24 ms·

Website Impounded

202 points by ssclafani 14y ago

mischanix 14y ago
Archived the source for when this inevitably is reverted: https://gist.github.com/anonymous/4955465 https://gist.github.com/anonymous/4955465 The page embeds http://clients.frankjonen.com/fitnesssf http://clients.frankjonen.com/fitnesssf in a frame.
- feverishaaron 14y ago
  Did you consult an attorney before doing this? I'm curious what the ramifications are. Back in my boutique days, we were stiffed several times, but I never wanted to pull a stunt like this for fear of legal retribution. Instead, I hired some very good collectors, and had a stipulation in my contract that the customer was required to pay collection fees for invoices over 60 days late. This resulted in my company getting paid in full all but twice.
  - mischanix 14y ago
    Ah, I'm not the one who did this; and as an American, I never would--easier to resolve it more traditionally. However, the client being American and the firm being European, I can see how this became the option of choice.
    - delwin 14y ago
      That seems a little prejudiced. I know Americans who would do this. That doesn't make them less American. I know Germans who wouldn't. That doesn't make them not German. No generalizations, thank you.
      - Jemaclus 14y ago
        It's not a generalization. He's saying that since he's American, he's "local" and can challenge it in American courts, while the firm who built this site is European and cannot (as easily). It's much more difficult for a European to sue an American company for failed payments.
      - mischanix 14y ago
        I was referring to the fact that the contract was international, not to the nationalities of either party.
      - swampthing 14y ago
        Might be mis-reading, but I took his comment to mean just that it would be harder for an international company to resolve this through the court system here in the US (and thus other approaches become more attractive).
      - deleted 14y ago
        [deleted]
boksiora 14y ago
Good man i like it. If you let them go they will never learn
bitcartel 14y ago
What did the site look like before? Can't find anything in the Wayback Machine.
- piyush_soni 14y ago
  Google's cached image for this website shows this: http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/6597/fitnesssf.png http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/6597/fitnesssf.png
- cody_bonney 14y ago
  They posted some screenshots (along with some ranting) at http://talent.adweek.com/gallery/Fitness-SF-Website/7075381 http://talent.adweek.com/gallery/Fitness-SF-Website/7075381
robotjosh 14y ago
I wouldn't change anyone's website to say they haven't paid a bill. It won't let you collect any easier and you might get sued and lose. At some point you have to say no more work until we get settled up to this point.
- EToS 14y ago
  Agree entirely with this.. often i take 30% up front, 30% when prototyped, and final 40% payment upon delivery
  - PotatoEngineer 14y ago
    Can you live on 60%? That is, how hard is it if a large customer decides to ignore that last payment?
    - chrismsnz 14y ago
      Then it doesn't get delivered. EDIT: Having the "finished" site on a test host (or even just a temporary DNS name) until the final payment seems like a shrewd move. The work is complete, but if you don't get final payment it doesn't go live.
- raylu 14y ago
  I suspect he has given up on collecting.
seyfarth 14y ago
This is unprofessional.
- damm 14y ago
  I would suggest that what the original customer did was theft. They would still be reaping the profits of their thievery had not stopped it. Legality is the hard part, which is likely why this company went the way it did. Most people would prefer a 'This site is down due to non-payment' or a 'we are down'. That's trying to swim upstream without a paddle, this is slippery enough without trying to on the right side.
  - danielweber 14y ago
    I have no pity for fitnesssf, but that doesn't mean that the creator's actions are okay. (I'm not sure they aren't okay, either.)
- etchalon 14y ago
  And yet so very, very awesome.
  - mxxx 14y ago
    absolutely. i used to dream about doing something like this to asshat clients i had when i was starting out. it's kind of like the designer equivalent of quitting your desk job by kicking your monitor onto the floor and walking out giving everyone the finger. XD
- damm 14y ago
  Do remember, they are in a foreign country. Have you tried to sue someone outside of your country? It's not cheap nor easy.
- prawn 14y ago
  From the developer or the client? I have little sympathy for clients who are given countless opportunities to pay their bills and yet keep ignoring them.
nobodysfool 14y ago
I'm pretty sure calling them 'thieves' is libel.
jstalin 14y ago
That web designer turned a contract issue into a potential tortious interference issue -- against him.
- tptacek 14y ago
  Is the claim here really tortious interference? Or is it conversion? Or something else? Taking down a deadbeat client's website if they're entirely in breach of the contract that created it seems like it would be reasonable, but I agree that hosting a new website in its place to broadcast a grievance is probably a bad idea. I had fairly complicated Python and C code I'm reviewing coming out of my ears so I did some research on this to clear my head. I couldn't find any solid answers. I'd be interested in hearing one from a lawyer, because this comes up on HN every now and then. Back to code review for me. Wish me luck.
  - dfxm12 14y ago
    In a perfect world, there would be clauses in the contract explaining what happens when there is a failure to pay. Of course, we have no idea if there even is a contract.
    - jstalin 14y ago
      There certainly is a contract, even if it was oral, the question is what were the terms of the contract. Likely there were no terms dealing with what happens if there is no payment.
      - dfxm12 14y ago
        Do you know for a fact? This is a San Francisco based company working with a German company. If they were both US based, you'd be correct for sure.
        jstalin 14y ago
        You might not realize that just sending an email to a design company saying "Please design us a web site and we'll pay you $500" creates a contract (assuming the design company responds and says "ok!"). I doubt the design company would have gotten started without any kind of price term being set.
EToS 14y ago
I can empathise with this a lot, but would not recommend going this far, if nothing other than for your own reputation and professionalism. Other clients could see this without fully understanding the situation, potentially losing business. In previous cases ive been involved in, taking down the site sending in debt collectors is often the easiest and cleanest method of getting back your money.
- aroberge 14y ago
  Can this be done easily from a different country - as this is the case here?
- mgkimsal 14y ago
  " if nothing other than for your own reputation and professionalism"... And the professionalism of fitnesssf - of not paying their vendors - gets swept under the rug for dozens of other vendors to have to discover on their own, individually, in silence. Great. "Professionalism" really has to work both ways. If you want me to treat you professionally, treat me professionally. What lines does someone have to cross before they lose that professionalism from you? Financial abuse? Emotional abuse? Verbal abuse? Physical abuse? "Other clients could see this without fully understanding the situation, potentially losing business." There's not that much to understand. What's easy to understand is that if you don't pay your bills with developer X, they will take public action against you. If you're the type of person who plans on skipping out on bills, you may avoid developer X. I think developer X would be thrilled to have potential 'business' like that self-select out of his customer base. I know I would be.
  - mediascreen 14y ago
    While I can understand the frustration, I would argue that professionalism does not have to work both ways. If your client acts unprofessionally, you should still act professionally. Try conventional ways to reclame the what you are owed and if all else fails, take the site down - possibly with a small notice that says something like "Site offline until payment in full". What OP did is illegal in many countries in Europe and from what I understand probably in Germany as well. It doesn't matter if the statements are true, it's still defamation. http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_stgb/englisch_stgb.html#p1669 http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_stgb/englisch_stg...
digitalengineer 14y ago
I don't get it. A legally binding contract was signed before they took on the job, right? Doesn't that offer legal protection?
- ceejayoz 14y ago
  Assuming you can afford a lawyer. In this case, the developer's apparently in Europe, making that even more difficult.
  - digitalengineer 14y ago
    Ah thank you. I live next to Germany (Holland) and know the German developers to be very stict, precise and 'grundlich' and to have an insurance against legal costs. Looks like the one thing they forgot was to stop working after they didn't get paid the first time. They trusted the client and got taken to the cleaners. I understand why they took the website / domain down. At least now everyone knows about it and it's the only thing left... Not professional no, but understandable.
- mgkimsal 14y ago
  And 'legal' protection means waiting years in courts, then potentially years more to collect on that judgement (assuming you actually win). I don't know the story behind this, but they may have already waited months before taking this sort of action. And as someone else said - really? An SF-based company contracted with someone in Germany to do their website? Seems to be they were doing this on purpose, to avoid paying. I had a similar situation with someone in NYC who didn't pay - found out later his company had a habit of doing this to small contractors out of state - you're telling me you can't find a web developer in NYC? In my case, yes, I sued - drove to NYC and filed a suit. It's been 4.5 years, and I still don't have a court date.
  - chc 14y ago
    Does small claims court really take years? I haven't needed to directly interact with it before, but that was not my impression from acquaintances who have to go there quite often.
rickdale 14y ago
I am sorry, but this guy is way out of line here. Legally I have no idea, but morally, I do. I mean, go to the place and talk to someone. Or take down the site. Don't start a campaign for your feelings. edit: On second thought I was eating a restaurant when their televisions turned black and the screen came up with a pay your bill now notice. Every screen in the restaurant. So I guess maybe this is the tactic.
- piyush_soni 14y ago
  Why not? If after repeated attempts they're not paying them, they should do anything they legally can.
- chris_wot 14y ago
  It's morally wrong not to pay your bills. If they are being shamed, tough luck. Pay the one you owe money to.
  - iamtyce 14y ago
    I absolutely agree. I've been in this position as a frontend dev many, many times. And that's WITH a decent contract, no bad gut feeling, great communication throughout. Ultimately, I can't control whether a client feels like paying my invoice or not. I commend this developer, he's done something I've always wanted to do.
- mgkimsal 14y ago
  At what point do you stop providing the service (or allowing the deadbeat client to continue to get the benefit of the previously provided service)? 1 week? 1 month? 1 year? The TV signal issue - how many "you didn't pay" emails and phone calls and written bills did they get before it was turned off? And consider this - if the TV just went dead, people would be calling/complaining "my service is dead!" This is a faster way of telling them why it's dead. The fact that someone was broadcasting to their customers was their own fault if they got embarrassed by it. I would hazard to guess they were probably only licensed for one set, and they were splitting/copying the signal to multiple TVs as well.
- 14y ago
fencepost 14y ago
My suspicion is that this is being done because it's international. If Fitness SF is as I suspect in San Francisco while the developer is in Europe, collections will be a real headache. Sue? Sure, probably where you are, probably win. Then collect from the European presence of a California fitness club. I see a potential disconnect. Sue in California? How much is THAT going to cost someone based in Europe? And really, what recourse does Fitness SF have either? If they sue him, maybe they win. Maybe that makes it hard for him to come to the USA. Is that a problem for him? Can they legitimately go after him vs his company (and vice versa). It's a no-win situation all around. I'd say that the big lesson to be learned from this is that international customers pay up-front and with a deposit if you're going to allow things that increase the price (e.g. rush changes). For most things there's not usually a good reason to add the expense and complication of 12-hour time differences and international borders unless you're planning up front to make legal recourse difficult.
- fencepost 14y ago
  Editing on a phone is quirky, so further detail: the AdWeek profile lists him as being in Germany. Also, of all the cities in the USA, Fitness SF was unable to find a designer they liked in San Francisco? Please.
  - justincormack 14y ago
    Design is a global market to a large extent, there is no reason why they should choose a local one.
    - ceejayoz 14y ago
      Especially if they planned from the beginning not to pay.
    - mgkimsal 14y ago
      There's plenty of reasons to choose local though: 1. Keep money in the local economy. 2. Build a local network. 3. Have face to face meetings to get your ideas across more quickly - whiteboarding, seeing facial reactions to comps, hands-on testing, etc. I've done remote work, and I've done work with clients in my local area. There's reasons for both, but most clients I work with want local, or at least want the ability to meet face to face on occasion. The few that didn't want to (or even declined attempts to meet f2f) either skipped out on their bill, or were wanting extremely commodity services (install wordpress on my server, fix this javascript error, etc).
state 14y ago
This is unprofessional, this is going to be a nightmare for the developer and probably wont result in him getting paid. It's not the right thing to do. I agree with most of the other comments here, but I'm still impressed. It's always fun to see someone really going for it.
- ceejayoz 14y ago
  Anyone doing this has generally already resigned themselves to not getting paid for the job.
lowlevel 14y ago
Developers look up extortion in the dictionary ... We're new to it, though. If we had more experience...
zdw 14y ago
I don't see the problem with this. People deserve to be paid for the work they do, and time they expend, which is irreplaceable. If you take your car to the shop and can't pay for the work to be done, they put a mechanic's lien on it, and impound the car until the work is paid for. This is no different from that method, which is totally legal. Similarly, I've met software developers who set timebombs in custom software they write for companies, with an easy to install patch that gets released when that company pays it's bill. If you're out to screw someone over and take their work without paying them, then being deprived of the utility of the unpaid work is the minimum amount of damage you should expect.
- greaterweb 14y ago
  "If you take your car to the shop and can't pay for the work to be done, they put a mechanic's lien on it, and impound the car until the work is paid for. This is no different from that method, which is totally legal." There is a big difference, actually. There is pretty standard protocol and work agreements for automotive repair. This developer may have exposed himself to a level of risk based on his own contracts and work arrangement. Why was the site up in the first place if he was not paid in full? "Similarly, I've met software developers who set timebombs in custom software they write for companies, with an easy to install patch that gets released when that company pays it's bill." Wow, this is just scary. The work relationship is doomed if the developer doesn't trust the customer or vice versa. If you are in the business of making money through software development, be skilled not only in developing but in assembling contracts and project plans that protect your interests.
  - ultramundane8 14y ago
    So let's say that the customer always pays on time and the developer did build this sort of time bomb. (And let's assume no technical knowledge on the part of the customer. Therefore, the time bomb is never discovered.) Are you saying that the relationship was negatively affected? I would claim that the developer could mistrust the customer without elsewhere mistreating them.
    - 14y ago
joshcrews 14y ago
Freelancers and agencies: consider having all work prepaid. Your fears may say that clients won't go for it, but they are going for it with other agencies/consultants, and in other professions this is a mainstream way of doing business. Government and huge corporate sales might not go for it, but you should be adding a 0 to the end of your price quotes to them as compensation.
- dhimes 14y ago
  That wouldn't work for me as a client: I've dealt wit scummy freelancers, too. You could consider going through an agency- one that offers the ability to (1) escrow money, (2) keep a written record of agreements, and (3) provide mediation. There are costs to this, but, at least until you trust each other, they may be the way to go.
  - joshcrews 14y ago
    I have everyone prepay me for Rails development. I think the reason it's not an issue is that they've worked with bad freelancers, and people that drop the ball, flake out, stop answering emails. They don't want that so bad that they will prepay me because they believe I'm not going to do that to them, they really want me to do their project, and so prepayment is a non-issue. Edit: I haven't asked for $30,000 in advance before; more like 20 hour blocks of time, or thirds of projects paid in advance
    - dhimes 14y ago
      OK- a deposit I fully agree with. But when I have prepaid (or paid the last installment before receiving the final code) I've been burned. In fact, a freelancer owes me some code as we speak that I will never see- but I don't really care because, surprise surprise, his code sucks too and I've someone else re-doing it. In fact, maybe that's a better bellweather: look at samples of code. The more professional it looks, the more professional I can expect the interaction to be. Seems reasonable- what do you think?
  - timjahn 14y ago
greaterweb 14y ago
I do empathize with this guys position but he is way out of line here. There is an implied risk in doing business, be it freelance or trough a traditional business. Your first line of defense would be a solid contract and a fairly decent deposit. If you lead with a strong reputation clients will have no problem making the investment with you. If you lack the experience and reputation, maybe you shouldn't be getting involved in projects like this that leave you at risk. Next would be proper project planning and _clear_ delivery milestones that have payments associated with them. It is not wise to put yourself in a situation where you lead with design and development and receive the bulk of payment when the project is complete. Without a clear project plan and deliverables scope creep can introduce itself and you can wind up eating the cost of additional work to satisfy the client. And even then you are still crossing your fingers the check will come before the next "quick update." The problem I have with what the developer has done here is that he has abused his position to leverage a client's domain to support his view of the situation. We don't know the clients side and they are left without a voice here. The developer may very well be the victim here but I've got to believe it was his business practices that made him vulnerable here.
- johnpowell 14y ago
  Well, the client did go through the trouble of deleting their facebook pages that the site linked to. So they did have a voice but took a knife to their own larynx instead of telling their side of the story.
rdouble 14y ago
That's too bad, their SOMA location is the only good gym in the city.
rglover 14y ago
Hand down my favorite phrase from our contract: At the designated point in the project and after final payment has been received, we will present you with all files pertaining to your project.
- thisisdallas 14y ago
  Exactly. I have something along the same line in my contract. I never give the client all the files or set up the site until I have been paid in full. I regularly send them updates, screenshots and allow them to test out sites on the dev server but I never give them a finished product without being paid in full. Before I start, there is a 50% retainer. After the design is completed the client pays 25% of the total. After the development is completed they owe the final 25% and once they pay their last invoice they get the final product. With this system, I have never had a problem. That's not to say it's perfect but I do believe it's a great way to handle payments.
  - nwh 14y ago
    On a fairly regular basis I see print jobs being requested that have watermarks of the designer over it; clearly the client hasn't paid and is going to print with the low quality proof. It's weird that people believe it to be acceptable.
    - rglover 14y ago
      This works out in the end, really. It's a shame, but it's a hell of a great indicator for who to avoid. If I had to guess, the justification in their mind is that they still get the work. Though in reality, they're just painting a sign on their forehead that reads "I'm clueless."
pasbesoin 14y ago
I did some work for a family member and their business partners, at a time when they were in great financial straights, and eventually got stiffed by them (the partners outweighed the family member -- no problem with the latter). Get paid in a timely fashion! If this is somehow "inconvenient" for the other party... they are already not valuing your contribution. Walk away. Trust your intuition, too. If something "feels off", it probably is. I had that feeling early on, with those partners. I stayed in it for the sake of the family member (no regrets, from that perspective). P.S. To clarify, they pulled through and ended up doing ok. At which time, they stiffed me. It was not a matter of their failure.
gdiaz 14y ago
Looks like they took all their fitnesssf facebook pages down. https://www.evernote.com/shard/s15/sh/d1096855-0c3a-4ed6-a877-a60057e95a57/25a341bfd02a89354e6849fe8213ca79 https://www.evernote.com/shard/s15/sh/d1096855-0c3a-4ed6-a87... lots of people telling them to pay their invoices. And the owner trying to do damage control by telling people their website got hacked.
- greaterweb 14y ago
  This is an unfortunate side effect of what this developer has set in motion. I don't know enough about either side to make a determination of who is right or wrong, but neither do the people harassing this business on Facebook. From his Behance page: "Half a year's worth of work, weeks of waiting on end because they couldn't find the fingers at the end of their arms and in the end they try to screw me over by ignoring the invoices. " That a pretty aggressive play in words. I suspect if he is really looking for "justice" he'd gain a lot more support in exposing the entire situation, not just some pretty screen shots and shouting about unpaid invoices. I for one am genuinely interested in learning more about this, both sides preferably.
  - homosaur 14y ago
    No, I don't think it was an unfortunate side effect, I think it's exactly what he wanted to happen. I know if I were a customer at that gym that I would never be back if someone was trying to screw with my industry. I'd also tell everyone I ever knew not to go there. My guess is that this was not the method of first resort.
    - greaterweb 14y ago
      You may be right, it may be exactly what he wanted to happen. The trouble I have thus far is the information is insufficient to make a fair determination of who is right and who is wrong. People are having knee-jerk reactions and harassing the gym without fully knowing the story, and yes, that is truly unfortunate. If you are ready to close the case on this one simply by a developer claiming he wasn't paid, well, you may wish to rethink your logic with that one. Has anyone vouched for the credibility of this developer? Have more details surfaced as to the extent of the invoice dispute? Without those answers it's unfounded to hold anything against this gym solely based on the developers claims that he wasn't paid.
silentmars 14y ago
Fitnesssf took down their Facebook pages.
piqufoh 14y ago
Ouch - this seems like an overly emotional approach to an obviously worrying problem, and I do sympathise with the guy - I imagine if I were in the same position then this would make me feel good, for about 6 hours. Then I'd realise that I was possibly being a dick and just a blank page with "Please contact accounts@host" as kibibu said would have done (and not pissed anyone off too bad).
yuhong 14y ago
Also see http://www.adweek.com/adfreak/agency-replaces-clients-website-nasty-letter-after-not-getting-paid-147291 http://www.adweek.com/adfreak/agency-replaces-clients-websit...
bradleyjoyce 14y ago
Checkout http://www.zencash.com http://www.zencash.com to help avoid this issue.
wonderyak 14y ago
This is probably as good a time as any to rehash Mike Montiero's talk 'Fuck You, Pay Me' http://vimeo.com/22053820 http://vimeo.com/22053820 I've been instructed to do things like this by past employers and I've never been comfortable with it. There are other avenues to persuing payment for services than defacing someone's property (assumption on my part, admittedly) and creating a firestorm of hatred to be imposed upon them in other mediums and venues. To me, this is childish and an attempt at trying the easy way out of a situation. Always have contracts, always get paid in installments. If you cannot get those things from clients, then you do not want them as clients.
- homosaur 14y ago
  Oh yeah, it would be sooooo much better for a small business to spend possibly thousands and thousands of dollars on a judgement that will never get paid. But you are right about installments. I have a very specific set of language in my contracts regarding payment and deliverables. And if they stole my code which this guy claims, well, I'd probably pull something like this before bothering to spend thousands of dollars on a wasted legal battle.
eksith 14y ago
I like the background color.
pseingatl 14y ago
This is a great idea. Those who write, "go to small claims court" don't know what they're talking about. In small claims you may win your case, but that does not mean you can collect your money. Collection efforts must then commence; working from another country makes collection impractical. More importantly, this matter points out that a web site is a valuable asset which can be levied or seized for failure to pay a debt generally. So if I buy a car, sue the dealer in small claims court and win, I can seize the dealer's web site and sell it (or hold it) as compensation. A world of possibilities.
chris_wot 14y ago
I applaud them or this. This is exactly what happened to me, only worse. I worked day and night, at times driving for 4 hours to the ACT to get to client sites. For absolutely nothing. I didn't get paid. There was no point pursuing it in the courts, and frankly I don't want to live a bitter life. But these people are scum. Good on them for showing them up.
dayyan 14y ago
I feel unless you are an expert in law, debating the legality of this pointless. What I am interested in is what the site used to look like. Anyone got screenshots or a cache link?

202 points by ssclafani 14y ago

Archived the source for when this inevitably is reverted: https://gist.github.com/anonymous/4955465 https://gist.github.com/anonymous/4955465 The page embeds http://clients.frankjonen.com/fitnesssf http://clients.frankjonen.com/fitnesssf in a frame.

feverishaaron 14y ago
Did you consult an attorney before doing this? I'm curious what the ramifications are. Back in my boutique days, we were stiffed several times, but I never wanted to pull a stunt like this for fear of legal retribution. Instead, I hired some very good collectors, and had a stipulation in my contract that the customer was required to pay collection fees for invoices over 60 days late. This resulted in my company getting paid in full all but twice.
- mischanix 14y ago
  Ah, I'm not the one who did this; and as an American, I never would--easier to resolve it more traditionally. However, the client being American and the firm being European, I can see how this became the option of choice.
  - delwin 14y ago
    That seems a little prejudiced. I know Americans who would do this. That doesn't make them less American. I know Germans who wouldn't. That doesn't make them not German. No generalizations, thank you.
    - Jemaclus 14y ago
      It's not a generalization. He's saying that since he's American, he's "local" and can challenge it in American courts, while the firm who built this site is European and cannot (as easily). It's much more difficult for a European to sue an American company for failed payments.
    - mischanix 14y ago
      I was referring to the fact that the contract was international, not to the nationalities of either party.
    - swampthing 14y ago
      Might be mis-reading, but I took his comment to mean just that it would be harder for an international company to resolve this through the court system here in the US (and thus other approaches become more attractive).
    - deleted 14y ago
      [deleted]

boksiora 14y ago

Good man i like it. If you let them go they will never learn

bitcartel 14y ago

What did the site look like before? Can't find anything in the Wayback Machine.

piyush_soni 14y ago
Google's cached image for this website shows this: http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/6597/fitnesssf.png http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/6597/fitnesssf.png
cody_bonney 14y ago
They posted some screenshots (along with some ranting) at http://talent.adweek.com/gallery/Fitness-SF-Website/7075381 http://talent.adweek.com/gallery/Fitness-SF-Website/7075381

robotjosh 14y ago

I wouldn't change anyone's website to say they haven't paid a bill. It won't let you collect any easier and you might get sued and lose. At some point you have to say no more work until we get settled up to this point.

EToS 14y ago
Agree entirely with this.. often i take 30% up front, 30% when prototyped, and final 40% payment upon delivery
- PotatoEngineer 14y ago
  Can you live on 60%? That is, how hard is it if a large customer decides to ignore that last payment?
  - chrismsnz 14y ago
    Then it doesn't get delivered. EDIT: Having the "finished" site on a test host (or even just a temporary DNS name) until the final payment seems like a shrewd move. The work is complete, but if you don't get final payment it doesn't go live.
raylu 14y ago
I suspect he has given up on collecting.

seyfarth 14y ago

This is unprofessional.

damm 14y ago
I would suggest that what the original customer did was theft. They would still be reaping the profits of their thievery had not stopped it. Legality is the hard part, which is likely why this company went the way it did. Most people would prefer a 'This site is down due to non-payment' or a 'we are down'. That's trying to swim upstream without a paddle, this is slippery enough without trying to on the right side.
- danielweber 14y ago
  I have no pity for fitnesssf, but that doesn't mean that the creator's actions are okay. (I'm not sure they aren't okay, either.)
etchalon 14y ago
And yet so very, very awesome.
- mxxx 14y ago
  absolutely. i used to dream about doing something like this to asshat clients i had when i was starting out. it's kind of like the designer equivalent of quitting your desk job by kicking your monitor onto the floor and walking out giving everyone the finger. XD
damm 14y ago
Do remember, they are in a foreign country. Have you tried to sue someone outside of your country? It's not cheap nor easy.
prawn 14y ago
From the developer or the client? I have little sympathy for clients who are given countless opportunities to pay their bills and yet keep ignoring them.

nobodysfool 14y ago

I'm pretty sure calling them 'thieves' is libel.

jstalin 14y ago

That web designer turned a contract issue into a potential tortious interference issue -- against him.

tptacek 14y ago
Is the claim here really tortious interference? Or is it conversion? Or something else? Taking down a deadbeat client's website if they're entirely in breach of the contract that created it seems like it would be reasonable, but I agree that hosting a new website in its place to broadcast a grievance is probably a bad idea. I had fairly complicated Python and C code I'm reviewing coming out of my ears so I did some research on this to clear my head. I couldn't find any solid answers. I'd be interested in hearing one from a lawyer, because this comes up on HN every now and then. Back to code review for me. Wish me luck.
- dfxm12 14y ago
  In a perfect world, there would be clauses in the contract explaining what happens when there is a failure to pay. Of course, we have no idea if there even is a contract.
  - jstalin 14y ago
    There certainly is a contract, even if it was oral, the question is what were the terms of the contract. Likely there were no terms dealing with what happens if there is no payment.
    - dfxm12 14y ago
      Do you know for a fact? This is a San Francisco based company working with a German company. If they were both US based, you'd be correct for sure.
      - jstalin 14y ago
        You might not realize that just sending an email to a design company saying "Please design us a web site and we'll pay you $500" creates a contract (assuming the design company responds and says "ok!"). I doubt the design company would have gotten started without any kind of price term being set.

EToS 14y ago

I can empathise with this a lot, but would not recommend going this far, if nothing other than for your own reputation and professionalism. Other clients could see this without fully understanding the situation, potentially losing business. In previous cases ive been involved in, taking down the site sending in debt collectors is often the easiest and cleanest method of getting back your money.

aroberge 14y ago
Can this be done easily from a different country - as this is the case here?
mgkimsal 14y ago
" if nothing other than for your own reputation and professionalism"... And the professionalism of fitnesssf - of not paying their vendors - gets swept under the rug for dozens of other vendors to have to discover on their own, individually, in silence. Great. "Professionalism" really has to work both ways. If you want me to treat you professionally, treat me professionally. What lines does someone have to cross before they lose that professionalism from you? Financial abuse? Emotional abuse? Verbal abuse? Physical abuse? "Other clients could see this without fully understanding the situation, potentially losing business." There's not that much to understand. What's easy to understand is that if you don't pay your bills with developer X, they will take public action against you. If you're the type of person who plans on skipping out on bills, you may avoid developer X. I think developer X would be thrilled to have potential 'business' like that self-select out of his customer base. I know I would be.
- mediascreen 14y ago
  While I can understand the frustration, I would argue that professionalism does not have to work both ways. If your client acts unprofessionally, you should still act professionally. Try conventional ways to reclame the what you are owed and if all else fails, take the site down - possibly with a small notice that says something like "Site offline until payment in full". What OP did is illegal in many countries in Europe and from what I understand probably in Germany as well. It doesn't matter if the statements are true, it's still defamation. http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_stgb/englisch_stgb.html#p1669 http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_stgb/englisch_stg...

digitalengineer 14y ago

I don't get it. A legally binding contract was signed before they took on the job, right? Doesn't that offer legal protection?

ceejayoz 14y ago
Assuming you can afford a lawyer. In this case, the developer's apparently in Europe, making that even more difficult.
- digitalengineer 14y ago
  Ah thank you. I live next to Germany (Holland) and know the German developers to be very stict, precise and 'grundlich' and to have an insurance against legal costs. Looks like the one thing they forgot was to stop working after they didn't get paid the first time. They trusted the client and got taken to the cleaners. I understand why they took the website / domain down. At least now everyone knows about it and it's the only thing left... Not professional no, but understandable.
mgkimsal 14y ago
And 'legal' protection means waiting years in courts, then potentially years more to collect on that judgement (assuming you actually win). I don't know the story behind this, but they may have already waited months before taking this sort of action. And as someone else said - really? An SF-based company contracted with someone in Germany to do their website? Seems to be they were doing this on purpose, to avoid paying. I had a similar situation with someone in NYC who didn't pay - found out later his company had a habit of doing this to small contractors out of state - you're telling me you can't find a web developer in NYC? In my case, yes, I sued - drove to NYC and filed a suit. It's been 4.5 years, and I still don't have a court date.
- chc 14y ago
  Does small claims court really take years? I haven't needed to directly interact with it before, but that was not my impression from acquaintances who have to go there quite often.

rickdale 14y ago

I am sorry, but this guy is way out of line here. Legally I have no idea, but morally, I do. I mean, go to the place and talk to someone. Or take down the site. Don't start a campaign for your feelings. edit: On second thought I was eating a restaurant when their televisions turned black and the screen came up with a pay your bill now notice. Every screen in the restaurant. So I guess maybe this is the tactic.

piyush_soni 14y ago
Why not? If after repeated attempts they're not paying them, they should do anything they legally can.
chris_wot 14y ago
It's morally wrong not to pay your bills. If they are being shamed, tough luck. Pay the one you owe money to.
- iamtyce 14y ago
  I absolutely agree. I've been in this position as a frontend dev many, many times. And that's WITH a decent contract, no bad gut feeling, great communication throughout. Ultimately, I can't control whether a client feels like paying my invoice or not. I commend this developer, he's done something I've always wanted to do.
mgkimsal 14y ago
At what point do you stop providing the service (or allowing the deadbeat client to continue to get the benefit of the previously provided service)? 1 week? 1 month? 1 year? The TV signal issue - how many "you didn't pay" emails and phone calls and written bills did they get before it was turned off? And consider this - if the TV just went dead, people would be calling/complaining "my service is dead!" This is a faster way of telling them why it's dead. The fact that someone was broadcasting to their customers was their own fault if they got embarrassed by it. I would hazard to guess they were probably only licensed for one set, and they were splitting/copying the signal to multiple TVs as well.
14y ago

fencepost 14y ago

My suspicion is that this is being done because it's international. If Fitness SF is as I suspect in San Francisco while the developer is in Europe, collections will be a real headache. Sue? Sure, probably where you are, probably win. Then collect from the European presence of a California fitness club. I see a potential disconnect. Sue in California? How much is THAT going to cost someone based in Europe? And really, what recourse does Fitness SF have either? If they sue him, maybe they win. Maybe that makes it hard for him to come to the USA. Is that a problem for him? Can they legitimately go after him vs his company (and vice versa). It's a no-win situation all around. I'd say that the big lesson to be learned from this is that international customers pay up-front and with a deposit if you're going to allow things that increase the price (e.g. rush changes). For most things there's not usually a good reason to add the expense and complication of 12-hour time differences and international borders unless you're planning up front to make legal recourse difficult.

fencepost 14y ago
Editing on a phone is quirky, so further detail: the AdWeek profile lists him as being in Germany. Also, of all the cities in the USA, Fitness SF was unable to find a designer they liked in San Francisco? Please.
- justincormack 14y ago
  Design is a global market to a large extent, there is no reason why they should choose a local one.
  - ceejayoz 14y ago
    Especially if they planned from the beginning not to pay.
  - mgkimsal 14y ago
    There's plenty of reasons to choose local though: 1. Keep money in the local economy. 2. Build a local network. 3. Have face to face meetings to get your ideas across more quickly - whiteboarding, seeing facial reactions to comps, hands-on testing, etc. I've done remote work, and I've done work with clients in my local area. There's reasons for both, but most clients I work with want local, or at least want the ability to meet face to face on occasion. The few that didn't want to (or even declined attempts to meet f2f) either skipped out on their bill, or were wanting extremely commodity services (install wordpress on my server, fix this javascript error, etc).

state 14y ago

This is unprofessional, this is going to be a nightmare for the developer and probably wont result in him getting paid. It's not the right thing to do. I agree with most of the other comments here, but I'm still impressed. It's always fun to see someone really going for it.

ceejayoz 14y ago
Anyone doing this has generally already resigned themselves to not getting paid for the job.

lowlevel 14y ago

Developers look up extortion in the dictionary ... We're new to it, though. If we had more experience...

zdw 14y ago

I don't see the problem with this. People deserve to be paid for the work they do, and time they expend, which is irreplaceable. If you take your car to the shop and can't pay for the work to be done, they put a mechanic's lien on it, and impound the car until the work is paid for. This is no different from that method, which is totally legal. Similarly, I've met software developers who set timebombs in custom software they write for companies, with an easy to install patch that gets released when that company pays it's bill. If you're out to screw someone over and take their work without paying them, then being deprived of the utility of the unpaid work is the minimum amount of damage you should expect.

greaterweb 14y ago
"If you take your car to the shop and can't pay for the work to be done, they put a mechanic's lien on it, and impound the car until the work is paid for. This is no different from that method, which is totally legal." There is a big difference, actually. There is pretty standard protocol and work agreements for automotive repair. This developer may have exposed himself to a level of risk based on his own contracts and work arrangement. Why was the site up in the first place if he was not paid in full? "Similarly, I've met software developers who set timebombs in custom software they write for companies, with an easy to install patch that gets released when that company pays it's bill." Wow, this is just scary. The work relationship is doomed if the developer doesn't trust the customer or vice versa. If you are in the business of making money through software development, be skilled not only in developing but in assembling contracts and project plans that protect your interests.
- ultramundane8 14y ago
  So let's say that the customer always pays on time and the developer did build this sort of time bomb. (And let's assume no technical knowledge on the part of the customer. Therefore, the time bomb is never discovered.) Are you saying that the relationship was negatively affected? I would claim that the developer could mistrust the customer without elsewhere mistreating them.
  - 14y ago

joshcrews 14y ago

Freelancers and agencies: consider having all work prepaid. Your fears may say that clients won't go for it, but they are going for it with other agencies/consultants, and in other professions this is a mainstream way of doing business. Government and huge corporate sales might not go for it, but you should be adding a 0 to the end of your price quotes to them as compensation.

dhimes 14y ago
That wouldn't work for me as a client: I've dealt wit scummy freelancers, too. You could consider going through an agency- one that offers the ability to (1) escrow money, (2) keep a written record of agreements, and (3) provide mediation. There are costs to this, but, at least until you trust each other, they may be the way to go.
- joshcrews 14y ago
  I have everyone prepay me for Rails development. I think the reason it's not an issue is that they've worked with bad freelancers, and people that drop the ball, flake out, stop answering emails. They don't want that so bad that they will prepay me because they believe I'm not going to do that to them, they really want me to do their project, and so prepayment is a non-issue. Edit: I haven't asked for $30,000 in advance before; more like 20 hour blocks of time, or thirds of projects paid in advance
  - dhimes 14y ago
    OK- a deposit I fully agree with. But when I have prepaid (or paid the last installment before receiving the final code) I've been burned. In fact, a freelancer owes me some code as we speak that I will never see- but I don't really care because, surprise surprise, his code sucks too and I've someone else re-doing it. In fact, maybe that's a better bellweather: look at samples of code. The more professional it looks, the more professional I can expect the interaction to be. Seems reasonable- what do you think?
- timjahn 14y ago

greaterweb 14y ago

I do empathize with this guys position but he is way out of line here. There is an implied risk in doing business, be it freelance or trough a traditional business. Your first line of defense would be a solid contract and a fairly decent deposit. If you lead with a strong reputation clients will have no problem making the investment with you. If you lack the experience and reputation, maybe you shouldn't be getting involved in projects like this that leave you at risk. Next would be proper project planning and _clear_ delivery milestones that have payments associated with them. It is not wise to put yourself in a situation where you lead with design and development and receive the bulk of payment when the project is complete. Without a clear project plan and deliverables scope creep can introduce itself and you can wind up eating the cost of additional work to satisfy the client. And even then you are still crossing your fingers the check will come before the next "quick update." The problem I have with what the developer has done here is that he has abused his position to leverage a client's domain to support his view of the situation. We don't know the clients side and they are left without a voice here. The developer may very well be the victim here but I've got to believe it was his business practices that made him vulnerable here.

johnpowell 14y ago
Well, the client did go through the trouble of deleting their facebook pages that the site linked to. So they did have a voice but took a knife to their own larynx instead of telling their side of the story.

rdouble 14y ago

That's too bad, their SOMA location is the only good gym in the city.

rglover 14y ago

Hand down my favorite phrase from our contract: At the designated point in the project and after final payment has been received, we will present you with all files pertaining to your project.

thisisdallas 14y ago
Exactly. I have something along the same line in my contract. I never give the client all the files or set up the site until I have been paid in full. I regularly send them updates, screenshots and allow them to test out sites on the dev server but I never give them a finished product without being paid in full. Before I start, there is a 50% retainer. After the design is completed the client pays 25% of the total. After the development is completed they owe the final 25% and once they pay their last invoice they get the final product. With this system, I have never had a problem. That's not to say it's perfect but I do believe it's a great way to handle payments.
- nwh 14y ago
  On a fairly regular basis I see print jobs being requested that have watermarks of the designer over it; clearly the client hasn't paid and is going to print with the low quality proof. It's weird that people believe it to be acceptable.
  - rglover 14y ago
    This works out in the end, really. It's a shame, but it's a hell of a great indicator for who to avoid. If I had to guess, the justification in their mind is that they still get the work. Though in reality, they're just painting a sign on their forehead that reads "I'm clueless."

pasbesoin 14y ago

I did some work for a family member and their business partners, at a time when they were in great financial straights, and eventually got stiffed by them (the partners outweighed the family member -- no problem with the latter). Get paid in a timely fashion! If this is somehow "inconvenient" for the other party... they are already not valuing your contribution. Walk away. Trust your intuition, too. If something "feels off", it probably is. I had that feeling early on, with those partners. I stayed in it for the sake of the family member (no regrets, from that perspective). P.S. To clarify, they pulled through and ended up doing ok. At which time, they stiffed me. It was not a matter of their failure.

gdiaz 14y ago

Looks like they took all their fitnesssf facebook pages down. https://www.evernote.com/shard/s15/sh/d1096855-0c3a-4ed6-a877-a60057e95a57/25a341bfd02a89354e6849fe8213ca79 https://www.evernote.com/shard/s15/sh/d1096855-0c3a-4ed6-a87... lots of people telling them to pay their invoices. And the owner trying to do damage control by telling people their website got hacked.

greaterweb 14y ago
This is an unfortunate side effect of what this developer has set in motion. I don't know enough about either side to make a determination of who is right or wrong, but neither do the people harassing this business on Facebook. From his Behance page: "Half a year's worth of work, weeks of waiting on end because they couldn't find the fingers at the end of their arms and in the end they try to screw me over by ignoring the invoices. " That a pretty aggressive play in words. I suspect if he is really looking for "justice" he'd gain a lot more support in exposing the entire situation, not just some pretty screen shots and shouting about unpaid invoices. I for one am genuinely interested in learning more about this, both sides preferably.
- homosaur 14y ago
  No, I don't think it was an unfortunate side effect, I think it's exactly what he wanted to happen. I know if I were a customer at that gym that I would never be back if someone was trying to screw with my industry. I'd also tell everyone I ever knew not to go there. My guess is that this was not the method of first resort.
  - greaterweb 14y ago
    You may be right, it may be exactly what he wanted to happen. The trouble I have thus far is the information is insufficient to make a fair determination of who is right and who is wrong. People are having knee-jerk reactions and harassing the gym without fully knowing the story, and yes, that is truly unfortunate. If you are ready to close the case on this one simply by a developer claiming he wasn't paid, well, you may wish to rethink your logic with that one. Has anyone vouched for the credibility of this developer? Have more details surfaced as to the extent of the invoice dispute? Without those answers it's unfounded to hold anything against this gym solely based on the developers claims that he wasn't paid.

silentmars 14y ago

Fitnesssf took down their Facebook pages.

piqufoh 14y ago

Ouch - this seems like an overly emotional approach to an obviously worrying problem, and I do sympathise with the guy - I imagine if I were in the same position then this would make me feel good, for about 6 hours. Then I'd realise that I was possibly being a dick and just a blank page with "Please contact accounts@host" as kibibu said would have done (and not pissed anyone off too bad).

yuhong 14y ago

Also see http://www.adweek.com/adfreak/agency-replaces-clients-website-nasty-letter-after-not-getting-paid-147291 http://www.adweek.com/adfreak/agency-replaces-clients-websit...

bradleyjoyce 14y ago

Checkout http://www.zencash.com http://www.zencash.com to help avoid this issue.

wonderyak 14y ago

This is probably as good a time as any to rehash Mike Montiero's talk 'Fuck You, Pay Me' http://vimeo.com/22053820 http://vimeo.com/22053820 I've been instructed to do things like this by past employers and I've never been comfortable with it. There are other avenues to persuing payment for services than defacing someone's property (assumption on my part, admittedly) and creating a firestorm of hatred to be imposed upon them in other mediums and venues. To me, this is childish and an attempt at trying the easy way out of a situation. Always have contracts, always get paid in installments. If you cannot get those things from clients, then you do not want them as clients.

homosaur 14y ago
Oh yeah, it would be sooooo much better for a small business to spend possibly thousands and thousands of dollars on a judgement that will never get paid. But you are right about installments. I have a very specific set of language in my contracts regarding payment and deliverables. And if they stole my code which this guy claims, well, I'd probably pull something like this before bothering to spend thousands of dollars on a wasted legal battle.

eksith 14y ago

I like the background color.

pseingatl 14y ago

This is a great idea. Those who write, "go to small claims court" don't know what they're talking about. In small claims you may win your case, but that does not mean you can collect your money. Collection efforts must then commence; working from another country makes collection impractical. More importantly, this matter points out that a web site is a valuable asset which can be levied or seized for failure to pay a debt generally. So if I buy a car, sue the dealer in small claims court and win, I can seize the dealer's web site and sell it (or hold it) as compensation. A world of possibilities.

chris_wot 14y ago

I applaud them or this. This is exactly what happened to me, only worse. I worked day and night, at times driving for 4 hours to the ACT to get to client sites. For absolutely nothing. I didn't get paid. There was no point pursuing it in the courts, and frankly I don't want to live a bitter life. But these people are scum. Good on them for showing them up.

dayyan 14y ago

I feel unless you are an expert in law, debating the legality of this pointless. What I am interested in is what the site used to look like. Anyone got screenshots or a cache link?