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I (and probably several other) members of the board will be on this thread to answer any questions. Van Lindberg Chairman, Python Software Foundation Edit: I

by VanL 14y ago

I (and probably several other) members of the board will be on this thread to answer any questions. Van Lindberg Chairman, Python Software Foundation Edit: I have been asked what sort of statements would be helpful. I can't tell you exactly what to say - it needs to be your statement, but we need to make it clear that when someone says "Python" in relation to software, or a "Python server," or with "Python experience," they are referring to Python-the-language. We also want people to testify to their understanding that Python is distributed by the Python Software Foundation. These are not exactly the same, but this gives a flavor of some of the things that can be helpful: https://www.dropbox.com/s/zxn212k5r8mg1k7/WitnessStatement.pdf https://www.dropbox.com/s/zxn212k5r8mg1k7/WitnessStatement.p... In case anyone wants to know, it is CTM Application No. 10848208 PYTHON & Device in the name of POBox Hosting Edit 2: I have already received a book written in Spain, job postings about Python, and a number of statements of support. Thank you! Please, keep sending them. We need to make sure that it is clear that "Python" is Python across the entire EU.

egor83 14y ago
Is it possible to put a link to this post on Python news page? http://python.org/news/ http://python.org/news/ I'm going to forward this to some people working with Python in Europe, and I guess a link to the homepage might look more credible that to a blog.
- briancurtin 14y ago
  Yep, good point - I'm working on it (blog poster who is on a new laptop without a working website checkout).
- briancurtin 14y ago
  FYI, there is now a mention on the news list (also shown on the front page) which links to the blog post.
kibwen 14y ago
What would the ramifications be if the PSF loses the rights to the name "Python" in Europe? Would it force the language itself to be rebranded for all European usage?
- X-Istence 14y ago
  I can imagine that at that point the company owning the Python trademark would be able to go after other companies offering Python services for trademark infringement, and various other legal threats related to it...
- hakre 14y ago
  This is a stupid question to ask. Naturally they will not loose their right to use the name.
  - laumars 14y ago
    There's no need to be hostile in your response to a legitimate question; even if the answer seems painfully obvious to yourself and others. After all, we all learn by asking questions.
    - hakre 14y ago
      Well, the question itself is stupid not because something is obvious in the outcome, but because obviously nobody can predict the future. And using simple words is not hostile, at least using the term "stupid" in my previous comment had no hostility intended. I excuse for any irritation it might have caused and hopefully I could remove now any of these.
antihero 14y ago
Surely at least some part of their stack is built using Python, so couldn't you tell them that they may not use the software if they are going to proceed with this?
- Lewisham 14y ago
  That's not how the open-source movement works. You can't start excluding people based on usage you don't like. If you do that, you're explicitly not following open-source ideals.
  - detst 14y ago
    "Sue us and your license is revoked" is quite a reasonable provision, IMHO. Edit: if you're going to down-vote, at least read my clarification below.
    - MichaelGG 14y ago
      It's not at all - that means you're ceding many rights to the authors of the software. Suppose I want to use open source X from Company Y, and they had that provision. Then I find that Company Y is pirating my software, slandering, hacking our servers - if I sue them, I now lose my license? Why would I build on something that lets the owner act against me with relative impunity (assuming the software is something critical)?
      - detst 14y ago
        I considered that and I'll admit that I was being a bit lazy with my comment but I think it could be written in a reasonable way. Perhaps a license fee attached to any failed legal action. Or even limit to certain types of legal action.
        arcatek 14y ago
        We can't even be sure that Python-the-company is using Python-the software, so ... Furthermore, I think the problem is not here, the PSF clearly made a mistake by not registering the name (it's not a matter of 'bad law'). If we apply your solution, then it would mean that a company which does not use Python can still ask to register a global trademark named on the term.
bcbrown 14y ago
The company I work for might be applicable to write a letter in support. What email address should I use for getting help in drafting such a letter, and convincing management to get on board? The website mentions psf-trademarks@python.org in reference to completed letters, should I contact that email address for help in drafting a letter?
- VanL 14y ago
  You can contact me, van@python.org. Thanks!
lloeki 14y ago
FWIW, I am regularly contacted to be hired as a Python developer (notably by Luxembourg folks). Throughout job offers in computers, there is no ambiguity as to what Python means.
- VanL 14y ago
  Do you have any old offers of employment that you could share? The more and the older the better.
wannesm 14y ago
At the University of Leuven (Belgium), from this year on, all first year engineering students learn how to program in Python. Not yet an official reference to it but professor Dutre who teaches the course mentions it already on twitter: https://twitter.com/philipdutre/status/279716437982064640 https://twitter.com/philipdutre/status/279716437982064640 https://twitter.com/philipdutre/status/301760614416674816 https://twitter.com/philipdutre/status/301760614416674816
jorde 14y ago
At least Aalto University in Finland uses Python as the entry level teaching language nowadays [1]. I don't know anyone from the CS department but I'll do my best to reach out to them about the matter. [1]: https://noppa.aalto.fi/noppa/kurssi/t-106.1208/ https://noppa.aalto.fi/noppa/kurssi/t-106.1208/
- VanL 14y ago
  Thank you!
- Alphasite_ 14y ago
  University Of Glasgow as well, and this (rather incomplete) list from your own website, http://wiki.python.org/moin/SchoolsUsingPython#United_Kingdom http://wiki.python.org/moin/SchoolsUsingPython#United_Kingdo....
  - KPLauritzen 14y ago
    There is no universities from Denmark on that list, and I know that several of them offer courses in Python. I've reached out to a professor from University of Copenhagen who teaches a course on Molecular Dynamics using Python. Another course from Copenhagen teaching Python is listed here http://sis.ku.dk/kurser/viskursus.aspx?knr=130419 http://sis.ku.dk/kurser/viskursus.aspx?knr=130419
    - Tehnix 14y ago
      DTU (Technical University of Denmark) also has a Python course http://www.kurser.dtu.dk/02820.aspx?menulanguage=en http://www.kurser.dtu.dk/02820.aspx?menulanguage=en
  - Leszek 14y ago
    We're also introducing Python in the Cambridge CS course for computer vision practicals.
- catwell 14y ago
  Some universities and engineering schools in France are teaching Python or using Python in some classes. The one I attended (Télécom Bretagne) does. Here is, for instance, a course about Sage and Python: http://formations.telecom-bretagne.eu/fad/course/view.php?id=23704 http://formations.telecom-bretagne.eu/fad/course/view.php?id... Here is a job offer by a research laboratory: http://fr.lolix.org/search/offre/offre.php?id=15660 http://fr.lolix.org/search/offre/offre.php?id=15660 The French Python association has a Web page with lots of job offers too: http://www.afpy.org/jobs http://www.afpy.org/jobs
tehwalrus 14y ago
waiting for LibreOffice to download so I can wack things together for you. I am a UK developer/student. I'll be including: - screencap of my github profile (4 or 5 projects written in python) - 2 approaches from companies wanting to hire me (through LinkedIn) because I had "Python" listed on my profile - Academic references which use "Python" the programming language in a title or abstract. - evidence of my experience with Linux (i.e. that python is preinstalled in many many distributions), - evidence that I am writing the majority of my PhD code (I'll get you line counts) in Python. This makes me very very angry. If you have the address of the company or anything, I'd also like to write to them to tell them they're insane to try this - they're an embarrassment to the UK.
timruffles 14y ago
EuroPython conference - Googling I get mentions back to 2001. I'm sure you could get in touch with the organisers for promo material etc http://mail.python.org/pipermail/europython/2001-November/000007.html http://mail.python.org/pipermail/europython/2001-November/00...
- takluyver 14y ago
  If conferences are useful, there's also EuroSciPy and PyCon UK, where even the two letters Py unambiguously refer to the Python language.
belorn 14y ago
Would not Google search, Wikipedia and Stackoverflow statistic be of some worth to show what the dominant usage of the word python is in the realm of software?
- astrodust 14y ago
  This does need to be in relation to Python being used prior to the acquisition of python.co.uk, presumably, which means all of those are insufficient. The exception is Google's USENET cache.
keithpeter 14y ago
Canonical is based in London UK. Ubuntu makes extensive use of python scripting (I believe Shuttleworth used Python for his original Thawte software). Perhaps they would be prepared to provide evidence statements if approached?
- Torn 14y ago
  Mate of mine that works at Canonical on Ubuntu says they're aware of it (and are likely preparing evidence)
  - keithpeter 14y ago
    Excellent, I shall refrain from contacting the uk Ubuntu mailing list regulars in that case
candeira 14y ago
I help run barrapunto.com, a Slasdhot clone in Spanish backed by a Spanish company. We have a Python topic that refers to the Python language. We lost some of our early content, but currently our first story on that topic is from October 2001: http://softlibre.barrapunto.com/article.pl?sid=01/10/20/098242 http://softlibre.barrapunto.com/article.pl?sid=01/10/20/0982... Using Archive.org, I can find a story about the release of Python 2.0 from October 2000: http://web.archive.org/web/20001214042200/http://barrapunto.com/softlibre/100/10/17/1456230.shtml http://web.archive.org/web/20001214042200/http://barrapunto.... This last one is shown on this front page with a different design: http://web.archive.org/web/20001018174909/http://barrapunto.com/ http://web.archive.org/web/20001018174909/http://barrapunto....
mhandley 14y ago
Have you tried filing a dispute resolution claim with Nominet to revoke python.co.uk. Their policy is here: http://www.nominet.org.uk/disputes/when-use-drs/policy-and-procedure/drs-policy http://www.nominet.org.uk/disputes/when-use-drs/policy-and-p... You might have a case under 3c(ii). Edit: By the way, Nominet themselves use (or used) mailman, which uses Python: https://lists.nominet.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/nom-steer https://lists.nominet.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/nom-steer So you might have some sympathy there.
- toyg 14y ago
  I suspect the only reason PoBox/Veber are now filing a trademark is to pre-empt a challenge on the domain. They are just domain squatters who got hold of python.co.uk and now see it as investment -- possibly one of their last chances at surviving, seeing how they're rumoured to be £ 300k in debt.
jively 14y ago
We're a UK based company whose stack is almost completely built in Python - one official letter of support is winging its way to your lawyers as we speak.
laumars 14y ago
Do the owners of python.co.uk not have to prove the legitimacy of their right to the name as well? I'm fairly sure that trademark law works on the principle that you have to be seen to defend your trademark in order for it to be considered your intellectual property (it's why you often see silly stories in the news about big companies chasing after trivial businesses then settling quietly out of court). As the other company has let "their" trademark fester for 13 years, I can't see how they have any legitimate legal claim.
- laumars 14y ago
  Would someone care to address the faults in my comment rather than just voting me down? I asked a legitimate question.
  - hausen 14y ago
    The argument works both ways: if the PSF cannot assert a trademark on the name "Python," the owners of the python.co.uk domain shouldn't be able to take ownership of the name either. Why are they trying to do it right now?
    - laumars 14y ago
      Well that's partly my point. The owners of python.co.uk have waited 13 years to make a complaint about others using their trademark. And due to this, are arguably in a weak position to claim ownership of the trademark. So my question is this; are the owners of python.co.uk also being challenged to prove they've used their trademark? Are the owners of python.co.uk being challenged to prove that they've tried to enforce control over the trademark over the 13 years leading up to this case? If you want an example of what I mean, then check domain name trademark policy: http://wordpressfoundation.org/trademark-policy/ http://wordpressfoundation.org/trademark-policy/ > "All other WordPress-related businesses or projects can use the WordPress name and logo to refer to and explain their services, but they cannot use them as part of a product, project, service, domain, or company name and they cannot use them in any way that suggests an affiliation with or endorsement by the WordPress Foundation or the WordPress open source project. For example, a consulting company can describe its business as “123 Web Services, offering WordPress consulting for small businesses,” but cannot call its business “The WordPress Consulting Company.” Similarly, a business related to WordPress themes can describe itself as “XYZ Themes, the world’s best WordPress themes,” but cannot call itself “The WordPress Theme Portal.” > Similarly, it’s OK to use the WordPress or WordCamp logo as part of a page that describes your products or services, but it is not OK to use it as part of your company or product logo or branding itself. Under no circumstances is it permitted to use WordPress or WordCamp as part of a top-level domain name." The reason for this is quite simple, they've been seen to enforce their trademark so if there's ever any disputes, Wordpress are on strong legal ground. However python.co.uk owners have allowed the name -"their" trademark- to be borrowed and used globally. So it's now a grey issue as to whether the aforementioned still have a legal right to that trademark. So if I understand trademark law, then the PSF should also be challenging python.co.uk to prove that they've made any effort to enforce their trademark before now. I hope for PSF's sake that I am right here because that would put them in a much stronger position to win this dispute than just proving the widespread use of the term under their context alone.
INTPenis 14y ago
I'm going to ask my manager if I can write a letter on behalf of us, we're in the TeliaSonera family of companies. But I also think you should hawk some merchandise. T-shirts with the snake, or the Python logo. This would even help your case if people around the world were wearing them or sending in photos wearing them.

by VanL 14y ago

egor83 14y ago

Is it possible to put a link to this post on Python news page? http://python.org/news/ http://python.org/news/ I'm going to forward this to some people working with Python in Europe, and I guess a link to the homepage might look more credible that to a blog.

briancurtin 14y ago
Yep, good point - I'm working on it (blog poster who is on a new laptop without a working website checkout).
briancurtin 14y ago
FYI, there is now a mention on the news list (also shown on the front page) which links to the blog post.

kibwen 14y ago

What would the ramifications be if the PSF loses the rights to the name "Python" in Europe? Would it force the language itself to be rebranded for all European usage?

X-Istence 14y ago
I can imagine that at that point the company owning the Python trademark would be able to go after other companies offering Python services for trademark infringement, and various other legal threats related to it...
hakre 14y ago
This is a stupid question to ask. Naturally they will not loose their right to use the name.
- laumars 14y ago
  There's no need to be hostile in your response to a legitimate question; even if the answer seems painfully obvious to yourself and others. After all, we all learn by asking questions.
  - hakre 14y ago
    Well, the question itself is stupid not because something is obvious in the outcome, but because obviously nobody can predict the future. And using simple words is not hostile, at least using the term "stupid" in my previous comment had no hostility intended. I excuse for any irritation it might have caused and hopefully I could remove now any of these.

antihero 14y ago

Surely at least some part of their stack is built using Python, so couldn't you tell them that they may not use the software if they are going to proceed with this?

Lewisham 14y ago
That's not how the open-source movement works. You can't start excluding people based on usage you don't like. If you do that, you're explicitly not following open-source ideals.
- detst 14y ago
  "Sue us and your license is revoked" is quite a reasonable provision, IMHO. Edit: if you're going to down-vote, at least read my clarification below.
  - MichaelGG 14y ago
    It's not at all - that means you're ceding many rights to the authors of the software. Suppose I want to use open source X from Company Y, and they had that provision. Then I find that Company Y is pirating my software, slandering, hacking our servers - if I sue them, I now lose my license? Why would I build on something that lets the owner act against me with relative impunity (assuming the software is something critical)?
    - detst 14y ago
      I considered that and I'll admit that I was being a bit lazy with my comment but I think it could be written in a reasonable way. Perhaps a license fee attached to any failed legal action. Or even limit to certain types of legal action.
      - arcatek 14y ago
        We can't even be sure that Python-the-company is using Python-the software, so ... Furthermore, I think the problem is not here, the PSF clearly made a mistake by not registering the name (it's not a matter of 'bad law'). If we apply your solution, then it would mean that a company which does not use Python can still ask to register a global trademark named on the term.

bcbrown 14y ago

The company I work for might be applicable to write a letter in support. What email address should I use for getting help in drafting such a letter, and convincing management to get on board? The website mentions psf-trademarks@python.org in reference to completed letters, should I contact that email address for help in drafting a letter?

VanL 14y ago
You can contact me, van@python.org. Thanks!

lloeki 14y ago

FWIW, I am regularly contacted to be hired as a Python developer (notably by Luxembourg folks). Throughout job offers in computers, there is no ambiguity as to what Python means.

VanL 14y ago
Do you have any old offers of employment that you could share? The more and the older the better.

wannesm 14y ago

At the University of Leuven (Belgium), from this year on, all first year engineering students learn how to program in Python. Not yet an official reference to it but professor Dutre who teaches the course mentions it already on twitter: https://twitter.com/philipdutre/status/279716437982064640 https://twitter.com/philipdutre/status/279716437982064640 https://twitter.com/philipdutre/status/301760614416674816 https://twitter.com/philipdutre/status/301760614416674816

jorde 14y ago

At least Aalto University in Finland uses Python as the entry level teaching language nowadays [1]. I don't know anyone from the CS department but I'll do my best to reach out to them about the matter. [1]: https://noppa.aalto.fi/noppa/kurssi/t-106.1208/ https://noppa.aalto.fi/noppa/kurssi/t-106.1208/

VanL 14y ago
Thank you!
Alphasite_ 14y ago
University Of Glasgow as well, and this (rather incomplete) list from your own website, http://wiki.python.org/moin/SchoolsUsingPython#United_Kingdom http://wiki.python.org/moin/SchoolsUsingPython#United_Kingdo....
- KPLauritzen 14y ago
  There is no universities from Denmark on that list, and I know that several of them offer courses in Python. I've reached out to a professor from University of Copenhagen who teaches a course on Molecular Dynamics using Python. Another course from Copenhagen teaching Python is listed here http://sis.ku.dk/kurser/viskursus.aspx?knr=130419 http://sis.ku.dk/kurser/viskursus.aspx?knr=130419
  - Tehnix 14y ago
    DTU (Technical University of Denmark) also has a Python course http://www.kurser.dtu.dk/02820.aspx?menulanguage=en http://www.kurser.dtu.dk/02820.aspx?menulanguage=en
- Leszek 14y ago
  We're also introducing Python in the Cambridge CS course for computer vision practicals.
catwell 14y ago
Some universities and engineering schools in France are teaching Python or using Python in some classes. The one I attended (Télécom Bretagne) does. Here is, for instance, a course about Sage and Python: http://formations.telecom-bretagne.eu/fad/course/view.php?id=23704 http://formations.telecom-bretagne.eu/fad/course/view.php?id... Here is a job offer by a research laboratory: http://fr.lolix.org/search/offre/offre.php?id=15660 http://fr.lolix.org/search/offre/offre.php?id=15660 The French Python association has a Web page with lots of job offers too: http://www.afpy.org/jobs http://www.afpy.org/jobs

tehwalrus 14y ago

waiting for LibreOffice to download so I can wack things together for you. I am a UK developer/student. I'll be including: - screencap of my github profile (4 or 5 projects written in python) - 2 approaches from companies wanting to hire me (through LinkedIn) because I had "Python" listed on my profile - Academic references which use "Python" the programming language in a title or abstract. - evidence of my experience with Linux (i.e. that python is preinstalled in many many distributions), - evidence that I am writing the majority of my PhD code (I'll get you line counts) in Python. This makes me very very angry. If you have the address of the company or anything, I'd also like to write to them to tell them they're insane to try this - they're an embarrassment to the UK.

timruffles 14y ago

EuroPython conference - Googling I get mentions back to 2001. I'm sure you could get in touch with the organisers for promo material etc http://mail.python.org/pipermail/europython/2001-November/000007.html http://mail.python.org/pipermail/europython/2001-November/00...

takluyver 14y ago
If conferences are useful, there's also EuroSciPy and PyCon UK, where even the two letters Py unambiguously refer to the Python language.

belorn 14y ago

Would not Google search, Wikipedia and Stackoverflow statistic be of some worth to show what the dominant usage of the word python is in the realm of software?

astrodust 14y ago
This does need to be in relation to Python being used prior to the acquisition of python.co.uk, presumably, which means all of those are insufficient. The exception is Google's USENET cache.

keithpeter 14y ago

Canonical is based in London UK. Ubuntu makes extensive use of python scripting (I believe Shuttleworth used Python for his original Thawte software). Perhaps they would be prepared to provide evidence statements if approached?

Torn 14y ago
Mate of mine that works at Canonical on Ubuntu says they're aware of it (and are likely preparing evidence)
- keithpeter 14y ago
  Excellent, I shall refrain from contacting the uk Ubuntu mailing list regulars in that case

candeira 14y ago

I help run barrapunto.com, a Slasdhot clone in Spanish backed by a Spanish company. We have a Python topic that refers to the Python language. We lost some of our early content, but currently our first story on that topic is from October 2001: http://softlibre.barrapunto.com/article.pl?sid=01/10/20/098242 http://softlibre.barrapunto.com/article.pl?sid=01/10/20/0982... Using Archive.org, I can find a story about the release of Python 2.0 from October 2000: http://web.archive.org/web/20001214042200/http://barrapunto.com/softlibre/100/10/17/1456230.shtml http://web.archive.org/web/20001214042200/http://barrapunto.... This last one is shown on this front page with a different design: http://web.archive.org/web/20001018174909/http://barrapunto.com/ http://web.archive.org/web/20001018174909/http://barrapunto....

mhandley 14y ago

Have you tried filing a dispute resolution claim with Nominet to revoke python.co.uk. Their policy is here: http://www.nominet.org.uk/disputes/when-use-drs/policy-and-procedure/drs-policy http://www.nominet.org.uk/disputes/when-use-drs/policy-and-p... You might have a case under 3c(ii). Edit: By the way, Nominet themselves use (or used) mailman, which uses Python: https://lists.nominet.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/nom-steer https://lists.nominet.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/nom-steer So you might have some sympathy there.

toyg 14y ago
I suspect the only reason PoBox/Veber are now filing a trademark is to pre-empt a challenge on the domain. They are just domain squatters who got hold of python.co.uk and now see it as investment -- possibly one of their last chances at surviving, seeing how they're rumoured to be £ 300k in debt.

jively 14y ago

We're a UK based company whose stack is almost completely built in Python - one official letter of support is winging its way to your lawyers as we speak.

laumars 14y ago

Do the owners of python.co.uk not have to prove the legitimacy of their right to the name as well? I'm fairly sure that trademark law works on the principle that you have to be seen to defend your trademark in order for it to be considered your intellectual property (it's why you often see silly stories in the news about big companies chasing after trivial businesses then settling quietly out of court). As the other company has let "their" trademark fester for 13 years, I can't see how they have any legitimate legal claim.

laumars 14y ago
Would someone care to address the faults in my comment rather than just voting me down? I asked a legitimate question.
- hausen 14y ago
  The argument works both ways: if the PSF cannot assert a trademark on the name "Python," the owners of the python.co.uk domain shouldn't be able to take ownership of the name either. Why are they trying to do it right now?
  - laumars 14y ago
    Well that's partly my point. The owners of python.co.uk have waited 13 years to make a complaint about others using their trademark. And due to this, are arguably in a weak position to claim ownership of the trademark. So my question is this; are the owners of python.co.uk also being challenged to prove they've used their trademark? Are the owners of python.co.uk being challenged to prove that they've tried to enforce control over the trademark over the 13 years leading up to this case? If you want an example of what I mean, then check domain name trademark policy: http://wordpressfoundation.org/trademark-policy/ http://wordpressfoundation.org/trademark-policy/ > "All other WordPress-related businesses or projects can use the WordPress name and logo to refer to and explain their services, but they cannot use them as part of a product, project, service, domain, or company name and they cannot use them in any way that suggests an affiliation with or endorsement by the WordPress Foundation or the WordPress open source project. For example, a consulting company can describe its business as “123 Web Services, offering WordPress consulting for small businesses,” but cannot call its business “The WordPress Consulting Company.” Similarly, a business related to WordPress themes can describe itself as “XYZ Themes, the world’s best WordPress themes,” but cannot call itself “The WordPress Theme Portal.” > Similarly, it’s OK to use the WordPress or WordCamp logo as part of a page that describes your products or services, but it is not OK to use it as part of your company or product logo or branding itself. Under no circumstances is it permitted to use WordPress or WordCamp as part of a top-level domain name." The reason for this is quite simple, they've been seen to enforce their trademark so if there's ever any disputes, Wordpress are on strong legal ground. However python.co.uk owners have allowed the name -"their" trademark- to be borrowed and used globally. So it's now a grey issue as to whether the aforementioned still have a legal right to that trademark. So if I understand trademark law, then the PSF should also be challenging python.co.uk to prove that they've made any effort to enforce their trademark before now. I hope for PSF's sake that I am right here because that would put them in a much stronger position to win this dispute than just proving the widespread use of the term under their context alone.

INTPenis 14y ago

I'm going to ask my manager if I can write a letter on behalf of us, we're in the TeliaSonera family of companies. But I also think you should hawk some merchandise. T-shirts with the snake, or the Python logo. This would even help your case if people around the world were wearing them or sending in photos wearing them.