drugs. Sad. I had never seen (or smelled!) a homeless person until I moved from my dumb one-stoplight town in Nebraska out to SF. But this place is crawling with them! Free advice to anyone thinking working in high tech is all roses. Kind of surprised that there aren't more black people around. Heard they were a problem in the 60s. So where did they go? I heard there were some housing projects in Hunters Point, but they're getting bulldozed soon. Why waste such valuable property on freeloading poor people? Oakland is a scary place. Hope this "street problem" isn't the start of a slippery slope.

specialist 14y ago

From the OP: "But they all stayed for the same reason: They found a community..." Ridiculous. As a youth, I had a lot of contact with homeless teens. (I was bounced around a lot, but not quite homeless.) Many were kicked out (homosexual), many more were escaping (domestic violence, pedophilia, rape), a few were "free spirits" (or merely didn't feel the need to share their stories). My SO volunteers at a local homeless teen shelter. The kids she encounters have had terrible lives thus far. Not many happy stories there. My city tries to do more than the norm for homeless people. Women, children, teens, vets, mentally ill. It's an uphill battle. The ones that are just down on their luck have the tools and resources to bounce back. The rest aren't so fortunate. In addition to your suggestion, the author should volunteer at a shelter or mission. As a rule, the people we see are just a fraction of the homeless, the panhandlers an even smaller percentage.