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Python trademark at risk in Europe

• VanL 14y ago
  I (and probably several other) members of the board will be on this thread to answer any questions. Van Lindberg Chairman, Python Software Foundation Edit: I have been asked what sort of statements would be helpful. I can't tell you exactly what to say - it needs to be your statement, but we need to make it clear that when someone says "Python" in relation to software, or a "Python server," or with "Python experience," they are referring to Python-the-language. We also want people to testify to their understanding that Python is distributed by the Python Software Foundation. These are not exactly the same, but this gives a flavor of some of the things that can be helpful: https://www.dropbox.com/s/zxn212k5r8mg1k7/WitnessStatement.pdf https://www.dropbox.com/s/zxn212k5r8mg1k7/WitnessStatement.p... In case anyone wants to know, it is CTM Application No. 10848208 PYTHON & Device in the name of POBox Hosting Edit 2: I have already received a book written in Spain, job postings about Python, and a number of statements of support. Thank you! Please, keep sending them. We need to make sure that it is clear that "Python" is Python across the entire EU.
  • egor83 14y ago
    Is it possible to put a link to this post on Python news page? http://python.org/news/ http://python.org/news/ I'm going to forward this to some people working with Python in Europe, and I guess a link to the homepage might look more credible that to a blog.
    • briancurtin 14y ago
      Yep, good point - I'm working on it (blog poster who is on a new laptop without a working website checkout).
    • briancurtin 14y ago
      FYI, there is now a mention on the news list (also shown on the front page) which links to the blog post.
  • kibwen 14y ago
    What would the ramifications be if the PSF loses the rights to the name "Python" in Europe? Would it force the language itself to be rebranded for all European usage?
    • X-Istence 14y ago
      I can imagine that at that point the company owning the Python trademark would be able to go after other companies offering Python services for trademark infringement, and various other legal threats related to it...
    • hakre 14y ago
      This is a stupid question to ask. Naturally they will not loose their right to use the name.
      • laumars 14y ago
        There's no need to be hostile in your response to a legitimate question; even if the answer seems painfully obvious to yourself and others. After all, we all learn by asking questions.
        • hakre 14y ago
          Well, the question itself is stupid not because something is obvious in the outcome, but because obviously nobody can predict the future. And using simple words is not hostile, at least using the term "stupid" in my previous comment had no hostility intended. I excuse for any irritation it might have caused and hopefully I could remove now any of these.
  • antihero 14y ago
    Surely at least some part of their stack is built using Python, so couldn't you tell them that they may not use the software if they are going to proceed with this?
    • Lewisham 14y ago
      That's not how the open-source movement works. You can't start excluding people based on usage you don't like. If you do that, you're explicitly not following open-source ideals.
      • detst 14y ago
        "Sue us and your license is revoked" is quite a reasonable provision, IMHO. Edit: if you're going to down-vote, at least read my clarification below.
        • MichaelGG 14y ago
          It's not at all - that means you're ceding many rights to the authors of the software. Suppose I want to use open source X from Company Y, and they had that provision. Then I find that Company Y is pirating my software, slandering, hacking our servers - if I sue them, I now lose my license? Why would I build on something that lets the owner act against me with relative impunity (assuming the software is something critical)?
          • detst 14y ago
            I considered that and I'll admit that I was being a bit lazy with my comment but I think it could be written in a reasonable way. Perhaps a license fee attached to any failed legal action. Or even limit to certain types of legal action.
            • arcatek 14y ago
              We can't even be sure that Python-the-company is using Python-the software, so ... Furthermore, I think the problem is not here, the PSF clearly made a mistake by not registering the name (it's not a matter of 'bad law'). If we apply your solution, then it would mean that a company which does not use Python can still ask to register a global trademark named on the term.
  • bcbrown 14y ago
    The company I work for might be applicable to write a letter in support. What email address should I use for getting help in drafting such a letter, and convincing management to get on board? The website mentions psf-trademarks@python.org in reference to completed letters, should I contact that email address for help in drafting a letter?
    • VanL 14y ago
      You can contact me, van@python.org. Thanks!
  • lloeki 14y ago
    FWIW, I am regularly contacted to be hired as a Python developer (notably by Luxembourg folks). Throughout job offers in computers, there is no ambiguity as to what Python means.
    • VanL 14y ago
      Do you have any old offers of employment that you could share? The more and the older the better.
  • wannesm 14y ago
    At the University of Leuven (Belgium), from this year on, all first year engineering students learn how to program in Python. Not yet an official reference to it but professor Dutre who teaches the course mentions it already on twitter: https://twitter.com/philipdutre/status/279716437982064640 https://twitter.com/philipdutre/status/279716437982064640 https://twitter.com/philipdutre/status/301760614416674816 https://twitter.com/philipdutre/status/301760614416674816
  • jorde 14y ago
    At least Aalto University in Finland uses Python as the entry level teaching language nowadays [1]. I don't know anyone from the CS department but I'll do my best to reach out to them about the matter. [1]: https://noppa.aalto.fi/noppa/kurssi/t-106.1208/ https://noppa.aalto.fi/noppa/kurssi/t-106.1208/
    • VanL 14y ago
      Thank you!
    • Alphasite_ 14y ago
      University Of Glasgow as well, and this (rather incomplete) list from your own website, http://wiki.python.org/moin/SchoolsUsingPython#United_Kingdom http://wiki.python.org/moin/SchoolsUsingPython#United_Kingdo....
      • KPLauritzen 14y ago
        There is no universities from Denmark on that list, and I know that several of them offer courses in Python. I've reached out to a professor from University of Copenhagen who teaches a course on Molecular Dynamics using Python. Another course from Copenhagen teaching Python is listed here http://sis.ku.dk/kurser/viskursus.aspx?knr=130419 http://sis.ku.dk/kurser/viskursus.aspx?knr=130419
        • Tehnix 14y ago
          DTU (Technical University of Denmark) also has a Python course http://www.kurser.dtu.dk/02820.aspx?menulanguage=en http://www.kurser.dtu.dk/02820.aspx?menulanguage=en
      • Leszek 14y ago
        We're also introducing Python in the Cambridge CS course for computer vision practicals.
    • catwell 14y ago
      Some universities and engineering schools in France are teaching Python or using Python in some classes. The one I attended (Télécom Bretagne) does. Here is, for instance, a course about Sage and Python: http://formations.telecom-bretagne.eu/fad/course/view.php?id=23704 http://formations.telecom-bretagne.eu/fad/course/view.php?id... Here is a job offer by a research laboratory: http://fr.lolix.org/search/offre/offre.php?id=15660 http://fr.lolix.org/search/offre/offre.php?id=15660 The French Python association has a Web page with lots of job offers too: http://www.afpy.org/jobs http://www.afpy.org/jobs
  • tehwalrus 14y ago
    waiting for LibreOffice to download so I can wack things together for you. I am a UK developer/student. I'll be including: - screencap of my github profile (4 or 5 projects written in python) - 2 approaches from companies wanting to hire me (through LinkedIn) because I had "Python" listed on my profile - Academic references which use "Python" the programming language in a title or abstract. - evidence of my experience with Linux (i.e. that python is preinstalled in many many distributions), - evidence that I am writing the majority of my PhD code (I'll get you line counts) in Python. This makes me very very angry. If you have the address of the company or anything, I'd also like to write to them to tell them they're insane to try this - they're an embarrassment to the UK.
  • timruffles 14y ago
    EuroPython conference - Googling I get mentions back to 2001. I'm sure you could get in touch with the organisers for promo material etc http://mail.python.org/pipermail/europython/2001-November/000007.html http://mail.python.org/pipermail/europython/2001-November/00...
    • takluyver 14y ago
      If conferences are useful, there's also EuroSciPy and PyCon UK, where even the two letters Py unambiguously refer to the Python language.
  • belorn 14y ago
    Would not Google search, Wikipedia and Stackoverflow statistic be of some worth to show what the dominant usage of the word python is in the realm of software?
    • astrodust 14y ago
      This does need to be in relation to Python being used prior to the acquisition of python.co.uk, presumably, which means all of those are insufficient. The exception is Google's USENET cache.
  • keithpeter 14y ago
    Canonical is based in London UK. Ubuntu makes extensive use of python scripting (I believe Shuttleworth used Python for his original Thawte software). Perhaps they would be prepared to provide evidence statements if approached?
    • Torn 14y ago
      Mate of mine that works at Canonical on Ubuntu says they're aware of it (and are likely preparing evidence)
      • keithpeter 14y ago
        Excellent, I shall refrain from contacting the uk Ubuntu mailing list regulars in that case
  • candeira 14y ago
    I help run barrapunto.com, a Slasdhot clone in Spanish backed by a Spanish company. We have a Python topic that refers to the Python language. We lost some of our early content, but currently our first story on that topic is from October 2001: http://softlibre.barrapunto.com/article.pl?sid=01/10/20/098242 http://softlibre.barrapunto.com/article.pl?sid=01/10/20/0982... Using Archive.org, I can find a story about the release of Python 2.0 from October 2000: http://web.archive.org/web/20001214042200/http://barrapunto.com/softlibre/100/10/17/1456230.shtml http://web.archive.org/web/20001214042200/http://barrapunto.... This last one is shown on this front page with a different design: http://web.archive.org/web/20001018174909/http://barrapunto.com/ http://web.archive.org/web/20001018174909/http://barrapunto....
  • mhandley 14y ago
    Have you tried filing a dispute resolution claim with Nominet to revoke python.co.uk. Their policy is here: http://www.nominet.org.uk/disputes/when-use-drs/policy-and-procedure/drs-policy http://www.nominet.org.uk/disputes/when-use-drs/policy-and-p... You might have a case under 3c(ii). Edit: By the way, Nominet themselves use (or used) mailman, which uses Python: https://lists.nominet.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/nom-steer https://lists.nominet.org.uk/mailman/listinfo/nom-steer So you might have some sympathy there.
    • toyg 14y ago
      I suspect the only reason PoBox/Veber are now filing a trademark is to pre-empt a challenge on the domain. They are just domain squatters who got hold of python.co.uk and now see it as investment -- possibly one of their last chances at surviving, seeing how they're rumoured to be £ 300k in debt.
  • jively 14y ago
    We're a UK based company whose stack is almost completely built in Python - one official letter of support is winging its way to your lawyers as we speak.
  • laumars 14y ago
    Do the owners of python.co.uk not have to prove the legitimacy of their right to the name as well? I'm fairly sure that trademark law works on the principle that you have to be seen to defend your trademark in order for it to be considered your intellectual property (it's why you often see silly stories in the news about big companies chasing after trivial businesses then settling quietly out of court). As the other company has let "their" trademark fester for 13 years, I can't see how they have any legitimate legal claim.
    • laumars 14y ago
      Would someone care to address the faults in my comment rather than just voting me down? I asked a legitimate question.
      • hausen 14y ago
        The argument works both ways: if the PSF cannot assert a trademark on the name "Python," the owners of the python.co.uk domain shouldn't be able to take ownership of the name either. Why are they trying to do it right now?
        • laumars 14y ago
          Well that's partly my point. The owners of python.co.uk have waited 13 years to make a complaint about others using their trademark. And due to this, are arguably in a weak position to claim ownership of the trademark. So my question is this; are the owners of python.co.uk also being challenged to prove they've used their trademark? Are the owners of python.co.uk being challenged to prove that they've tried to enforce control over the trademark over the 13 years leading up to this case? If you want an example of what I mean, then check domain name trademark policy: http://wordpressfoundation.org/trademark-policy/ http://wordpressfoundation.org/trademark-policy/ > "All other WordPress-related businesses or projects can use the WordPress name and logo to refer to and explain their services, but they cannot use them as part of a product, project, service, domain, or company name and they cannot use them in any way that suggests an affiliation with or endorsement by the WordPress Foundation or the WordPress open source project. For example, a consulting company can describe its business as “123 Web Services, offering WordPress consulting for small businesses,” but cannot call its business “The WordPress Consulting Company.” Similarly, a business related to WordPress themes can describe itself as “XYZ Themes, the world’s best WordPress themes,” but cannot call itself “The WordPress Theme Portal.” > Similarly, it’s OK to use the WordPress or WordCamp logo as part of a page that describes your products or services, but it is not OK to use it as part of your company or product logo or branding itself. Under no circumstances is it permitted to use WordPress or WordCamp as part of a top-level domain name." The reason for this is quite simple, they've been seen to enforce their trademark so if there's ever any disputes, Wordpress are on strong legal ground. However python.co.uk owners have allowed the name -"their" trademark- to be borrowed and used globally. So it's now a grey issue as to whether the aforementioned still have a legal right to that trademark. So if I understand trademark law, then the PSF should also be challenging python.co.uk to prove that they've made any effort to enforce their trademark before now. I hope for PSF's sake that I am right here because that would put them in a much stronger position to win this dispute than just proving the widespread use of the term under their context alone.
  • INTPenis 14y ago
    I'm going to ask my manager if I can write a letter on behalf of us, we're in the TeliaSonera family of companies. But I also think you should hawk some merchandise. T-shirts with the snake, or the Python logo. This would even help your case if people around the world were wearing them or sending in photos wearing them.
• dinkumthinkum 14y ago
  It's sort of ironic and myopic for this little service to want to infringe or start an issue with the Python, or even the programming community at large. They do cloud hosting? So then I imagine a good portion of their business deals with developers? That's a pretty good tact, I wonder how that will work out for them. I wonder if they think they will get good publicity out of this.
  • clone1018 14y ago
    The best part about it is their servers probably come with Python preinstalled, I wouldn't be surprised if some of the devs/sysadmins script in python on the servers.
  • keithpeter 14y ago
    I just emailed them directly along the same lines. Not a flame, just a reasonable message with a link to this thread and a comment about possible negative public relations fallout. I've also suggested this as a story for The Register. Should generate more evidence and a good head of righteous indignation.
• anyfoo 14y ago
  Contact Google. I'd venture that the chances of support are not low. Not only do they have the mentality, they also had Guido van Rossum, python's inventor and head developer, employed for years. And they are certainly well-known 8)
  • chris_mahan 14y ago
    Guido moved to Dropbox recently.
    • anyfoo 14y ago
      I know, I used the past tense! But I doubt they dropped support for python overnight because he left %)
    • deleted 14y ago
      [deleted]
  • jdotjdot 14y ago
    Also Python is one of their primary languages in-house!
    • gamegoblin 14y ago
      To say that Python is one of google's main languages might be a bit of an overstatement. I think that they are mainly a C++/Go/Java shop and use Python for glue code, or so I have been told by employees. This could be wrong, though.
      • archangel_one 14y ago
        "Glue code" might be a little unfair, but it does tend to be much more used for internal tools than customer-facing code. I don't know official numbers, but I would think it'd still be still the #3 language after C++ and Java.
      • jayflux 14y ago
        It's not an overstatement, please watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKQS8EDG1P4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKQS8EDG1P4
• cube-drone 14y ago
  you can't why would I don't WHO IN THEIR RIGHT MIND WOULD TRY TO TAKE 'PYTHON' FROM PYTHON? I want to destroy them with internet rage.
  • timClicks 14y ago
    HN is not reddit. If it helps though, intellectual property disputes are resolved on the facts of specific cases, rather than headlines. Even a loss for the PSF May not be that bad, as there is likely to be a ruling that both marks could coexist, given Python's long heritage and no evidence on consumer confusion.
• grabeh 14y ago
  It should be stressed that usage of the mark must be shown to be of more than local significance to defeat the application from the UK company. Consequently it is vital that folks from as many EU countries as possible respond to the request in the post. I am surprised in some ways that you couldn't have attracted some pro bono assistance for this cause. This is a case that I would have loved to have drafted the opposition pleadings in relation to. Although I would hope that the media attention that should arise as a result of this application would be sufficient to cause the applicant to withdraw their application, or at the very least narrow down the specification to hosting services. Even if the specification was narrowed down, the likelihood of confusion is still high in my view. This is a good read on the criteria that will have to be satisfied: http://assets.itma.org.uk/OHIM_Oppositions_based_on_Unregistered_Rights_Handout_A.pdf http://assets.itma.org.uk/OHIM_Oppositions_based_on_Unregist... Finally, good luck!
  • VanL 14y ago
    Thanks for your words - and we would love to get your assistance and advice. Unfortunately, our network of Python-using lawyers is much thinner in Europe than in the US. Feel free to contact me!
    • grabeh 14y ago
      Sure thing - will send an email. Looks like K&S have got things fully under control at present (had a look at the OHIM filings) but happy to be a sounding board or provide whatever input I can.
• siscia 14y ago
  These kind of problems are so stupid that they should not even exist... Please start using your brain and don't try to trick other in so low issues... PS: We could send 1000 of email to that company just asking to stop the cause... We could make a PYTHON script to send this email ten times a day...
• avar 14y ago
  It's unclear from this whether or not Python would have to change the name of the programming language if they didn't get the trademark, or whether this UK company would just have the right to call their products "Python" too. Early in the article it says: "There is a company in the UK that is trying to trademark the use of the term "Python" for all software, services, servers... pretty much anything having to do with a computer.". And later it says, where the Python foundation is soliciting comments: "your view that another company using term Python to refer to services, software, and servers would be confusing". I for one hope the Python foundation doesn't get an exclusive trademark for all "software, services, servers" in the E.U. Outside of software "Python" is a well-known generic name for an animal, I don't think the EU should be protecting such generic names. But on the other hand it would also suck if this U.K. company gained exclusive use over the trademark.
  • oellegaard 14y ago
    Good point! I guess it would be fine as long as the UK company does not gain exclusive rights to Python, I don't think that would be possible with EU law though, I'm pretty sure you can't get a trademark for the name of an animal.
    • grabeh 14y ago
      You can trade mark any word provided it is not descriptive of the goods and services you want to apply it to, and that it is also distinctive. I could get the trade mark for python for software, but would be unlikely to get the mark for snake-keeping services, to give a rough example.
  • VanL 14y ago
    Our main point of contention is that they are claiming that the right to be the sole source of "Python" software, servers, and services. We have reached out to them to try to reach some accommodation (they can be "Python backup services," for example) but they are not willing to take us seriously.
    • ScottBurson 14y ago
• oellegaard 14y ago
  When I saw the design of that site, I thought it was a scam :-( Anyway, I'm a EU citizen, so I'll definitely contact them.
  • jacquesm 14y ago
    It is a scam. If they claim they are involved with software and computers they must know of python. Stuff like this does not happen by accident.
• DoubleCluster 14y ago
  I'm not worried, judges in Europe are usually quite reasonable. Ask the judge for the python.co.uk while you're at it. I love Python, best of luck!
• hartator 14y ago
  Oo, some companies are definitive assholes. I am in the US but I run a company in france that does software development, will try to mail you a letter.
• nonamegiven 14y ago
  Europe seems to see Python as the name of a computer langauge. CERN uses Python. https://duckduckgo.com/?q=cern+python https://duckduckgo.com/?q=cern+python They developed the PythonRoot package: http://alcaraz.home.cern.ch/alcaraz/PythonRoot/ http://alcaraz.home.cern.ch/alcaraz/PythonRoot/ It's probably of interest that this and many other Python packages have the word "Python" in the name of the package. I would hate to have to wonder whether PythonCoolPackage was for the Python language, or for interaction with some random company who chose Python as their trademark. I know that if something says Python today it's most likely to do with the language. The EuroPython Conference is certainly about the language. There are probably other European conferences where you can assume that Python means Python. https://duckduckgo.com/?q=epc2006+python https://duckduckgo.com/?q=epc2006+python (pdf) https://downloads.egenix.com/python/EPC2006-Developing-Unicode-aware-applications-in-Python.pdf https://downloads.egenix.com/python/EPC2006-Developing-Unico... https://duckduckgo.com/?q=python+conference+europe https://duckduckgo.com/?q=python+conference+europe Airbus is hiring. They want people with Python on their resume: http://www.airbus.com/work/experienced-candidates/opportunities-in-india/structures/ http://www.airbus.com/work/experienced-candidates/opportunit... I think Python means Python in Europe.
  • maigret 14y ago
    Yes, in Europe as well, I can confirm. In IT, Python is the programming language. On Google, even typed as a single word, it appears also on top of the search results beneath the animal.
    • jychang 14y ago
      It's above the animal for me.
      • psionski 14y ago
        Come on... who names an animal after a programming language? :D
      • laumars 14y ago
        Google's not an accurate gauge these days as it's results will be biased depending on who's performing the search. Google results are trailered to the user based on location, search habits and so on.
• pdknsk 14y ago
  This is mostly OT, but when browsing python.org for listed corporate sponsors, I noticed that some characters like ä or é are rendered as diamonds. This is because the page charset is utf-8, but the mentioned characters are encoded in iso-8859-1. http://python.org/psf/donations/ http://python.org/psf/donations/ Yeah, minor as can be, but IMO when someone donates they should've have spelled their name right. I'm reporting this here because someone who can fix this is most likely reading. PS. IMO there is not much reason to worry. Python has so many friends. Google should buy the company and close it.
  • yk 14y ago
    >PS. IMO there is not much reason to worry. Python has so many friends. Google should buy the company and close it. I think they should go to court. I somehow miss the SCO guy and his suitcase.
  • erre 14y ago
    > PS. IMO there is not much reason to worry. Python has so many friends. Google should buy the company and close it. And therefore make their attempted coup work, by giving them loads of money? Makes no sense. Better fight this, make them pay legal costs, and drive them back into insignificance.
• RossM 14y ago
  What stings a little more is that the webserver at python.co.uk is running Debian[1], which contains some version of Python by default (even in the minimal install). I hope our trademark office has the sense to reject this. [1]: http://builtwith.com/python.co.uk http://builtwith.com/python.co.uk
• adamt 14y ago
  I am from the UK and been programming in Python since before that domain was registered and happy to help. Am I missing something, if you go to Amazon.co.uk and search for "python" (not just in books, but a top level saerch) - (e.g. http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=Python http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%...) the top results are all books about the Python programming language published in the UK. Similarly search for "Python" on any Uk based jobs site http://jobsearch.monster.co.uk/jobs/?q=Python&cy=uk http://jobsearch.monster.co.uk/jobs/?q=Python&cy=uk http://www.technojobs.co.uk/search.phtml/Python/searchfield/location/radius/salary http://www.technojobs.co.uk/search.phtml/Python/searchfield/... (can provide many more such links if you need) There is no doubt about what Python means.
  • VanL 14y ago
    Thanks - this is a great thought. Our UK lawyers are going to be receiving a pretty decent Python library. :) Are there similar books in German, Italian, French, and Spanish?
    • cgh 14y ago
      Yes of course, go to amazon.de for example and search for "python".
    • zwp 14y ago
      Yes, lots. A quick sample below just based on searching amazon.{fr,it,es,de}. Good luck. French: Apprendre à programmer avec Python 3 (Learn to program with python 3) http://www.amazon.fr/Apprendre-%C3%A0-programmer-avec-Python/dp/2212134347/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1360874815&sr=1-1 http://www.amazon.fr/Apprendre-%C3%A0-programmer-avec-Python... Python - Les Fondamentaux du langage (Python: foundations of the language) http://www.amazon.fr/Python-fondamentaux-langage-Nouvelle-%C3%A9dition/dp/2746071711/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1360874778&sr=8-1 http://www.amazon.fr/Python-fondamentaux-langage-Nouvelle-%C... German: Python 3: Das umfassende Handbuch (Python 3: The Comprehensive Handbook) http://www.amazon.de/Python-umfassende-Handbuch-Galileo-Computing/dp/3836219255/ref=sr_1_fkmr1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1360873981&sr=8-2-fkmr1 http://www.amazon.de/Python-umfassende-Handbuch-Galileo-Comp... Python von Kopf bis Fuß (Python from Head to Toe) http://www.amazon.de/Python-von-Kopf-bis-Fu%C3%9F/dp/3897213184/ref=sr_1_fkmr1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1360873981&sr=8-3-fkmr1 http://www.amazon.de/Python-von-Kopf-bis-Fu%C3%9F/dp/3897213... Einstieg in Python (Starting python) http://www.amazon.de/Einstieg-Python-Programmieranf%C3%A4nger-geeignet-Computing/dp/3836217384/ref=sr_1_fkmr1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1360873981&sr=8-1-fkmr1 http://www.amazon.de/Einstieg-Python-Programmieranf%C3%A4nge... Spanish: Python para administración de sistemas Unix y Linux (Python for Unix and Linux System Administration) http://www.amazon.es/Python-administraci%C3%B3n-sistemas-Oreilly-Multimedia/dp/toc/8441525404 http://www.amazon.es/Python-administraci%C3%B3n-sistemas-Ore... Python 3 - al descubierto (Python 3 Discovered) http://www.amazon.es/Python-descubierto-Arturo-Fernandez-Montoro/dp/8493945048/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1360874429&sr=1-2 http://www.amazon.es/Python-descubierto-Arturo-Fernandez-Mon... Python. Guía de referencia (Python Reference Guide) http://www.amazon.es/Python-referencia-Oreilly-anaya-Multimedia/dp/8441523177/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1360874429&sr=1-3 http://www.amazon.es/Python-referencia-Oreilly-anaya-Multime... Italian: Programmazione in Python (Programming in Python) http://www.amazon.it/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1/276-0254377-1517700?__mk_it_IT=%C3%85M%C3%85Z%C3%95%C3%91&url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=python http://www.amazon.it/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1/276-0254377-1517700?... Imparare Python (Learn Python) http://www.amazon.it/Imparare-Python-Mark-Lutz/dp/8848125956/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1360874583&sr=8-3 http://www.amazon.it/Imparare-Python-Mark-Lutz/dp/8848125956...
• draegtun 14y ago
  Similar thing happened with the Perl trademark in Japan back in 2010 - http://blogs.perl.org/users/lestrrat/2011/09/perl-trademark-in-japan.html http://blogs.perl.org/users/lestrrat/2011/09/perl-trademark-... Fortunately it was resolved. Don't know if contacting someone at TPF or Japan Perl Association might be helpful here? TPF - http://www.perlfoundation.org http://www.perlfoundation.org JPA - http://japan.perlassociation.org http://japan.perlassociation.org Lestrrat (Daisuke Maki, author of the trademark blog post) contact details can be found on his MetaCPAN page - https://metacpan.org/author/DMAKI https://metacpan.org/author/DMAKI
• trhtrsh 14y ago
  Wow, this won't suffice? http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=python http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=python http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=python+software http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=python+software
  • rbanffy 14y ago
    I'd go with a date range like http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=python&hl=en&sa=X&ei=TUUdUeKtJajL0AHbjoCgBg&ved=0CCEQpwUoBg&source=lnt&tbs=cdr%3A1%2Ccd_min%3A1%2F1%2F2000%2Ccd_max%3A31%2F12%2F2000&tbm=#q=python&hl=en&tbo=d&tbs=cdr:1,cd_min:1/1/2000,cd_max:31/12/2000,sbd:1&source=lnt&sa=X&ei=e0UdUerOB6T00gG93oGYDg&ved=0CCUQpwUoAQ&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bvm=bv.42452523,d.dmQ&fp=27da8d583881e653&biw=1301&bih=682 http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=python&hl=en&sa=X&#...
    • fnordfnordfnord 14y ago
      I'll see your date range (I didn't know about that), and raise you "site:.uk" http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=python&hl=en&sa=X&ei=TUUdUeKtJajL0AHbjoCgBg&ved=0CCEQpwUoBg&source=lnt&tbs=cdr%3A1%2Ccd_min%3A1%2F1%2F2000%2Ccd_max%3A31%2F12%2F2000&tbm=#hl=en&tbo=d&tbs=cdr:1%2Ccd_min%3A1%2F1%2F2000%2Ccd_max%3A31%2F12%2F2000%2Csbd%3A1&sclient=psy-ab&q=python+site:.uk&oq=python+site:.uk&gs_l=serp.3...2669.6623.0.6880.9.8.0.1.1.0.134.577.7j1.8.0.les%3B..0.0...1c.1.3.psy-ab.diZor0_Ddww&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&fp=27da8d583881e653&biw=1592&bih=720 http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=python&hl=en&sa=X&#...
• karloskar 14y ago
  As a Saas provider within the recruitment business we have plenty of examples of where Python is used to categorize candidates proficient in Python. There is not a bit of ambiguity there.
• CD1212 14y ago
  Since anyfoo suggested contacting Google, it may be worthwhile contacting GCHQ [1] (they are the UK intelligence / code breaking agency). It is a very possible that they use Python internally. Since they are public sector rather than private sector it may not be of much help, but it is just an idea. Hope it helps! [1]: http://www.gchq.gov.uk/ http://www.gchq.gov.uk/
  • DanBC 14y ago
    GCHQ / CESG probably aren't going to say anything that's not in their published literature. Maybe one of the recruitment leaflets talks about Python, but the one I saw didn't mention it. (http://www.gchq-careers.co.uk/media/21423/gchq_technical.pdf http://www.gchq-careers.co.uk/media/21423/gchq_technical.pdf) > Facing some of the most complex challenges in the industry, our work ranges from small teams with each individual working the whole engineering lifecycle, through to £multi-million programmes staffed by specialist professionals cutting across industry, government and national boundaries. From Software Developers (primarily Java, JEE, C and C++), Database Developers (Oracle), Software Designers and Architects (with OO, UML) to Configuration Managers, Build and Integration Managers and more, the roles here are many and varied.
• anigbrowl 14y ago
  This is a prime example of why you have to vigorously police and defend a trade mark in order to reap the benefits from it. People complain when a large company does it to a small one, but if they don't they can easily find themselves in a situation like this.
  • craftman 14y ago
    It is the sad truth of the current trademark/patent system. I am currently creating my own product, and the very first thing I made was to create a new name, and claim the mark. It cost me some money, but not that much compared to the risk of being in trouble with trolls. The sad things is that by doing this, I am probably feeding the complexity of the system myself.
• malkarouri 14y ago
  I did an RHCE exam in 2003, in their place in Surrey (Guildford IIRC). I am pretty sure that Red Hat is a long time user and has been using Python to mean the language in their software and documentation in the UK a long time ago. Can you contact Red Hat or users of their software of exams for the last twenty years to confirm that? I imagine they would be happy to help.
  • VanL 14y ago
    Great idea - will do.
• Aardwolf 14y ago
  Does a domain name registration really have any correlation with the concept of trademarks? How did trademarks work before the Internet was there then?
• billforsternz 14y ago
  Why would an obscure IT company want the name Python ? Aren't they guaranteeing nobody will ever be able to locate them with a google search for example ?
  • busterarm 14y ago
    They're hoping to cash out in lawsuits.
    • keithpeter 14y ago
      psf ain't rich. UK courts don't like gold diggers especially. Could end badly for python-as-cloud-storage-company
  • keithpeter 14y ago
    Excellent point. I was searching just today for a good handout or resource for statistics students on how to organise numerical information into tables (the kind you make in word processors). I kept getting references to database design/programming. The old meaning of 'table' is shadowed in Google by the computer science meaning.
• mseebach 14y ago
  First there's Google. They are heavy on Python and has several offices in the EU. I think the original version of their crawler was written in Python. Academia: Cambridge has a Python course. I think Python as a teaching language has potential to go quite far back. Historical documents could be course catalogues, slides, handouts or even exams. Commercial training: Quick Googling brings up qa.com and learningtree.co.uk, both are in the UK and have Python training and (obviously) a commercial interest in the word retaining it's meaning. They might very well have old marketing material or invoices for Python training lying around.
  • Blahah 14y ago
    A few of the Cambridge Python courses: http://www.ucs.cam.ac.uk/docs/course-notes/unix-courses/PythonAB http://www.ucs.cam.ac.uk/docs/course-notes/unix-courses/Pyth... http://www.ucs.cam.ac.uk/docs/course-notes/unix-courses/PythonRE http://www.ucs.cam.ac.uk/docs/course-notes/unix-courses/Pyth... http://www.ucs.cam.ac.uk/docs/course-notes/unix-courses/PythonOS http://www.ucs.cam.ac.uk/docs/course-notes/unix-courses/Pyth... http://www.ucs.cam.ac.uk/docs/course-notes/unix-courses/NumericalPython http://www.ucs.cam.ac.uk/docs/course-notes/unix-courses/Nume... http://www.ucs.cam.ac.uk/docs/course-notes/unix-courses/pythonfortran http://www.ucs.cam.ac.uk/docs/course-notes/unix-courses/pyth... Since UCS at Cambridge have been teaching Python for a long time, you could request a statement of support from them: escience-support@ucs.cam.ac.uk
• DanBC 14y ago
  Concentrating on the other company: A Google search for [python hosting] doesn't even return them on the first page of hits; it returns a bunch of other companies offering hosting for python (the language) stuff or questions about hosting python (the language) based stuff. You offered them the limited "python cloud hosting" and they refused? Baffling. Good Luck.
  • 7952 14y ago
    Its probably a way of getting higher rank on "python cloud servers". Cloud servers is actually claimed as trademark by rackspace:)
• smortaz 14y ago
  I work at Microsoft on http://pytools.codeplex.com http://pytools.codeplex.com & https://www.windowsazure.com/en-us/develop/python https://www.windowsazure.com/en-us/develop/python. LMK what we can do to help by getting MSFT's legal team on this.
  • briancurtin 14y ago
    Shahrokh, great to see this. I'll pass it on and see what we can work out.
  • benmanns 14y ago
    You might see about http://www.python.co.uk/ http://www.python.co.uk/ using the Microsoft logo on their website. (Along with Dell, Cisco, NetApp, Juniper, and Raritan).
• deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
• amoxibos 14y ago
  Python - too big to fail...
• leke 14y ago
  In the spirit of programming languages, they should rename Python to P.
  • TazeTSchnitzel 14y ago
    >>> "C".encode("rot13") 'P'
• Raz0rblade 14y ago
  Python is from 1980 first public release 1998 So to a judge ask them the meaning of prior art. One cannt copyright what allready exists in the public domain, even if it was not copyrighted. You only need to proof you where earlier. Reminds me of apple-samsung and phone shapes, and then someone found an old startrek movie allready showing such devices.
  • pilgrim689 14y ago
    The judge would tell you that "prior art" is irrelevant here. This isn't about patents or copyrights. They are filing for a trademark...
    • pbhjpbhj 14y ago
      They've got the terminology wrong but _prior_use_ of the mark "python" in relation to software is indeed relevant.
• carlosedp 14y ago
  EVE-Online, a big MMO uses Python for it's servers and clients and they even contribute to Stackless Python source. They are in Iceland. Maybe you could try contacting them.
• takluyver 14y ago
  In case no-one's already thought of it: Raspberry Pi is based in the UK, and Python is the default 'educational language' on the boards, as per their FAQ.
• meaty 14y ago
  They don't have a company registered in the UK under Python. Register a company called Python Language Limited and shorten it to Python in correspondence. You can trade under that name, even if it's a trademark. The same as you can call yourself Fairy Limited and not sell washing up liquid.
• vespakoen 14y ago
  There is a button on their facebook page (http://www.facebook.com/PythonCloud http://www.facebook.com/PythonCloud) called "Suggest a change" (freely translated that from what I actually see in dutch, so it might be different), It's next to the little info link below their "avatar". What if we all suggest a unique name and they can pick a new one from something awesome one of us has suggested?
• amoxibos 14y ago
  If they mess with Python, anonymous should rape them.
  • amoxibos 14y ago
    Since their business all revolves around data, Anons shouldn't have too much trouble destructing their business to pieces.
    • keithpeter 14y ago
      I think we should use legal remedies here. Mob rule is not an appropriate way of resolving this, and I suspect that once the company realises how unpopular (radioactive?) this will be in PR terms they will reconsider. Also, EU trademark courts are sensibleish
• rebelnz 14y ago
  Can we help from outside the EU? Would it carry more weight to show that the entire worldwide development community recognises Python as referring to Python-the-language.
• martinced 14y ago
  What about people would start using original and easy to Google names for languages and APIs / frameworks / etc.? (I know Python predates Google but still). No more three-letters acronyms: PHP, APL, RPG, PL/I (ok, there a slash in addition to the three-letters but still). No more names that refer to someone who existed (either first name or last name or surname) or a common word: Pascal, Logo, Java, Go, Racket, Haskell... Pffft! Geez. You have to wonder how the people smart enough to write a language gaining sufficient traction can be so stupid at naming the language. Here, let's look at a car: oh, "Muffler". Now that's a great name for a programming language. Wait. "Horn" is good too. Common, let's name it "Wheel". Wait, no: "Steering". I'm so smart. Or let's go to the zoo and pick an animal? Or... You know what, use Google and try to find a name which isn't commonly used and which hence hasn't much chance of being widely used. And then it becomes your brand and trademark and intellectual property and what-not-I-am-not-lawyer-but-you-can-nitpick.
  • alanctgardner2 14y ago
    I get what you mean, but making names up is torture in most communication channels. The best example I can think of is Hadoop. Even though it's mostly spelled like it sounds, I've never seen anyone remember it right off the bat. Python, as an english word, sticks in your mind with the correct spelling. Unless you see if spelled out, Hadoop is kind of a fuzzy, nonsense word. I don't have any studies to cite, but that's my experience with technical and nontechnical people. Java is a easy to remember and usually not misheard, Hadoop is hard to remember initially. Don't even get me started on Sqoop.
• pbhjpbhj 14y ago
  >They blew us off and responded by filing the community trademark application claiming the exclusive right to use "Python" for software, servers, and web services - everywhere in Europe. // I'm not a TM lawyer by a long shot but this looks like a knee-jerk response to an entirely frivolous claim. Python lacks distinctiveness in the category covering software because it describes a long standing computer language and is moreover already associated with other companies, such as PSF. OHIM or whoever is assessing the application have to refuse the grant on this basis otherwise there would be a severe curtailment to the ability for practitioners in the field to describe basic and essential tools without confusion. To grant such a term as a trademark, an indicator that goods and services carrying the mark "python" originate with Veber/Pobox, would be an absolute travesty akin to granting someone a mark for Jeans or Denim in the relevant categories for clothing. It worries me slightly to see that this appeal has been made because it suggests a deficiency in legal counsel; unless the intention is to counter-sue. Trademark primacy can be established by long term use but holding a domain name with a mark in [particularly one like Python that is established as a {non-registered?} trade mark already, eg of PSF] doesn't demonstrate use of a trade mark for trade. Moreover as I understand the TM law in the UK/EC it should [according to statute] be impossible for anyone to register a trade mark from under you, that is you would still be able to continue your prior usage of the term. In this respect a RTM is somewhat like a patent, you can't prevent someone from continuing in their prior [public] usage. As a quibble grant of a registered trademark doesn't necessarily give exclusive rights for this very reason. On a side note, it seems they are also only applying for an image mark? That would make the claim that they're trying to prevent your use of the term Python wrong, they can only prevent you using their image or one confusingly like it as I understand it. FWIW the earliest CTM relevant Vienna class 9 application I could find was from an individual in Germany from 2002 (002567972) and that the use was for something to do with automobile tuning (see eg http://www.offroad-forum.de/viewtopic.php?t=11763&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=&sid=937b8c61dae77ba390013753044e7a6f http://www.offroad-forum.de/viewtopic.php?t=11763&start=...). PSF have an established use before that.
  • VanL 14y ago
    They are claiming the image mark, but the image is the word "Python" with only minimal embellishment. Further, they have added broader rights in private conversation.
• pbhjpbhj 14y ago
  There's at least a 1995 European patent application and ~500 others [listed on Google patents for Europe] up to 2009 mentioning python programming language. In 2009 there's EP2109040A2 which demonstrates a European usage of python by a skilled practitioner in the art specifically to designate the language stewarded by PSF .
  • hakre 14y ago
    The UK company didn't miss to exactly take the same international classes (009, 042) the PSF had choosen back in 2004 when they registered the PYTHON mark with the US copyright office. So that's more distinct than what others do, even if some of those two classes also collide with other trademark registrations for PYTHON.
• teh_klev 14y ago
  JetBrains might be able to help, their HQ is in the Czech Republic and they sell PyCharm an IDE for Python development: http://www.jetbrains.com/company/contacts/index.jsp#Local http://www.jetbrains.com/company/contacts/index.jsp#Local
• Niten 14y ago
  As a non-EU citizen (USA), is there anything that I can do to help?
• deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
• spajus 14y ago
  Those fing trolls are getting more insolent day by day. Hopefully they will get all the negative publicity to ruin their company after this.
• itrave 14y ago
  A well known Creative Commons spanish book published in 2008: http://mundogeek.net/tutorial-python/ http://mundogeek.net/tutorial-python/
• professorTuring 14y ago
  I have been developing in python in Spain (EU) since long ago and I can't see how a product called "Python", as in "I will buy the latest Python server" or "We have connected the radius to the Python Authentication Web Service" is going to confuse anyone. I can see how this issue bothers the PSF, but I don't think PSF can claim "python" name for every technical-related topic. I think a much better approach would be talking to them and agree a link on each other web, ie: Python.org says: "Were you looking python awesome servers? Click here" And Python.co.uk will say: "Were you looking for awesome python software development resources? Click here" Python (PSF) and Python (servers and web services) only have in common that are "technical related" but they are not competing with each other and I can't see a clear missunderstanding on this topic. But, this is my POV, and I might be wrong =)
  • MartinMcGirk 14y ago
    I happen to think that you are wrong. As someone who only started teaching himself the python language last week (but who has seen it around the web for a lot longer) I would naturally assume that "Python server" was some variation of the python language meant for web tasks. In the context of IT, the word "Python" for me refers unambiguously to the programming language, and any other uses of this word in the context of IT would be very confusing. I could not for instance create a programming language called "Google" and expect to get away with it...
    • professorTuring 14y ago
      I don't agree you. "Python server" won't never be a development kit name, maybe Python Server Development Kit (PSDK, which I'm about to register :P [just kidding]). Maybe two sysadmin talking each other will say "I'm going to start the python server" and if they have a Python Machine and a piece of python software who accomplish a task it will be a bit confusing. But I don't think that an user searching for information about python software development is going to get confused about this. I think this is quite close to the "iPhone" dispute in Brazil. Do you think that somebody searching for an Apple iPhone in Brazil is going to get confused with a Gradiente Eletronica SA gadget? The same thing is happening here. -- About your "google" suggestion, this is completely different. Google is not a common noun, it is "invented" and it has a rightful trademark. But I guess you can create a programming language called apple. Apple will try to dispute it, but you will certainly keep the apple name after the resolution. Again, this is my POV =)
• sycren 14y ago
  Perhaps you should bring up the Raspberry Pi as Python is its main language and it is being used in schools all over the UK and the government is helping to support the project.
• erre 14y ago
  It may be interesting to check archive.org for old job openings. For instance, this one at RIPE NCC, in Amsterdam, from 2006: http://web.archive.org/web/20070101144833/http://www.ripe.net/employment/posts/06_1221_001.html http://web.archive.org/web/20070101144833/http://www.ripe.ne...
• arianvanp 14y ago
  You should get in touch with the raspberry pi foundation. They're respected in the UK and they promote the use of python
• Yaggo 14y ago
  What an assholes. They are selling a service taking advantage of free software while simultaneous trying to steal from the whole community.
• kriro 14y ago
  How could anyone (that seems to be selling cloud servers) think this is a good business strategy. I really don't get how some people think about the software industry as a whole I suppose.
• vermontdevil 14y ago
  Seeing that Guido Van Rossum is Dutch and invented the language in Netherlands, has he said anything about this? Can't the university where Python was invented be contacted to help as well with any relevant information or documentation?
• inovica 14y ago
  Just checked on this today and python.co.uk is now pointing to python.org. Has this been resolved?
• gnotaras 14y ago
  Even if they finally manage to register the 'python' trademark, I guess their project will be so severely boycotted that it won't stand a chance of succeeding. I think they've just found a way to get advertisement for free and they will finally give up with the trademark claim, but that's just a wild guess. What I'd like to point out is that in many countries there is the concept of 'unregistered trademark': http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unregistered_trademark http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unregistered_trademark Quoting from the Wikipedia page: They may however benefit from protection due to other features of the law in relation to trademarks, such as protection for unregistered marks in the United Kingdom resulting from Passing off law. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passing_off http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passing_off Passing off is a common law tort which can be used to enforce unregistered trademark rights. I am not a lawyer and I cannot tell if the above applies to the current situation. I am just pointing it out just in case 'python' can be considered as an unregistered trademark (held by the Python Foundation) in the UK and thus get any benefits or protection from any local laws. My 2 cents